"United’s proposal would effectively end many agents ability to sell space on the airline."
"Under United’s new policy, affected agencies would be required to process all United sales as cash transactions, being left to collect the ticket price from clients on their own, either by cash, check, or by charging a credit card to their own merchant account. This works out well for United...Implementing the program on a larger scale would increase liquidity by increasing the amount of cash the carrier receives from future ticket sales, which in turn helps to preserve liquidity. "
Bone headed decision or brilliant? Are the inmates running the assylum or is UA way out in front on this issue? Once again, UA is willing to challenge some norms as they tried about a year ago with their idea to charge for food on international flights. They had to back down from that ill-conceived policy. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. The idea seems great from an airline's bean counter perspective but could backfire by sending corporate travel agencies looking for other "credit card restriction friendly" airlines with whom to do business. Obviously, most of those corporate agencies are booking highly desirable business travelers. Can UA afford to lose any of these high dollar flyers? In the end, I think this idea will be rescinded too as I can't see any of the other majors matching this policy in the present, dismal revenue climate.
1 LAXintl: Not a bad idea. Let the travel agents cover the credit card transaction processing fees instead of the airline. In other words the airline gets to rec
2 Apodino: I can't blame them. If you think about it. Travel agents, and to a much greater extent, sites like Travelocity, Priceline, and Expedia, are largely re
3 F9fan: Well, now we know why a lot of travel agents are now specializing in "all inclusive" resorts, cruises, and package deals.
4 LAXdude1023: Its realitively simple. If UA is the only one doing this, agents will simply put customers on other carriers unless the price is low enough to cover i
5 United1: The majority of travel agents that UA has started passing this cost along to were ones who didn't do much business with UA in the first place.
6 LAXdude1023: To my knowledge, most agencies use a prefered system. Meaning they have prefered airlines (airlines that give them commission, waivers, and nett cont
7 RiddlePilot215: I'm gonna have to go with United on this one...It just makes good business sense. Why sell tickets through a middleman you have to "share" the money w
8 Mariner: I know how to do all that and if it is just a simple journey - there and back - I might do it. But if it is anything more complex, a multi-leg itiner
9 ZKEYE: I couldn't agree more. Added to that when I use a travel agent if there is a problem of some sort I always just drop it in their lap to sort out (wit
10 AirFRNT: Bear in mind, there may be one more reason United is doing this. United might be trying to avoid a Frontier style meltdown when it's credit card proce
11 WorldTraveler: bingo. and don't think for a minute that UA isn't testing the waters to see how far the idea can be pushed.... and alot of other airlines and other m
12 USPIT10L: I remember reading about "screen bias" back in the '80s from airlines like UA and AA, where they would have their flights first in the availability s
13 Offloaded: Funny thing is people seem to forget that travel agents only got paid when they sold a ticket. They were the airline's sales force, so on reflection,
14 LAXintl: No has nothing to do with such. Most airlines including United already have various holdbacks. This exercise was designed to shift away the cost of b
15 Luv2cattlecall: ...One of the biggest travel search sites was founded by none other than a consortium consisting of CO, DL, NW, UA, and AA... it's their own problem.
16 USPIT10L: My apologies. Too late to edit the post! I don't mind planning a trip through an agency, but I don't book through them. That was the crux of my post.
17 Jmbweeboy: The above post is the first one which understands what is going on here. While one might think United corporate attorneys have ok'd this, consider th
18 United1: While I can certainly understand your point and I understand how you came to your conclusion you need to realize that this only effects an extremely
19 Jmbweeboy: There is no doubting the "trial baloon" affects a small amount of tickets currently but one would be quite naive to not realize this is United's wish
20 United1: Oh absolutely this is a trial to see how it goes but doing this to effect the credit card hold back? The amount of money UA has to keep on hand due t
21 AirNZ: Are they? Many of the self-appointed experts on a.net can't even find their way around Fare Rules & Regulations (but insist they are correct!), so ho
22 Qblue: USPIT10L Shame on you. You use travel agency to get infromation, use their brain and time without booking with them. They do not get paid to do that,
23 Danild: I agree! It's very simple they are trying to make the Travel Agents pay for their costs, which at least in my Agency is not going to happen. I will j
24 UAL777: Highly doubt it. They are trying it with agencies that do little business with UA as it is. Its just another creative way to try and cut costs.
