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US To Israel: Freeze Settlement, Fly Over Arab St.  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8745 times:

WITHOUT OPENING THIS TO A POLITICAL DEBATE!!!!!!!

The US offered its promise that if Israel decides to Freeze settlement building in the west bank, they will get approval from Arab states to allow Israeli a/c to fly over them.
Currently LY needs to fly south to Eilat and around Saudi Arabia or they head out to the Mediterranean and over Turkey, to get to the Far East. Allowing the a/c to fly over the Arab countries will shorten the trip by 3 - 3.5 hours and lower the costs.

Sounds like an interesting offer!!!

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8707 times:

Would be great!! The extra cost's for fuel are significant for a flight such as TLV-BKK-TLV if you consider the plane needs to go

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
south to Eilat and around Saudi Arabia or they head out to the Mediterranean and over Turkey, to get to the Far East

Hope then can find an agreement on this one

Leo  Smile



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1407 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7932 times:

Since LY is privately owned I don't see the government pushing this.

User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7831 times:

Which Arab countries Israeli commercial aircraft are allowed to fly over?
Egypt and Jordan?
Maybe Oman, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia ?
Also, the day EK starts TLV, Israeli aircraft might be allowed to fly over U.A.E. too.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineJustPlanes From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 886 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7824 times:

So lets say EL AL was allowed to fly over Saudi Arabia... what happens in case of an emergency and a immediate landing needed to be made

User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7656 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 8):
Maybe Oman, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia ?

None of them have any sort of relations with Israel.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 8):
Also, the day EK starts TLV, Israeli aircraft might be allowed to fly over U.A.E. too.

The UAE is too small to make a difference realy.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 8):
Egypt and Jordan?

I think so. After all MS/4D and RJ go to Israel, and LY comes to Egypt (not sure about AMM).

Quoting JustPlanes (Reply 9):

If Israel is allowed to flyover Saudi, then that means there is some recognition to a certain extent. In an emergency, a landing should be allowed. But if Israeli aircraft is banned from transiting Saudi Arabian airspace and ends up there, and needs to land-well-the Saudis have a right to refuse landing on its sovereign territory.


User currently offlineHikesWithEyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 816 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7290 times:



Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
The US offered its promise that if Israel decides to Freeze settlement building in the west bank, they will get approval from Arab states to allow Israeli a/c to fly over them.

Source?



First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7248 times:
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Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 7):
Source?

Mostly in Israel, from this report:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/07/...tlement-freeze/UPI-57001246624648/

UPI: "JERUSALEM, July 3 (UPI) -- The United States is offering to support Israeli air flights over Arab countries if it agrees to a West Bank settlement freeze, Israeli official sources said.

A report in the Yedioth Aharonoth newspaper Friday quoted Israeli government sources saying the deal was raised at a recent meeting between Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak and U.S. Mideast envoy George Mitchell, and has also been a topic of discussion between Israeli and American government officials."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7149 times:

I'd be happy to be wrong, but I doubt it. Overfly rights have long been a political thing and there is no getting around that. You can say that it shouldn't be a political debate and I agree, but the fact is that the existence of Israel will never be accepted by some (most?) Arab states and Israel will never willingly allow itself to not exist nor possibly would it stop building more settlements, never mind the Palestinian issue. Polarised stances like that leave no middle ground. Happy to be wrong here, but there is no solution.


B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6937 times:



Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
WITHOUT OPENING THIS TO A POLITICAL DEBATE!!!!!!!

Boy, that's going to be tough.

I think it's a good idea, but there's kind of an imbalance in payoffs. For Israel, the settlements are a huge issue, and El Al being unable to fly over Arab states a pretty minor one. So it's hard to see why they'd go for such a deal. It would be great for the US, though.

