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VS Finally Waking Up To Reality?  
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13352 times:

Just read this interesting article online.

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Virgin-A...c-Flirts-With-Jobs-Cull-41037.html

In it it it asks what has happend in the last few weeks??. It is only a few weeks ago RB was boasting how much more efficent VS was in contrast to BA!!.

It also says VS has seen a larger fall in forward bookings than what BA has seen. The article says although BA isn't fairing to well either, it has seen the rate of forward bookings remaining stable and demand for it's premium products have stabilised on it's all important North American routes.

Did some digging around and found that VS don't release their pax traffic stats. However recent CRS data which is bookings made through travel agents and travel management companies shows that bookings in VS's upper class where down more than 30% in May compared to a year ago. Compared to BA's 17.2%.

So could VS actually be the one going to the UK goverment for a bailout first?? and if push came to shove would anyone step in to buy VS if the worst came to the worse and if yes who??.

Is this now the time that they should be thinking seriously about joining an alliance?.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1543 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13280 times:

Its a tribute to SRB that he gets as much publicity as he does.

However, humility is a well respected human trait, which unfortunately seems to have evaded him over the years. One suspects it will be vanity that ensures VS stays in the air.

The reality is VS is a very small airline in a very big world. Putting aside the significant loss of employment their demise would cause, VS would not be missed.



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13161 times:

Doug McVitie ex Airbus man and extreme Airbus basher, immediately recognizeable from his Airbus comments  Big grin

User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12948 times:

Does not Singapore Airlines not own about 50% of Virgin....?

or maybe Lufthansa will buy Virgin and allow them to start LH ops
from LHR etc ???



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineNormie999 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12801 times:

There's an interesting overview of the Virgin empire here

http://insidetraveller.co.uk/blog/?p=220

that supports the sentiments of this thread. One way or another though, Branson leads a charmed life with more than his fair share of good luck, and I would be surprised if he didn't find a way of riding this recession out.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25260 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12768 times:
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Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Doug McVitie ex Airbus man and extreme Airbus basher, immediately recognizeable from his Airbus comments

Agreed.  Smile

Quoting Shankly (Reply 1):
However, humility is a well respected human trait, which unfortunately seems to have evaded him over the years.

Humility is not something I expect in a self-made billionaire and I don't see that it's necessary or desirable in a CEO, especially an airline CEO..

Whatever you think of him, Virgin is an extraordinary achievement.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12617 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Whatever you think of him, Virgin is an extraordinary achievement.

Mariner, truer words have never been spoken.

As for VS vs. BA...this is the same old "us vs. them" argument that has gone back and forth since Virgin began flying the North Atlantic. I really don't pay too much attention to it.

With respect to VS, they don't report their stats which is a little frustrating, since it would be nice to analyze how they achieve what they have been able to achieve. That said, I would tend to take SRB at his word; he has been right more times than he has been wrong.

As for CRS booking data: As a former airline analyst who worked directly with this data, to simply say that carrier A's bookings are down more than carrier B's bookings is not enough. It is important to know the WHY behind those numbers and that is something that takes a fair amount of experience to get at. MIDT data is just that: DATA. It is not the data that is important, it is the interpretation of that data and how reasonable it sounds compared to other factors in the marketplace that really drives the story. Just because VS's bookings are down vs. BA's doesn't mean anything other than they are down. Unless you know why, it is difficult to determine if there is a real problem or a fabricated one. If bookings are down and yield is up (as an example) then the fact that their bookings are down more than BA's may not be as critical an issue.

SRB may be flayboyant. He may be arrogant. He is anything but humble, but then again, after what he has accomplished, does he need to be? I think not. I also agree with Mariner's statement about airline CEOs and the fact that it is not necessary for an airline CEO to be humble. In fact, the stronger they are, the better they are (usually). There are a couple of notable examples in the US airline industry; however, globally, SRB is NOT among the guys I would consider absent of the knowledge, experience or guts to run an airline. If VS is not doing as well as he would like, then he will make the appropriate adjustments (probably injecting more cash). I'm not concerned, and I absolutely do not believe that VS would ever go into bankrutpcy....they have way too many smart people there to ever get to that point.

baw716
(I don't work for Virgin and even though my callsign is BAW, that doesn't mean I don't express positive opinions of people who deserve it).



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12567 times:



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 6):
SRB may be flayboyant. He may be arrogant.

I love it! Big grin



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineSpud757 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12480 times:



Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 3):
Does not Singapore Airlines not own about 50% of Virgin....?

or maybe Lufthansa will buy Virgin and allow them to start LH ops
from LHR etc ???

Since SQ has a 50% stake in VS and vice versa why is it that VS never signed up to star alliance and formed closer ties to working with the BD network through code sharing etc. The more establised long-haul nature of VS would possibly work well with the domestic, european BD network?

On a flight with SQ SIN-LHR I noticed it was code sharing with AC and VS. So the links are there so why not the alliance membership. What would the pros v cons of VS joining star?


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12333 times:



Quoting Spud757 (Reply 8):
The more establised long-haul nature of VS would possibly work well with the domestic, european BD network?

