Quote: In the middle of the holiday season, a war of words have been declared between the national carrier of Scandinavia SAS, and the Irish low cost carrier Ryanair.
-"Ryanair are the clowns of the airline industry", says SAS's PR manager Nicklas Härenstam.
-"Mind your own business!", says Erik Elmsäter, manager of Ryanair in Sweden.
The main reason of this conflict is a confusion over the statistics of the two airlines punctuality. The airlines are having an argument over who is the most punctual.
-"SAS's flights are more often delayed, than ours", says Ryanair.
-"Ryanair talking through their hat! They're presenting old statistics", says SAS.
Which airline who is the most punctuate, depends on which statistics you are looking at. Ryanair are more punctuate than SAS according to the statistics posted by AEA (Association of European Airlines) between November and Mars 08-09. SAS are more punctuate than Ryanair according to Flightstats another measuring device, with figures slightly more recent, than AEA.
-"SAS should might consider dealing with their tough financial situation instead of criticizing our figures", says Erik Elmsäter at Ryanair. He also adds "SAS will in a year or two either go crashing and burning, or being bought up by Lufthansa".
-"If there's anything that will go crashing and burning, then that would be Ryanair's customer service. People have gotten rather pissed by all their extra charges", says SAS.
The arguments have now developed into an "airwar", and after stating that they're comparing apples with pears, different statistics, that is. The argument is now about the reliability of the figures.
-"Flightstats figures aren't official, however AEA are official, so confess your mistake", says Steven McNamara, communications manager at Ryanair.
-"Flightstats and AEA are just as relieable, and the only differences are that Flightstats are quicker and they cover all airlines.
So my question now is. Are Ryanair really as punctuate as they claim to be? I mean, almost every FR flight I have been on, has been delayed.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16741 posts, RR: 59 Reply 1, posted (5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5649 times:
Had me all excited then! But, it's a little boring for a fight!
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): I mean, almost every FR flight I have been on, has been delayed.
I've flown 100+. Probably 90-95% on time or early, a few <30m delayed, and 2 cancelled due to external factors (very heavy snow and French ATC strike).
This thread will be a little pointless: everyone will say 'well, it was on time/delayed for me...' It is all meaningless when it carries 60 million people per year. Hard, fast, impartial statistics is what is necessary. And this thread will degenerate into the usual moaning.
LH4116 From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 951 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5092 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 1): Had me all excited then! But, it's a little boring for a fight!
Yeah, to be honest, it's a bit lame to be called a "war", or fight.
But still, I would still say that "Ryanair, the on time airline", will have to be taken with a pinch of salt...
And besides, SAS are after all the most punctuate airline in Europe.
Nothing like unfounded propaganda! I will have to take that with a lorry-load of salt and more besides.
It's all a bit of fun.
On a more serious note, have a look at http://www.flightontime.info/londonstockholm/index.html You will see that FR has been the most punctual on LON-STO (remember FR serves NYO and VST for STO not ARN) for 5 years in a row, although for Jan-Mar this year it was in last position.
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4907 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): Are Ryanair really as punctuate as they claim to be? I mean, almost every FR flight I have been on, has been delayed.
Yes, to be honest, they generally are significantly so and with only a very few exceptions indeed. How many have you been on though as percentages are relative quantities?
Quoting LH4116 (Reply 2): But still, I would still say that "Ryanair, the on time airline", will have to be taken with a pinch of salt...
Why would that be?
[quote=LH4116,reply=2]And besides, SAS are after all the most punctuate airline in Europe.
I notice that it was by AEA, which doesn't include LCCs. In fact, it only has "33 major airlines," namely: http://www.aea.be/about/memberairlines/index.html (You could argue EI is, but I'll call it a hybrid.) So, while SK might well be the most punctual of those, it might not be when LCCs are added = it's insufficient.
Babybus From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2257 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4628 times:
SAS would have no place slagging off FR. SAS fares for as long as I have known them, have been completely outragious. Not only that but you get high fares and no service.
I only got to fly them using ID 75s and even then they were still expensive.
When SAS know how to run an airline come back then and have a stab at FR.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
LH4116 From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 951 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4495 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4): You will see that FR has been the most punctual on LON-STO (remember FR serves NYO and VST for STO not ARN) for 5 years in a row, although for Jan-Mar this year it was in last position.
Well yeah, the thing is that my school is located at VST (Västerås Airport), and every single day, the 1x daily flight to STN is delayed, and it's usually around 15 to 60 minutes!
