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AI To Cancel Last 7 777-337ER's  
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2971 posts, RR: 7
Posted (5 years 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 19851 times:

I know that the guy who wrote this story has his sources in top places, the Civil Aviation Minister himself.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.p...=com_content&task=view§ionid=4
Pity, but AI is broke!


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 19796 times:

"Air India also plans to take Boeing to court over non-delivery of the dreamliner 787 aircraft."

That should be interesting...  Wink

Boeing says that Air India have 15 777-300ERs on order and I believe they've received five so far. So will they be taking three more?


User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2468 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 19764 times:

Poor AI.  Sad

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
"Air India also plans to take Boeing to court over non-delivery of the dreamliner 787 aircraft."

That should be interesting... Wink

I cannot wait! Big grin Big grin Big grin



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 19766 times:



Quoting Cricket (Thread starter):
AI To Cancel Last 7 777-337ER's

Taking another look at the article, it only mentions "777s". Might two of the cancellations as easily be the remaining 777-200LRs?


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2971 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 19636 times:

From what I hear the last two 777-237LR's are already being built.


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 19613 times:

That's too bad......The -300/ERs were really good replacements for the 744s....

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 19618 times:

G'day

Interesting math stated in the article

"7 Boeing 777 aircraft each costing around 250 million dollars to save over 8 billion dollars" Big grin

Are those the 7 aircraft TK gets on relatively short delivery?  Wow!



Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 19582 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 1):
"Air India also plans to take Boeing to court over non-delivery of the dreamliner 787 aircraft."

Could they afford to buy them if Boeing could deliver them?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAustralis From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 19500 times:

Guess we need to wait until the official AI PR comes out and states this... though, be sad to see them cancelling these birds, considering they were obviously a way to remove the 747s from the fleet. Though, wouldnt new birds also provide them with savings, in fuel costs and such??

Oh well, hopefully these cancelled orders only help another airline get their faster and flying in the air soon!!  Smile


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 19487 times:

At the end of June (i.e. the first half of the year) Boeing had a net order book of one plane after cancellations. This won't help.

User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 19419 times:



Quoting The777Man (Reply 5):
That's too bad......The -300/ERs were really good replacements for the 744s....

Correct. Although their 744 fleet can be refurbished and kept up to standards, at a lower price tag.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Could they afford to buy them if Boeing could deliver them?

Probably not. One also has to wonder how this will effect Air India Express /Indian Airlines orders for the 737/A32X.

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
At the end of June (i.e. the first half of the year) Boeing had a net order book of one plane after cancellations. This won't help.

That is correct PM. What is more worrying is that 81 of the 84 cancellations were for wide-body aircraft.

747 -1
767 - 5
777 - 2
787 - 73


Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 19322 times:

Quoting Cricket (Thread starter):
AI To Cancel Last 7 777-337ER's

Sad to see this. I did not expect AI to cancel any of their ordered aircraft. However, the recent cash problems and also there is a rumor that their recently launched direct US flights were not doing well. Probably the above factors might have forced AI to take this extreme step.

As they have a plan to trim the fleet, they should also have a plan to trim the work-army to sustain in the future.

Quote:
Government sources said the decision to delay payment of June wages was just to send a signal to employees that it's not business as usual at AI. The loss-ridden airline is now going to see a serious attempt to downsize its workforce for which a leave-without-pay scheme has already been launched and VRS could soon follow along with a leaner fleet size. To begin with, 46 leased aircraft are being returned.

AI told to start low-cost service

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/B...st-service/articleshow/4736045.cms

Quote:
The man in the eye of the AI storm, aviation minister Praful Patel, on Friday said a plan is being worked out for AI revival that has just one important condition - employees' wholehearted support to turn the airline around. "Despite all problems, we'll turn around AI. That's a challenge we accept," said Patel.

"AI must enter the domestic low cost segment. That's where the growth is and is something that Jet and Kingfisher have already done. It's upto the airline whether to use AI Express for that purpose or have something else. But the business model has to be redefined," he said. TOI had first reported two weeks back that AI will be entering the domestic low-cost segment. Patel said he had earlier also asked AI management to begin domestic low cost flights but "now they have to do that".



[Edited 2009-07-04 01:44:16]

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18865 times:

Wow, if true this must be the largest 77W cancellation so far.
Not too surprising. AI has a high debt and surely other problems than taking aircraft which they dont need urgently. The fact that Air Indias 744 can easily serve for another then years will make such decision easier for them. Also, through the cancellation of those 77Ws they will be more flexible in the future. If business improves again or even booms in a few years, they could get A380s or 748Is easier, or A350s if its getting worse. Overall I think its a good idea to cancel the 77Ws now, as it raises the chances for a more advanced, more interesting, and even more economical future fleet. The 777 appeared to be the right plan for AI when they were ordered some years ago, but with the crisis and more advanced aircraft soon available, the scenario has changed.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6861 posts, RR: 77
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18780 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 12):
If business improves again or even booms in a few years, they could get A380s or 748Is easier, or A350s if its getting worse.

At least they had finalized that 777 order and took delivery of aircraft. Considering how long it took to finalize certain orders in the past one could fear that they won't be able to get new widebodies in that class until the successors of the A350s and 787s start moving to the desert...  Wink


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18696 times:



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 13):
At least they had finalized that 777 order and took delivery of aircraft. Considering how long it took to finalize certain orders in the past one could fear that they won't be able to get new widebodies in that class until the successors of the A350s and 787s start moving to the desert...  

