Airevents From Germany, joined Jan 2002, 590 posts, RR: 3 Posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14046 times:
Announced today in a memo to the employees, LH will stop serving Portland, OR (PDX) effective 14 September 2009. Sad the route could not be sustained. Well, I guess the opening of Seattle didn´t help...
1 Flashmeister: Kinda saw that one coming... too bad, though. It provided some of the more interesting spotting here. Guess we should get used to Q400 ... CRJ ... 737
2 ItalianFlyer: Any hope of this being seasonal? This may also speak volumes about the *A's relative weakness in the Pacific Northwest vs SkyTeam and their cozy relat
3 ThegreatRDU: Aw man this really prestigious for PDX Yeah me too, it sort was an oddball route. PDX has DL to AMS, and NRT....there are transborder and Hawaii fligh
4 MAH4546: PDX-AMS came after Lufthansa, way after. And there were rumors that it was in jeopardy after the summer as well.
5 LAXintl: I guess this explains why LH was offering some cheaper West Coast-Europe C class seats routed via PDX. (Incidentally both SEA and DEN routings have su
6 Stitch: I have been always under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that PDX used incentives to lure the service from an originally planned SEA launch - since
7 Lhpdx: This is terrible news for Portland..............
8 Cschleic: Not mistaken at all. They received free landing fees or something like that for an initial period. And local businesses pledged traffic (Adidas, Frei
9 Dellatorre: The american market, among with other ones like Europe, is on a freefall since the crisis and I don't think it will recover soon. LH service to SEA pr
10 Lhpdx: At the rate PDX is losing international flights, we should be down to none by 2011....
11 Juventus: Why did LH choose Portland instead of Vegas or Phoenix???
12 AirframeAS: Add an A320 or A319 in between there.... I disagree. We still have QX doing Canadian flights, IIRC. PHX didn't justify any longer after 2003 because
13 Viscount724: AC started YYC-PDX nonstop service last month, once daily with a CRJ.
14 Nwaesc: ...To say nothing of DL's AMS trip... That aside, technically you're absolutely correct. However, at the risk of getting in a semantics debate, there
15 Lhpdx: I really would like to thanks Lufthansa for putting little Portland on the international map, even if it was for a short amount of time...........I gu
16 AirframeAS: I agree with that. I was only saying in general, however.
17 Yegbey01: I would love for this plane to be used on an FRA-YEG next year....YEG has been trying to get LH to serve the market
18 Lhpdx: When the economy in Oregon improves, what are the chances of Lufthansa returning since it now flies to Seattle?
19 AirframeAS: IMO, I don't think they'll comeback.
20 Stitch: Yes before LH launched SEA-FRA I used to shuttle down on a UAX EMB-120 and catch the PDX-FRA flight. Was more convenient then heading to SFO or LAX (
21 Doug_or: Indeed, if they planned to I would assume that they would have made it a seasonal cut (and then make the change permanent if the economy didn't impro
22 PITrules: Didn't PDX get upgraded to the A-346 at one point? That was before the AMS flight however. Perhaps PDX would be a good summer market for Condor.
23 Bmacleod: I don't think Portland is big enough for LH service bigger than A343s so a A346 would be a surprise but not as surprising as a 744....
24 SeaBosDca: Too bad! I just flew into PDX on Wednesday and saw LH's A343 sitting there, shiny as ever... If there is a silver lining, it's that it's more likely t
25 Kwbl: This is terrible news for PDX. The route had been quite successful since starting in 2003. Even after the incentives dried up. The combination of a ba
