Airevents From Germany, joined Jan 2002, 593 posts, RR: 3 Posted (5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14065 times:
Announced today in a memo to the employees, LH will stop serving Portland, OR (PDX) effective 14 September 2009. Sad the route could not be sustained. Well, I guess the opening of Seattle didn´t help...
Flashmeister From United States, joined Apr 2000, 2572 posts, RR: 11 Reply 1, posted (5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 13975 times:
Kinda saw that one coming... too bad, though. It provided some of the more interesting spotting here. Guess we should get used to Q400 ... CRJ ... 737 ... Q400 ... CRJ ... 737 ...
ItalianFlyer From United States, joined Nov 2007, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 13827 times:
Any hope of this being seasonal?
This may also speak volumes about the *A's relative weakness in the Pacific Northwest vs SkyTeam and their cozy relationship with AS. I dont know this as 'fact', I am just throwing it out there as superficial conjecture.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12163 posts, RR: 22 Reply 5, posted (5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 13752 times:
I guess this explains why LH was offering some cheaper West Coast-Europe C class seats routed via PDX. (Incidentally both SEA and DEN routings have such similar lower pricing)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 16075 posts, RR: 64 Reply 6, posted (5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 13718 times:
I have been always under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that PDX used incentives to lure the service from an originally planned SEA launch - since UA was arguably stronger at the time in SEA than PDX and drew from a larger metropolitan area.
Cschleic From United States, joined Feb 2002, 621 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 months 6 days ago) and read 13561 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6): I have been always under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that PDX used incentives to lure the service from an originally planned SEA launch
Not mistaken at all. They received free landing fees or something like that for an initial period. And local businesses pledged traffic (Adidas, Freightliner, Nike, etc.). Major bummer. I've flown it four times and was very convenient, plus planes always full. This summer it's only five days/week rather than usual daily. Much nicer to fly one long route from PDX to FRA, then a short connection to wherever, rather than two or three longer flights to the same city.
The SEA - FRA route certainly can't help much. Plus they fly YVR - FRA as well as SFO and LAX. That's a lot of west coast cities.
Like said above, will reduce the spotting variety. Mexicana pulled out a while back as well. That leaves only Air Canada Jazz and some cargo carriers for the foreign airlines. With the shift from NW 330's to DL 767's to AMS and NRT, plane variety is down, too.
The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion.
Dellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 947 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (5 months 6 days ago) and read 13540 times:
The american market, among with other ones like Europe, is on a freefall since the crisis and I don't think it will recover soon.
LH service to SEA probably won't servive much longer along with MCO. The margins are smaller then ever even strong markets like JFK, ORD and LAX are getting hit. Unfortunately this is the fate of some weak routes. DL's LAX-SYD & GRU days are number for examples.
Nwaesc From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1898 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (5 months 6 days ago) and read 13368 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12): I disagree. We still have QX doing Canadian flights, IIRC.
...To say nothing of DL's AMS trip...
That aside, technically you're absolutely correct. However, at the risk of getting in a semantics debate, there's a big difference between a Dash 8 to YVR and a flight to FRA.
Lhpdx From United States, joined Dec 2006, 249 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 months 6 days ago) and read 13341 times:
I really would like to thanks Lufthansa for putting little Portland on the international map, even if it was for a short amount of time...........I guess in the end with Seattle being so close, Portland truly cannot handle or support international flights long term.............Maybe they need to build a highspeed train that connects Portland to Sea/tac.....................
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 16, posted (5 months 6 days ago) and read 13326 times:
Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 14): However, at the risk of getting in a semantics debate, there's a big difference between a Dash 8 to YVR and a flight to FRA.
I agree with that. I was only saying in general, however.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 16075 posts, RR: 64 Reply 20, posted (5 months 6 days ago) and read 13210 times:
Quoting Cschleic (Reply 8): I've flown it four times and was very convenient, plus planes always full.
Yes before LH launched SEA-FRA I used to shuttle down on a UAX EMB-120 and catch the PDX-FRA flight. Was more convenient then heading to SFO or LAX (plus PDX is a nicer airport then LAX).
Indeed, if they planned to I would assume that they would have made it a seasonal cut (and then make the change permanent if the economy didn't improve).
I kind of assumed NW/DL would blink first with the AMS service, hopefully with the smaller a/c (A330 to 767) and the lack of European competition they will be able to keep that flight going.
On the subject of feed- United actually serves many more non-hub cities from PDX than SEA.
Kwbl From United States, joined Jun 2001, 409 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12910 times:
This is terrible news for PDX. The route had been quite successful since starting in 2003. Even after the incentives dried up. The combination of a bad Oregon economy, the DL/NW flight to AMS, and the increase in int'l service at SEA appears to be too much. PDX has demonstrated it can support flights to Europe during a normal economic cycle. Maybe the port should put anohter incentive package together to get them through this down time.