25 Mariner: Each to their own. But my travel agent in Los Angeles has always been able to get me first class for the price of business on almost all my internati
26 Viscount724: Many people can't justify the time to compare fares on numerous airlines before booking. That is much easier if you have access to a major GDS system
27 UAL747DEN: Many people on here are confused about what we are doing and why so let me try to clarify things. The current way United deals with ticket sales at mo
28 Pellegrine: If I'm not mistaken the CC company is going to withhold payment to United, and all other airlines, until the date of flight anyway. But I can underst
29 UAL747DEN: A percentage is held but using this method after travel is complete the funds will be available just like any other transaction therefore mitigating
30 ORDagent: Travel agencies still have a vital part of the industry particularly when it comes to the corporate travel management side. An agent can massage the p
31 JMBWEEBOY: Full of erroneous statements in the above. First, the agent reports his sale of a United ticket through the Airline Reporting Corporation. That sale
32 USPIT10L: That's why you pay a yearly fee to AAA, so you can get road maps and TourBooks for free. Otherwise, I do most, if not all, my travel planning via the
33 TBYO787: This is just a clear indication of an Airlines preparing for chapter 7. Thanks God we dont sell UA at all. No commission, no sell. Good Luck UA.
34 Ikramerica: Except, they aren't allowed to do so. The credit card contracts within the USA forbid the companies from passing on credit card fees to customers. Wh
35 UAL777: A preparation for chapter 7? Come on! It is nothing of the sort.
36 United1: Not at all, have no idea how you came to that conclusion. All this is is UA trying something different, if it works expect others to follow.....
37 FlyASAGuy2005: I see most are saying for now, this will only affect a very small percentage of actual ticket sales through travel agencies. Others are saying the lar
38 LAXdude1023: No no, I mean they have prefered airlines. Some agencies have UA as a prefered, some have DL or AA or CO, etc. This strategy has agents pushing one c
39 FlyASAGuy2005: I've been to many countries and it seemed to me like travel agencies over there were like 7-11s in Virginia Beach; one on just about every corner . Bu
40 JMBWEEBOY: That's the same thing they said at Pan Am, remember ?
41 USPIT10L: Sometimes the two go hand in hand. If you're using Sabre, chances are, an airline that uses it is your primary business. In Pittsburgh, most of the o
42 DLDTW1962: As a Travel agency owner as well as an agent. I'm sitting here about to explode. The airlines are not paying any commissions to agents at all. Even th
43 UAL777: I checked the websites of ASTA, The Association of Canadian Travel Agents, Association of International Travel Agents, and the International Airlines
44 USPIT10L: I agree wholeheartedly. So much for selling Star Alliance at your office. UA continues to shoot itself in the foot with every decision they make. Jus
45 UAL777: That would be a good thing as then they might actually be consistantly profitable!
46 UAL747DEN: Travel agents have been threatening to not sell different airlines' tickets for years, so far it has yet to happen. Travel agents trying to throw the
47 LAXdude1023: Its a two way street. TA's give the airlines lots of business at no cost to the airline.
48 UAL747DEN: Really? You think that if the people didn't go to the travel agent they wouldn't fly? How many people really go to a travel agent that are going to u
49 AirNZ: You're talking complete unadulterated BS, and the sad thing is you don't even realize it in your rush to think you do know. Two examples: Which one i
50 United1: Does anyone happen to know what percentage of UAs sales are done through a TA
51 UAL747DEN: There you go again trying to make you point by only quoting a small part of the post and trying to twist words around to make them work in your favor
LAXdude1023 From United States, joined Sep 2006, 4378 posts, RR: 22 Reply 52, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3162 times:
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 51): If this is true why is it that the airlines don't pay the TA's a single penny to sell their tickets. If the airlines really needed the travel agents they would pay them!
These will be my last comments to you since you obviously are absolutely clueless to how the airline/agency relationship works.
Different airlines pay different agencies differently. Almost all airlines pay agencies a commission either through a wholesaler or directly. Especially if they have a prefered relationship with the carrier. UA for example pays as much as 12% to certain agencies to certain areas of the world. UA also gives alot of nett rates to wholesalers to Asia and Europe. So UA DOES pay agencies to sell their tickets. Almost all airlines do (everyone of the legacies do).
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 48): Really? You think that if the people didn't go to the travel agent they wouldn't fly?
I said nothing of the sort and you are taking it way out of context. Agencies are a tool in which the airline gets business. They are not the only tool. But the agency brings the airline business, not the other way around.
ORDagent From United States, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1 Reply 53, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2882 times:
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 46): There are a lot of large agencies out there that work with the airlines everyday that would never think of telling an airline that they are going to not sell their service. These are also the agencies that still get incentives from the airlines and are actually valued by the airlines.
