BP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 576 posts, RR: 1 Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8240 times:
We continue to hear of Trans-Atlantic cuts from Delta, Virgin and Lufthansa - but what other Europe-USA city pairs are other TATL carriers looking at cutting if the economy does not improve?
Is there too much service to/from Europe USA from any city?
Is there enough traffic to keep service to some cities or do some airlines just not want to pull out of a market because they do not want to admit the route is on life support because of pride?
Where is there too much redundancy on USA-Europe city pairs?
Thanks,
BP1
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2278 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8105 times:
Quoting BP1 (Thread starter): Is there too much service to/from Europe USA from any city?
Absolutely, over capacity due to intense/crowded sectors ruins loads, profits for the airlines especially if the market can't support it and there are other factors like not enough feed now there's a bloodbath to some destinations.....like.....somebody back me up.....for the casual passenger, however, you now have a highly reasonable fare...
Quoting BP1 (Thread starter): Where is there too much redundancy on USA-Europe city pairs?
A Northeastern USA hub to Europe, PHL, BOS, JFK, EWR where transatlantic operations are king, ATL, DTW, MSP, IAD, ORD, CLT add fuel to the fire... some of these are primarily USA airline at it's hub where there is not much O/D to European city.
You look at an airline like US who expands into Europe extremely late in the game with a subpar product (thank God the 332s are coming)....transatlantic travel is already down
And then there are the European carriers who compete also to markets like JFK, BOS, IAD...
But as the title says... USA-European flights in jeopordy...... IMO here are some off the top of my head ... (even if they haven't started)
DL RDU-CDG
DL PHL-CDG
BA LHR-BWI
CO CLE-LHR
IB MAD-BOS
But there's more I just can't think of any right now
ORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8065 times:
It doesn't matter if it is Peoria or Paris too many seats chasing too few passangers equals low yields and players having to pull out of the market.
As far as US goes if the economy stays in the toilet that PHL TATL hub is going to shrink to simply flying to other *A hubs. The a330-300 is physically a nice product but the in flight experience is really pretty nasty. It isn't just US or American carriers. There simply are too many seats over the pond.
FlyingSicilian From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 835 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8038 times:
Depending on the Energy market, IAH-AMS *could* see some capacity cuts as CO heads away from sky team; some of the connecting traffic might head to Germany and LH or *A.
AMS-IAH is a big market so it is not going away; I just think it might see a little less capacity. Maybe the PrivatAir flight for KLM depending on how the J market goes? Not sure.
IAH-London has increased capacity even though they are not partner alliance hubs so maybe AMS-IAH will stay the same, but some cuts wouldn't surprise me.
Maybe the second daily AF IAH-CDG flight due to the skyteam changes also.
Of course IAH-FRA is seeing increased capacity so it could balance out a bit.
Houston Europe is a fairly strong market so I don't see to much changing however.
Very unlikely to happen. The flights are always busy and before the downturn as with all the routes the revenue was definatly there.
The 767 actually serves BA very well on that route. I think in the next few years BA may cut the number of frequencies to a US destanation but they are unlikely to cut any North American routes entirely
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7716 posts, RR: 5 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7337 times:
I would not be surprised that within a few years long-range international flights from the USA will be limited to these gateway airports:
Boston Logan International (BOS)
New York JFK International (JFK)
Washington, DC Dulles International (IAD)
Atlanta Hartsfield International (ATL)
Orlando International (MCO)
Miami International (MIA)
Chicago O'Hare International (ORD)
Dallas-Fort Worth International (DFW)
Houston George Bush Intercontinental (IAH)
Seattle-Tacoma International (SEA)
San Francisco International (SFO)
Los Angeles International (LAX)
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3819 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7316 times:
Maybe one of the unintended consequences of this will be that little upstarts like Ryanair will think twice about entering the Transatlantic market. Full of verve & vigor (but not yet any planes), they will be attacked mercilessly by the majors when & if they decide to cross the pond. No one knows what the economic environment will be like once Ryanair finally gets its act together, but I don't know how you fashion a scenario where business is as robust as it was from the 1990s through the middle of this decade. I just don't see us ever returning to those days. As long as governments are hell-bent on confiscating money from people and businesses in the name of 'taxes', that leaves less for travel.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16317 posts, RR: 52 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6656 times:
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 3): Depending on the Energy market, IAH-AMS *could* see some capacity cuts as CO heads away from sky team;
IAH-AMS is going from 2x daily 767s to 1 daily 777-200ER.
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6): I would not be surprised that within a few years long-range international flights from the USA will be limited to these gateway airports:
Boston Logan International (BOS)
New York JFK International (JFK)
Washington, DC Dulles International (IAD)
Atlanta Hartsfield International (ATL)
Orlando International (MCO)
Miami International (MIA)
Chicago O'Hare International (ORD)
Dallas-Fort Worth International (DFW)
Houston George Bush Intercontinental (IAH)
Seattle-Tacoma International (SEA)
San Francisco International (SFO)
Los Angeles International (LAX)
Shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4041 posts, RR: 13 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6551 times:
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 7): Maybe one of the unintended consequences of this will be that little upstarts like Ryanair will think twice about entering the Transatlantic market.
