DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7317 posts, RR: 16 Reply 1, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4785 times:
My only guess would be that I think Delta controls all of Concourses A and B. They're not going to let Southwest come in and use those gates. Granted, DL has done a better job of utilization of their gates with C shut, but still, each cut will just add holes.
Terminal 2 is pretty full, and will be full once CO relocates over there. T1 is shut and would require a good bit of money to get it updated.
LHCVG From United States, joined May 2009, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4641 times:
The market (and airport) may "want" to see WN come to CVG, but DL could just smother any real inroads WN makes. IMHO you would just see DL ramp up mainline (or upgrade current flights, like to MCO, to bigger a/c) with tasty fares and beat WN into submission given their hegemonic hold on the CVG market.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7317 posts, RR: 16 Reply 3, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4614 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 2): DL could just smother any real inroads WN makes. IMHO you would just see DL ramp up mainline (or upgrade current flights, like to MCO, to bigger a/c) with tasty fares and beat WN into submission given their hegemonic hold on the CVG market.
That might work against some other (smaller) airlines, but I doubt it would work on Southwest. When WN commits to a new market, they're in it for the long-haul - they're not just going to cut their losses and run like B6 did in Atlanta around 7-8 years ago; they're going to stick around. And with their financial warchest, they can afford to bleed a little bit more than many other airlines.
STT757 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 12130 posts, RR: 54 Reply 4, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4543 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 2): IMHO you would just see DL ramp up mainline (or upgrade current flights, like to MCO, to bigger a/c) with tasty fares and beat WN into submission given their hegemonic hold on the CVG market.
In this economic climate and with DL's recent merger with NWA I think DL would be more than happy to turn CVG over the WN and leave town.
"'Brown Sugar' could save the world..." Eddie Vedder 10/14/97 Oakland, California
Iowaman From United States, joined May 2004, 3483 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4532 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 3): That might work against some other (smaller) airlines, but I doubt it would work on Southwest. When WN commits to a new market, they're in it for the long-haul - they're not just going to cut their losses and run like B6 did in Atlanta around 7-8 years ago; they're going to stick around. And with their financial warchest, they can afford to bleed a little bit more than many other airlines.
Plus, there are enough FF in other WN hubs such as MDW, LAS, MCO, BWI, etc that would fly WN to CVG regardless of DL had matching fares or if CVG based passengers flew them. This is what tends to keep CLE and DTW small but going.
LHCVG From United States, joined May 2009, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4481 times:
Not to just boost my own points, as the other points made are quite good (especially about WN's relative health and size), but if DL "allowed" WN to establish a beachhead at CVG, wouldn't that essentially be throwing away 2+ decades of courting FF's in the CVG market? Obviously I would never accuse an airline of being altruistic; what I am getting at is, is there not SOME benefit to DL to not just let an interloper come in to CVG and take over the place (much less even just give them some real competition there), on the grounds that doing so really would make whatever hub/focus city/connecting ops DL runs there useless?
They may, but the trouble is that SDF and CMH which they already serve are close. OTOH, if B6/VX/FL announced 10 flights a day then WN would announce it immediately.
DLHFLYER From United States, joined Apr 2009, 111 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4405 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 2): IMHO you would just see DL ramp up mainline (or upgrade current flights, like to MCO, to bigger a/c) with tasty fares and beat WN into submission given their hegemonic hold on the CVG market.
If Southwest enters a market, they will not lose. My guess is that Southwest is just waiting for the the operation to get smaller in which they can invade with easy success. It's not a matter of if, it when.
Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
Drerx7 From United States, joined Jun 2000, 3224 posts, RR: 8 Reply 9, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4356 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6): wouldn't that essentially be throwing away 2+ decades of courting FF's in the CVG market?
Delta did it to Dallas...CVG will be WN territory in due time says my crystal ball, with MEM coming down the line after that. I can't wait to see the day when WN attempts ATL.
Iflyatldl From United States, joined Nov 2003, 1936 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4336 times:
I could see it happening, more so than ATL even though city of ATL are in and out and of talks. But, SDF is just down I-71 so it could be an overlap. On the other hand, look at BOS/MHT so who knows? And don't forget FL. They could have something up their sleeve, but they have bigger fish to fry at this point. But, you never know....Nothing would shock me at this point.