BS! I worked as a travel agent for more than 15 years at one of the worlds largest travel management corporations. UA decided to pull some pricing stunts on contract renewals for or mutual clients. WELL. We launched a NO WAY UA campaign across N. America. We even had prizes for the accounts with the deepest drop in UA plated tickets. Three months later UA came back hat in hand. So the retail channels do affect the airlines and agencies do still have some pull.
Tariff (pricing) is set by the airlines. I don't pull a price out of my ear for a ticket. If I did that UA would pull my plates in a New York Heartbeat. With the increasing automation in the industry agencies have little sway on pricing beyond corporate contracts. The days of "creative" ticketing are long over unfortunately. Audits are now 100% automatic and 100% of the time. Don't blame agencies for pricing issues. Agents sell them.
EA CO AS From United States, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 9889 posts, RR: 73 Reply 54, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2726 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 47): TA's give the airlines lots of business at no cost to the airline.
That's not entirely accurate. TA's actually can (and do!) cost airlines millions every year thanks to things like inventory churning, making speculative bookings, and so on. Why do you think companies like Airline Automation Inc. can market things like the "Predator" engine that cancels bookings that haven't been ticketed and the "Super Dupe Snooper" that seeks out and cancels dupe bookings from agencies?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
ORDagent From United States, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1 Reply 55, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 54): Why do you think companies like Airline Automation Inc. can market things like the "Predator" engine that cancels bookings that haven't been ticketed and the "Super Dupe Snooper" that seeks out and cancels dupe bookings from agencies?
Indeed these programs keep the agencies "honest". However these programs have cancelled reservations that are legit as they are part of an international itinerary that has a longer ticket time limit than a domestic fare or a government fare that has no time limit.
What airline was the first one to use automation like this? UA! However everybody does this now. The airlines have the right to maintain the integrity of their inventory.
Panova98 From United States, joined Apr 2008, 212 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2519 times:
Good Monday morning to you all. Hope you airline and travel agent people haven't all exploded over the 4th of July weekend reading all this.
Sorry I can't add much that hasn't already been said about principal/agency relationships. And, this is not all that different from what has been going on for years. But...
As neither an airline nor travel agent person, rather, simply a traveler, paying for all my own tickets, this mumbo-jumbo stuff is entertaining, but really superfluous. What makes me explode is how idiotic the airlines, however they sell their products, construct fare structures and complicate air fare prices that I have to pay and thus make the ticket purchasing process unnecessarily difficult
It should be verry easy for those of us with time on our hands to go on the computer and buy a ticket, regardless how involved the itineray is, and not be make as fools once we find out how much we have been taken. If we don't have the time, we should be able to go to the provider, or its agent and have our needs satisfied, without some added fee, The cost of selling the ticket should be a normal part of the ticket price, like fuel, labor, landing fees, whatever. If we want the provider, or its agent to provide some type of service over and above simply selling a ticket, like giving some service having nothing to do with providing the travel, or something like special credit privileges, of course, we should expect to pay a fee.
Why airlines think they have to have agents is none of my business. How they deal with agents is nice to know, but the bigger issue is the difficulty of the process of buying tickets, due in major part to pricing complexity. It is the number one reason why I simply decide not to fly. How airlines treat their agents is not really all that important to me. Granted, I'm not a travel agent, but once the customer loses confidence in the whole purchasing process, this industry is in worse shape than it might think.
Phollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 9 Reply 57, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2457 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11): Interestinly, in some parts of the world and even in some parts of the US economy, credit card transactions are preferred because they are safe and better than cash.
Or in the case of some retailers actually cheaper than cash transactions, take Costco's branding with Amex or Target, which has their own bank. People underestimate the cost of handling cash, which requires a lot of touch labor.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34): Except, they aren't allowed to do so. The credit card contracts within the USA forbid the companies from passing on credit card fees to customers. Whether it's in the form of a "cash discount" or a "credit card surcharge" if they got caught doing this, the credit card companies would pull their contract and UA would be stuck without the ability to take credit cards.
US law and all credit card policies prohibit a surcharge; however, many allow a cash discount. In fact, most of the restrictions on cash discounts have to do with how they are advertised. It is basically impossible to prevent a retailer from providing a POS discount, but you can go after advertisements. The interesting thing is retailers pay different commission rates depending on not just the brand of card, but the type of card. Someone has to pay for all of those cash back and loyalty programs.
Quoting DLDTW1962 (Reply 42): ith ASTA, The Canadian Travel Agents Assoc, and International Travel Agents Assoc. as well as package tour companies all banding together. We are committed NOT to sell any UA products. If UA gets its way.