HAL From United States, joined Jan 2002, 1786 posts, RR: 50 Reply 27, posted (5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13908 times:
Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 1): Kinda saw that one coming... too bad, though. It provided some of the more interesting spotting here. Guess we should get used to Q400 ... CRJ ... 737 ... Q400 ... CRJ ... 737 ...
Each morning there's two HA 763's going to Hawaii! But yes, it's sad. I flew a UA 747 from PDX to NRT and back in June 1983, but now that's long gone too.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
BlatantEcho From United States, joined Sep 2000, 1678 posts, RR: 2 Reply 28, posted (5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13815 times:
oh man, that's the worst aviation news out of Portland in years....
Lufti showed all the faith in the world in that route, sometimes having to upgrade it to fit pax.
I took the flight again a few weeks ago, it was just great.
Just applied for a Miles and More credit card too..... damn.
I presume it has to do with a pretty empty Biz class these days. Coach was packed as usual during the summer.
I wonder if the Port of Portland was wise to prompt NW to start AMS.
Kind of a slap in the face to the international flag carrier that started the direct route to Europe.
I can barely see myself flying PDX-AMS on a domestic carrier.... ugh.
Super super sad day, was hoping cargo would carrying it through until better economic times.
Lhpdx From United States, joined Dec 2006, 249 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13763 times:
I think the Port should have stayed with the basics..1 flight to Asia, Mexico and Europe..........Just promote and substain what we had in the beginning....Adding a new flight to AMS was a slap -in-the-face to Lufthansa who took a great risk starting service here....
Lexy From United States, joined Jun 2006, 2282 posts, RR: 7 Reply 31, posted (5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13374 times:
Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 17): I would love for this plane to be used on an FRA-YEG next year....YEG has been trying to get LH to serve the market
A market its size already has more international service than it really "should" have. The economy up there is pushing the flights but I doubt the demand is really there for LH in Edmonton. It still amazes me the fact that YEG has the service it does.
Yegbey01 From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1330 posts, RR: 3 Reply 32, posted (5 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13377 times:
Quoting Lexy (Reply 31): It still amazes me the fact that YEG has the service it does.
Wow....Canadians travel abroad WAAAAAY more than Americans do. YEG still sends a big chunk of its Europe (and beyond) bound pax to YYC where they connect through BA, LH and KL in additionlto AC's service to LHR and FRA (that and many more flights on Air Transat, Thomas Cook, Monarch, etc.....).
Quoting Lexy (Reply 31): A market its size already has more international service than it really "should" have
Oh yes....the market is so there!!!! In fact, YEG has always had service to Europe going back to ages ago with service to AMS, CPH, LHR, WAW, etc....
And not long ago, YEG had service to Berlin and FRA during the summer with Air Transat
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 25980 posts, RR: 77 Reply 33, posted (5 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13329 times:
Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 29): I think the Port should have stayed with the basics..1 flight to Asia, Mexico and Europe..........Just promote and substain what we had in the beginning....Adding a new flight to AMS was a slap -in-the-face to Lufthansa who took a great risk starting service here....
Airports can't really operate like that. They can't stop an airline from starting a service absent lack of slots/gate space, and they have to act for the public good in making a genuine attempt to attract competition.
Quoting Lexy (Reply 31): It still amazes me the fact that YEG has the service it does.
Canadians travel abroad often, much more than Americans.
Ml007 From United States, joined Oct 2006, 31 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12940 times:
Are we absolutely positive about this? I used to be an RSA for Lufty in PDX and I still have some contacts over there. I just talked to one of their main Ops guys and he said that the Sept. 14 date is because that is the day they are shifting to the winter schedule (possibly 3X, possibly 5X) and it isn't loaded in the system yet because they are still determining it. He says that the CEO is quite adamant that PDX not be cut, though there definitely has been internal conversation about it. At this point, they are unclear, but thinking it is staying. Unless someone here has the absolute definitive answer.
My friend also said that the planes have been going out very full and they have the next three weeks booked - though as many of you noted (he did as well), most of those are discounted fares.
N174UA From United States, joined Jun 2006, 944 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12892 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6): I have been always under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that PDX used incentives to lure the service from an originally planned SEA launch
No, you're right on about that. Smaller markets need to do that in order to attract the service.
Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 15): I really would like to thanks Lufthansa for putting little Portland on the international map, even if it was for a short amount of time...........I
Just over 6 years....not really short. First flight in (seems like yesterday) was March 31, 2003.
Quoting PITrules (Reply 22): Didn't PDX get upgraded to the A-346 at one point?
Probably just to meet demand on a certain day or time, whether it was freight or passengers. I don't they ever had a 744, unless it was a last-minute subsitution.
