wow, 99%! Also, very good LF on routes from CCS, GIG and EWR to OPO... However, it is strange that none of the OPO departing routes are among the best ones (OPO-GIG with porr 55% LF)... Maybe this is made mostly my leisure traffic, which returns via LIS?
LIS-CNF is not among the list, so I presume it is featuring low/mid-sexties LF also... I'm quite plaesed with CNF, regarding both AA's and TP's services...
In general numbers, it's amazing how TP does well in Brazil (and also in CCS and EWR). They created such a strong base here, and even non-stops like CNF and BSB, that I was doubtful in the beggining, are now performing well, mainly BSB.
The flight probably had a lot of overbookings leading pax to be rebooked on GRU-LIS. 99% is indeed amazing load factor.
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 4): Seems that NAT is still not working good for TP. Perhaps they should stop serving it non-stop, adding a tag on FOR service (LIS-FOR-NAT-FOR-LIS)...
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 4): They created such a strong base here, and even non-stops like CNF and BSB, that I was doubtful in the beggining, are now performing well, mainly BSB.
Overall all ruotes in Brazil are doing very well except for NAT. There is no reason why to connect NAT with FOR or REC because both are doing well as dedicated flights. Perhaps TAP could operate LIS-NAT-MCZ-LIS for example or LIS-NAT-SLZ-LIS. Or they could drop NAT and start MAO or BEL instead.
Interesting to note that FOR and REC are among TAP best performing routes with load factors on the +80%. Probably NAT releases some pressure on REC flight.
SSA is also doing well with load factors of 74% for SSA-LIS and 68% for LIS-SSA.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12047 posts, RR: 22 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7851 times:
Quoting Carmelo (Reply 6): I dont get it...OPO-CCS got a 90s laodfactor but CCS-OPO only 50s...do they hate Portugal that much to not fly back?!
Such monthly directional variations are quite common globally.
For instance a few days ago I posted about LF for United's Hong Kong services. A month like April saw very strong Eastbound demand- 94.4%, but Westbound was only 65.8%.
Such variations over longer periods smooth themselves out, except in some peculiar markets where other things are in work such as large immigrations flows.
A good example of this has been Tijuana Mexico which has always had stronger inbound loads on domestic Mexico flights, but weaker outbound loads as these passengers mysteriously cross the US border and dont catch their return flights.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
JJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 706 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 5): The flight probably had a lot of overbookings leading pax to be rebooked on GRU-LIS. 99% is indeed amazing load factor.
True.. Overbookings would explain it.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 5): Overall all ruotes in Brazil are doing very well except for NAT. There is no reason why to connect NAT with FOR or REC because both are doing well as dedicated flights. Perhaps TAP could operate LIS-NAT-MCZ-LIS for example or LIS-NAT-SLZ-LIS. Or they could drop NAT and start MAO or BEL instead.
Interesting to note that FOR and REC are among TAP best performing routes with load factors on the +80%. Probably NAT releases some pressure on REC flight.
SSA is also doing well with load factors of 74% for SSA-LIS and 68% for LIS-SSA.
You are right, considering both FOR and REC are doing well, adding NAT to the flight would not be smart. I like the idea of dropping NAT in favour of other route, that could be LIS-BEL-MAO-LIS or LIS-BEL-MAO-BEL-LIS, this way I think they would get better loads than by serving only one of them non-stop.
Considering they are doing so well on CCS, I'd say both BOG and LIM could work for them.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7782 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
High load factors explained by additional service cut during June. Some routes just got 50% of the scheduled service. Good for TP for sure, but still with equipment parking (lease costs) and crew at home. Also, some flights were merged (NAT/LIS for example) in one or more dates.
Notwithstand, performance in Brazil , in special Sao Paulo, was very good.
July numbers seems to be even better (with more services)
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 4): wow, 99%! Also, very good LF on routes from CCS, GIG and EWR to OPO... However, it is strange that none of the OPO departing routes are among the best ones (OPO-GIG with porr 55% LF)... Maybe this is made mostly my leisure traffic, which returns via LIS?
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 5): The flight probably had a lot of overbookings leading pax to be rebooked on GRU-LIS. 99% is indeed amazing load factor.
TP has scheduled OPO-GRU/GIG as 2x weekly which will show to us something like 2,000 seats in one month. AFAIK OPO-GRU got less than 1,200 seats or in other words, TP just run one weekly service, with the others going thru GRU-LIS. Just to compare GIG-OPO, also with some scheduled services canceled carried something like 600 more passengers, or, 3/4 more flights were realized.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 5): Overall all ruotes in Brazil are doing very well except for NAT. There is no reason why to connect NAT with FOR or REC because both are doing well as dedicated flights. Perhaps TAP could operate LIS-NAT-MCZ-LIS for example or LIS-NAT-SLZ-LIS. Or they could drop NAT and start MAO or BEL instead.