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 43): I checked the websites of ASTA, The Association of Canadian Travel Agents, Association of International Travel Agents, and the International Airlines Travel Agent Network for news regarding this "commitment to not sell any UA products" and could not find ANYTHING. With the exception of the ACTA condemning the move (while still selling UA products) not one other website had a public press release regarding this. Not one.
If the ASTA does anything they will not be dumb enough to put it in writing and on the internet. Any collective action, from what is a trade group of independent contractors is liable to fall foul of US anti-trust rules. In fact DLDTW1962 is not very bright about announcing it, you don't want this info being too public.
EA CO AS From United States, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 9889 posts, RR: 73 Reply 58, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2333 times:
Quoting ORDagent (Reply 55): However these programs have cancelled reservations that are legit as they are part of an international itinerary that has a longer ticket time limit than a domestic fare or a government fare that has no time limit.
True, however the agency can simply call the airline to have them take steps to keep those programs from cancelling the PNRs in question. Most agencies simply don't bother.
And of course I'd argue that for every one legit booking that was cancelled by the program in error there were 100 cancelled bookings that were not legit. I'd take that any day.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18407 posts, RR: 60 Reply 59, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2323 times:
Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 57): US law and all credit card policies prohibit a surcharge; however, many allow a cash discount. In fact, most of the restrictions on cash discounts have to do with how they are advertised. It is basically impossible to prevent a retailer from providing a POS discount, but you can go after advertisements. The interesting thing is retailers pay different commission rates depending on not just the brand of card, but the type of card. Someone has to pay for all of those cash back and loyalty programs.
Yes, i should have made that more clear. You can't advertise a different price between cash and credit, and you can't charge extra to use credit. This is why UA and other big companies with broad sales channels, web presences, etc. can't "pass on the cost of a credit card to the consumer" or some such tactic.
But of course, what a clerk or store owner decides to do between you and he at the cash register can't be tracked by anyone but the IRS, and then only in a detailed audit.
As for the type of card, most retailers don't even understand the truth behind what you say. Those that refuse to take Amex because of the extra cost aren't even aware that almost every MC and Visa they take has roughly the same charge to them, because "rewards/perks" cards are treated like business credit cards by the card handling company, and business cards have about the same charges to the vendor as do Amex. I only learned it because my sister's tennis school takes credit cards and she pointed this out to me. It's amazing how few store owners read the fine print in their contracts!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
FWAERJ From United States, joined Jun 2006, 785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 60, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2281 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 59): As for the type of card, most retailers don't even understand the truth behind what you say. Those that refuse to take Amex because of the extra cost aren't even aware that almost every MC and Visa they take has roughly the same charge to them, because "rewards/perks" cards are treated like business credit cards by the card handling company, and business cards have about the same charges to the vendor as do Amex. I only learned it because my sister's tennis school takes credit cards and she pointed this out to me. It's amazing how few store owners read the fine print in their contracts!
So true about not reading fine print. In fact, some of the new Visa Signature Preferred/World Elite MasterCard cards such as the Saks Fifth Avenue MasterCard (issued by HSBC) actually have slightly higher merchant fees than American Express.
Also, I've had to report several store owners to Visa and MasterCard because they required minimum purchases, which are illegal under Visa, MasterCard, and Discover Network rules (and also American Express rules if you also accept Visa/MC and/or Discover, to prevent card discrimination). I've never seen a US merchant that required a surcharge for credit, though... if I did, I wouldn't buy from them, and I would report them.
As for UA: I wasn't aware that airlines still paid the card merchant fees. But if I were a travel agent, I would steer my customers to other airlines whenever possible because that extra 2-3% that my Visa/MC/Discover processor or AmEx will charge would either wipe out a travel agent's thin profit margins or make a UA ticket uncompetitve in price. It's the old catch-22: raise your price or crush your margins.
Let the travel agents cover the credit card transaction processing fees instead of the airline. In other words the airline gets to recover $100 of $100 of revenue instead of giving 2-4% away to credit card companies. It cost United $710 million last year in such charges.
Yes, but that is just part of doing business.....It sounds like a lot, $710 Million but how much did they make on Baggage fees? How much do they give away in lost revenue in the way of DBC vouchers because they choose to overbook flights by massive percentages?
Quoting United1 (Reply 5): The majority of travel agents that UA has started passing this cost along to were ones who didn't do much business with UA in the first place.
This is NOT true, it can be any travel agency big or small. Smaller agencies that dont give UAL much business, would not be costing UAL the big bucks that a Mega Agency would, that does large volumes of business with UAL..... So you do the math...