Quoting Kwbl (Reply 25): The combination of a bad Oregon economy, the DL/NW flight to AMS, and the increase in int'l service at SEA appears to be too much
Absolutely. Oregon is at 12% unemployment overall, and is far worse in certain counties. Freightliner is now gone, they closed a plant not too long ago. Same for Washington (where I live) and SEA will also see reductions as well. SAS is leaving after 40!!!! years, and it's hard to say how LH or AF are doing.
Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 29): I think the Port should have stayed with the basics..1 flight to Asia, Mexico and Europe..........Just promote and substain what we had in the beginning....Adding a new flight to AMS was a slap -in-the-face to Lufthansa who took a great risk starting service here....
Even then, the port had to offer them incentives to keep that service. That said, I think the Port was too quick in letting DL/NW move in to compete.
Sad day for Portland, but then it's not surprising. The economy in the NW in general is TOUGH, and a lot of uncertainty still persists.
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 2538 posts, RR: 3 Reply 36, posted (5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12852 times:
What a bummer for Portland! This one stings hard. The problem is, Portland just doesn't have a strong business base, and the city seems to be hit particularly hard each time there is a downturn. The current downturn is no exception, with Portland I believe having the second-highest unemployment in the country. The city desperately needs to work to draw in some additional business. It's a shame because it's such a great city.
On a personal note, I'll miss the flight a lot, as I'll shortly be relocating to Europe and will be coming back to the PDX area on a regular basis. I was planning to use LH because of the superior service over DL's 767, but it looks like I'll have to put up with the 767 if I want a direct. Hopefully that route sticks around!
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 37, posted (5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12833 times:
Quoting Ml007 (Reply 34): My friend also said that the planes have been going out very full and they have the next three weeks booked - though as many of you noted (he did as well), most of those are discounted fares.
They may be full for the next three weeks, but remember...fares fluctuate (sp?) daily.... If LH is making fares heavily discounted (for example), then the flights would not justify the cost of operating out of PDX and that would show that LH is losing money on the flights regardless if it is full or not.
And BTW, DEN gets the LH 346.... Just thought I would point that out to those who were wondering about the aircraft type LH uses on the PDX flights.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
LAXdude1023 From United States, joined Sep 2006, 4423 posts, RR: 22 Reply 38, posted (5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12847 times:
Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 10): At the rate PDX is losing international flights, we should be down to none by 2011....
No no. This will actually give DL quite a boost. Since DL now operates the only two transoceanic flights from PDX, I imagine that PDX will be come a DL market.
TF39 From United States, joined Jul 2006, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12519 times:
What a bummer. I love hearing the lovely sound in the late morning-early afternoon of the 340 over my house just SE shy of BTG
Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 29): I think the Port should have stayed with the basics..1 flight to Asia, Mexico and Europe..........Just promote and substain what we had in the beginning....Adding a new flight to AMS was a slap -in-the-face to Lufthansa who took a great risk starting service here....
One note here - the Port did a good job of getting LH shortly after DL stopped their PDX-NRT route with the MD-11 in 2003. At that time, we were without any Asia/Europe direct flights. But point taken and hopefully we can keep DL (err, NW ) here with the AMS route. Somewhat ironic eh
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 26): Perhaps when the economy improves we could see BA to London?
Wouldn't be out of the question given the 2012 Summer Olympics. We should be primed from the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, so why not I'd love to add BA to my list
Cschleic From United States, joined Feb 2002, 621 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10922 times:
Quoting N174UA (Reply 35): Probably just to meet demand on a certain day or time, whether it was freight or passengers. I don't they ever had a 744, unless it was a last-minute substitution.
It ran as a 340-600 for a few days in 2007 but that was just a substitution. There aren't any photos in the database. There's a thread that had photos of it inserted (it's listed in the Similar Topics below) but they have been deleted from the thread entries.
The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion.
Usdcaguy From United States, joined Jan 2004, 204 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10670 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 38): This will actually give DL quite a boost. Since DL now operates the only two transoceanic flights from PDX, I imagine that PDX will be come a DL market.
This is quite possible; we shouldn't forget that AMS provides almost as many connections as FRA on any given day and that Schiphol is one of the world's best connecting hubs.
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 36): I was planning to use LH because of the superior service over DL's 767, but it looks like I'll have to put up with the 767 if I want a direct.
This is a sad fact, but remember that you'll still get nonstop business class service to Europe instead of having to take an RJ to SEA or an old 757 to ORD before getting mired in delays. Ironically, it could be DL's ability to offer 767 service that will enable the market to keep nonstop service to Europe. DL pulled the A330 due to the economics in the PDX-AMS market, and having to carry fewer passengers on the 767 may make the flight more profitable with less demand. This all means that PDX is likely to keep the flight before it loses it.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13616 posts, RR: 14 Reply 42, posted (5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10129 times:
Quoting Doug_or (Reply 21): I kind of assumed NW/DL would blink first with the AMS service, hopefully with the smaller a/c (A330 to 767) and the lack of European competition they will be able to keep that flight going.