I'd hadly call an airline that carries 60 million pax per year a "little upstart"....
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
DBCC From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 65 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6282 times:
When the economy goes bad....point to point is, in most cases, no longer viable unless you downgrade the aircraft size. And sometimes that is not even enough.
We will eventually go back to large aircraft hub-to-hub system, fed by spokes. Connecting all imaginable city pairs just does not make economic sense.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16317 posts, RR: 52 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5992 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11): Also PHL, I doubt if PHL would be without significant Transatlantic service.
Absolutely, there are some major corporate campuses in the suburbs surrounding the City of Philadelphia especially in Bucks and Montgomery counties.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21293 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5859 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6): I would not be surprised that within a few years long-range international flights from the USA will be limited to these gateway airports:
There's no reason CLT shouldn't be on that list. CLT is one of those markets that will never support a bunch of flights but can support, say, London and Germany.
More generally, your list seems to assume that a city needs to have many TATL flights to have TATL service at all. Why do you make that assumption? Certainly, there are cities where a single TATL flight is an appropriate level of service and will be for the foreseeable future.
Even without that caveat, DTW and PHL certainly belong on your list.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Always one everyone thinks about, and it could be. But the CLE-LHR has had a very strong summer so far, and it's already loaded in the computer for 1May in 2010. Right now, it's not on the chopping block, and I don't think it will be unless the economy gets even worse. But I think CO is happy with how it's done this year. It's doing better than CLE-LGW did last summer.
FuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2018 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks ago) and read 4613 times:
I think this market should certainly shrink. First off, everyone wants a peice of the USA-Europe trans-atlantic route. But as some people said, to much competetion with too few pax.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
LACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3752 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4329 times:
I don't think so. DL is picking this up for AF. I can see DL using a 75W for the off peak periods and during the high season, as well as the Winter Holidays (when the economy picks back up), a 767.
Myself and though I would be sad to see it, I wouldn't be surprised to see LX drop some routes, i.e., ZRH-LAX-ZRH. Does anyone know how this route is doing? Before LH took them over, I felt their days were numbered but am hopeful the LH-LX hookup has helped them.
_AA_777_MAN From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4068 times:
Starting September 12, 2009 VS is stopping the LHR-ORD route for the second time.
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3842 times:
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 7): Maybe one of the unintended consequences of this will be that little upstarts like Ryanair
Little upstarts like Ryanair......now that's certainly a good spin LOL!!!!!!!
Tell me again which US carrier is as successful and profitable as that "little upstart" with 50+ million passengers last year. I'll admit I'm falling off my chair laughing......considering the thread title, are you seriously attempting to compare an Irish LCC against the 'mighty' US legacies in a market they don't even compete in. Bejayus, things must be bad to choose such a way to distract from the performances of those 'mighty' legacies, lol!!!
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 7): Full of verve & vigor (but not yet any planes), they will be attacked mercilessly by the majors when & if they decide to cross the pond
Hmmm! have you seen the size of the Ryanair fleet, the latest aircraft and the very young age of it (oh! and they don't buy just the odd plane now and then!)......oh wait! you must be thinking of that imaginary market in your head that they don't even operate in, so what other a/c do they need? I don't think the US 'majors' are in a position to be doing much attacking of anyone; they seem to be having enough trouble sustaining their own broken businesses. On the contrary, whilst I don't see it happening for a while, I can assure you the last thing your carriers want to see TATL is Ryanair......because they'd better find routes that will sustain high business travel only!
Might I respectfully suggest you should really find out a little about FR before making such foolish statements.
Lufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3111 times:
Most of the destinations that I think we will see cut across the atlantic are from the western half of the US. The majors earn much more from a flight from JFK or BOS than from LAX. I just bought two sets of tickets to TXL, one for me and one for a friend. I am leaving from BOS and he from LAX. The price I price I paid from BOS is higher than LAX, and if I didn't worry about accruing miles, they would be about equal. Either way, I think we will see places like CLT and MCO staying, and the first destinations being dropped being like the already announced PDX by LH or Virgin's LAS service, or LX's LAX service.
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6787 posts, RR: 24 Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2749 times:
Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 19): I just bought two sets of tickets to TXL, one for me and one for a friend. I am leaving from BOS and he from LAX. The price I price I paid from BOS is higher than LAX, and if I didn't worry about accruing miles, they would be about equal.
Thats not really a good way of looking at it. The reason why the price might be different could be a number of reasons. Availability might be one reason.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21293 posts, RR: 19 Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 18): Tell me again which US carrier is as successful and profitable as that "little upstart" with 50+ million passengers last year.
It's an interesting comparison, actually. FR is quite successful, and they do zero longhaul flying. In this country, the most historically successful airline, historically anyway, is probably WN. They also do no longhaul flying. Is there a pattern there? Interesting question...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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