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6): To my knowledge, most agencies use a prefered system. Meaning they have prefered airlines (airlines that give them commission, waivers, and nett contracts). As long as UA doesnt alienate them, theyll probably be fine. I know quite a few agencies have UA as a prefered.
Not so much anymore...Youd have to be in a United area where a majority of ticketing is on UAL.....And yes, it would be very bad for UAL to take a dump on their best supporting agencies.
Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 7): I'm gonna have to go with United on this one...It just makes good business sense.
Remember this when other businesses that you frequent decide to cut credit card fees from their bottum line and make you pay cash for everything. There is nothing that is stopping ANY credit card merchant from doing the same....
Why sell tickets through a middleman you have to "share" the money with, when you can just do it your own damn self?
Actually the Travel Agency comission cuts of 1996 and elimination of all comissions in 2002 kind of put the airlines (or so they thought) in a better position because they didnt have to pay WE Travel Agents anymore. It might have given them a short term savings, but it hurt them more than it helped them. ....Its just a fact of life and there are certain costs that must be paid by airlines to do normal business. Perhaps UAL should take get a clue from Allegiant and eliminate their toll free phone numbers..That might save them millions too!!!! If you want the privilage of accepting credit cards for your clients convenience, you eat that cost.
This isn't the 1970s, most people are competent enough to know how to use a personal computer- open up a web browser, go to united.com, search for flights, and buy a ticket...
You would like to "think" that most people are competent enuff to use a PC, that is if they have them...Not everyone is a computer nerd/pseudo travel agent like yourself.
Part of the reason the airlines are in such deep doo-doo is because of the DIY websites that they make available..They cant control their pricing.
Quoting Offloaded (Reply 13): Funny thing is people seem to forget that travel agents only got paid when they sold a ticket. They were the airline's sales force, so on reflection, how much money have airlines saved by cutting off travel agents? Like airline baggage charges. Did you notice your ticket price drop by 7% when your airline stopped paying TA commissions? I didn't. Did your airline discount you $15 because you aren't taking a bag? Of course not, they just added it.
The airlines have saved zippo since DELTA started the comission cuts in 1996. If this was the case, there would be no airline in trouble. Thru agencies, they were better able to charge realistic airfares and if you wanted to go, you paid. None of this "Pricelining" your fares to haggle for the cheapest seats....Sure its nice to not have to payuan arm and a leg to fly someplace, but then when you look at the costs involved in operating ONE airplane on a single flight, you cant make ANY money filling a $45 Million airplane with $79 airfares.
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 21): Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 7):
This isn't the 1970s, most people are competent enough to know how to use a personal computer- open up a web browser, go to united.com, search for flights, and buy a ticket...
Are they? Many of the self-appointed experts on a.net can't even find their way around Fare Rules & Regulations (but insist they are correct!), so how do you expect the general public to do it, noting how often they are referred to on here as 'having no clue'. Sure, an nice, simple A to B seems relatively easy, but give me a complex itinerary and we'll see how many can book it. Remember, a complex booking [i]cannot[/]i be done on the likes of Expedia, Travelocity, Orbit, or any airline's own website. You're not taking into account such issues as Triangulation Fares, or manual fare calculation, combinability etc., etc.
Finally someone with a voice that knows what the heck they are talking about.....Thank you!!
Shame on you. You use travel agency to get infromation, use their brain and time without booking with them. They do not get paid to do that, they make their money by booking. You waste their time and talent then walk away to book it yourself. Please leave them alone so they can make time for other customers that they can make money on. United is first and if no big backlash others will follow.
Yes shame on him......
I recently had a call from a lady asking me at our agency about AMTRAK. She asked me for the toll free number. I mistakenly but quickly gave her the number, but then asked her if there was anything I could help her with....Her reply: "No, I'll just call them myself and get my own tickets...Could you please repeat that phone number again?" Quickly thinking, I said to her, "Im sorry, you will have to get that phone number yourself..." Her reaction to me was: "Well, youre not a good Travel Agent...." I in turn told her: "Well you're not a good client." Click she hung up.....She actually had the gall to have her boyfriend call right back and ask for the same information from my co-worker....My co-worker simply told him, "You can find the number for AMTRAK with Directory Assistance.....
Yes, the supposed know it all's love to call and pick our brains and then go do it themselves...Its kinda funny when that happens, and they come back to us and tell us of all their problems and how they should have let us book them.....