TP in fact flew last month some LIS-NAT-REC-LIS flights, merging passengers of two routes into one plane.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 7582 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11): Notwithstand, performance in Brazil , in special Sao Paulo, was very good.
July numbers seems to be even better (with more services)
Performance in all routes were excellent to very good, except for NAT.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11): TP in fact flew last month some LIS-NAT-REC-LIS flights, merging passengers of two routes into one plane.
It seems the right decision to merge NAT with another Northeast flight. REC is the wise choice given proximity.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11): AFAIK OPO-GRU got less than 1,200 seats or in other words, TP just run one weekly service, with the others going thru GRU-LIS. Just to compare GIG-OPO, also with some scheduled services canceled carried something like 600 more passengers, or, 3/4 more flights were realized.
Which means that TP cancelled some flights driving up loads on OPO-GRU and at the same time LIS-GRU because of rebookings. Both had loads above 90% which does not necessarily mean good operational performance because it results in a lot of overbookings.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 7576 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12): Passengers by route in June:
Rio de Janeiro - Porto 1636
São Paulo - Porto 1053
Porto - Rio de Janeiro 1026
Porto - São Paulo 757
Thanks, just confirms that OPO-GRU-OPO got 4 flights only during june and OPO-GIG-OPO 7 flights (both should be 8 or 9). If the scheduled time table 2x weekly) was run, the load factor would be lower for sure.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7343 times:
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 1): INdeed strange, same as EWR-OPO and OPO-EWR. Huge difference in loadfactor.
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 9): It's the other way around, they go to Portugal and "stay" there. It's probably seasonal, but if it isn't the reason might possibly be
The Portuguese have the habit of going back to Portugal in the summer to visit friends and relatives and stay a long time, as much a whole month. What you're seeing is the first wave of this annual ritual. On top of that you have Portuguese students abroad, especially in the US, who finished school in May and are returning home for the Summer but not coming back to the US until late August.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 18, posted (4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7238 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14): Thanks, just confirms that OPO-GRU-OPO got 4 flights only during june and OPO-GIG-OPO 7 flights (both should be 8 or 9). If the scheduled time table 2x weekly) was run, the load factor would be lower for sure.
AIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 1588 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (4 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6971 times:
Any numbers on their european route. Have used them on BRU-LIS-BRU and I was really impressed with their crews and inflight service. I can say that they are on top of the airlines I have travelled with in shorthaul lately.
Next flights : VIE-CDG-GIG-CDG-VIE (AF), VIE-BRU-VIE (OS)
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 22, posted (4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6864 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 20): I agree, especially with the recent announcement from Ryanair that they'll be setting up a base in OPO. I suspect TP's days there are numbered.
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 19): I think LIS-EZE would be smarter...
TAP does not need to operate in EZE because it already counts on TAM codeshare to EZE.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6747 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22): TAP does not need to operate in EZE because it already counts on TAM codeshare to EZE.
Well, not exactly. That would be ok if there was enough O&D demand from/to Portugal but I suspect that's not the case. I don't think there is a lot of demand for travel between Portugal and Argentina. I suspect the majority would be connecting passengers from Spain and other points in Europe, making a trip to EZE a 2 stop trip instead of a 1 stop with another carrier via some other hub.
Having said that, I think there other cities that would be more valuable for TAP. I would expect to see IST, AUH, BOM, or even PEK well ahead of EZE. And if SATA gets into even more trouble than they are now and start dropping BOS and YYZ, I fully expect TP to jump on those 2 cities even if only 3/4 times a week.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 24, posted (4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6615 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23): I don't think there is a lot of demand for travel between Portugal and Argentina. I suspect the majority would be connecting passengers from Spain and other points in Europe, making a trip to EZE a 2 stop trip instead of a 1 stop with another carrier via some other hub.
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23): I think there other cities that would be more valuable for TAP. I would expect to see IST, AUH, BOM, or even PEK well ahead of EZE
I agree there are many other options for TAP before EZE which anyway is well covered by the codeshare with TAM. TAP could capitalise on the Brazilian connection in LIS to establish a flight to a destination with strong Brazilian demand.
But I do not agree with any of the destinations you listed: IST (TH already operates in GRU), PEK (too competitive and TAM routes pax via FRA and MAD where it has codeshare with CA), BOM (many airlines are retreating from India and this is not a good time), AUH (this is an oil market with fierce Etihad competition).
I would rather think that TAP needs to open a new route to a Star Alliance hub with strong O&D could be YYZ for example. But then TAP would not attract Brazilian connections. The African markets also offer good opportunities. The same for opening a new Brazilian route such as BEL or MAO.
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 3 Reply 25, posted (4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6539 times:
I always wodered why TP doesn't fly LIS-VIE, that could have both O/D and Austrians going to various places in Brazil. I mean, TP flies to PRG, BUD, WAW, HEL and even ZAG but why not VIE? I know that OS had a twice-weekly flight some years ago that they pulled, and that Skyeurope is flying now - but they could go any moment. Would this be an opportunity for TP?