Most of the short-haul domestic and European routes have been abandoned, they are down to BHD, DUB, MAN, GLA, EDI for the winter. PMI, VCE and AMS are going. MXP an german routes are operated for LH. Im sure BD-VS parings would be able to offer some attractive routings and proudcts into the US, but with expansion of American carriers into these regions, is there really a market for connecting people over LHR?

Quoting Spud757 (Reply 8):
What would the pros v cons of VS joining star?

I suppose SMB never really wanted VS in *A, LH saw no advantage in it either, it would likely divert traffic from it's own hubs in favour of the direct VS option, where available. Im not sure how UA felt about it either, they never had any sort of relationship with VS.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12224 times:

Too much is made of SQ's stake in VS, which SQ basically sees as worthless at this point.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12197 times:



Quoting Spud757 (Reply 8):
Since SQ has a 50% stake in VS and vice versa

It's not vice versa - VS does not have a 49% stake in SQ - indeed I don't think it has any - it certainly isn't one of the top 10 shareholders according to http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...nt/company_info/investor/stock.jsp

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineJetterrosie From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11901 times:

I find it quite funny that people on this forum think that SRB is the CEO of Virgin Atlantic and personally makes every single decision plus controls all of the publicity.

The CEO is Steve Ridgway and they have a team of people handling all of the PR who no doubt report to the CEO.

They were profitable last year for a reason, as they were post 9/11 and that is due to good decision making plus a good dose of luck on things like fuel hedging, cost cutting and general good timing. 600 cuts is proof that they are tightning their belts in anticipation of a tough year and thats all.


User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1543 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11831 times:



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 6):
That said, I would tend to take SRB at his word; he has been right more times than he has been wrong

Scratching my head for examples of where he has been "right". Opinionated, yes, but right?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Humility is not something I expect in a self-made billionaire and I don't see that it's necessary or desirable in a CEO, especially an airline CEO..

At the right moment, humility can be devastatingly successful. I can't believe you actually need an example of a CEO who exhibits such traits, but the clue is, he is running your country right now.



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11831 times:



Quoting Jetterrosie (Reply 12):
find it quite funny that people on this forum think that SRB is the CEO of Virgin Atlantic and personally makes every single decision plus controls all of the publicity.

The CEO is Steve Ridgway

Hear, hear! I also find it amusing that people - A.nutters - still get confused about it.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11690 times:
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BrianDromey

Quite correct and somewhat surprising that people even on these forums seem to think bmi actually has a London based European network - they don't, and haven't for several years.

They retain a core domestic and Ireland scheduled in the main providing feed onto fellow *A partners LHR services.
There is no need to feed any of these from Mainland Europe as FRA/MUC are the main *A Hubs now and in the future.

They also operate a few German services either directly for or in very close co-operation with LH - Hannover, Berlin and plus the 2 of the daily LHit MXP rotations.

Like it or not LHR in the eyes of *A is a Focus and O&D city and not a primary Hub.

What does surprise me is that Amsterdam has been pulled whilst retaining Brussels.
Amsterdam provides the potential for valuable oil/gas traffic into the Mid East/Central Asia service.
Brussels well i suppose it now connects to an other *A regional hub.

I would not be at all surprised if LH seek to exchange quite a few slot leases for cash soon.

As to Virgin,SRB is VERY PROTECTIVE of BRAND and independence and does not countenance the Alliance structure.
If VS does require refinancing I would expect Virgin Group to buy out the Singapore Holding.

By the way to all those above SRB is NOT the Chief Executive of VS thats one Steve Ridgway.
SRB is however the owner of the brand and major shareholder through Virgin Group.
He is also very good a publicity and media manipulation!


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25260 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8024 times:
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Quoting Shankly (Reply 13):
At the right moment, humility can be devastatingly successful. I can't believe you actually need an example of a CEO who exhibits such traits, but the clue is, he is running your country right now.

Humility may work for some people - not for others.

And I'm not sure who you mean by the "person running my country" - I am Australian but I live in New Zealand.

The Prime Minister of Australia is certainly a wolf in sheep's clothing and the jury is still out on Mr Key in New Zealand.

As to your own country, it is only soaring self-belief, not humility, that kept Mr. Brown in office in his recent travails.

Back to airlines. Juan Trippe, of Pan Am, is often regarded as one of the great airline CEO's.

I would not put "humility" and Juan Trippe in the same sentence.

Quoting Jetterrosie (Reply 12):
I find it quite funny that people on this forum think that SRB is the CEO of Virgin Atlantic and personally makes every single decision plus controls all of the publicity.

Simple shorthand. What SRB actually does at Virgin Atlantic has always been a bit opaque.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3585 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7819 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 14):
Quoting Jetterrosie (Reply 12):
find it quite funny that people on this forum think that SRB is the CEO of Virgin Atlantic and personally makes every single decision plus controls all of the publicity.

The CEO is Steve Ridgway

Hear, hear! I also find it amusing that people - A.nutters - still get confused about it.