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 15): Except they weren't "sharing" money with anyone in this case. If a pax books a ticket through UA directly, the airline eats the credit card processing fee. The current system with travel agents works exactly like that as well... UA doesn't get any more or any less on a $100 ticket when it's booked through a travel agency, since they don't pay a commission. Travel agents recoup that money with their fees to clients. UA is basically getting grabby and telling the travel agencies to eat the credit card processing costs, whicih I'm sure will cause a drop in bookings from affected agencies.
This will also cause problems for pax, since they'll no longer get automatic insurance coverage, etc from their CC company, nor will they get their bonus miles for using their card, since the payment is made out to Joe's ticket Shoppee....
This is exaclty it!!!!!!!!! Actually at a recent meeting, AA and DL CEOs were putting their heads together in trying to come up with a plan to make Travel Agents pay for the "privilage" of booking their flights.
The only way that an agency has to get around this silliness is to book all the tickets directly with UAL.com for their clients. However, guess what? UAL will still get hit with those fees no matter if an agency books it or someone books direct as stated above...
Let sleeping dogs lie......
USPIT10L From United States, joined Mar 2006, 2574 posts, RR: 9 Reply 62, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2061 times:
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 61): Yes shame on him......
I recently had a call from a lady asking me at our agency about AMTRAK. She asked me for the toll free number. I mistakenly but quickly gave her the number, but then asked her if there was anything I could help her with....Her reply: "No, I'll just call them myself and get my own tickets...Could you please repeat that phone number again?" Quickly thinking, I said to her, "Im sorry, you will have to get that phone number yourself..." Her reaction to me was: "Well, youre not a good Travel Agent...." I in turn told her: "Well you're not a good client." Click she hung up.....She actually had the gall to have her boyfriend call right back and ask for the same information from my co-worker....My co-worker simply told him, "You can find the number for AMTRAK with Directory Assistance.....
Yes, the supposed know it all's love to call and pick our brains and then go do it themselves...Its kinda funny when that happens, and they come back to us and tell us of all their problems and how they should have let us book them.....
I don't consider myself a know-it-all, but you've got the basic point. If the airlines hadn't given up their own pricing system and worked with agencies instead of cutting, cutting, cutting, we might not be in this mess with no way out. I have no problem asking an agency for basic information, but in truth, the internet does provide quite a large amount of information that is far more accessible than just calling somebody.
I did a brief internship with an agency back in 2001, and I actually fielded calls about GREYHOUND, believe it or not. Unfortunately, when you work with the public, you will get customers like that. They may drive you crazy, but they're only a fraction of your viable business.
MogandoCI From United States, joined Jun 2009, 165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1991 times:
Is it just me, or UAL747DEN sounds like someone from inside UA who's trying so very hard to spin this new PR disaster as a positive? If so, I congratulate him on even bother to give the effort of trying
The same thing happened to Venetian Macau (so I've heard) that they lost a lot of money a while ago because they refused to pay standard commission and incentive rates to casino junkets, so they steered all their high-rollers to competing casinos.
UA keeps this up, and I can imagine Expedia and Orbitz purposely sorting UA results to the last among all airlines that show the same price for an itinerary.
And for those who claim that this only affects a small portion of the TA industry, I'm very confident that if the trial were successful (at least in UA's perspective), they would roll it out to all TAs, large or small.
UAL747DEN From United States, joined Dec 2003, 1342 posts, RR: 13 Reply 64, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1968 times:
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 62): If the airlines hadn't given up their own pricing system and worked with agencies instead of cutting, cutting, cutting, we might not be in this mess with no way out.
LOL!!
Your kidding right! You really think that the industry trouble comes from not working with travel agents? What kind of crap are these trade groups sending out to you people that make you believe this crap!
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 542 posts, RR: 0 Reply 65, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1865 times:
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 51):
There was a time when travel agents where the life blood of the industry, now however is not that time. Now airlines work with a select few of the larger agencies that deal mostly with business travel and the rest they could care less about. Your average travel agency (including all mom and pop shops) mean nothing to the airlines.
People takes this to personally. we all have to take one step back and analyse rather than see it through our own glasses.
We have to remember that this is business and everyone is subjective here. Its the living of people were talking about but its also airlines that's loosing tonnes of money and trying everything they can to better their balance sheets.
I have yet to come across one industry that doesn't want full control over their sales.
It should be the first thing anyone working with organisations and productivity points out.
Everyone that sells through agents of any kind or are dependent on outside sales channels wants to reduce reliance on them.
Many cant but in the case of airlines they have seen competitors that can.
We have some pretty profitable carriers that have moved almost everything in house. Lowcost carriers mainly. Only bookings on their own websites and cancelling tickets sold through travel agents etc.