My, good! I remember last month, when we had our annual "runway race" (it's a foot race where the entire school gathers up at the VST runway, to race down the 2,5 km length of it. It's quite fun actually). The time they had picked wasn't the best, since the FR flight was about to land at the same time, but anyway, the flight was delayed with 2 hours as usual. So we had to wait in the hangar for more than two hours, and by the time the flight finally departed, it started raining... (this has nothing to do with the thread, but still )
TravelExec From Spain, joined Dec 2007, 355 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4280 times:
If SAS wants to take on Ryanair in a "war"... good luck to them with that!
My suggestion is that SAS avoid tactics that Ryanair will always win at - you can win a moral victory against Ryanair in the press, but in the end, Ryanair is delighted at any press because it shows up the price difference and keeps their name in people's minds...
Perhaps SAS should be spending more time looking at their cost base and worrying at how Norwegian, Cimber, Ryanair & Transavia steal their lunch.
Chootie From Germany, joined May 2007, 56 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3613 times:
At the end of the day, If you decide to fly FR, so be it. But if ANYTHING out of the ordinary happens, you are outta luck.
Those who SK in the same situation, will be looked after.
BTW depending on how flexible in travel dates you are, A full service airline will be just about as well priced as a LCC(after adding ALL the extras.....)
And is it not really easier to be on time, when the airports served, have sooooooo little traffic? Should not make a big difference, since you will probably use ground transport 1-2 hours to get where you want. Therefore a delay from a major airport, less the extra travel time,(cause you landed centrally) will more than likely get you to where you want faster.
I can't be bothered to waste my time to search for a better source. Bottom line, your "propaganda" comment was inappropriate and you were proven wrong, thank you.
The fact remains that SK might well be the most punctual airline of the 33 legacy airlines that comprise the AEA (Association of European Airlines), as per your first-stated source and including three cargo carriers, but that gentleman’s club does not include most European airlines, including all LCCs. Consequently, SK can neither fairly nor accurately claim it is Europe's most punctual airline - only of 33 airlines in Europe, or, more accurate still, of 30 passenger carriers. Clearly, I was not proven wrong.
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 544 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2593 times:
Well if I might add something.
There are two points giving FR an obvious competitive advantage in terms of punctuality.
1.FR uses 98% of the time rather secondary airports. Try having a similar punctuality rate on flights to FRA compared to HHN.
2.FR's flight schedules their flights differently. Meaning that on their timetable their flights are slightly longer than they actually are. However, as long as their are on time, they give you a reliable measurement, to determine when you arrive, and when somebody can pick you up.
However, these to points apart. If they really are more punctual, they are. Doesn't matter, if they profit of No.1 and No.2.. I'm by no means a fan of FR, rather the opposite, but if you are talking about punctuality FR is on top of the list (for obvious reasons).
In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces.
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 13 Reply 18, posted (5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2510 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Reply 11): Well yeah, the thing is that my school is located at VST (Västerås Airport), and every single day, the 1x daily flight to STN is delayed, and it's usually around 15 to 60 minutes!
Let me get this right. We have someone still at school making definitive statements about the punctuality of airlines based on a flight at an airport beside his school?
Quoting Chootie (Reply 13): Those who SK in the same situation, will be looked after.
BTW depending on how flexible in travel dates you are, A full service airline will be just about as well priced as a LCC(after adding ALL the extras.....)
So now we're into the usual propaganda? What has either comment got to do with punctuality and which is being discussed in the thread?
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 544 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2386 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 18): Let me get this right. We have someone still at school making definitive statements about the punctuality of airlines based on a flight at an airport beside his school?
Well and you claim to know more about the punctuality of FR's flights to VST just because you are a "Travel Director (Flight Ops) and ex-combat Harrier and Tornado pilot"? At least he doesn't pretend to have been in business for 15 years, while he hasn't, as many others do.
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 16): Clearly, I was not proven wrong.
No you weren't. However neither were you proven right (however, it's likely that you are)
Quoting Kl911 (Reply 15):
Lol.... Don't think soo, besides, most of my Ryanair flights have been early, not ontime.
Note my post above.
[Edited 2009-07-04 12:26:40]
In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces.
LH4116 From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 951 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2368 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 18): Let me get this right. We have someone still at school making definitive statements about the punctuality of airlines based on a flight at an airport beside his school?