I don't think a simple matter of overflight rights could solve an issue related to who controls land in Israel and Palestine (which is really the subject that keeps the whole conflict going).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6644 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
I think it's a good idea, but there's kind of an imbalance in payoffs. For Israel, the settlements are a huge issue, and El Al being unable to fly over Arab states a pretty minor one. So it's hard to see why they'd go for such a deal. It would be great for the US, though.

I guess overfly rights is just a tiny part of the negotiations package. But how would US benefit from any of this? They have no problem overflying most of the countries that matter on US-ME routes.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 5):
Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 8):
Also, the day EK starts TLV, Israeli aircraft might be allowed to fly over U.A.E. too.

The UAE is too small to make a difference realy.

Besides you're not supposed to be allowed into UAE if you have ever been to Israel, let alone if you're Israeli citizen.


User currently offlineS.P.A.S. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 966 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6254 times:

All North African countries deny over-flights to El Al. The TLV-GRU-TLV flights must fly all the Mediterranean Sea and exit Europe via Portugal. Crossing Africa the distance is around 5750Nm and with the detour, close to 6500Nm. That's a big difference indeed.


"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineDAL763ER From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6239 times:
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Quoting Borism (Reply 10):
Besides you're not supposed to be allowed into UAE if you have ever been to Israel, let alone if you're Israeli citizen.

Is that still in place? Does it work vice-versa as well? I've always questioned myself: why would a simple tourist like me or any one else not be allowed into the UAE/Israel after visiting Israel/UAE?



Where aviation is not the side show, it's the main show!!!
User currently offlineELAL772 From Israel, joined Jun 2008, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6184 times:



Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 12):

Quoting Borism (Reply 10):
Besides you're not supposed to be allowed into UAE if you have ever been to Israel, let alone if you're Israeli citizen.

Is that still in place? Does it work vice-versa as well? I've always questioned myself: why would a simple tourist like me or any one else not be allowed into the UAE/Israel after visiting Israel/UAE?

Tourists are allowed in to Israel with any stamp from any country though stamps from some countries might cause some more questioning.
The UAE stamp will absolutely NOT deny your entry in to Israel, it hardly excites any agent at the immigration posts.

I know of Israelis who have been to Dubai, some with Israeli passports and some with foreign passports.


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2217 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6104 times:



Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
The US offered its promise that if Israel decides to Freeze settlement building in the west bank, they will get approval from Arab states to allow Israeli a/c to fly over them.

Not exactly. The US government cannot promise that they "will get approval" from the Arab states for this. They can try, of course, but they cannot give any guarantees.

From what I've read in the news, the Arab governments have so far answered with a firm no to this proposal. I believe it's highly unlikely that they will agree to this.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 5):
Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 8):
Maybe Oman, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia ?

None of them have any sort of relations with Israel.

Not officially, but Israeli government officials have visited Morocco on several occasions.

Quoting Borism (Reply 10):
Besides you're not supposed to be allowed into UAE if you have ever been to Israel, let alone if you're Israeli citizen.

The UAE will not turn away visitors with Israeli entry stamps in their passports.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 12):
Is that still in place? Does it work vice-versa as well? I've always questioned myself: why would a simple tourist like me or any one else not be allowed into the UAE/Israel after visiting Israel/UAE?

Israel will allow visitors with any stamp. Israel recognizes the right of the UAE (and all other Arab states) to exist and have no problems with receiving visitors who have been to these countries.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineCastropRauxel From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6014 times:



Quoting Borism (Reply 10):
Besides you're not supposed to be allowed into UAE if you have ever been to Israel, let alone if you're Israeli citizen.

Allow me to correct that statement and that common mistake:
Not only is this not true, but Israeli passengers are actually allowed to transit the UAE when flying EK. same goes by the way to Qatar and Bahrain. tickets to Asian and Australian destinations with EK, EY, QR and GF are openly sold in Israel through any travel agent and to great prices. passengers fly with IZ/RJ to AMM and connect there to EK (and the others) flights with noooooo problem.

Quoting ELAL772 (Reply 13):
The UAE stamp will absolutely NOT deny your entry in to Israel, it hardly excites any agent at the immigration posts.

