N62NA From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, RR: 3 Posted (5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8338 times:
A friend of mine has done a lot of travelling the past 2 months and I'm amazed (well, not really) at how many of the flights he has been on have been delayed. And some of these delays have been whoppers (i.e. sitting on the plane for over an hour waiting for a gate to become available, sitting on the plane for over an hour waiting for the fuel truck to show up, 3 hour waits for the incoming aircraft, etc.)
I'm just going by memory, and if anyone at AA on here can actually go in and check my "stats" here, please do!
Keep in mind, this is one person's travels on a very geographically diverse selection of flights, so we can't just say the delays were "due to bad weather in NYC because he just kept flying between MIA and NYC."
And one more thing... I'm not doing this to pick on AA... I'm sure the other USA airlines have similarly dismal perfomance.
05/16/2009 AA 671 MIA-DFW Delayed
05/16/2009 AA 1803 DFW-LAS Delayed
05/19/2009 AA 249 LAS-LAX On Time
05/21/2009 AA 1520 LAX-MIA On Time 05/22/2009 AA703 MIA-ORD Delayed
05/26/2009 AA1896 ORD-MIA Delayed
06/10/2009 AA 961 MIA-GRU Delayed
06/16/2009 AA 964 GRU-MIA On Time 06/19/2009 AA 1825 MIA-LAS Delayed
06/22/2009 AA 892 LAS-DFW Delayed
06/22/2009 AA 546 DFW-MIA Delayed
06/30/2009 AA 4462 MIA-CLT On Time 07/02/2009 AA 4385 CLT-MIA Delayed
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4216 posts, RR: 11 Reply 2, posted (5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8240 times:
Looks like most of those involve MIA in one way or another and the other two involve DFW, so you could say bad weather at either of those hubs could affect his travel as well as inbounds to MIA certainly do affect the outbound flights. That's just the way it is when you're involved with travelling out of or into a hub. The same would be true of the two DFW flights although I wouldn't bet on it being weather but just a late inbound from somewhere else.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
N62NA From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8175 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 2): Looks like most of those involve MIA in one way or another and the other two involve DFW, so you could say bad weather at either of those hubs could affect his travel as well as inbounds to MIA certainly do affect the outbound flights. That's just the way it is when you're involved with travelling out of or into a hub. The same would be true of the two DFW flights although I wouldn't bet on it being weather but just a late inbound from somewhere else.
FlyMIA From United States, joined Jun 2001, 3855 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8146 times:
Well I fly about once a month and most of my flights are on time or no more than 20 minutes delayed I fly AA a lot and into and out of MIA and DCA mostly. MIA during the summer has a lot of bad weather and with bad weather comes a lot of ground delays many of those flights where from and to MIA. It happens. Does someone want to look at the delays of flights in LHR? I am sure its pretty bad too. Also the US is the busiest airspace in the world what else is there to expect but to have some delays?
Quoting N62NA (Reply 3): None of the flights were wx....
How do you know this? MIA has about one thunderstorm a day and these thunderstorms can stop air traffic from coming in and out for 20min or maybe even more and stop ground personnel from working for even longer due to the risk of lighting just 30mins of thunderstorms can affect the airport and the airline for hours.
[Edited 2009-07-02 10:58:12]
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7333 posts, RR: 16 Reply 6, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8033 times:
Just because it's sunny in Miami and sunny in the destination city doesn't mean weather is not affecting those flights. The inbound flight could have been from a city that was having weather issues that caused the delay, or the plane could have been flying through a bad weather system, which will restrict flow through that area.
Max550 From United States, joined Nov 2007, 915 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8018 times:
MIA, DFW, and ORD are usually within the top 10 worst airports for delays (sometimes within the top 5) so I don't think that's the best sample, since all of the flights included at least one of them.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 5): I was on some of those flights. And I live in Miami.
But are you sure none of the delays were caused by weather earlier in the day? Just because a flight isn't directly affected by weather doesn't mean that it wasn't affected at some point in the day prior to your flight. Most of the flights were in the afternoon, so if there were weather delays earlier in the day you would still be affected.
N62NA From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7967 times:
Quoting Max550 (Reply 7): MIA, DFW, and ORD are usually within the top 10 worst airports for delays (sometimes within the top 5) so I don't think that's the best sample, since all of the flights included at least one of them.
Ummmm... Outside of a few routes (NYC-LAX, LAX-SFO for example), all AA flights start or end in a hub. And that's pretty much the way it is with CO, DL/NW, UA too.