I do think it was a case of who was going to blink first, and the loss of LH will certainly improve the performance of the AMS flight. DL is in sort of an interesting position, though, as even if the AMS flight starts doing a lot better, they can't upgrade it without upgrading NRT too.
SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3701 posts, RR: 14 Reply 43, posted (5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8798 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33): Quoting Lexy (Reply 31):
It still amazes me the fact that YEG has the service it does.
Canadians travel abroad often, much more than Americans.
The percentage of Canadians holding passports is roughly 3 times the percentage of Americans (over 60% vs.over 20% and I doubt the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative of 2004 that just took full effect will change this fact that much). This is why you'll see markets in Canada like YEG or YYC with several flights to Europe, and a similarly sized U.S. market like SLC only have a single DL CDG flight.
As for PDX-FRA on LH, I think once LH determined SEA service was lucrative to them, the importance of PDX deteriorated rapidly.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 90 Reply 50, posted (5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8166 times:
Quoting Atlanta (Reply 48): It could be an interesting route for Condor. Is Condor still owned by LH?
Condor is not LH anymore. There are still some crews of LH, but they can come back to LH mainline if needed.
I have flown to PDX only once, but only to get to SEA, we flew with the EMB120 to SEA then. So I guess they axe the route for the benefit of SEA.
but it is a shame as this was a famous route for the crews of LH. I heard of many crews that they like PDX a lot.
Doug_or From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 4 Reply 53, posted (5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7548 times:
You know, people like to talk about how the flights available at SEA affect PDX and (vice vera), but I wonder how much it actually matters? I don't know anyone who has every driven to Seattle to catch a flight. Yes you can make an easy connection to SEA... but there are connecting flights to Europe that go through ORD, SFO, SLC, DTW, MSP, EWR, JFK, PHL, and ATL, too.
BlatantEcho From United States, joined Sep 2000, 1678 posts, RR: 2 Reply 54, posted (5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7493 times:
As doug_or said, I sure as heck won't be flying to SEA to connect to Europe now.
I guess I am resigned to take the DL flight to AMS, but if AMS is not my final destination, I might as well connect through Chicago and take an international carrier out instead of a US carrier to get better service.
BigGSFO From United States, joined Jun 2005, 2245 posts, RR: 7 Reply 55, posted (5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7409 times:
I was on Sauvie Island earlier today and saw the LH flight climb out and turn north. Of course I pointed it it out to my friends and told them that the flight will be gone soon. Nobody cared. I guess one needs to be an airline geek to appreciate it.
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5442 posts, RR: 55 Reply 56, posted (5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7391 times:
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 55): I was on Sauvie Island earlier today and saw the LH flight climb out and turn north. Of course I pointed it it out to my friends and told them that the flight will be gone soon. Nobody cared. I guess one needs to be an airline geek to appreciate it.
Ha, funny, I saw the inbound 343 from FRA yesterday while hiking up Stone Mountain near Atlanta and pointed it out to my brother. Do you think he cared even remotely? Not a chance! lol
To all the PDX folks out there I say keep your head up and keep on supporting the transoceanic nonstops that remain. Domestic carrier or not, a nonstop is a nonstop.
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2479 posts, RR: 11 Reply 58, posted (5 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7211 times:
What I'm wondering is, when LH started the SEA-FRA service at the end of March, 2008, was that the first official "notice" to PDX? There were those here on A.net in early 2008, when the SEA service was first announced, who said it probably meant doom for the PDX service. So now, with 20/20 hindsight, was that really the case? Did LH figure that SEA would simply replace PDX in a year or so?
Does anyone know how long the PDX incentive program lasted for LH? Was it a year of 0 landing fees and probably lease/rent concessions for the new carrier? Were there also any additional subsidies by some of the large corporate folks in Portland? As the route lasted about 6 years, I would guess the last several years -- up until SEA started anyway? -- were flown without benefit of any "help" and the route did well.
Sad news for PDX. I am truly sorry to see this happen.
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
Pictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7098 times:
Quoting Ml007 (Reply 34): Are we absolutely positive about this? I used to be an RSA for Lufty in PDX and I still have some contacts over there. I just talked to one of their main Ops guys and he said that the Sept. 14 date is because that is the day they are shifting to the winter schedule (possibly 3X, possibly 5X) and it isn't loaded in the system yet because they are still determining it. He says that the CEO is quite adamant that PDX not be cut, though there definitely has been internal conversation about it. At this point, they are unclear, but thinking it is staying. Unless someone here has the absolute definitive answer.