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 26, posted (4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6781 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24): But I do not agree with any of the destinations you listed: IST (TH already operates in GRU), PEK (too competitive and TAM routes pax via FRA and MAD where it has codeshare with CA), BOM (many airlines are retreating from India and this is not a good time), AUH (this is an oil market with fierce Etihad competition).
Here are my reasons:
IST is a *A hub and Turkey is a significant tourist destination from Portugal. In addition, IST is a good alternative to FRA when traveling to Asia. Asian travel tends to have higher yields than N.America.
PEK, and China in general is too big of a market to be ignored. The Chinese are a growing segment of incoming visitors to Portugal so much so that Portugal has spent quite a lot of money advertising Portugal as a destination, in China. Last year Portugal received 50,000 Chinese visitors and that's without any direct link between the 2 countries or any specific advertisement campaign. China-Brazil and especially China-Luanda could also be a very lucrative business markets. No other carrier in the World offers daily and double-daily connections to LAD.
BOM, yes the weakest of the 4 but many airlines are retreating because they put too much capacity in the US-India market and with the US economy tanking, that market has suffered significantly. TP would not be a player in that same market. They would capitalize on their Brazilian and African connections, and past historical ties between Portugal and India to generate tourism travel demand.
AUH, that's primarily political. The Portuguse government wants a connection to the Gulf. Also Galp is becoming a sizeable global oil player thanks to their investments in Brazilian oil exploration.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24): I would rather think that TAP needs to open a new route to a Star Alliance hub with strong O&D could be YYZ for example.
True but that's been an option for years and there must be a reason why they haven't done it. Perhaps YYZ, *A hub and all, is not the yield generating destination we all think it could be. We know it's a highly seasonal market, that's for sure.
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 25): I always wodered why TP doesn't fly LIS-VIE, that could have both O/D and Austrians going to various places in Brazil.
That's kind of odd but Austrian leisure travel is dominated by charter carriers so maybe that's the reason. Also, OS/VIE doesn't really offer now that much more than MUC/FRA/ZRH already offer. I think IST would be a far better destination for TP.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 27, posted (4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6701 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
[/quote]
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22): TAP does not need to operate in EZE because it already counts on TAM codeshare to EZE.
If you want to carry passengers from EZE to Spain, TAM code share is not a solution as it demand 2 stops and 2 waits
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23): Well, not exactly. That would be ok if there was enough O&D demand from/to Portugal but I suspect that's not the case. I don't think there is a lot of demand for travel between Portugal and Argentina. I suspect the majority would be connecting passengers from Spain and other points in Europe, making a trip to EZE a 2 stop trip instead of a 1 stop with another carrier via some other hub.
Agree. In order to have a competitive product to Argentina, TP need a non-stop to EZE. My suggestion about OPO is just because there's a good area of Spain closer to OPO than MAD. LIS would demand 1 stop, while OPO could mean non stop for people from Santiago de Compostela for example.
But i agree LIS would allow more connections from other markets in Europe.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 29, posted (4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6533 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 28): Agree. And they would also be able to fill EZE-LIS with connections from SCL, ASU, MVD, LIM(?)...
I don't think so, the market from such cities to LIS is limited and to do another connection is worst or the same IB for example already offers.
EZE is a good market because it lacks services to other places of Spain where there's ties with not only MAD, but Barcelona, Sevilla, Santiago, Vigo, La Coruna, Malaga and others.
Some of these markets are closer to OPO (Vigo, Santiago, La Coruna) and in a comfortable distance for a road trip.
Can you identify 200 PDEW from some areas of Spain outside MAD to Argentina ? Yes, but mainly VFR. However, OPO-BCN could bring some good yields to OPO-EZE.
JJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 706 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6527 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 29): I don't think so, the market from such cities to LIS is limited and to do another connection is worst or the same IB for example already offers
Ok, thise cities doesn't have big demand to LIS, however, small demand from 4/5 cities is enough to colaborate with at least 20/30 daily pax... Regarding IB option, it's just a metter of offering better schedule.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 29): Yes, but mainly VFR. However, OPO-BCN could bring some good yields to OPO-EZE.
And even bigger ones to LIS-EZE considering there are considerably more options on BCN-LIS route.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 31, posted (4 months 4 hours ago) and read 6398 times:
To tell you the truth I don't quite understand what TP's strategy is regarding OPO. Actually I'm not entirely convinced that TP knows what their stategy for OPO is, or even if they have one
I suspect they would like the new LIS airport as soon as possible and make that their one and only hub but with consistent delays on that front they keep building out OPO. But it's still not a true 2 hub strategy, and with Ryanair setting up shop in OPO, in my opinion TP is now forced to make a decision, of whether to take OPO seriously or abandon it and wait for the new LIS airport.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 32, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6278 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 27): If you want to carry passengers from EZE to Spain, TAM code share is not a solution as it demand 2 stops and 2 waits
I was referring to traffic Portugal-Argentina only. EZE-MAD and EZE-BCN is already served and I do not see TAP playing a role here. I personally think EZE is not a priority for TAP.