Irony: ATL wants WN believe it or not.
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
BalZ18 From United States, joined Oct 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4308 times:
In my personal opinion I don't think CVG would be a safe market at this time. Not because the economy but because of its surroundings. Southwest already flies out of CMH, SDF and IND so why place another destination when there are others so close to it? Just my two cents.
BOStonsox From United States, joined Dec 2007, 1080 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4293 times:
Quoting Iflyatldl (Reply 10): On the other hand, look at BOS/MHT so who knows?
BOS/MHT/PVD is different. Boston's CSA (which includes those areas) is the 5th largest in the country behind Baltimore/Washington, Chicago, LA, and NYC. I think we could still see it work with DL's fares being so high.
Phatfarmlines From United States, joined Sep 2001, 1037 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4247 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6): Not to just boost my own points, as the other points made are quite good (especially about WN's relative health and size), but if DL "allowed" WN to establish a beachhead at CVG, wouldn't that essentially be throwing away 2+ decades of courting FF's in the CVG market?
If WN started service to CVG, they are not going to create a mega-focus city with 100s of flights & effectively replace DL's discontinued flights. If anything, their flight operations in CVG will resemble something like what they have in PIT right now.
AWACSooner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4215 times:
Quoting BalZ18 (Reply 11): Southwest already flies out of CMH, SDF and IND so why place another destination when there are others so close to it? Just my two cents.
WN also flies out of LAX, ONT, BUR and SNA...so what's your point?
AvConsultant From United States, joined Feb 2006, 1201 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4166 times:
Quoting BalZ18 (Reply 11): Southwest already flies out of CMH, SDF and IND so why place another destination when there are others so close to it?
I more than agree. When DL drops to less than 20 flight a day, I would look for FL to jump into the market. Not to ATL, I would say a MKE, BWI and MCO.
Silentbob From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Aug 2006, 975 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4113 times:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the majority of CVG traffic still connecting traffic?
OOer From United States, joined Oct 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4040 times:
With all the cuts, DL is going to be down to about 34-35 mainline flights. Several cities are losing service and frequency reductions. Southwest only needs 2 gates for about 15 flights.
Look at what Southwest did in Denver. United and Frontier hub and Southwest expanded to over 100 daily flights in a matter of about 3 years.
As others stated, I can't see Southwest having 100 flights in Cincinnati, but starting with 10-12 and expanding to 25-30 is very realistic.
How about...
2 X CVG-LAS
3 X CVG-MDW
2 X CVG-HOU
2 X CVG-MCO
2 X CVG-BNA
3 X CVG-BWI
FLYjoe From United States, joined Nov 2005, 156 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3964 times:
Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 13): If WN started service to CVG, they are not going to create a mega-focus city with 100s of flights & effectively replace DL's discontinued flights.
Absolutely! I would hope CVG fans aren't getting their hopes of WN coming in to 'save' them. We saw that with the PIT downsizing over the years and if you listened to our PIT groupies here, WN was going to come in a match US' pull down. PIT is just a nice WN station, not with the growth seen in DEN & PHL, like the PIT faithful expected.
CIDFlyer From United States, joined Apr 2005, 1398 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3899 times:
If DL really pulls way back, I think CVG would be a good midwest hub for FL, great facilities and plenty of room for expansion. At this point its up in the air whether DL will hold onto enough of CVG to stave off competition from LCC's in its backyard. Now that they will go down to 215 daily flights it doesn't leave them too much room to go any smaller if they do intend on planning to keep CVG as a 'hub'.
LHCVG From United States, joined May 2009, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3695 times:
Quoting BalZ18 (Reply 11): Southwest already flies out of CMH, SDF and IND so why place another destination when there are others so close to it? Just my two cents.