My friend also said that the planes have been going out very full and they have the next three weeks booked - though as many of you noted (he did as well), most of those are discounted fares.
Does no one read the news that states different from the opening message?????? this may not happen but any route is liable to be chopped of course but apparently LH may NOT be stopping PDX service.
BlatantEcho From United States, joined Sep 2000, 1678 posts, RR: 2 Reply 60, posted (5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6843 times:
still fully bookable for november on lufthansa.com
I have no sources other than a.net, can we get confirmation either way?
if it was cut, I guess they would update the site monday morning?
I'd expect it to be big local news here in PDX, and posted on lufti website.
Would be wonderful if this was not true (although I'm not getting my hopes up again after digesting such bad news).
I've got that darn miles and more card on the way to me and I was looking forward to earning miles on it and making LH some money so they continue to fly this awesome route.
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 90 Reply 61, posted (5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6856 times:
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 60): still fully bookable for november on lufthansa.com
I just tried mid November to mid December and it works fine:
Fluginformation
Flug LH468
Abflug 10:05 am Mo 16 Nov
Frankfurt, Frankfurt International, Terminal1
Ankunft 11:55 am Mo 16 Nov
Portland, Portland International, Terminal
Dauer 10h50
Fluggesellschaft Lufthansa
Flugzeugtyp Airbus Industrie A330-300
Fluginformation
Flug LH469
Abflug 13:40 am Mi 16 Dez
Portland, Portland International, Terminal
Ankunft 09:00 am Do 17 Dez
Frankfurt, Frankfurt International, Terminal1
Dauer 10h20
Fluggesellschaft Lufthansa
Flugzeugtyp Airbus Industrie A330-300
I know in German, but I guess you get the point
This is strange. Anybody can confirm this now? Anything?
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2479 posts, RR: 11 Reply 62, posted (5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6719 times:
Quoting Pictues (Reply 59): Does no one read the news that states different from the opening message?????? this may not happen but any route is liable to be chopped of course but apparently LH may NOT be stopping PDX service
Huh? What do you mean? What "news that states different..."? There are a few things mentioned by others in this thread (see below) that support the statement in the OP. But it is certainly your right to not believe the OP...
Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 61): I just tried mid November to mid December and it works fine:
What class of service is bookable in December? Did you read reply #47 (below) with availability probably quoted from a CRS showing information not found on the LH website):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 47): Only Y and B fares are bookable. The rest has been zero'd out after September 13th.
Quoting Airevents (Thread starter): Announced today in a memo to the employees, LH will stop serving Portland, OR (PDX) effective 14 September 2009
Unless someone is completely making this up, (why?), this sounds perfectly believeable to me. Perhaps Airevents could reproduce the memo (yeah, right!) or else we just wait 'til next week and expect to hear something official... Maybe there will be something in Sunday's (today's) Oregonian.
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
HT From Germany, joined May 2005, 5102 posts, RR: 36 Reply 63, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6584 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 62): What class of service is bookable in December?
If I combine the FRA-PDX nonstop with a return flight via SEA/ORD/DEN (or vice versa); I get (discounted) fare class "M" displayed for flight LH 468 (or 469).
Trying to book LH 468 and return on 469, however, only gives (full-) fare class "B" as return.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 90 Reply 64, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6549 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 62): What class of service is bookable in December? Did you read reply #47 (below) with availability probably quoted from a CRS showing information not found on the LH website):
Does it make any difference? I must say, I am not familiar with booking classes, as I mostly travel standby. But the flight shows up as LH468/469. Does this mean, when they really do ax it, that I could be rebooked as the flight does not exist anymore?
I get Business Basic Plus, Business Flex, Economy Saver, Economy basic Plus, Economy Flex and First Flex. All bookable on LH468/469 on November 16th and return on December 14th.
Cheapest for only €601
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2479 posts, RR: 11 Reply 65, posted (5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6460 times:
Quoting HT (Reply 63): If I combine the FRA-PDX nonstop with a return flight via SEA/ORD/DEN (or vice versa); I get (discounted) fare class "M" displayed for flight LH 468 (or 469).
Trying to book LH 468 and return on 469, however, only gives (full-) fare class "B" as return
Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 64): Does it make any difference? I must say, I am not familiar with booking classes, as I mostly travel standby. But the flight shows up as LH468/469. Does this mean, when they really do ax it, that I could be rebooked as the flight does not exist anymore?
I get Business Basic Plus, Business Flex, Economy Saver, Economy basic Plus, Economy Flex and First Flex. All bookable on LH468/469 on November 16th and return on December 14th.