26 BigGSFO: Perhaps when the economy improves we could see BA to London? Bummer about us losing LH.
27 HAL: Each morning there's two HA 763's going to Hawaii! But yes, it's sad. I flew a UA 747 from PDX to NRT and back in June 1983, but now that's long gone
28 BlatantEcho: oh man, that's the worst aviation news out of Portland in years.... Lufti showed all the faith in the world in that route, sometimes having to upgrade
29 Lhpdx: I think the Port should have stayed with the basics..1 flight to Asia, Mexico and Europe..........Just promote and substain what we had in the beginni
30 Ramprat74: I have a feeling, there will be zero flights to Europe this winter from PDX. We get a lot of SFO connections from the FRA-PDX flight. I guess they won
31 Lexy: A market its size already has more international service than it really "should" have. The economy up there is pushing the flights but I doubt the de
32 Yegbey01: Wow....Canadians travel abroad WAAAAAY more than Americans do. YEG still sends a big chunk of its Europe (and beyond) bound pax to YYC where they con
33 MAH4546: Airports can't really operate like that. They can't stop an airline from starting a service absent lack of slots/gate space, and they have to act for
34 Ml007: Are we absolutely positive about this? I used to be an RSA for Lufty in PDX and I still have some contacts over there. I just talked to one of their m
35 N174UA: No, you're right on about that. Smaller markets need to do that in order to attract the service. Just over 6 years....not really short. First flight
36 RwSEA: What a bummer for Portland! This one stings hard. The problem is, Portland just doesn't have a strong business base, and the city seems to be hit part
37 AirframeAS: They may be full for the next three weeks, but remember...fares fluctuate (sp?) daily.... If LH is making fares heavily discounted (for example), the
38 LAXdude1023: No no. This will actually give DL quite a boost. Since DL now operates the only two transoceanic flights from PDX, I imagine that PDX will be come a
39 TF39: What a bummer. I love hearing the lovely sound in the late morning-early afternoon of the 340 over my house just SE shy of BTG One note here - the Por
40 Cschleic: It ran as a 340-600 for a few days in 2007 but that was just a substitution. There aren't any photos in the database. There's a thread that had photo
41 Usdcaguy: This is quite possible; we shouldn't forget that AMS provides almost as many connections as FRA on any given day and that Schiphol is one of the worl
42 Cubsrule: I do think it was a case of who was going to blink first, and the loss of LH will certainly improve the performance of the AMS flight. DL is in sort
43 SLCUT2777: The percentage of Canadians holding passports is roughly 3 times the percentage of Americans (over 60% vs.over 20% and I doubt the Western Hemisphere
44 Lhpdx: With all of this talks about Portland losing this serice, I'm really surprised that this had not made the local news.....................
45 HT: Still bookable on LH's website for random dates in October 2009; a/c is shown as being an A333, not A343. -HT
46 WILCO737: Maybe the system is a little slow? I don't know. but it would be bad if people are still able to book if the flight does not exist anymore. wilco737
47 MAH4546: Only Y and B fares are bookable. The rest has been zero'd out after September 13th.
48 Atlanta: It could be an interesting route for Condor. Is Condor still owned by LH? Does BA already serve Seattle? Atlanta
49 BA: No, Thomas Cook bought Lufthansa's stake recently. Yes, 13x weekly right now.[Edited 2009-07-04 12:48:47]
50 WILCO737: Condor is not LH anymore. There are still some crews of LH, but they can come back to LH mainline if needed. I have flown to PDX only once, but only
51 Lhpdx: Has anyone else heard anything about an official announcement beside the guy that started this tread?
52 MAH4546: Flight is zero'd out in all but Y and B fares after September 13th. That pretty much confirms it. The Y and B fares will be zero'd out shortly.
53 Doug_or: You know, people like to talk about how the flights available at SEA affect PDX and (vice vera), but I wonder how much it actually matters? I don't kn
54 BlatantEcho: As doug_or said, I sure as heck won't be flying to SEA to connect to Europe now. I guess I am resigned to take the DL flight to AMS, but if AMS is not
55 BigGSFO: I was on Sauvie Island earlier today and saw the LH flight climb out and turn north. Of course I pointed it it out to my friends and told them that th
56 MSYtristar: Ha, funny, I saw the inbound 343 from FRA yesterday while hiking up Stone Mountain near Atlanta and pointed it out to my brother. Do you think he car
57 StuckInCA: You mean that you'd never drive there or never connect there? A high speed rail link between the Seattle metro and Portland would sure be nice.
58 SANFan: What I'm wondering is, when LH started the SEA-FRA service at the end of March, 2008, was that the first official "notice" to PDX? There were those he
59 Pictues: Does no one read the news that states different from the opening message?????? this may not happen but any route is liable to be chopped of course bu
60 BlatantEcho: still fully bookable for november on lufthansa.com I have no sources other than a.net, can we get confirmation either way? if it was cut, I guess they
61 WILCO737: I just tried mid November to mid December and it works fine: Fluginformation Flug LH468 Abflug 10:05 am Mo 16 Nov Frankfurt, Frankfurt International,
62 SANFan: Huh? What do you mean? What "news that states different..."? There are a few things mentioned by others in this thread (see below) that support the s
63 HT: If I combine the FRA-PDX nonstop with a return flight via SEA/ORD/DEN (or vice versa); I get (discounted) fare class "M" displayed for flight LH 468
64 WILCO737: Does it make any difference? I must say, I am not familiar with booking classes, as I mostly travel standby. But the flight shows up as LH468/469. Do
65 SANFan: I was just asking in light of Mark's post: Since I still don't know the sources of any of these availability searches -- a reservation system such as
67 Dreamflight767: One of my colleagues was scheduled on this flight for a trip in October. Last week LH contacted him to provide his new travel itinerary (which takes h
68 Yyzflyboy: Don't forget you also have PDX to YVR to efficiently connect to a host of international cities too - ICN, TPE, HKG, FRA, LHR, and AMS to name a few.