It's not as if WN doesn't have fans on the periphery of the Cincy area who go to SDF (NKy, possibly IN too), CMH (NE, particularly outer rim such as Wilmington), IND (IN burbs and NW Hamilton County), plus if anyone has a burning desire to fly FL they can jet up to DAY (particularly for the northern Cincy suburbs). Obviously they could likely "recruit" additional flyers who just don't want to go through the hassle of driving to another airport than CVG, but wouldn't WN coming to CVG reduce their economies of scale at these 3 other stations near to Cincinnati--I'd imagine that total pax for WN would increase for this greater region, but with the decreases from people who used to drive to SDF or CMH or IND, wouldn't that negate many of the pax WN got from CVG? My thinking here being that yes they gain some number of pax but have to deal with the costs of setting up a brand new operation whereas the other 3 stations are well-established WN outposts, with loyal fanbase and already fully equipped with signage, staff, equipment, etc..
ThegreatRDU From United States, joined Mar 2006, 579 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3638 times:
Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 8):
If Southwest enters a market, they will not lose. My guess is that Southwest is just waiting for the the operation to get smaller in which they can invade with easy success. It's not a matter of if, it when.
Well said CVG will happen but WN will be really conservative there...the surrounding airports could be cannibalized...
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 14): WN also flies out of LAX, ONT, BUR and SNA...so what's your point?
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13517 posts, RR: 14 Reply 24, posted (4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3625 times:
Quoting OOer (Reply 21): I figured CVG-BNA would be a good option because it would give CVG pax access to the entire southern region instead of just MCO.
That's a fair point, though OTOH they aren't going to fly MKE-BNA, and you could make a similar argument there.
SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3701 posts, RR: 14 Reply 28, posted (4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3595 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 26): Given the way that many newer WN markets have opened (though MKE seems to be the exception), I'd look for more of the following:
5x MDW
4x BWI
1x MCO
1x HOU
1x STL
More focus on business markets, and I'd say MDW would get the most flights due to it being the largest business market in proximity to CVG.
I also think you would see 2x CVG-DEN.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7317 posts, RR: 16 Reply 29, posted (4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3503 times:
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 28):
I also think you would see 2x CVG-DEN.
I excluded DEN on purpose, as I think between the MDW (and if a HOU flight happened, that to a lesser extent) flights, those passengers can get to pretty much any destination west of the Mississippi. I see it as they did with MSP - start out with MDW, and then if there are a number of west-bound connecting passengers filling up those MDW flights, then look at adding DEN in the second batch of flights.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13517 posts, RR: 14 Reply 30, posted (4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3115 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 29): I excluded DEN on purpose, as I think between the MDW (and if a HOU flight happened, that to a lesser extent) flights, those passengers can get to pretty much any destination west of the Mississippi.
Look again to MKE-- they aren't starting MKE-DEN but are using MCI, LAS and PHX for westbound connections. They could do the same with MDW, LAS, and PHX at CVG.
TAN FLYR From United States, joined Aug 2000, 1486 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2782 times:
Quoting Enilria (Reply 7): They may, but the trouble is that SDF and CMH which they already serve are close. OTOH, if B6/VX/FL announced 10 flights a day then WN would announce it immediately.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7317 posts, RR: 16 Reply 33, posted (4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2787 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30): Look again to MKE-- they aren't starting MKE-DEN but are using MCI, LAS and PHX for westbound connections. They could do the same with MDW, LAS, and PHX at CVG.
MKE I think is a bit of a different animal, in that MDW-MKE would make pretty much zero sense for WN to operate. Thus, they need to get their passengers westbound somehow; however, MDW filled this role for MSP (not too far out of the way), and will for LGA/BOS.
Of course, I wouldn't be shocked to see a CVG-PHX or CVG-LAS flight in the initial grouping; I just think CVG-MDW will be the first option for Western connections, and from that, if WN sees a pattern of connections from there, they might add service as necessary. If it's a lot of SoCal connections, then a PHX/LAS flight would probably make more sense than a DEN flight. If it's a lot of stuff in the Rockies (and some Pac NW), then DEN might make more sense than PHX/LAS.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4205 posts, RR: 11 Reply 34, posted (4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2740 times:
Previous to Feb., 2005, when DL downgraded the DFW hub, both SLC and DFW were in sort of a competition with each other to see which would survive as a hub. Obviously, SLC won and I wonder, today, if the same sort of competition was held today, if CVG would be in competition with the other two if maybe DFW wouldn't have survived over CVG.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2468 posts, RR: 11 Reply 36, posted (4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2684 times:
Quoting Silentbob (Reply 16): Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the majority of CVG traffic still connecting traffic?