This is another important route considering VIE is a Star hub.
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 26): IST is a *A hub and Turkey is a significant tourist destination from Portugal. In addition, IST is a good alternative to FRA when traveling to Asia. Asian travel tends to have higher yields than N.America.
PEK, and China in general is too big of a market to be ignored. The Chinese are a growing segment of incoming visitors to Portugal so much so that Portugal has spent quite a lot of money advertising Portugal as a destination, in China. Last year Portugal received 50,000 Chinese visitors and that's without any direct link between the 2 countries or any specific advertisement campaign. China-Brazil and especially China-Luanda could also be a very lucrative business markets. No other carrier in the World offers daily and double-daily connections to LAD.
BOM, yes the weakest of the 4 but many airlines are retreating because they put too much capacity in the US-India market and with the US economy tanking, that market has suffered significantly. TP would not be a player in that same market. They would capitalize on their Brazilian and African connections, and past historical ties between Portugal and India to generate tourism travel demand.
AUH, that's primarily political. The Portuguse government wants a connection to the Gulf. Also Galp is becoming a sizeable global oil player thanks to their investments in Brazilian oil exploration.
I think your points are relevant but except for IST I do not see any chance for the time being. Even a market such as MAD-PEK is only served currently twice weekly and the market is much bigger than LIS-PEK.
Another important point is that now with TAAG outside the EU black-list TAP will face competition again in LAD and loads and yields will deteriorate. Last week TAAG ended its codeshare with TAP.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 33, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6211 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32): Another important point is that now with TAAG outside the EU black-list TAP will face competition again in LAD and loads and yields will deteriorate. Last week TAAG ended its codeshare with TAP.
Not really. For starters TAAG won't be serving many European cities, certainly not daily. Second, they are not a member of any alliance. And third, I just don't see TAAG attracting many non-Angolan business passengers. No corporation in their right mind will allow their employees to travel with an airline that's been black listed for as long as TAAG has been. That's a black eye that will take a very long time to heal. Between LIS and LAD alone there's more than enough demand for the 2 airlines to operate. Keep in mind that TAAG was still operating to LIS (by way of SA), so it's not like there will be a huge increase in available seats.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 34, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6207 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 33): No corporation in their right mind will allow their employees to travel with an airline that's been black listed for as long as TAAG has been.
You are correct. TAP will continue to dominate the corporate and business traffic to LAD, there is not doubt. On the other hand, the fact that TAAG will be back to LIS also means more competition and TAP will not be the sole player of this route which generated a lot of cash so far. Results will certainly decline although TAP will still have a comfortable position in LAD as the only airline operating daily or more flight to LAD which gives TAP an important edge.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 35, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6160 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32): I was referring to traffic Portugal-Argentina only. EZE-MAD and EZE-BCN is already served and I do not see TAP playing a role here. I personally think EZE is not a priority for TAP.
As i explained, the best strategy for an EZE flight would be to attract closer Spanish markets like Vigo, Santiago de Compostela, La Coruna and some others, and not MAD neither BCN. BCN could just complement because AR does not fly daily.
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 31): But it's still not a true 2 hub strategy, and with Ryanair setting up shop in OPO, in my opinion TP is now forced to make a decision, of whether to take OPO seriously or abandon it and wait for the new LIS airport.
Agree with you, and just need to see that TP never tried to offer OPO-LAD, and was not successfully with OPO-SSA. Ryanair will put TP in a bad situation where they will need to take a decision regarding their European network there, and this can put in danger the OPO long haul limited operations to EWR, GIG and GRU.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 36, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6123 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 34): On the other hand, the fact that TAAG will be back to LIS also means more competition and TAP will not be the sole player of this route which generated a lot of cash so far. Results will certainly decline although TAP will still have a comfortable position in LAD as the only airline operating daily or more flight to LAD which gives TAP an important edge.
TP was never the only carrier between LIS and LAD, during TAAG's black list period.
Just because TAAG will be flying its own metal to LIS, not much is going to change. It will still be the same 2 carriers and the similar amount of weekly seats between the 2 cities.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 37, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5914 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 36): Just because TAAG will be flying its own metal to LIS, not much is going to change. It will still be the same 2 carriers and the similar amount of weekly seats between the 2 cities.
You are correct. Thanks for the clarifications.
TAP is now finalising its restructuring which will start with profound changes in its operations in Brazil.