Yes, I usually drop by the terminal on my way home from school, to have a cup of tea, and do some studying (It may seem strange, but it's one of very few places where can get some work done properly ). From time to time, I turn my head up from the books, to look at the departure boards, and the funny thing is that despite VST being such a small airport with only 2-3 flights/day, the London flight almost every single day departs late, even though it arrived on time, huh...
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16741 posts, RR: 59 Reply 21, posted (5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2347 times:
Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 17): 2.FR's flight schedules their flights differently. Meaning that on their timetable their flights are slightly longer than they actually are.
Airlines have block times, which includes the actual flight time, taxi time at both airports, and time for short delays. The block time is the time in timetables/booking engines. For example, if the expected flight time is 45 minutes, the taxi time could be perhaps 7 minutes at both ends, and 10 or so minutes for short delays, you might have a block time of 1h 10m. What you have will also be determined to a degree by slot restrictions. Clearly, if you're operating from a busy, large airport you would need to add more time for taxis and delays than at a small, quiet airport. Of course, it would be stupid to extend your block time to a particular extent: your flight would be likely to appeal less to potential customers, for example in a GDS, and your aircraft utilisation would be lower. FR has block times and is no in respect of having them to other airlines; see the following comparison between BA, EZY, and FR, on three routes on which they each directly compete, namely LGW-ALC, MAD, and MRS, and between EI and FR on LGW-DUB. Moreover, if an airline didn't have a block time they would always be late! Hence, a block time is essential.
Pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2451 posts, RR: 9 Reply 22, posted (5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2295 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 16):
The fact remains that SK might well be the most punctual airline of the 33 legacy airlines that comprise the AEA (Association of European Airlines), as per your first-stated source and including three cargo carriers, but that gentleman’s club does not include most European airlines, including all LCCs. Consequently, SK can neither fairly nor accurately claim it is Europe's most punctual airline - only of 33 airlines in Europe, or, more accurate still, of 30 passenger carriers. Clearly, I was not proven wrong.
So why uses FR AEA punctually statistics themself?
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): Which airline who is the most punctuate, depends on which statistics you are looking at. Ryanair are more punctuate than SAS according to the statistics posted by AEA (Association of European Airlines) between November and Mars 08-09. SAS are more punctuate than Ryanair according to Flightstats another measuring device, with figures slightly more recent, than AEA.
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): Flightstats figures aren't official, however AEA are official, so confess your mistake", says Steven McNamara, communications manager at Ryanair.
Well I wouldn't call this a war, I hope at least one airline will fight Ryanair, however I don't think SAS is the best off to fight FR due to its financial situation.
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 7): I have thick skin and couldn't careless what people think - particularly on a website.
Atlanta
Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
Sorry, if I didn't express myself properly. I should have said "often". And when I said slightly longer I meant "slightly". (around 5min, which can make quite a difference).
On two of the three examples out of LGW is indeed "longer" than BA, and the shortes flight out of DUB is also 5min longer than EI.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a negative thing. I don't care if the flight is 5 minutes "longer", as long as it is "punctual".
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 21): Of course, it would be stupid to extend your block time to a particular extent
Of course, but I hope you "know" that I didn't mean that FR extends their blocktimes by 15-20 min.
In general FR simply likes to add 5min. Was even mentioned by MOL a couple of years ago.
GlobeEx
In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16741 posts, RR: 59 Reply 25, posted (5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2275 times:
GlobeEx: I don't doubt it, and five or ten minutes where feasible is surely desirable, particularly at busier, larger, and more delayed airports, such as LGW. To illustrate: I would venture to guess that EI's 1h 5m block on one of its LGW-DUB sectors results in that flight often being late, as the actual flight time, from experience, is normally 50-55m. Add taxi and delays...
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 544 posts, RR: 7 Reply 26, posted (5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2111 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 25): I would venture to guess that EI's 1h 5m block on one of its LGW-DUB sectors results in that flight often being late
This might very well be the case (don't know)
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 25): I don't doubt it, and five or ten minutes where feasible is surely desirable, particularly at busier, larger, and more delayed airports, such as LGW
I totaly agree. Just a wild guess on my site: On the other hand, on routes where there is no competition they might not have as much concerns to simply add 5min. Maybe!!!
There is also an additional advantage about the 5min "add-on" (next to being "more" punctual) of reducing a delay over the day.
Just for the folks out there. I have to say, that I am definately no fan of FR what-so-ever!!! I used them often enough (around 20 times). I try to avoid them whereever possible. I almost detest them. But sometimes they are simply the best choice.