I was just asking in light of Mark's post:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 52): Flight is zero'd out in all but Y and B fares after September 13th. That pretty much confirms it. The Y and B fares will be zero'd out shortly
Since I still don't know the sources of any of these availability searches -- a reservation system such as SABRE, or the LH website booking engine, or ??? -- I don't know which information is the latest or the most correct. Mark stated that everything except "Y" & "B" is blocked from sale beyond 9/13/09; that would often precede a flight about to disappear from the schedule (when the next update is loaded.) Finally, I have no idea how LH handles schedule changes and pending flight cancellations nor how current their website booking engine really is...
For those doubting (or at least questioning) the truth of the OP statement, all you can really do at this point in time is wait and see.
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
HT From Germany, joined May 2005, 5102 posts, RR: 36 Reply 66, posted (5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6474 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 65): Since I still don't know the sources of any of these availability searches -- a reservation system such as SABRE, or the LH website booking engine, or ???
--->
Quoting HT (Reply 63): If I combine the FRA-PDX nonstop with a return flight via SEA/ORD/DEN (or vice versa); I get (discounted) fare class "M" displayed for flight LH 468 (or 469).
Trying to book LH 468 and return on 469, however, only gives (full-) fare class "B" as return.
Source: LH's website for Germany.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
Dreamflight767 From United States, joined Dec 2008, 18 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6110 times:
One of my colleagues was scheduled on this flight for a trip in October. Last week LH contacted him to provide his new travel itinerary (which takes him via ORD if I recall).
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 2538 posts, RR: 3 Reply 70, posted (5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5280 times:
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 69): Yeah, the real questions will be do PDX-AMS and connect onward, or do PDX-ORD and connect from there.
I think it will be worth it to fly to ORD or similar to avoid DL and get on an international carrier.
DL's 767 service is quite poor, but I still think it's preferrable to connecting at ORD/IAD/JFK/ATL/EWR, etc. Not only is the flying time much shorter, but you avoid all the congestion and weather delays. I'm thinking I'll either connect in SEA or just deal with DL's service.
LambertMan From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1758 posts, RR: 47 Reply 71, posted (5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5307 times:
Lets go over the chain of events here:
October 15, 2007:
NW announces Portland-Amstedam
November 5, 2007:
LH announces Seattle-Frankfurt
Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 29): I think the Port should have stayed with the basics..1 flight to Asia, Mexico and Europe..........Just promote and substain what we had in the beginning....Adding a new flight to AMS was a slap -in-the-face to Lufthansa who took a great risk starting service here....
I would venture to say that they did treat that as a slap in the face and that the writing was almost immediately on the wall.....and in permanent marker.
Let's be honest. Even Portland residents, no matter what kind of rose-colored glasses they are wearing, knew that one of these flights was going to end up getting axed.
The economy will be a convenient excuse as will the incentives running out, but Portland simply hamstrung itself by swinging the same sweet deal for NW as it did for LH. I am unconvinced that NW looked at AMS-PDX and saw a market that was ripe and needed no help to enter....
As Mark said its the Airport Administration's duty to promote competition, but at the same time, any realist and a good airport man would know he's overstepping Portland's bounds by inviting competition for LH.
In the end though, if the market can support a daily to Europe it can and the DL flight will serve as a slightly less prestigious operator. I
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2479 posts, RR: 11 Reply 74, posted (5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4287 times:
How about that, A.netters. We've had a several-day discussion on the topic BEFORE the announcement, thanks to Airevents. That's what this board is all about!
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
Alexinwa From United States, joined Sep 2000, 910 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3812 times:
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 57): A high speed rail link between the Seattle metro and Portland would sure be nice.
Washington State is in the running for a big sum of money that will do just that. High-speed rail between Vancouver, BC and Eugene. It would replace Amtrak cascades.
I hate to see LH pull out of PDX, just as it will be a sad day in SEA when the last SK flight leaves. I guess the only plus of this has already been mentioned:
DL will keep AMS
SEA may gain a little from this
I'm personally waiting for UA to drop SEA-NRT, I feel it coming. UA is nothing in SEA compared to 15 years ago. How the mighty have fallen.
EVA777SEA From United States, joined Aug 2006, 454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3681 times:
Quoting Alexinwa (Reply 75): I'm personally waiting for UA to drop SEA-NRT, I feel it coming. UA is nothing in SEA compared to 15 years ago. How the mighty have fallen.
Seeing how this has yet to happen despite it being rumored here for years, and the fact that it is still around in these tough economic times, tell me that this flight is not going anywhere. It was also rumored that the flight would be downgraded to a 763, which also didn't happen.
Quoting LambertMan (Reply 71): October 15, 2007:
NW announces Portland-Amstedam
November 5, 2007:
LH announces Seattle-Frankfurt
I'd say that is more of a coincidence than anything else. Lufthansa was not the only carrier to offer service to SEA from Europe beginning around that time.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10893 posts, RR: 9 Reply 79, posted (5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3653 times:
Quoting Doug_or (Reply 53): Yes you can make an easy connection to SEA... but there are connecting flights to Europe that go through ORD, SFO, SLC, DTW, MSP, EWR, JFK, PHL, and ATL, too.