As discussed here before, GRU, GIG and BSB will receive red-eye flights. However, TAP will reduce its weekly flights to Brazil from 64 to 54 weekly flights, ie 10 flights will be cut. As a result, TAP will have the following network in Brazil from September -
This means TAP will deeply cut capacity in Brazil. According to source, this is just the "tip of the iceberg" in the changes to be introduced by TAP. Departures to Brazil will change from early morning to afternoon and evening resulting in a complete overhaul in TAP European network and early morning flight will be axed in most European destination leading to savings and cost cuts. TAP will start to operate a new connecting bank in LIS (afternoon and evening) abolishing the morning long-haul connection bank.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 38, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5834 times:
I think concentrating their outbound connecting bank to Brazil in the afternoon and evening is great because it's closer to the African departures thus allowing more efficient connections from other points in Europe to both Africa and Brazil.
However I don't believe that we'll see that many early morning flight cuts for 2 reasons. Those are important for O&D high yield traffic; and they are equaly important for connecting passengers coming out of Brazil and African.
I think what we'll see is some mid-day frequency cuts, and we'll see TP concentrate their flights as much as possible around 2 connecting banks: a southbound bank (Europe -> Brazil&Africa) in the evening, and a northbound bank (Brazil&Africa -> Europe) in the early morning. This is essentially what every other carrier in Europe does, and what they should have been doing all along.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 40, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5468 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 38): I think concentrating their outbound connecting bank to Brazil in the afternoon and evening is great because it's closer to the African departures thus allowing more efficient connections from other points in Europe to both Africa and Brazil
This is a very good point. In fact there is no doubt that the higher utilisation rate of TAP fleet will lead to higher yields and maximisation of hub performance. We will also see TAP improving on other issues such as on-time performance.
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 39): I don't understand why they are doing such thing, since the only poor-performer was LIS-NAT, that AFAIK, kept the same frequencies
I think TAP aims to improve yields. Sometimes a full flight does not mean you are making money. And remember June is high season period while TAP timetable ajustment will be introduced from September.
JJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 706 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5407 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 40): I think TAP aims to improve yields. Sometimes a full flight does not mean you are making money. And remember June is high season period while TAP timetable ajustment will be introduced from September.
Agree, it's smart to aim yields since they must not have the highest ones. However, I still think that NAT should have droped in favour of another destination, or at least, downgraded to 3x weekly.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 42, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5345 times:
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 41): Agree, it's smart to aim yields since they must not have the highest ones. However, I still think that NAT should have droped in favour of another destination, or at least, downgraded to 3x weekly.
According to the news, NAT is going back up to 4x weekly. http://www.opcaoturismo.com/noticia.php?id=15545
I think it's worth considering that some of these destinations may receive subsidies thus making it a viable destination for TP despite the lower LF and/or yields.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 43, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5300 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 42): According to the news, NAT is going back up to 4x weekly.
I have information that NAT goverment spent a huge amount in promotional activities in Portugal. On the other hand, the reduction of charter flighst from Portugal to NAT also meant that most of these traffic would flow to TAP operated flight.
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 41): Agree, it's smart to aim yields since they must not have the highest ones. However, I still think that NAT should have droped in favour of another destination, or at least, downgraded to 3x weekly.
In general we will see 10 weekly flights cut by TAP between Brazil and Portugal.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 44, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5290 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 42): According to the news, NAT is going back up to 4x weekly. http://www.opcaoturismo.com/noticia.php?id=15545
I think it's worth considering that some of these destinations may receive subsidies thus making it a viable destination for TP despite the lower LF and/or yields.
This is good news. I expect NAT to recover in the upcoming winter season when the traffic to Northeast is stronger. I'm sure that NAT (Rio Grande do Norte state government) has promised a good investment in marketing to TP
. I see that in the near future, more airlines will try the most to get marketing efforts from cities, governments and others to back their operations.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 46, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5130 times:
Quoting LatinThug (Reply 45): I've read recently that TAP are considering serving BEY (Beirut) as the next destination in the euro-med area.
Do you think this would be a good option? Could it be viable if the connections to the Brazil flights are good?
Of course TAP did they homework. Brazil has the biggest Lebanese and Syrian community living abroad, mostly in Sao Paulo, and the market Brazil-BEY is therefore not insignificant to the effect that MEA once served Brazil. Now MEA service was overtaken by TK and mainly EK which offer good connections between Brazil and the Middle East. There are more than 6 million Lebanese descendants living in Brazil.
JJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 706 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5056 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 42):
According to the news, NAT is going back up to 4x weekly. http://www.opcaoturismo.com/noticia.php?id=15545
I think it's worth considering that some of these destinations may receive subsidies thus making it a viable destination for TP despite the lower LF and/or yields.
I wrongly had in mind that it was already a 4x weekly service. Anyway, I hope LFs improve now with a bigger/better schedule and better overall market... In fact, I wonder how would be LF if they changed it to LIS-NAT-BEL-NAT-LIS...
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 50, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5035 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 49): I wrongly had in mind that it was already a 4x weekly service. Anyway, I hope LFs improve now with a bigger/better schedule and better overall market... In fact, I wonder how would be LF if they changed it to LIS-NAT-BEL-NAT-LIS...