However, what you have to keep in mind. When making a statement concerning FR, there are obviously a lot of things they are doing right. Otherwise they wouldn't be where they are now and if making an educated statment you should always acknowledge that, wheather you like it or not. If you agree with their practices or not, that is totaly up to you and you are absolutely entiteled to your opinion!
Regards,
GlobeEx
In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces.
Borism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 335 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2072 times:
I guess legacy carriers can't really add a lot of block time, as that might jeopardize connecting traffic.
But this whole thread and airline punctuality topic is quite ridiculous. SK and FR have totally different operations at totally different airports. How can you compare ARN to VST or LHR to STN? Whatever time you might gain by travelling FR you'll lose on the way to the airport!
Only comparing same airport pairs performance of different airlines would make sense, and then again, FR passengers couldn't care less about punctuality!
SK is totally out of their mind participating in this fight. Go FR!
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 544 posts, RR: 7 Reply 28, posted (5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1998 times:
Quoting Borism (Reply 27):
SK is totally out of their mind participating in this fight. Go FR!
Well, always keep in mind, what airlines save by "free publicity"!
That's simply what all this is about. I can promise you that FR and SK both are enjoying this media attention!
In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16741 posts, RR: 59 Reply 29, posted (5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1974 times:
Quoting Borism (Reply 27): FR passengers couldn't care less about punctuality!
Of course they would! FR promote low fares; punctuality; reliability (in terms of completed flights); and a low rate of lost baggage. They are key parts of its proposition. Of course, it doesn't get punctuality, reliability and lost bags right all the time - in terms of its scale and scope that would surely be impossible - but they certainly are key elements that by virtue of what it does, e.g. secondary airports and sheer reduction in checked baggage, help improve those things. I would say that if every fare was low - which isn't the case, of course, due to yield management, like with most airlines, although its average fare is presently only about €34 - but those other factors weren't sufficiently good, people would book at a lower rate than at present. In my mind, they're absolutely essential considerations.
Aidanoc5793 From Ireland, joined Apr 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1840 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): So my question now is. Are Ryanair really as punctuate as they claim to be? I mean, almost every FR flight I have been on, has been delayed.
FR serve mostly smaller under used airports so they do not experience as many delays like SK would at lets say LHR, OSL, so FR may be more punctual than SK but only because of the reason above. I have to say I love the way FR are so upfront " Mind your own business" now thats good no long winded answer just classic FR antics!!!!
N623JB From United States, joined Sep 2007, 321 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1706 times:
As I have read before, I saw that someone said that theyre favorite carrier is SAS..I say to that.. me too. SAS is a great airline, flew them 1-2x from EWR-OSL,CPH-EWR. I would love to fly on one of their A330s/A340s.
JETBLUE LOVES LAX!(Los Angeles International Airport,Ca)
LH4116 From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 951 posts, RR: 4 Reply 32, posted (5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1621 times:
Quoting N623JB (Reply 31): As I have read before, I saw that someone said that they're favorite carrier is SAS..I say to that.. me too. SAS is a great airline, flew them 1-2x from EWR-OSL,CPH-EWR. I would love to fly on one of their A330s/A340s.
Well they used to be my favorite too... Until they went no frills. However they do offer free service at certain morning flights, and it's great!
Quoting Borism (Reply 27): Only comparing same airport pairs performance of different airlines would make sense, and then again, FR passengers couldn't care less about punctuality!
From what I've seen (when doing my homework at VST, hehe) There are many business travelers using FR, now days. I'm sure they care much about the punctuality, right?
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 3845 posts, RR: 20 Reply 33, posted (5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1082 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 16): The fact remains that SK might well be the most punctual airline of the 33 legacy airlines that comprise the AEA (Association of European Airlines), as per your first-stated source and including three cargo carriers, but that gentleman’s club does not include most European airlines, including all LCCs. Consequently, SK can neither fairly nor accurately claim it is Europe's most punctual airline - only of 33 airlines in Europe, or, more accurate still, of 30 passenger carriers. Clearly, I was not proven wrong.
Seems fair to me. But what is the basis for FR fairly or accurately claiming:
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): -"SAS's flights are more often delayed, than ours", says Ryanair.
Is there data available to support FR's contention that a greater proportion of SK than FR flights are delayed? Or is that equally just unsubstantiatable hot air?
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Nothing like unfounded propaganda! I will have to take that with a lorry-load of salt and more besides. 
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