Every airline will be looking at them and at their own control. Its natural. The more sales they can move under their own umbrella the more certainty it provides them.
In times of bad economy certainty is very important to business.
Many of the agents knows that there are value and relations lost when you move things under your own control. But sometimes value, relations or for that fact service isn't part of the equation when companies decides to make changes.
Especially not when to much of corporate America does their best to please anonymous bankers in financial holding companies.
We have all seen CRM become hype. CRM comes from Relationship marketing and the entire idea that one can create value/relationships by automating CRM is a joke. Yet company after company automates CRM. The reason is that gain control and with control comes security and calculations.
They loose their RM or CRM but they gain a number they can calculate and that makes accountants, managers and consultants happy because security can be calculated.
Value, service and relations cant.
Obviously United knows what agents they want to use and they are telling the rest that they are not important enough to warrant any special treatment.
They probably think that some of those sales could be done through either onlineagents or be lost.
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 60):
Also, I've had to report several store owners to Visa and MasterCard because they required minimum purchases, which are illegal under Visa, MasterCard, and Discover Network rules (and also American Express rules if you also accept Visa/MC and/or Discover, to prevent card discrimination). I've never seen a US merchant that required a surcharge for credit, though... if I did, I wouldn't buy from them, and I would report them.
Its interesting. Is this the agreement with the card providers or is it legislation?
In most countries it always costs more to use a creditcard compared to cash.
Amex especially is not accepted at many places due to this.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care. Millwall against the world!
FWAERJ From United States, joined Jun 2006, 785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 66, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1844 times:
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 65): Its interesting. Is this the agreement with the card providers or is it legislation?
In most countries it always costs more to use a creditcard compared to cash.
Amex especially is not accepted at many places due to this.
In many US states, it's illegal. However, it's also built into the merchant rules found in Visa and MasterCard merchant processing agreements in the USA. Page 10 of the "Rules for Visa Merchants" (found here) state that a merchant should do the following (fair use excerpt): "Always treat Visa transactions like any other transaction; that is, you may not impose any surcharge on a Visa transaction." Bylaw 5.9.2 of the MasterCard Rules state a similar policy for MasterCard transactions.
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3094 posts, RR: 4 Reply 67, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1763 times:
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 61): Quoting United1 (Reply 5):
The majority of travel agents that UA has started passing this cost along to were ones who didn't do much business with UA in the first place.
This is NOT true, it can be any travel agency big or small.
Big or small is irrelevant, the ones who did not do much business with UA are the ones this is being tested out on....
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18407 posts, RR: 60 Reply 68, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1753 times:
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 65): Its interesting. Is this the agreement with the card providers or is it legislation?
In most countries it always costs more to use a creditcard compared to cash.
Amex especially is not accepted at many places due to this.
Shocking to some people, but the USA does have quite a few consumer protection laws, mostly on the state level, but some on the federal level.
Additionally, the credit card companies, in order to increase their business, insisted on these clauses.
This helped create the "credit culture" we have in the USA because for the consumer, using a credit card is just like using cash, except even if you pay off your bill in full, you get a free "loan" for a couple of weeks.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12054 posts, RR: 22 Reply 69, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1397 times:
Well this idea moved back 60-days.
Quote: United delays credit card fee shift for 60 days
Monday July 20, 2009
DALLAS (AP) -- United Airlines has delayed for up to two months a plan to force some travel agencies to pay the credit-card fees of customers who charge their tickets, a cost that is currently borne by the airline.
JMBWEEBOY From United States, joined Feb 2006, 173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 70, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1181 times:
Read this morning apparently only 28 agencies received the original notice! Like what's the point ?
Well point is likely that this was indeed a trial baloon to see reaction not necessarily from the agents whom they are not concerned of screwing, but rather Washington. A number of lawmakers are starting to rally against it. I predict by Labor Day this idea will be canned by United and just in the end appear as a desperate move by a desperate airline.
Blrsea From India, joined May 2005, 943 posts, RR: 4 Reply 71, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1105 times:
I was trying to book tickets on BA through travel agents, and more than a couple of agents told me that BA doesn't accept credit cards and that I have to pay by check. Issue appears to be similar in that the travel agents get the money and they send it to the airlines, and my card isn't directly charged to BA. So looks like there is a precedent for already doing this.
Let the travel agents cover the credit card transaction processing fees instead of the airline. In other words the airline gets to recover $100 of $100 of revenue instead of giving 2-4% away to credit card companies. It cost United $710 million last year in such charges.
The travel agents are free to pass or build the the fee onto their customers if they wish, as most charge service fees these days anyhow.