You will rely on BEL-Europa market as i doubt they will attract leisure traffic the other way. BEL is too limited, and with a little business market.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 52, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4922 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 51): I agree with Lipe and I do not think BEL would work and now is the wrong time to open any new destination.
If they open LIS-POA-NAT-LIS, three days a week, to complement the service to NAT, this might work in my view. POA provides good cargo, good VFR because of immigration, business, leisure, and the only problem is the short runway.
JJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 706 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4804 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 50): You will rely on BEL-Europa market as i doubt they will attract leisure traffic the other way. BEL is too limited, and with a little business market.
Your point is tottaly valid. Maybe, MAO would be a better tag than BEL... Plenty of eco-tourism and also some business...
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
If they open LIS-POA-NAT-LIS, three days a week, to complement the service to NAT, this might work in my view. POA provides good cargo, good VFR because of immigration, business, leisure, and the only problem is the short runway.
Sorry if I got you wrong and you are suggesting this combined with LIS-NAT-LIS 4x weekly, however changing the schedule to the one you mentioned would (as mentioned above) kill LIS-NAT traffic.
In this case the runway wouldn't be a problem since the only departure would be POA-NAT, right?
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 55, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4799 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 54): Sorry if I got you wrong and you are suggesting this combined with LIS-NAT-LIS 4x weekly, however changing the schedule to the one you mentioned would (as mentioned above) kill LIS-NAT traffic.
No, nothing changes on current LIS-NAT.
I'm suggesting 3x weekly LIS-POA with return POA-NAT-LIS
Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 53): Are you really suggesting that NAT bound pax should fly to POA and back???
No, POA alone would take care of the flight LIS-POA. I'm suggesting the stop on the way back , where POA is not able to deal with a non-stop to LIS full loaded.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 58, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4658 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Gayrugbyman (Reply 56): Why do TAP fly to places such as LUX, but not to major cities such as MAN/BHX or EDI? Can there really be a market betwen Portugak and Luxembourg?!
The UK regions desparately need connections to LIS!
TP could use places like MAN and other market in UK and Europe to connect Portugal and also to feed their operations to South America, which could be even increased. The problem is the profitability of such European routes.
Luxemburg and Switzerland both have substantive Portuguese communities which explains why many have problems to connect from Brazil to LUX, GVA or ZRH in the high season as flights are full with O&D.
Btw, do you know what is TAP current network and flight frequency in Scandinavia?
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 58): TP could use places like MAN and other market in UK and Europe to connect Portugal and also to feed their operations to South America, which could be even increased. The problem is the profitability of such European routes.
As you said, the problem would be profitability and the yields of O&D could not make the operation sustainable. But I do think some other markets are interesting especially HAM.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 61, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4349 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting LatinThug (Reply 60): Previously Portugalia had flights to MAN from LIS/OPO but these were stopped a few years back... not sure why. Isnt HAM served by portugalia?
HAM is an interesting destination as there's a Portuguese community.
TP already serve HAM. I believe what Hardi want to say was MAN and not HAM.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 62, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4324 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 61): HAM is an interesting destination as there's a Portuguese community.
TP already serve HAM. I believe what Hardi want to say was MAN and not HAM.
Thanks, Lipe. I meant MAN. And as you point out I agree HAM must be a destination with good returns to TAP and surely some very good feed to Brazil. TAP must get a good share of feed from Germany to GIG.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 66, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4215 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 65): Based on the potential of business to Brazil and some business to US and Angola
Athens
Stavenger (oil)
Manchester
ATH has very poor yields, MAN has potential, while SVG has narrow traffic focused on oil and nowadays is very much a captive market of KLM and to lesser extend LH. I do not think TAP could compete.
KLM offers 20 daily flights between AMS and Norway olone, serving 6 destinations in Norway: Oslo, Sandefjord, Kristiansand, Trondheim, Bergen and Stavanger.
KLM has a firm grip on the Norwegian market, where it is the dominant non-Scandinavian European airline. Overall, KLM serves 14 destinations in Scandinavia which is a strategic market due to the location of AMS hub which has substantive feed from this region.
TP decided also to run LIS-GIG 10 weekly with 3 daylight operations LIS-GIG-LIS on Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays. Therefore, GIG will have 12 weekly flights.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 68, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4203 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 66): ATH has very poor yields, MAN has potential, while SVG has narrow traffic focused on oil and nowadays is very much a captive market of KLM and to lesser extend LH. I do not think TAP could compete.
ATH is a low to middle yield but it's also high yield as wealthy individuals like to visit the country, and TP can attract the traffic to Brazil.
SVG have good links with Rio de Janeiro and Luanda and as far as i know, LH and KL can only offer 2 stops while TP would be able to offer convenient 1 stop service, soon with daylight and overnight flights. No doubt they can compete. It's a good route for the E145, and if also they consider passengers for leisure destinations in Europe, the A320 family can be the next choice.
I know that KL has a good presence, but TP ability to link markets is better considering the oil markets. KL may perform well because of the lack of options.