Quoting Max550 (Reply 7): But are you sure none of the delays were caused by weather earlier in the day? Just because a flight isn't directly affected by weather doesn't mean that it wasn't affected at some point in the day prior to your flight
Well, none of my flights were affected by weather, but the plane may have been. Several of the delays were mx related too.
Which presents another problem. The aircraft are being so heavily utilized that a delay (for whatever reason) of a particular aircraft early in the day ends up affecting thousands of travellers booked on that same aircraft later in the day.
Look, I understand all the reasons why flights are delayed. I get it. What I'm trying to point out here is that the number of delays is completely unacceptable.
N62NA From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7912 times:
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 8): Out of my last 9 flights within Italia, 6 were delayed.
Of my last 6 US flights, only one was delayed.
We all have anecdotes.
You think these are anecdotes? I think that the intineraries presented cross such diverse geographical areas of the AA route network that this is a very good sample / cross section of what thousands of people are going through each day.
There was no major weather events happening during these times (i.e. hurricanes, blizzards, ice storms). There were no labor actions. The fleets of the airlines weren't grounded due to some FAA directive.
Everything was "normal" operationally.
It's incredible that this level of punctuality is accepted as "normal" these days.
FlyMIA From United States, joined Jun 2001, 3855 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7897 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 9): Which presents another problem. The aircraft are being so heavily utilized that a delay (for whatever reason) of a particular aircraft early in the day ends up affecting thousands of travelers booked on that same aircraft later in the day.
Well there is no other way to do it, they cant sit a plane on the ground all day it does not make any money sitting on the ground. (Besides for some long haul flights) or buy a plane for every flight right? That is bound to happen. Rather have that plane go tech than go on a plane that has a problem right.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 9): Look, I understand all the reasons why flights are delayed. I get it. What I'm trying to point out here is that the incidence of delays is completely unacceptable.
There are a lot of delays especially in Miami during the summer but there is not much anyone can do about. Its going to take time for the ATC to be upgraded, hopefully that's part of Obama's stimulus But there are no other options, take the bus? Drive? When delayed just sit back and enjoy the airport i guess that is what I try to do.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
AAAL From United States, joined Apr 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7881 times:
I have flown 60 flights on AA this year. I have never missed a connection and only 3 delayed flight. All out of MIA. MIA is really hard to operate out of. One was the TRAM, went out of service. Took forever for the airport authority to get buses to shuttle people to the higher E. The second one ,was the PA system was out of service and they did a on the ground GATE change. They didn't inform anyone, I only found out cause I checked in sabre and went to the gate and the agent were lost trying to find the people. The other of course A300 MECH delay.
Max550 From United States, joined Nov 2007, 915 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7820 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 9): Ummmm... Outside of a few routes (NYC-LAX, LAX-SFO for example), all AA flights start or end in a hub. And that's pretty much the way it is with CO, DL/NW, UA too.
That's definitely true, but when you fly from one of the most delayed airports in the country to another one of the most delayed airports in the country, your chances of being delayed are much higher than just beginning or ending at one of them.
I understand what you're saying, but the airlines don't have much of a choice. They can't afford to have a plane sitting on the ground to be ready to take over for a delayed plane. They also don't have much reason to do that, since passengers generally choose based on price, not on-time performance.
I think that delays like this aren't going to end until consumers either have another choice in how to get somewhere or decide that on-time performance is more important than price and frequency.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4216 posts, RR: 11 Reply 15, posted (5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7462 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 10): You think these are anecdotes? I think that the intineraries presented cross such diverse geographical areas of the AA route network that this is a very good sample / cross section of what thousands of people are going through each day.
There was no major weather events happening during these times (i.e. hurricanes, blizzards, ice storms). There were no labor actions. The fleets of the airlines weren't grounded due to some FAA directive.
Everything was "normal" operationally.
It's incredible that this level of punctuality is accepted as "normal" these days.
But you don't know that. You don't know what the reason was why the inbound flight was late....all you can see is the result. The reason for it happening could have been 3-4 flights back during the day, affecting several more flights, later.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Flighty From United States, joined Apr 2007, 4526 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7409 times:
I find threads like this sort of ridiculous. 2009 has not been a bad year for on-time arrivals so far as I am aware. Reduced flight counts and lower load factors are providing the most pleasant flying in years... IMHO.