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 2520 posts, RR: 3 Reply 70, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5261 times:
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 69): Yeah, the real questions will be do PDX-AMS and connect onward, or do PDX-ORD and connect from there.
I think it will be worth it to fly to ORD or similar to avoid DL and get on an international carrier.
DL's 767 service is quite poor, but I still think it's preferrable to connecting at ORD/IAD/JFK/ATL/EWR, etc. Not only is the flying time much shorter, but you avoid all the congestion and weather delays. I'm thinking I'll either connect in SEA or just deal with DL's service.
LambertMan From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1757 posts, RR: 47 Reply 71, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5288 times:
Lets go over the chain of events here:
October 15, 2007:
NW announces Portland-Amstedam
November 5, 2007:
LH announces Seattle-Frankfurt
Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 29): I think the Port should have stayed with the basics..1 flight to Asia, Mexico and Europe..........Just promote and substain what we had in the beginning....Adding a new flight to AMS was a slap -in-the-face to Lufthansa who took a great risk starting service here....
I would venture to say that they did treat that as a slap in the face and that the writing was almost immediately on the wall.....and in permanent marker.
Let's be honest. Even Portland residents, no matter what kind of rose-colored glasses they are wearing, knew that one of these flights was going to end up getting axed.
The economy will be a convenient excuse as will the incentives running out, but Portland simply hamstrung itself by swinging the same sweet deal for NW as it did for LH. I am unconvinced that NW looked at AMS-PDX and saw a market that was ripe and needed no help to enter....
As Mark said its the Airport Administration's duty to promote competition, but at the same time, any realist and a good airport man would know he's overstepping Portland's bounds by inviting competition for LH.
In the end though, if the market can support a daily to Europe it can and the DL flight will serve as a slightly less prestigious operator. I
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2464 posts, RR: 11 Reply 74, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4268 times:
How about that, A.netters. We've had a several-day discussion on the topic BEFORE the announcement, thanks to Airevents. That's what this board is all about!
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
Alexinwa From United States, joined Sep 2000, 910 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3793 times:
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 57): A high speed rail link between the Seattle metro and Portland would sure be nice.
Washington State is in the running for a big sum of money that will do just that. High-speed rail between Vancouver, BC and Eugene. It would replace Amtrak cascades.
I hate to see LH pull out of PDX, just as it will be a sad day in SEA when the last SK flight leaves. I guess the only plus of this has already been mentioned:
DL will keep AMS
SEA may gain a little from this
I'm personally waiting for UA to drop SEA-NRT, I feel it coming. UA is nothing in SEA compared to 15 years ago. How the mighty have fallen.
EVA777SEA From United States, joined Aug 2006, 454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3662 times:
Quoting Alexinwa (Reply 75): I'm personally waiting for UA to drop SEA-NRT, I feel it coming. UA is nothing in SEA compared to 15 years ago. How the mighty have fallen.
Seeing how this has yet to happen despite it being rumored here for years, and the fact that it is still around in these tough economic times, tell me that this flight is not going anywhere. It was also rumored that the flight would be downgraded to a 763, which also didn't happen.
Quoting LambertMan (Reply 71): October 15, 2007:
NW announces Portland-Amstedam
November 5, 2007:
LH announces Seattle-Frankfurt
I'd say that is more of a coincidence than anything else. Lufthansa was not the only carrier to offer service to SEA from Europe beginning around that time.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10659 posts, RR: 9 Reply 79, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3634 times:
Quoting Doug_or (Reply 53): Yes you can make an easy connection to SEA... but there are connecting flights to Europe that go through ORD, SFO, SLC, DTW, MSP, EWR, JFK, PHL, and ATL, too.