-South Africa - Not an ex-colony, but has a large Portuguese community.
Luanda and Maputo are doing extremely well as already reported. Are there plans to make Maputo a dedicated flight only and is LAM planning on resuming its Lisbon run now that their sole 767-200 is back from lease with AM?
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 70, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4136 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 68): SVG have good links with Rio de Janeiro and Luanda and as far as i know, LH and KL can only offer 2 stops while TP would be able to offer convenient 1 stop service, soon with daylight and overnight flights. No doubt they can compete. It's a good route for the E145, and if also they consider passengers for leisure destinations in Europe, the A320 family can be the next choice.
I know that KL has a good presence, but TP ability to link markets is better considering the oil markets. KL may perform well because of the lack of options.
Lipe, SVG is a very thin market and LIS is no hub to attract enough traffic from SVG. KLM has the hub location and density which makes SVG possible 4 x day not only because of oil but also because KLM connects SVG to the world: US (main destination), Africa, Asia, Europe and of course Brazil.
Currently TAP only serves OSL with a daily flight. I really do not think TAP would open SVG when some major Scandinavian destinations are not even served daily (see HEL) and there other major missing destinations in Europe including VIE or IST. Not even AF or BA operate SVG. As I said, KLM is currently taking care of SVG-Brazil market.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 68): ATH is a low to middle yield but it's also high yield as wealthy individuals like to visit the country, and TP can attract the traffic to Brazil
ATH suffers high seasonality, focused on leisure, and in fact would attract more traffic to ATH than the other way around. I think reinforcing other flights (see TAP small presence in Scandinavia) would produce more results.
Load factor (average of the two directions) - June/09
Dakar - 73%
Sal - 57%
Bissau - 76%
Casablanca - 65%
Sao Tome - 70%
Luanda - 73%
Maputo - 86%
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 70): Currently TAP only serves OSL with a daily flight. I really do not think TAP would open SVG when some major Scandinavian destinations are not even served daily (see HEL) and there other major missing destinations in Europe including VIE or IST. Not even AF or BA operate SVG. As I said, KLM is currently taking care of SVG-Brazil market.
This is a chance for TP to develop a successful flight. It's very clear that the market could be benefited with a new carrier, and as i mentioned, Norway is a major investor in Brazil, specially oil/gas and shipyards, plus potential leisure to Northeast and also Rio, enough to generate a good demand. Plus TP can feed EWR and LAD also.
As you mentioned, HEL is a larger market, but faces more competition. But TP obtained on the first month an average load of 60% there.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 70): ATH suffers high seasonality, focused on leisure, and in fact would attract more traffic to ATH than the other way around
You can't forget that Greece is not a small and poor country. There's 11 million people and i'm sure at least a small number can fly to Brazil every day. Plus there's a small Greek community in Brazil which generates some VFR.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 72, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4036 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 71): This is a chance for TP to develop a successful flight. It's very clear that the market could be benefited with a new carrier, and as i mentioned, Norway is a major investor in Brazil, specially oil/gas and shipyards, plus potential leisure to Northeast and also Rio, enough to generate a good demand. Plus TP can feed EWR and LAD also.
As you mentioned, HEL is a larger market, but faces more competition. But TP obtained on the first month an average load of 60% there.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 71): You can't forget that Greece is not a small and poor country. There's 11 million people and i'm sure at least a small number can fly to Brazil every day. Plus there's a small Greek community in Brazil which generates some VFR.
ATH, VIE, IST have potential and in fact I think there is a chance for TAP-operated flight. Regarding a thin and narrow market such as SVG in which the only three major players are SK, KL (4 day) and LH (2 day), of which KL already have bulk contracts with the major corporations there is no space for TAP and the flight would be a disaster.
I do not expect TAP in SVG even in the long-run (eg 10 yers from now). As I said, KLM will remain the premier carrier between SVG and Brazil.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 71): Plus TP can feed EWR and LAD also
EWR is well taken care by KLM and LH, while LAD can route pax via FRA with LH (1 x week is more than enough), while KLM and LH take very good care of SVG-Brazil.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 73, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3998 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 72): I do not expect TAP in SVG even in the long-run (eg 10 yers from now). As I said, KLM will remain the premier carrier between SVG and Brazil.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 72): EWR is well taken care by KLM and LH, while LAD can route pax via FRA with LH (1 x week is more than enough), while KLM and LH take very good care of SVG-Brazil.
So we disagree. I do believe there's market considering EWR, LAD, GIG and of course Portugal it self, to run a profitable operation SVG-LIS with ERJ145. That's in my view a very promising route as it allow one-stop daily access to both Rio and Luanda oil markets, plus New York area (yes, there's option thru LH and KL on this) as well as to Portugal.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 74, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3984 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 73): So we disagree. I do believe there's market considering EWR, LAD, GIG and of course Portugal it self, to run a profitable operation SVG-LIS with ERJ145.
Would such a route even be profitable with an E145? I have serious doubts about this. Currently the F100 would likely be the best option, both in terms of economics and comfort.