N867DA From United States, joined May 2008, 790 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7386 times:
Sounds like someone has very bad luck. It's very unfortunate that so many of your flights got delayed, and I would definitely write the airline to tell them about your terrible luck and bad experience. But I have a bone to pick with you about your indictment of 'flying in the USA':
Complaints about horrible service, nickel-and-diming, draconian change fees, old seats, no PTVs, and things that are obviously specific to an airline or industry are warranted. But choosing a sample of a dozen flights and noting that many are delayed offers scant conclusive evidence that there is a systemic issue. This needs a statement like one of those CNN Polls: "Not a scientific survey."
N62NA From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7272 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 16): I find threads like this sort of ridiculous. 2009 has not been a bad year for on-time arrivals so far as I am aware. Reduced flight counts and lower load factors are providing the most pleasant flying in years... IMHO.
I just looked up the national stats Jan-Apr 2009. 79% on-time, all airlines, all airports.
Quoting N867DA (Reply 17): Sounds like someone has very bad luck. It's very unfortunate that so many of your flights got delayed, and I would definitely write the airline to tell them about your terrible luck and bad experience. But I have a bone to pick with you about your indictment of 'flying in the USA':
Maybe it's just me and my friend then. But I don't think so. Perhaps the routes that I/we fly are just chronically delayed. After all, we're not flying from PDX to Bend, Oregon all the time.
I wonder how that 79% on-time is being watered down by the small town to mid-sized city flights that probably have an excellent on-time record.
It would be interesting to get stats based on # of passengers that have been delayed, since a 763 loaded with pax from MIA-LAX delayed for 2 hours gets the same weighting as a Q400 flying PDX to Bend on time.
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3249 posts, RR: 8 Reply 20, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7129 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 9): Well, none of my flights were affected by weather, but the plane may have been. Several of the delays were mx related too.
N62NA - sorry I know it seems like I have been picking on you in various threads and that really is not my intention - but again I don't completely agree with your beef. OK, I guess I can understand that it sucks to be delayed, especially for weather that is occurring hundreds of miles away. But I don't think it is any worse of a problem now than it has been in recent years... in fact, you probably have to go back a very long way to say that it was any better.
There is always going to be weather and it will always interfere with commercial aviation. It is a fact that snow, heavy wind, and especially thunderstorms can really throw a wrench into any airline's best plans. Any major city and/or hub that is experiencing adverse weather is likely going to have delays and/or cancellations to deal with; these interrupted flights, of course, can affect lots of other flights all around the country because no airline has planes strategically situated to pick up all of the slack. It's economically unfeasible and a waste of resources.
As I recall, the summer of 2001 - the good ol' days prior to 9/11 - was among the worst, at least if you believe the press. Major airports were chronically experiencing delays due to weather and overcrowding. But you have to go back further to see when it likely started. Perhaps it began getting bad in the 1980s, a solid 5-10 years after deregulation when airlines had started to rapidly expand. Tack on the explosive growth of regional jets and LCCs in the 1990s and, yes, our larger airports are running with minimal wiggle room for any delays or issues.
My point is not to discuss the obvious. We all know airports are busy these days but as with the other thread I see an underlying blame of the airlines. I'm not sure that is completely fair. We all know that bad weather is inevitable, so I won't discuss that anymore. But airlines have to offer frequency and good timing of flights to be competitive, so while it is nice and simple to say AA could run 3-4 767s or 777s a day between NYC-MIA, the reality is that the traveling public generally wants increased options and would rather have 8-10 MD-80s, 737s, and 757s. Thus the airport is a more crowded place especially during peak times of the day... not too many people would be interested in a New York to Florida redeye! The result is that many airports - at least those at the hubs and at major cities that people actually want to fly to - can suffer delays. Delays on flight arrivals, delays getting clearance to takeoff, delays getting an open gate. I know it is frustrating but apparently the off-chance of being delayed is offset by having frequency and "options".
The final piece of the puzzle is the government, or at least the quasi-gov't agencies that run most airports. Take LGA, for example. It's slot controlled. AA has a bunch of slots and really has no interest in giving them up. It would rather fill these slots with ERJs to Florida than have to lose some of their control at the airport. There is no incentive for AA to fly larger equipment to LGA and reduce the number of slots that it uses. How about JetBlue at JFK? It has a brand new (and sorely needed) terminal. How do they pay for that? They need flights, lots of them - the Port Authority knows this too. JetBlue couldn't make any money running 2/3 the number of flights they currently do, despite the obvious effect this would have on cutting delays and cancellations during bad weather periods. And JetBlue can't exactly upgauge to larger equipment beyond the A320 without making huge changes to their business model and future plans. Do you blame JetBlue for this 'oversight'? I think their business model was based around what most customers want and what is viable.