For a discussion on another board, I just checked DOT stat's and saw that for 4Q'08, SAN-CVG had 67 O&D pax/day total and SEA-CVG saw 109! Yeah, I'd say for both of those markets to be seeing ANY service this winter (they will both have 1 daily r/t), it's got to be connecting traffic...
More to the topic, WN is a bit tapped right now with expansion so I would say CVG is probably somewhere on "THE" list but obviously other cities were (are) higher. It's getting rather difficult these days, for me anyway, to try to even imagine what Canyon Blue might do next...
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7317 posts, RR: 16 Reply 37, posted (4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2679 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 36):
For a discussion on another board, I just checked DOT stat's and saw that for 4Q'08, SAN-CVG had 67 O&D pax/day total and SEA-CVG saw 109! Yeah, I'd say for both of those markets to be seeing ANY service this winter (they will both have 1 daily r/t), it's got to be connecting traffic...
CVG-SEA could probably survive at 1x daily - there's still a bit of connecting traffic from the Delta-heavy east coast markets that would feed into this flight and fill it up.
Long-term though, I see CVG becoming more of an A319 domain - much easier to fill up 124 seats on the A319 than 160 on the 737-800. I wouldn't be shocked to see some A319s head to CVG while MD-80/MD-90/737-800s head up to DTW/MSP.
CIDFlyer From United States, joined Apr 2005, 1398 posts, RR: 3 Reply 38, posted (4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2513 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 37): Long-term though, I see CVG becoming more of an A319 domain - much easier to fill up 124 seats on the A319 than 160 on the 737-800. I wouldn't be shocked to see some A319s head to CVG while MD-80/MD-90/737-800s head up to DTW/MSP.
that would make more sense if it is to remain a hub for DL.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13517 posts, RR: 14 Reply 39, posted (4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2285 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 33): I just think CVG-MDW will be the first option for Western connections, and from that, if WN sees a pattern of connections from there, they might add service as necessary. If it's a lot of SoCal connections, then a PHX/LAS flight would probably make more sense than a DEN flight. If it's a lot of stuff in the Rockies (and some Pac NW), then DEN might make more sense than PHX/LAS.
I agree. Of course, though, DEN isn't the best connecting point for that many cities, and WN likely wouldn't carry a lot of CVG-SLC traffic. OTOH, CVG-DEN is less competitive than many DEN-midwest city pairs.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7317 posts, RR: 16 Reply 40, posted (4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2273 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 38): that would make more sense if it is to remain a hub for DL.
I think CVG will not be completely abandoned by Delta - a large focus city, yes, but not abandoned. It wouldn't shock me at all to see 24 months from now CVG having service to mostly the hubs/focus cities plus some other major centers.
I wouldn't be shocked if CVG looked something like this:
Not a whole lot of mainline outside the hubs - basically, take a look at what IND was in its heyday a year or so ago for NW and make it a little larger. DL would probably be able to consolidate the operation into B1-B12 part of the concourse, especially if they combine some of the widebody gates into double parking spots for RJs. 75-90 daily flights out of CVG would seem to be a decent-sized focus city that would seemingly be optimized for CVG O&D traffic, as well as some minimal connecting traffic to flow over it and alleviate DTW/ATL for connections from those cities that aren't connected to CVG.
UPSMD11 From United States, joined May 2003, 744 posts, RR: 7 Reply 41, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1969 times:
Oh please, just what we need, more people flying with their Wal-mart bags. The only thing I like about Southwest is how they keep the other airlines in check on fares here in SDF. I truly detest flying them and hope they do open up CVG and take some flights away from SDF!
Iowaman From United States, joined May 2004, 3483 posts, RR: 8 Reply 42, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1938 times:
Quoting UPSMD11 (Reply 41): Oh please, just what we need, more people flying with their Wal-mart bags.
Actually, the other airlines usually end up with more of the Wal-mart bags, since WN keeps fares in check and the other airlines undercut, plus sell on expedia, orbitz, etc. where the lower class is more likely to look, rather than directly at southwest.com since they likely don't know to go directly there anyways.