This also brings us back to the point that I have been saying for a while. Tap/Portugalia seriously needs look towards the E170/175/190/195 to break into thinner routes.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 75, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3914 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting WINGS (Reply 74): Would such a route even be profitable with an E145? I have serious doubts about this. Currently the F100 would likely be the best option, both in terms of economics and comfort.
This also brings us back to the point that I have been saying for a while. Tap/Portugalia seriously needs look towards the E170/175/190/195 to break into thinner routes.
I considered a small plane, but even the F100 is a good equipment to perform such route.
And i agree, considering E-Jets as the entry-level plane for new routes would help TP and any operator in Europe that is looking for growing. Bringing the E175 and the E190 would fit the fleet and prepare a route for bigger equipments like the A320 family.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 76, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3904 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 75): I considered a small plane, but even the F100 is a good equipment to perform such route.
And i agree, considering E-Jets as the entry-level plane for new routes would help TP and any operator in Europe that is looking for growing. Bringing the E175 and the E190 would fit the fleet and prepare a route for bigger equipments like the A320 family.
I also agree. The E-Jets family would be the ideal aircraft for Portugalia's fleet renewal program. The F100 at times can be large for certain routes and this is were a combination of E175/E190 would fit perfectly.
Mind you that I can also see a future role for the ATR 42/72 or Q400 at Portugalia.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 79, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3816 times:
Quoting LatinThug (Reply 77): when is the portugalia fleet renewal actually happening? this has been ongoing for years now... and how many aircraft would the go for?
At this point I'm not so sure there will be a Portugalia left for much longer. The aquisition of PGA has caused nothing but trouble for TAP, and with a huge loss last year and possible loss again this year i think fleet renewal is the last thing on the books. In fact I wonder if TP wouldn't be better off cutting their losses and selling PGA or simply just ending it.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 80, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3818 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 79): At this point I'm not so sure there will be a Portugalia left for much longer. The acquisition of PGA has caused nothing but trouble for TAP, and with a huge loss last year and possible loss again this year i think fleet renewal is the last thing on the books. In fact I wonder if TP wouldn't be better off cutting their losses and selling PGA or simply just ending it.
While I agree that Portugalia have caused Tap some recent headaches, they are not in a position to weigh down Tap. The loss accounted by Portugalia in 2008 was rather minor compare to other divisions within the Tap Group.
Since Embraer have decided to expand into Portugal, with the allocation of two factories in Evora and also via OGMA I would not be at all surprised to see Tap (a state owned airline) opt to renew their fleet in the short-medium term.
I would also place my bet that Portugal will opt to become a risk sharing partner in the upcoming Embraer KC390 (military transport) program.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3885 posts, RR: 9 Reply 81, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3792 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 80): While I agree that Portugalia have caused Tap some recent headaches, they are not in a position to weigh down Tap. The loss accounted by Portugalia in 2008 was rather minor compare to other divisions within the Tap Group.
That wasn't my point. My point is that TP won't be allowed to buy any new aircraft any time soon given the huge losses that they are experiencing.
Quoting WINGS (Reply 80): Since Embraer have decided to expand into Portugal, with the allocation of two factories in Evora and also via OGMA I would not be at all surprised to see Tap (a state owned airline) opt to renew their fleet in the short-medium term.
I agree, TP may buy some Embraer aircraft. Portugalia won't. But it won't happen any time soon. At this point even the A350 order is on shaky ground. There's a fairly strong political move to cancel that order.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 57 Reply 83, posted (3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3402 times:
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 82): But TK already flies LIS-IST, and weren't they a Star Alliance partner already, or soon to be?
I forgot about it. Is TK codesharing with TAP on LIS-IST? I think the major destination missing from TAP network is VIE which is also a Star hub. The only airline flying the route is Sky Europe and the flight has vey bad schedule during the night.
Quoting WINGS (Reply 80): While I agree that Portugalia have caused Tap some recent headaches
Portugalia also increased TAP flexibility by providing 100-seat airplanes to its network which make feasible routes such as OPO-AMS.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7807 posts, RR: 63 Reply 84, posted (3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3302 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting WINGS (Reply 80): Since Embraer have decided to expand into Portugal, with the allocation of two factories in Evora and also via OGMA I would not be at all surprised to see Tap (a state owned airline) opt to renew their fleet in the short-medium term.
Would be very good for both Embraer and even more to TAP. Europe is a very competitive market and many new routes for sure present possible daily loads of less than 100 passengers, a very nice number for E-Jets.
Sponsor Message: 
From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7468 posts, 
From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2491 posts, 
From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 2704 posts, 
From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 706 posts, 
From Greece, joined Sep 2005, 20 posts, 
From United States, joined May 2000, 12047 posts, 
From Spain, joined Dec 2007, 333 posts, 
From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 1588 posts, 
From Portugal, joined Jan 2007, 26 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1667 posts,