To most points in Europe, a connection via SEA is at least 1,000 miles shorter and a few hours faster than a connection via the other hubs you mention. SLC is a little shorter than the others but it doesn't have much Europe service.
CGKings317 From United States, joined Nov 2005, 73 posts, RR: 0 Reply 80, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3319 times:
While I am personally sad to see this go as a PDXer, I am not surprised since the economic and business situation both locally and globally is in the tank. A sizable majority of airlines in the world are in slicing-and-dicing mode with respect to routes and frequencies.
My hope is that once the economy improves and the airlines' bottom line improves that healthful and sustained intercontinental service can be sucessful again from PDX on economic merits.
Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 77): I'd say that is more of a coincidence than anything else. Lufthansa was not the only carrier to offer service to SEA from Europe beginning around that time.
Like I was taught in stats class: correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
Attempt to prosper everyone
~CGKings317
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Doug_or From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2727 posts, RR: 4 Reply 81, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2951 times:
Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 77):
Seeing how this has yet to happen despite it being rumored here for years, and the fact that it is still around in these tough economic times, tell me that this flight is not going anywhere. It was also rumored that the flight would be downgraded to a 763, which also didn't happen.
The times I've checked on this flight economy seemed alright, but front cabin bookings seemed consistently light. I have no idea how overall yields are, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this flight go.
ZKNBS From United States, joined Jun 2009, 6 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2575 times:
Quoting LambertMan (Reply 71): would venture to say that they did treat that as a slap in the face and that the writing was almost immediately on the wall.....and in permanent marker.
Let's be honest. Even Portland residents, no matter what kind of rose-colored glasses they are wearing, knew that one of these flights was going to end up getting axed.
The economy will be a convenient excuse as will the incentives running out, but Portland simply hamstrung itself by swinging the same sweet deal for NW as it did for LH. I am unconvinced that NW looked at AMS-PDX and saw a market that was ripe and needed no help to enter....
As Mark said its the Airport Administration's duty to promote competition, but at the same time, any realist and a good airport man would know he's overstepping Portland's bounds by inviting competition for LH.
In the end though, if the market can support a daily to Europe it can and the DL flight will serve as a slightly less prestigious operator. I
Bingo! My thoughts exactly. The PDX market is too small to support two European nonstop flights. The Port effectively killed this flight by that single action. The first month after the Northwest flight came online DLH's load factor dropped by 20%. Worse than that is the fact that now the small pool of premium business traffic was spilt between both carriers and Northwest flooded the market with cheap fares to gain market share, result was that yields for both carriers got trashed. Even without the economic collapse I believe this route would have failed it would have just taken longer. This is a lesson in basic airline economics that the Port should have understood, very dissappointing they did not. Perhaps they should hire someone who does understand this.
Aaway From United States, joined Oct 2003, 1181 posts, RR: 15 Reply 83, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1905 times:
These stats were published in two recent issues of the Portland Business Journal:
From July 6th, 2009:
International passenger traffic at Portland International Airport has fallen nearly 30 percent this year following a 2008 in which international traffic decreased 24 percent.
Lufthansa in particular has struggled. Through May, the German carrier had 42 percent fewer passengers this year compared to 2008. In 2008, its passenger totals sank 12 percent.
From July 17th, 2009:
...Even commercial passenger carriers, which carry far less cargo, have seen declines in cargo tons.
Freight volumes for Lufthansa German Airlines, one of the larger cargo carriers of the passenger airlines serving PDX,is down a whopping 58.6 percent to 1,088 tons this year. Lufthansa plans to halt its nonstop passenger service from PDX to Frankfurt effective Sept. 13.
"The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping the old ones, which ramify...into every corner of our minds"
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10659 posts, RR: 9 Reply 84, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1830 times:
Quoting ZKNBS (Reply 82): The PDX market is too small to support two European nonstop flights.
It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe -- AC/BA/LH/KL and leisure carrier AirTransat (TS). Current peak summer schedules:
LHR - AC 12 per week (7 333 and 5 763), BA 7 per week (763)
LGW - TS 3 per week (332)
GLA - TS 1 per week (332, continues to LGW)
MAN - TS 2 per week (332)
FRA - AC 7 per week (333), LH 7 per week (343), TS 1 per week (332)
AMS - KL 5 per week (332), TS 1 per week
CDG - TS 1 per week (332)
MUC - TS 1 per week (332)
Total 48 nonstops a week, equivalent of almost 7 daily, to 8 destinations. There may also be a British leisure carrier serving YYC during the summer, not certain.