To most points in Europe, a connection via SEA is at least 1,000 miles shorter and a few hours faster than a connection via the other hubs you mention. SLC is a little shorter than the others but it doesn't have much Europe service.
CGKings317 From United States, joined Nov 2005, 87 posts, RR: 0 Reply 80, posted (5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3338 times:
While I am personally sad to see this go as a PDXer, I am not surprised since the economic and business situation both locally and globally is in the tank. A sizable majority of airlines in the world are in slicing-and-dicing mode with respect to routes and frequencies.
My hope is that once the economy improves and the airlines' bottom line improves that healthful and sustained intercontinental service can be sucessful again from PDX on economic merits.
Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 77): I'd say that is more of a coincidence than anything else. Lufthansa was not the only carrier to offer service to SEA from Europe beginning around that time.
Like I was taught in stats class: correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
Attempt to prosper everyone
~CGKings317
I love planes & volcanoes but the 2 of them dont get along, just ask KLM867 & PH-BFC
Doug_or From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 4 Reply 81, posted (5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2970 times:
Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 77):
Seeing how this has yet to happen despite it being rumored here for years, and the fact that it is still around in these tough economic times, tell me that this flight is not going anywhere. It was also rumored that the flight would be downgraded to a 763, which also didn't happen.
The times I've checked on this flight economy seemed alright, but front cabin bookings seemed consistently light. I have no idea how overall yields are, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this flight go.
ZKNBS From United States, joined Jun 2009, 8 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (5 months 7 hours ago) and read 2594 times:
Quoting LambertMan (Reply 71): would venture to say that they did treat that as a slap in the face and that the writing was almost immediately on the wall.....and in permanent marker.
Let's be honest. Even Portland residents, no matter what kind of rose-colored glasses they are wearing, knew that one of these flights was going to end up getting axed.
The economy will be a convenient excuse as will the incentives running out, but Portland simply hamstrung itself by swinging the same sweet deal for NW as it did for LH. I am unconvinced that NW looked at AMS-PDX and saw a market that was ripe and needed no help to enter....
As Mark said its the Airport Administration's duty to promote competition, but at the same time, any realist and a good airport man would know he's overstepping Portland's bounds by inviting competition for LH.
In the end though, if the market can support a daily to Europe it can and the DL flight will serve as a slightly less prestigious operator. I
Bingo! My thoughts exactly. The PDX market is too small to support two European nonstop flights. The Port effectively killed this flight by that single action. The first month after the Northwest flight came online DLH's load factor dropped by 20%. Worse than that is the fact that now the small pool of premium business traffic was spilt between both carriers and Northwest flooded the market with cheap fares to gain market share, result was that yields for both carriers got trashed. Even without the economic collapse I believe this route would have failed it would have just taken longer. This is a lesson in basic airline economics that the Port should have understood, very dissappointing they did not. Perhaps they should hire someone who does understand this.
Aaway From United States, joined Oct 2003, 1182 posts, RR: 15 Reply 83, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1924 times:
These stats were published in two recent issues of the Portland Business Journal:
From July 6th, 2009:
International passenger traffic at Portland International Airport has fallen nearly 30 percent this year following a 2008 in which international traffic decreased 24 percent.
Lufthansa in particular has struggled. Through May, the German carrier had 42 percent fewer passengers this year compared to 2008. In 2008, its passenger totals sank 12 percent.
From July 17th, 2009:
...Even commercial passenger carriers, which carry far less cargo, have seen declines in cargo tons.
Freight volumes for Lufthansa German Airlines, one of the larger cargo carriers of the passenger airlines serving PDX,is down a whopping 58.6 percent to 1,088 tons this year. Lufthansa plans to halt its nonstop passenger service from PDX to Frankfurt effective Sept. 13.
"The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping the old ones, which ramify...into every corner of our minds"
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10893 posts, RR: 9 Reply 84, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1849 times:
Quoting ZKNBS (Reply 82): The PDX market is too small to support two European nonstop flights.
It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe -- AC/BA/LH/KL and leisure carrier AirTransat (TS). Current peak summer schedules:
LHR - AC 12 per week (7 333 and 5 763), BA 7 per week (763)
LGW - TS 3 per week (332)
GLA - TS 1 per week (332, continues to LGW)
MAN - TS 2 per week (332)
FRA - AC 7 per week (333), LH 7 per week (343), TS 1 per week (332)
AMS - KL 5 per week (332), TS 1 per week
CDG - TS 1 per week (332)
MUC - TS 1 per week (332)
Total 48 nonstops a week, equivalent of almost 7 daily, to 8 destinations. There may also be a British leisure carrier serving YYC during the summer, not certain.