I do think some aspects of the US airlines are a shambles, especially with some of the legacy majors. Years of suffering from lack of investments in new equipment and facilities has really taken its toll. Watching the transformation of the DL and NW brands has been fascinating; perhaps some have different adjectives. I think they are finally getting back on track by offering a competitive product that people want. I know that today's topic is delays at the airport and I don't think the delays that were pointed out by the OP in the opening post were typical of how airlines operate at all - these are bad, yes, but they are the exception not the rule. Some flights and airports are more prone to delays, yes, but that is not anything new.
I have always said that you can learn a lot about an airline by how they handle the worst experiences. Delays are a fact of life, no matter how unbelievable or disappointing (they are hardly confined to the US either). It's the airlines response to such delays and how they treat their customers during these times that tells me everything I need to know. In my humble opinion, most airlines in this country are no worse at handling these issues than they were 10-15 years ago. Maybe that's not setting the standard very high, but the halcyon days of the 1960s and 1970s are long over and are from a different era. Today is less about personal service and more about efficiency - yes, I said efficiency - even with an eye toward delays and service interruptions.
N62NA From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7062 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 20): N62NA - sorry I know it seems like I have been picking on you in various threads and that really is not my intention - but again I don't completely agree with your beef.
No offense taken - I find your posts very thoughtful, even though we seem to be in disagreement.
Quoting Richierich (Reply 20): But airlines have to offer frequency and good timing of flights to be competitive, so while it is nice and simple to say AA could run 3-4 767s or 777s a day between NYC-MIA, the reality is that the traveling public generally wants increased options and would rather have 8-10 MD-80s, 737s, and 757s.
I totally disagree. I think that what these heavily travelled markets need are widebodies flying 6x / day on these routes instead of narrowbodies at 10x / day. Because the way it is now, the 11:55am flight to MIA usually ends up leaving when the 1:30pm flight to MIA is scheduled to leave, and that flight leaves when the 3pm flight is scheduled to leave.....
Japan seems to have gotten this right, by flying widebodies domestically. Perhaps the USA airlines were about 30 years before their time in flying all those widebodies around domestically back in the 70s and 80s....
Quoting Richierich (Reply 20): not too many people would be interested in a New York to Florida redeye!
I think that would be a really good idea, actually. Price the daytime flights high, and offer some 9pm and 11pm departures at "Night Owl" rates and that would shift some of the traffic away from the peak times during the day.
Quoting Richierich (Reply 20): Take LGA, for example. It's slot controlled. AA has a bunch of slots and really has no interest in giving them up.
And we see how well slot control has solved the chronic delays at LGA....
You raise some nice points, and there are surely dilemmas: by giving the passengers what they want (high frequency of flights), you end up causing what they don't like (congestion delays).
Or, by B6 giving passengers what they want (low fares), they can't upguage without seriously altering who they are - so you're back to the congestion.
It's sort of like the tragedy of the commons - each airline does what's best for them, but in so doing, the overall effect is bad for each airline.
The solution is not simple. We have limited resources to spend and limited space to expand.
FlyingSicilian From United States, joined Mar 2009, 240 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6995 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 10): You think these are anecdotes? I think that the intineraries presented cross such diverse geographical areas of the AA route network that this is a very good sample / cross section of what thousands of people are going through each day.
Well to be honest yes I do (I don't mean to say that in harsh way, don't know any other way to type it ) but it is a valid discussion for a.netters.
I could (as could many here) post my list of itens over the last few weeks and come to a different conclusion, and I have flown between major city pairs on major airlines (including AA though mainly CO in the USA) all over the US and Europe with a total of ~30 segments over the last two months. I come to a different conclusion as other than one DL mech delay out of JFK, my US flights were all within 15 minutes of landing. My Euro flights were the complete opposite, but Italia being Italia I just plan for it and expect it.
I think your question is valid but to analyze at the factors that might cause it one must first pull the BTS data or hard numbers from a reliable source. Also, how late/delayed were the various flights. 15-20 mins or 1-2 hours. That makes a bit of a difference IMO.
N62NA From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6976 times:
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 23): Also, how late/delayed were the various flights. 15-20 mins or 1-2 hours. That makes a bit of a difference IMO.
With the exception of today's flight, I don't really remember the others in terms of length of delay, but I've put in my best guesses. If anyone at AA cares to check the system to fill in the gaps, please do!