Aaway From United States, joined Oct 2003, 1181 posts, RR: 15 Reply 85, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1776 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe
Not really that strange at all - geographic isolation from other large metro areas and oil industry income.
"The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping the old ones, which ramify...into every corner of our minds"
Yegbey01 From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1324 posts, RR: 3 Reply 86, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1715 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): otal 48 nonstops a week, equivalent of almost 7 daily, to 8 destinations. There may also be a British leisure carrier serving YYC during the summer, not certain.
Well...
1) Canadians travel abroad way more often than Americans
2) YYC is the gateway to the rockies - ski and summer mountain destination
3) many of the TS, MOnarch, MyAirways, etc... flights originate in YVR
4) YYC gets a significant number of pax from other cities in Western Canada
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4371 posts, RR: 7 Reply 87, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1416 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe -- AC/BA/LH/KL and leisure carrier AirTransat (TS). Current peak summer schedules:
LGW - TS 3 per week (332)
GLA - TS 1 per week (332, continues to LGW)
MAN - TS 2 per week (332)
6 carriers, there is GSM as well weekly to LGW/MAN/GLA/DUB, all shared with YVR
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 1587 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1364 times:
What I don't get is why airlines don't like ( or it is not economical ) to fly 2 or three times a week if demand isn't there to fill more planes. 3 times a week Portland, 4 times Seattle must work out, and give more full paying passengers than 7 times Seattle only.
Hywel From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 436 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1280 times:
When the route first got launched, I seem to remember reading that a main factor was the cargo, and LH were making most of their profit off cargo on this route. So maybe the demand for cargo is to blame for the service being cancelled?
SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3693 posts, RR: 14 Reply 90, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1272 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe -- AC/BA/LH/KL and leisure carrier AirTransat (TS). Current peak summer schedules:
LHR - AC 12 per week (7 333 and 5 763), BA 7 per week (763)
LGW - TS 3 per week (332)
GLA - TS 1 per week (332, continues to LGW)
MAN - TS 2 per week (332)
FRA - AC 7 per week (333), LH 7 per week (343), TS 1 per week (332)
AMS - KL 5 per week (332), TS 1 per week
CDG - TS 1 per week (332)
MUC - TS 1 per week (332)
Total 48 nonstops a week, equivalent of almost 7 daily, to 8 destinations. There may also be a British leisure carrier serving YYC during the summer, not certain.
Keep in mind the percentage of Canadians holding passports is perhaps 3 times or greater what the percentage of Americans, and Canadians are much more likely to travel abroad. The Wasatch Front (metro-SLC) is about 2.2+ million and it only has CDG service to Europe, and by the stroke of political luck an NRT flight. But prior to 2008 it had NOTHING outside North America (Canada/Mexico only).
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Doug_or From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2727 posts, RR: 4 Reply 91, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1169 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 88): What I don't get is why airlines don't like ( or it is not economical ) to fly 2 or three times a week if demand isn't there to fill more planes. 3 times a week Portland, 4 times Seattle must work out, and give more full paying passengers than 7 times Seattle only.
There's no convenience to that. A non stop is more convenient than a connection, but [almost] no one is going to change the date of travel just to get a non-stop. The chance of a daily working for someone is 100%, the chance of a 5x weekly is pretty good (as long as the days with non flights are chosen carefully), but at 3x or 4x times a week, the chance that there will be a flight that works for the customers outbound AND return journey becomes very small, and the competitive advantage of the non-stop shrinks away.
In markets where there are no or few options (remote Pacific islands, some African destinations), this can work, but customers in SEA and PDX have plenty of other ways to get to Europe.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13253 posts, RR: 14 Reply 92, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 898 times:
Quoting Doug_or (Reply 91): but at 3x or 4x times a week, the chance that there will be a flight that works for the customers outbound AND return journey becomes very small, and the competitive advantage of the non-stop shrinks away.
As someone who lives in a city with relatively infrequent nonstops in a variety of markets, I disagree completely. Getting a nonstop both ways is the clear first choice, but getting a nonstop one way is equally clearly superior to connecting both ways.
BigGSFO From United States, joined Jun 2005, 2215 posts, RR: 7 Reply 93, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 862 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 92): As someone who lives in a city with relatively infrequent nonstops in a variety of markets, I disagree completely. Getting a nonstop both ways is the clear first choice, but getting a nonstop one way is equally clearly superior to connecting both ways.
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