I know of Israelis who have been to Dubai, some with Israeli passports and some with foreign passports.

 checkmark 


User currently onlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1294 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5261 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 3):
Which Arab countries Israeli commercial aircraft are allowed to fly over?
Egypt and Jordan?

Only Egypt and Jordan. With Jordan Israel has good aviation relations: daily flights on TLV-AMM route and meny Israelis flying to the far east with Royal Jordanian. I remember when an RJ A313 scaduled to Amman landed in TLV from some reason, more then 50% of the passengers were Israelis.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 3):
the day EK starts TLV

Not gonna happen in the near future. EK will lose more arabs on it's flights then it gain Israelis.

Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 15):
Not only is this not true, but Israeli passengers are actually allowed to transit the UAE when flying EK. same goes by the way to Qatar and Bahrain

I don't know about UAE or Bahrain, but I know some Israelis do fly via Qatar. I have a friend who flew that way to BKK, it is a long journey: bus from Tel Aviv to AMM (about 2.5 hours), then flight to Qatar and from there to Thailand, but you are not allowed to leave the airport, because you can not enter the country Itself. I don't know about other people, but I would not like to get stuck from any reason in a country were I am not welcome.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26853 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5246 times:



Quoting JustPlanes (Reply 4):
So lets say EL AL was allowed to fly over Saudi Arabia... what happens in case of an emergency and a immediate landing needed to be made

Any civilian A/C of any country should be allowed to land and refuel or put passengers on another A/C if need be. It should be considered a ''humanitarian'' issue and not a political one.


User currently offlineCastroprauxel From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5190 times:



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 16):
bus from Tel Aviv to AMM

BUS?! I did this with RJ to AMM, after a couple of hours QR to DOH and there I didn't have time to leave the airport even if it was possible since I only had 50 minutes to my flight to BKK. the way to Thailand was never this easy nor quick (nor cheap!), and I was there 4 times - twice via FRA and once direct. and by he way - it felt great at DOH. the local QR staff are great and they were lovely the entire time.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 14):

Not exactly. The US government cannot promise that they "will get approval" from the Arab states for this. They can try, of course, but they cannot give any guarantees

The major and most accredited newspaper is Israel printed this as the headline is its weekend issue and according to it, USA already got the consent of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries to give Israeli airlines the authorization to fly over their airspace.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 14):
Israeli government officials have visited Morocco on several occasions

Not aviation related so I won't go into it much - just say that in the past Israel had diplomatic offices in Morocco, Oman and Tunisia.


User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5175 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
I think it's a good idea, but there's kind of an imbalance in payoffs. For Israel, the settlements are a huge issue, and El Al being unable to fly over Arab states a pretty minor one. So it's hard to see why they'd go for such a deal.

Right. I think the whole issue is about an indication that the region can acheive peace in case this condition is met. That's just a guess though.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 3):
Egypt and Jordan?

Both are dead-ended if taken alone. Jordan is bordered by Saudi Arabia and Syria, and Egypt is surrounded by Libya and Sudan, all of which won't let the aircraft go past their borders.



A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
User currently onlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1294 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5153 times:



Quoting Castroprauxel (Reply 18):
BUS?! I

Yep, many people my age rether save money of the TLV-AMM flight and take a bus, there are buses from Tel Aviv, Haifa and Nezarath.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineCastropRauxel From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5107 times:



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 20):
save money of the TLV-AMM flight

Save the money how? you buy a full ticket to begin with, TLV-AMM-DOH-BKK. I'm not sure that breaking this up and taking just the QR flights with the "added bonus" of taking the bus to AMM would save that much, especially when this is a one ticket sold to you as TLV-BKK, and not two tickets which you buy separately and combine by yourself. the fare is calculated all together and the entire ticket is issued sold by IZ (now only IZ are used as feeder for the QR flights and not RJ anymore) including all QR sectors. moreover, IZ even changed schedules to AMM to make a smooth connection to the QR flights after signing a contract with them.