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 13611 posts, RR: 93 Reply 43, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1922 times:
Quoting Iowaman (Reply 42): Actually, the other airlines usually end up with more of the Wal-mart bags, since WN keeps fares in check and the other airlines undercut, plus sell on expedia, orbitz, etc. where the lower class is more likely to look, rather than directly at southwest.com since they likely don't know to go directly there anyways.
Hmmmm?
If they can find Expedia or Travelocity, I'm sure they can find Southwest.com.
Iowaman From United States, joined May 2004, 3483 posts, RR: 8 Reply 44, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1897 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 43): If they can find Expedia or Travelocity, I'm sure they can find Southwest.com
But, most people are going to go to the well known and advertised sites that search multiple airlines, and many of my relatives for example that don't travel much don't know that those search engines don't search Southwest.
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 13611 posts, RR: 93 Reply 45, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1882 times:
Quoting Iowaman (Reply 44): But, most people are going to go to the well known and advertised sites that search multiple airlines, and many of my relatives for example that don't travel much don't know that those search engines don't search Southwest.
I think that's a generalization, I never know what "most people" do - especially given that the great majority of Southwest's booking are from the web.
Steeler83 From United States, joined Feb 2006, 7362 posts, RR: 20 Reply 46, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1775 times:
Quoting FLYjoe (Reply 18): We saw that with the PIT downsizing over the years and if you listened to our PIT groupies here, WN was going to come in a match US' pull down. PIT is just a nice WN station, not with the growth seen in DEN & PHL, like the PIT faithful expected.
It was heavily rumored that they were going to turn PIT into another BNA (60-70 flights/day), and then the ACAA hiked up the fees, putting an end to those rumors, at least for now anyway...
CVG, a cheap airport to operate out of? I still keep hearing that it's one of the most expensive airports in the country. I think what we're going to see at least in the forseeable future, unless things improve greatly with this economy, is a continued expansion at DEN by connecting existing WN dots.
I guess we could see WN come into PVD, LIT, or JAX from DEN at some point in the future if they please. I believe they've filled in most of the major WN destinations already.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7317 posts, RR: 16 Reply 48, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1690 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 47): Wow, trying to pour salt in the CVG wound with this schedule. ATL & DTW, currently, 6x. MSP 7x.
Not trying to pour salt in the CVG wound, but looking at it from a realistic perspective of cities that have strong O&D out of CVG (from faremeasure.com) plus increasing service to the DTW/ATL (and lesser extent, MSP) hubs as those passengers that are currently on the nonstops to CID/BHM/etc. will need to make connections in the future.
AvConsultant From United States, joined Feb 2006, 1201 posts, RR: 3 Reply 49, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1676 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 48): realistic perspective of cities that have strong O&D out of CVG (from faremeasure.com) plus increasing service to the DTW/ATL (and lesser extent, MSP) hubs as those passengers that are currently on the nonstops to CID/BHM/etc. will need to make connections in the future.
I predict in 2011, CVG will look like DFW. There is a new thread of OAG changes that have CVG cut further. To my surprise, MEM is now larger than CVG.
TxAgKuwait From United States, joined Aug 1999, 1650 posts, RR: 53 Reply 50, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1612 times:
CVG's O&D numbers are pretty bad, it is tough to imagine that this is a "hub" that we're discussing. I guess in all fairness the numbers would be better if the fares weren't so horrible. A 94 cent yield to Chicago?
Here's the 4th Quarter DOT O&D numbers, along with where I think WN will inaugurate service and the sort of fares you might expect to see. Initial pattern would be 14 flights. That could be done in one gate but two gates would be much better.
Skibum9 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 1211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1525 times:
Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 50): CVG's O&D numbers are pretty bad, it is tough to imagine that this is a "hub" that we're discussing. I guess in all fairness the numbers would be better if the fares weren't so horrible. A 94 cent yield to Chicago?
Here's the 4th Quarter DOT O&D numbers, along with where I think WN will inaugurate service and the sort of fares you might expect to see. Initial pattern would be 14 flights. That could be done in one gate but two gates would be much better.