Aaway From United States, joined Oct 2003, 1182 posts, RR: 15 Reply 85, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1795 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe
Not really that strange at all - geographic isolation from other large metro areas and oil industry income.
"The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping the old ones, which ramify...into every corner of our minds"
Yegbey01 From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1330 posts, RR: 3 Reply 86, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1734 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): otal 48 nonstops a week, equivalent of almost 7 daily, to 8 destinations. There may also be a British leisure carrier serving YYC during the summer, not certain.
Well...
1) Canadians travel abroad way more often than Americans
2) YYC is the gateway to the rockies - ski and summer mountain destination
3) many of the TS, MOnarch, MyAirways, etc... flights originate in YVR
4) YYC gets a significant number of pax from other cities in Western Canada
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4403 posts, RR: 7 Reply 87, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1435 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe -- AC/BA/LH/KL and leisure carrier AirTransat (TS). Current peak summer schedules:
LGW - TS 3 per week (332)
GLA - TS 1 per week (332, continues to LGW)
MAN - TS 2 per week (332)
6 carriers, there is GSM as well weekly to LGW/MAN/GLA/DUB, all shared with YVR
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 1640 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1383 times:
What I don't get is why airlines don't like ( or it is not economical ) to fly 2 or three times a week if demand isn't there to fill more planes. 3 times a week Portland, 4 times Seattle must work out, and give more full paying passengers than 7 times Seattle only.
Hywel From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1299 times:
When the route first got launched, I seem to remember reading that a main factor was the cargo, and LH were making most of their profit off cargo on this route. So maybe the demand for cargo is to blame for the service being cancelled?
SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3701 posts, RR: 14 Reply 90, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1291 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 84): It's strange that a Canadian city like YYC with a metro population of 1.2 million, about half the PDX metro population of 2.2 million, can support 5 nonstop scheduled carriers to Europe -- AC/BA/LH/KL and leisure carrier AirTransat (TS). Current peak summer schedules:
LHR - AC 12 per week (7 333 and 5 763), BA 7 per week (763)
LGW - TS 3 per week (332)
GLA - TS 1 per week (332, continues to LGW)
MAN - TS 2 per week (332)
FRA - AC 7 per week (333), LH 7 per week (343), TS 1 per week (332)
AMS - KL 5 per week (332), TS 1 per week
CDG - TS 1 per week (332)
MUC - TS 1 per week (332)
Total 48 nonstops a week, equivalent of almost 7 daily, to 8 destinations. There may also be a British leisure carrier serving YYC during the summer, not certain.
Keep in mind the percentage of Canadians holding passports is perhaps 3 times or greater what the percentage of Americans, and Canadians are much more likely to travel abroad. The Wasatch Front (metro-SLC) is about 2.2+ million and it only has CDG service to Europe, and by the stroke of political luck an NRT flight. But prior to 2008 it had NOTHING outside North America (Canada/Mexico only).
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Doug_or From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 4 Reply 91, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1188 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 88): What I don't get is why airlines don't like ( or it is not economical ) to fly 2 or three times a week if demand isn't there to fill more planes. 3 times a week Portland, 4 times Seattle must work out, and give more full paying passengers than 7 times Seattle only.
There's no convenience to that. A non stop is more convenient than a connection, but [almost] no one is going to change the date of travel just to get a non-stop. The chance of a daily working for someone is 100%, the chance of a 5x weekly is pretty good (as long as the days with non flights are chosen carefully), but at 3x or 4x times a week, the chance that there will be a flight that works for the customers outbound AND return journey becomes very small, and the competitive advantage of the non-stop shrinks away.
In markets where there are no or few options (remote Pacific islands, some African destinations), this can work, but customers in SEA and PDX have plenty of other ways to get to Europe.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13616 posts, RR: 14 Reply 92, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 917 times:
Quoting Doug_or (Reply 91): but at 3x or 4x times a week, the chance that there will be a flight that works for the customers outbound AND return journey becomes very small, and the competitive advantage of the non-stop shrinks away.
As someone who lives in a city with relatively infrequent nonstops in a variety of markets, I disagree completely. Getting a nonstop both ways is the clear first choice, but getting a nonstop one way is equally clearly superior to connecting both ways.
BigGSFO From United States, joined Jun 2005, 2245 posts, RR: 7 Reply 93, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 881 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 92): As someone who lives in a city with relatively infrequent nonstops in a variety of markets, I disagree completely. Getting a nonstop both ways is the clear first choice, but getting a nonstop one way is equally clearly superior to connecting both ways.
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I just flew into PDX on Wednesday and saw LH's A343 sitting there, shiny as ever...
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) here with the AMS route. Somewhat ironic eh 
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