Bottom line, I don't think the bus would worth the few bucks saved - and after all we're here to fly  Smile


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2217 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4924 times:



Quoting Castroprauxel (Reply 18):
The major and most accredited newspaper is Israel printed this as the headline is its weekend issue and according to it, USA already got the consent of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries to give Israeli airlines the authorization to fly over their airspace.

Well, this is different from what I read in the Jerusalem Post and Arutz-7 before the weekend. I saw an article today that Saudi Arabia may allow the IAF to overfly its territory on bombing raids to Iran, but civilian flights, no.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...3546&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132190

Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 21):
Save the money how? you buy a full ticket to begin with, TLV-AMM-DOH-BKK.

My guess is that air fares are much lower in Jordan due to a lot of factors. I can see the same in Scandinavia. Air fares have traditionally been much lower in Sweden than in Norway. A few years ago, my parents were flying to Argentina and they saved almost 300 dollars per person by taking a bus to Gothenburg instead of flying from Oslo. The only difference between those tickets was that the first leg was GOT-CPH on SAS instead of OSL-CPH on SAS.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineCastropRauxel From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4489 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Saudi Arabia may allow the IAF to overfly its territory

Completely unrelated topic.


User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1803 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4381 times:



Quoting JustPlanes (Reply 4):
So lets say EL AL was allowed to fly over Saudi Arabia... what happens in case of an emergency and a immediate landing needed to be made

They will land and probably be kept under heavy military surveillance until they can be sent back to israel. El Al will have to check whether Saudi law will not hinder that, and get guarantees from the Saudi government.

Come to think of it, I think it would be better that this deal does not go through. Once Israel is cleared to Saudi airspace, its not hard for them to hide a jet fighter over or under an airliner, or to create fake flights and send military aircrafts instead of airliners, and Saudis might get paranoid and trigger happy when El Al enters their airspace.

I hope it can work out though, but these are things that have to be kept in mind. Personally I dont think it will work out, for military reasons. That is assuming there is a state of tension between the two states. Maybe thats not the case, they might be actually having regular meetings, and the hostility might just be a facade to satisfy the arab street.



rolf
25 RUHFlyer : I don't think this is a minor issue because its harder to connect TLV to places like SIN, GRU, and JNB because of these fly over rights. And I think i
26 Ptugarin : With EL AL and it's security, wouldn't they be reluctant to overfly Arab countries until their governments guarantee some kind of protection against t
27 AirGabon : But this a present question as what would happen now, in case of an emergency, while they are flying around Saudi Arabia and Gulf peninsula?? Where t
28 SOBHI51 : What can a terrorist on the ground do to a plane flying at over 35000 feet?
29 RUHFlyer : Terrorism in their airspace ? are you serious ?!
30 Post contains images RUHFlyer : I think they would land Saudi Arabia. I mean think about it, the issue becomes humanitarian rather than political. One other thing that wasn't discus
31 RJpieces : Just out of curiousity, what does the writing on the map above Israel say? Do the maps indicate "Israel" or "Tel Aviv" or something like that, or do
32 SOBHI51 : In the first map "Larnaca, Beirut and Cairo" Second map "Tripoli and Riyadh"
33 OD-BWH : I like the airshow map in Arabic onboard BA . I thought BA suspended flights to RUH in favor of BD. As in what? That's the most stupid thing I've eve
34 AlexEU : Are LY aircraft allowed to fly over Gaza strip? What about LY flights to Johannesburg? I wonder if they really fly via Red Sea (in order to avoid Suda
35 TheCommodore : It is political unfortunately and until that situation is sorted I have a personal opinion that things should remain as there are. Only in an emergenc
36 Post contains links RUHFlyer : On SV Israel/Palestinian territory is ignored On BA its shows TLV in arabic and english (not on the one I took though) BA restarted flights to RUH an
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