4Q'08 are very misleading numbers and are not reflective of the significant increase in O&D that has occurred since DL brought their "rape the city" pricing down to something more reasonable and in line with fares out of other cities. Last week, the local paper reported that O&D has increased at CVG by 54% over the same period last year, and at the same time DAY has reported a decline of 10%.
Phatfarmlines From United States, joined Sep 2001, 1037 posts, RR: 7 Reply 52, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1464 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 51): 4Q'08 are very misleading numbers and are not reflective of the significant increase in O&D that has occurred since DL brought their "rape the city" pricing down to something more reasonable and in line with fares out of other cities. Last week, the local paper reported that O&D has increased at CVG by 54% over the same period last year, and at the same time DAY has reported a decline of 10%.
DL is following the same public relations strategy that US did with PIT. Here is an article from late 2005 about US lowering fares at PIT. Did this help save PIT for US? Nope, and I'm afraid DL is headed down the same path. Look for DL to use the "but our yields are too weak" argument in convincing the city of CVG that a focus operation is no longer viable.
TxAgKuwait From United States, joined Aug 1999, 1650 posts, RR: 53 Reply 53, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1377 times:
Quote: 4Q'08 are very misleading numbers and are not reflective of the significant increase in O&D that has occurred since DL brought their "rape the city" pricing down to something more reasonable
I would hate to see what fares they would be charging had they not decided to be reasonable. I also imagine that reasonable is in the eye of the beholder.
It's Sunday night. Let's say I am a businessman and I need to book a trip from CVG to Chicago Tuesday A.M. and come back Wednesday afternoon. The best fare is $449 RT. The fully refundable ticket fare is $908.
Compare that to the worst case scenario for WN on a flight of similar length...Dallas to Houston or Dallas to Lubbock. $277 RT gets me there and back and I can check two bags for free. That IS the fully refundable fare.
Slashing the walk-up fully refundable fare to Chicago from Cincinatti by half will take a lot of folks who are driving and put them in an airplane seat. Mark it down.
CVG is not a potential gold mine, but it could be a decent station for an airline committed to giving passengers value. As it stands, the O&D numbers for CVG are less impressive, say, than those for Little Rock. And they are absolutely miniscule when compared to a midwestern city of abot the same size, like Omaha.
Wow, 36 average O&D pax? If that's the case, then why is that route even served?
Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 53): O&D numbers for CVG are less impressive, say, than those for Little Rock. And they are absolutely miniscule when compared to a midwestern city of abot the same size, like Omaha.
Heck, I think PIT's O&D numbers are better than CVG's and they've come up over the past few years. PIT isn't exactly an O&D goldmine either...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
AADC10 From United States, joined Nov 2004, 954 posts, RR: 1 Reply 55, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 987 times:
WN will probably go to CVG eventually but they are not in a rush to expand because as with most of the other airlines they are struggling to remain profitable on operations and CVG is not a great prize.
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 14): WN also flies out of LAX, ONT, BUR and SNA...so what's your point?
That is very different. Each one of those airports serves an area that has a larger and often wealthier population that CVG, even though they are all in the Los Angeles region. Los Angeles is the second largest city in the U.S. and Cincinnati is about 56th. The population of Los Angeles is more than ten times greater. The difference is even greater still if you go by metropolitan region.
Steeler83 From United States, joined Feb 2006, 7362 posts, RR: 20 Reply 56, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 919 times:
Quoting AADC10 (Reply 55): Los Angeles is the second largest city in the U.S. and Cincinnati is about 56th. The population of Los Angeles is more than ten times greater. The difference is even greater still if you go by metropolitan region.
L.A. is 2nd largest in terms of MSA, while I believe Cincinnati's MSA ranks around 25th, with about 2.1 million residents. I forget how many folks inhabit the LA area. I'd guess around 10 million or so if I'm not mistaken. It's about half the size of New York City's metro area I believe.
That's rather interesting when you think about BUR, ONT, and SNA, with the addition of the main int'l airport LAX. All of those airports serve a few million pax, yet LAX still serves some 60 million pax. Isn't LA the 3rd busiest airport system in the country behind NYC and Chicago?
(I left out LGB only because WN does not serve Long Beach. I believe that is B6's domain.)
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