05/16/2009 AA 671 MIA-DFW Delayed ??
05/16/2009 AA 1803 DFW-LAS Delayed > 1 hr
05/19/2009 AA 249 LAS-LAX On Time
05/21/2009 AA 1520 LAX-MIA On Time
05/22/2009 AA703 MIA-ORD Delayed ??
05/26/2009 AA1896 ORD-MIA Delayed ??
06/10/2009 AA 961 MIA-GRU Delayed ??
06/16/2009 AA 964 GRU-MIA On Time
06/19/2009 AA 1825 MIA-LAS Delayed 1 to 2 hrs
06/22/2009 AA 892 LAS-DFW Delayed ??
06/22/2009 AA 546 DFW-MIA Delayed > 1 hr
06/30/2009 AA 4462 MIA-CLT On Time
07/02/2009 AA 4385 CLT-MIA Delayed approx 1.5 hrs
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 23): I think your question is valid but to analyze at the factors that might cause it one must first pull the BTS data or hard numbers from a reliable source.
FlyingSicilian From United States, joined Mar 2009, 240 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6940 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 24): I did. Read reply #18 above.
Correct, you did; my fault for not being more clear, I meant looking at each airport's stats specifically. I believe a ranking comes out each quarter (I know it comes out yearly).
However, from my view, and maybe I am just jaded from always being airborne (even as a pilot myself), I can live with 4 out of 5 flights being on time. Would I like to see 95+%, sure, but with the current system I don't see that as realistic. I am pretty good at finding the right flights i.e. early morning, hub to hub, or with CO you can view the historic on-time data before purchase. It is no guarantee, but it works for me. As for AA planning and other specific stuff, I don't know, but you raise some good questions.
TSA delenda est, carpe imperium pro populus
26 Aviateur: Delays, yes. This is the fault of the airlines, who insist on scheduling more flights than the system (ATC and ground ops both) can handle. They are E
27 Xdlx: I am sorry about your experience, and the fact there is not another large airline providing you options out of So. Florida. AA is not The ontime mach
28 ExFATboy: One thing I'd say in response to the "frequency" argument is this: right now at severely congested airports, everyone pays the price for the airport
29 Richierich: Again, it sounds great on paper and it would certainly build in some buffers to account for delays, etc., but it is not what the travelling public wa
30 DL Widget Head: I don't think you can fully appreciate what it takes to run an airline unless you have a good deal of experience with airline operations (but judging
31 Tharanga: First, this has been one of the better discussions I've seen here. Thank you to all those involved. So, what do we do? How much will NextGen ATC help
32 RiddlePilot215: Have you ever considered that maybe...just maybe...it's the airline you're flying and the airport(s) you're flying from? Many times it's a volume iss
33 Ikramerica: You should retitled the thread: The Dismal State of AA at MIA But then, it wouldn't be anything new. It's been that way for at least the 18 years I've
34 DFWEagle: This is a very good post, though I don't entirely agree with something you said-: Remember, there are actually two types of slots at LGA – air carr
35 Moman: I've flown 44 flights in the past 4 months on AA, primarily through the DFW and MIA hubs. I've been delayed on 7 of them, with 5 of those due to weath
36 BAW716: OK.. how many of those delays were NOT weather related? Unfortunately for us here in the USA, with respect to weather and air traffic, we have really
37 N62NA: And ATC delays, from my experience, are usually caused by congestion in the northeast USA, i.e. too many flights scheduled than the airspace and airp
38 Phollingsworth: Ah the blame the RJ game. The fact of the matter is it is not explicitly the fault of the airlines, but the fault of the air traffic market. The way
39 Offloaded: I had 3 US domestic flights last month: BOS BWI on FL, BWI DTW BWI on NW. I had a short connex in BWI and the BWI DTW BWI was purely a roundtrip to ri
40 N62NA: That's interesting. Just how is it most profitable for an airline to have a 65% to 80% on-time record?
41 Phollingsworth: It is all a function of how costs and revenues scale with respect to the on time percentage. Even if you remove weather from the equation (which only
42 N62NA: Very good explanation... and horrifying to a mere member of the travelling public such as myself!
43 Lufthansa411: One of the bigger problems in terms of demand for earlier flights has to do with simple geography. Take Europe. Most a/c from the US leave in the eve
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From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1809 posts, 
But there are no other options, take the bus? Drive? When delayed just sit back and enjoy the airport i guess that is what I try to do.
) but it is a valid discussion for a.netters.
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