71 replies and the best most logically broken down one is still the first.
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3094 posts, RR: 4 Reply 73, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 692 times:
Quoting JMBWEEBOY (Reply 73): Per Travel Weekly, several congressman/woman are likely to call for congressional hearings on this issue to be held in September.
Besides wasting my tax dollars what's the point? UA already announced that they are delaying implementing this at all 28 affected agencies for at least 60 days so more then likely this idea is dead in the water.
Access-Air From United States, joined Sep 2000, 1853 posts, RR: 29 Reply 74, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 551 times:
[quote=UAL747DEN,reply=64]LOL!!
Your kidding right! You really think that the industry trouble comes from not working with travel agents? What kind of crap are these trade groups sending out to you people that make you believe this crap!
I would ask what kind of Indoctrination you have been served up with?
Before the Internet and E-Tkts (Thank you Valujet...NOT!!!!), there were three ways to buy tickets, Call the airline, Go to the airport or visit your local travel agency.
Airlines prices were the SAME if you bought it from them directly, on the phone or at a travel agency. The airlines as an incentive to book them and bring them business was to pay a Travel Agent a meager 10% commission. Sometimes it was higher depending on the airline and the contracts that some airlines would forge with Travel Agencies...
Then as as the idea of selling airline tickets on the internet, the airliens got cocky (DELTA was the first) and decided to cut commissions. Well like the monkey see monkey do industry which is the airline industry is, everyone followed suit.
Did I mention that I am a Travel Agent and have been since, well It will be TWENTY YEARS next month!!!!
Soon afterward, Travel Agencies were up in arms as they have all been betrayed by the very companies that they had dedicated their every business deal to. A call to action by travel agenst came to nothing, boycotting airlines because of a federal law that prevented the agencies from colluding against the airlines. So with that in place, airlines were free to cut away until the very last cut came in March 2002. I wa sin England at that time. My co-worker e-mailed me that news. Zero commissions thanks to Godd Ole Delta.
The airlines claimed that they would be saving millions. Yeah right. The day that they decided to cut agnecies out of the picture is the day that airlines slowly started poisoning themselves to death. I might add that the very last airline to dump their commissions was SOUTHWEST!!! Of course Southwest wasnt bleeding to death like everyone else...I wonder if United is successful in their scheme here, will Travel Agencies be able to use the same collusion tactic used on them a decade earlier? Probably not.
So now airlines have what they wanted. The demand of the general public sets the pricing and the airlines are so scared to raise fares but not afraid to "FEE" everyone to death.
Im glad everyone loves paying for baggage an everything else that should be partof the whole package.....Hmmm, didnt PeoplExpress do that? What about paying for everything else? A la Carte is for restaurants, not airline travel!!!
If you dont miss the perks of these things that airlines once provided then you are probably too young to remember them.
Let United do this...Our agency will just sell on the UA website and they will still be charged their credit card fee....
Access-Air
p.s. One final note, Some people will want to pay with a credit card for the credit card flight insurance, just wait until they are made to pay cash....This point ALWAYS comes up in our agency.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18407 posts, RR: 60 Reply 75, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 509 times:
Quoting FXramper (Reply 72): 71 replies and the best most logically broken down one is still the first.
You obviously didn't read all 71, as what he proposes would not be allowed under the travel agent's credit card contracts unless it applied to all customers, not simply credit card customers.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Lightsaber From United States, joined Jan 2005, 4978 posts, RR: 86 Reply 76, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 458 times:
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 74): So with that in place, airlines were free to cut away until the very last cut came in March 2002.
June 2001 would have been the end. That was the launch of Orbitz. The hype and marketing of that sight worked. I never bought a ticket through a travel agency again. Oh, I now shop at multiple sites for low fares. I've never known a world where business travel was anything but online. Cest la vie.
Once upon the time the consumer had a hunger to find out more about fares. What days were cheaper to fly on, what cost reduction for a 1 stop or 2 stop fight, etc.
Is there a point for international travel? Sure. But I know for my last major vacation (Hawaii, multiple islands, multiple hops) we never considered talking to anyone for a trip. We used HA's website (booked all flights to/from HNL to save the 'connection surcharge' they hit mainlanders with), all hotels but one on priceline and called the little hotel my wife wanted to always stay at.
I remember both the perks *and cost* of earlier airline travel. I've flown cheaper TATL than one used to be able to fly transcon.
Oh, for the record, I did fly People's express too! {Spin} Hot crowded flight to HNL... But as a kid spending a week at the beach, it was the only way a family could afford it back then.
Lightsaber
Need to throw a party every six months to organize the place.
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