When you have an airline which is 51% owned by one man, who is a master of self publicity, one could be forgiven for wondering just how much power the CEO has


User currently offlineVS030 From Barbados, joined Sep 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

I don't think there is any real reason for concern. I do feel sympathy for those who will possibly be losing their jobs, but cutting capacity isn't an S.O.S. to the world. Cutting capacity and fuel hedging, amongst other factors, were reasons why they were able to achieve the profits they did recently. If the route's not profitable, or expected to be, then I don't see the reason to continue the service.

P.S. Virgin owns a 51% stake in VS, while SQ owns a 49% stake.



Impossible Is Nothing
User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4986 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7462 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
What SRB actually does at Virgin Atlantic has always been a bit opaque. Smile

If you believe what SRB says in his auto-biography, he does what he is asked to do by VA management. According to him the PR spectaculars are crafted by the PR people who have him execute them according to the script. He only does what he is asked. He is extremely laudible in his praise for Ridgeway and his management team. VA has good people, some good enough for Alan Joyce to poach away for QF.

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 15):
As to Virgin,SRB is VERY PROTECTIVE of BRAND

Absolutely, he goes to great lengths in the book to expound on why the brand needs to be protected and if a Virgin division drops the ball over something, that it is put right post haste!


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25260 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7425 times:
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Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 19):
He is extremely laudible in his praise for Ridgeway and his management team. VA has good people, some good enough for Alan Joyce to poach away for QF.

I think he has been laudably "humble" in many areas. There was a tv interview in the US where he happily admitted that he didn't understand the difference between RASM and CASM

He tried to explain it, cocked it up - and laughed at himself for cocking it up.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7247 times:



Quoting Spud757 (Reply 8):
Since SQ has a 50% stake in VS and vice versa why is it that VS never signed up to star alliance and formed closer ties to working with the BD network through code sharing etc.

I don't think that there can be more than one carrier from each alliance per country in the EU.


User currently offlineKnid From New Zealand, joined Aug 2005, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6959 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):

Simple shorthand. What SRB actually does at Virgin Atlantic has always been a bit opaque.



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 19):

If you believe what SRB says in his auto-biography, he does what he is asked to do by VA management. According to him the PR spectaculars are crafted by the PR people who have him execute them according to the script. He only does what he is asked. He is extremely laudible in his praise for Ridgeway and his management team. VA has good people, some good enough for Alan Joyce to poach away for QF.

Although creative, I have long thought his better traits are the ability to recognise good ideas, good people and the ability to leave things to those who know what they are doing, rather than thinking he knows better.


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4986 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6471 times:



Quoting Knid (Reply 22):
Although creative, I have long thought his better traits are the ability to recognise good ideas, good people and the ability to leave things to those who know what they are doing, rather than thinking he knows better.

Agreed. This theme runs through the book and across all Virgin enterprises.


User currently offline_AA_777_MAN From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

September 12, 2009 VS is set to quit LHR-ORD, for the second time.

25 Jfk777 : Reminds me of Juan Trippe when he "retired" but still kept an office down the hall. People still went to see him when they needed approval. The CEO w
26 Mariner : He was one of the first to identify the power of "the pink pound" when the Virgin Group bought Heaven, the famous/notorious gay disco in London. He d
27 EK345 : However, I bet he knows the difference beween RASK and CASK EK345
28 Brilondon : They may have tried to come to some agreement but behind the scenes I probably can guess that SRB would have to give up control that as a megalomania
29 AApilot2b : One thing that this article points out is the inefficiency of VS's A340 fleet. While I have heard this before, does anyone know exactly how much more
30 Post contains links Mariner : Ask Lufthansa about that. They fly a lot of A340's and they still expect to make a good profit this year - although down from last year: http://onlin
31 UAL747DEN : Mariner, I usually agree with about 99% of what you write but as far as im concerned Juan Trippe was worthless! As I see it he was able to run an air
32 Mariner : I have my own opinion of Mr. Trippe, but the perception of him is as one of the great (airline) movers and shakers and he was surely an exceptional p
33 EA CO AS : And those are precisely the reasons I'll always, always and forever, amen, root against him and pull for his competitors. It's sad - he'd be easy to
34 Post contains links VirginFlyer : It is - see http://europa.eu/abc/european_countr...members/unitedkingdom/index_en.htm It is not however a member of the Eurozone, instead retaining t
35 BALHRWWCC : Four engines is only better than two because then they don't have to worry about ETOPS. In my opinion the A340's engines look pathetic alongside the
36 Max550 : I remember someone telling me that before, but I can't find a reference anywhere. You're probably correct that it simply hasn't come up.
37 BALHRWWCC : Had a look online and asked a despatch friend of mine and a A340-600 is more fuel efficent than the it's boeing counterpart the 777-300. A full A340-
38 Ikramerica : Which is absolute bull. The A346 does not have a 50% efficiency advantage.
39 UAL747DEN : I am with you completely on PAN AM being one of the most famous and as far as im concerned THE MOST FAMOUS. I really do miss it and wish it were stil
40 77West : Indeed it is bull - if this was the case there would be many more airlines flying the A340-600. You cannot really compare fuel consumption using litr
41 Astuteman : The A346 will almost certainly burn more fuel than the 773ER to the tune of double-digit percentage points. Given the overall similarity in size/capa
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