How long did it take them to decide on the 777s? 5 years at least. To be a manager at AI is certainly not the best reputation to have in a meeting with a headhunter!  Big grin


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18029 times:

A.Netter Ojas mentioned in the Indian Aviation thread that the original plan was for AI to receive, in 3Q 2009, all remaining 77Ls (3) and 4 more 77Ws .

If this is true, and the 7 order cancellation is also true, then the last of the four 77Ws that were to be delivered in 3Q 2009 would already be in production.

It is possible that the original delivery schedule for AIs last 6 77Ws could have been such that their major components for those not have been fabricated yet.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17972 times:

Hang on a minute, isn't India supposed to be the emerging market along with China? What rubbish we have to listen to.

Let us not forget that without the West consuming the rest of the world falls quickly into economic decline.

I expect a lot of Middle Eastern cancellations for aircraft to come soon too. No one's gong anywhere till the West recovers.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31132 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17882 times:
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Well if AI is ready to take Boeing to court over the 787 delays, they might be playing hard-ball with Boeing to try and unilaterally breach their delivery contracts on any 777s already in production to save the deposits and progress payments.

One would think that AI would be hurting their case, however, by suing Boeing for late delivery of planes they might not be in a position to actually afford to take delivery of.  confused 


User currently offlineMul77W From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16589 times:

I'm not so sure what they'll achieve in taking Boeing to court, though cancelling the remaining 77W's on order isn't a bad idea at all given their circumstances.

AI started refurbishing their 747-400's with new overhead bins similar to the 777 and nose to tail AVOD in 2007. So far I've seen a photo of one 747 that's been refurbished, but have all of them been refurbished yet? Seems as though they've been taking their time given a relatively small fleet of 747's (taking into account the -400's that they own only). Once they've tidied up the rest of their 747's their long haul fleet is actually quite good and they'd be able to do without those extra 777's for a little longer.

http://home.airindia.in/SBCMS/Webpages/2007-deluxe-aircraft.aspx


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16191 times:

I wonder if this is a deferral, not cancelation, misconstrued in the game of telephone rumors gothrough.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 16047 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
One would think that AI would be hurting their case, however, by suing Boeing for late delivery of planes they might not be in a position to actually afford to take delivery of.

Well they could make the case that the improved load factors and purported lower operating costs of the 787s would result in better ROIs than with the 777s.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 16):
Let us not forget that without the West consuming the rest of the world falls quickly into economic decline.

 Yeah sure Then why dont you petition BA to not defer their A380 deliveries?


User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14927 times:

AI has been waiting for the B787s to replace those old an d ugly A310s and even uglier A332s leased from Novair or something. Due to the delay in the deliveries, their HKG-KIX,NBO, DMM etc routes are suffering. These are routes that the A320/A321s cannot do comfortably nor do they warrant the B744 or the B772.

As for the B744s I can confirm 5 out of 6 have not been refurbished and neither has the 6th one. I mean all what they did was changed the seat cover and few minor changes. They have not installed AVOD in 5 of their 6 B744s for sure. Either ways those B744s are doing routes to Saudi Arabia exclusively so AI won't be bothering much.

As far as the B77Ws go, I guess they are talking as many B77Ws required for current operations and not for major expansion purposes. AI is going to take all of its B77L deliveries.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14746 times:



Quoting Ojas (Reply 21):
Either ways those B744s are doing routes to Saudi Arabia exclusively so AI won't be bothering much.

Are you sure?! I thought BOM-FRA and DEL-LHR were still operated with the B744.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14645 times:



Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 22):
Are you sure?! I thought BOM-FRA and DEL-LHR were still operated with the B744.

Very recent pictures (from June) on a.net showing AIs 744s at JFK and FRA are proof that

Quoting Ojas (Reply 21):
Either ways those B744s are doing routes to Saudi Arabia exclusively so AI won't be bothering much.

is rubbish.


User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14557 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 23):
Very recent pictures (from June) on a.net showing AIs 744s at JFK and FRA are proof that

Are you sure that those were the dates the photos of the AI B744 at JFK were actually snapped and not the dates that they were posted on a.net? I dont think that AI has flown a B744 to JFK in quite a while. I know for a fact that they were doing a DEL-FRA-EWR routing with the B744. DOnt know if they still are.


25 Post contains links and images WILCO737 : The last picture of a 744 of AI in JFK on a.net is dated from 2008... I have seen a 744 of them in FRA in June - I think. Not 100% sure. Here is one
26 Boeing747_600 : You beat me by 2 mins! I was just goin to post that myself! I think FRA is (may not be for much longer) a terminator destination for AI's B744s. The
27 WILCO737 : Sorry I see the 777s more often in FRA than th 744, so I guess that's correct. wilco737
28 Ojas : They will be making those changes mid july or August onwards, forgot to point that out. The B744s will all be removed from USA routes and be put on J
29 Ojas : They never did that routing. EWR was always originating in AMD/BOM. It was for years via CDG for a short time via LHR and now va FRA. AI did DEL-LHR-
30 Post contains links and images NA : Sorry its not JFK, its Newark, 6 weeks ago according to the photographer. New York anyway, somehow View Large View MediumPhoto © Ken Iwelumo - G
31 Mham001 : Agreed. More hype than substance. Now let's see if China can succeed in spending its way to domestic prosperity.[Edited 2009-07-04 15:01:58]
32 WestWing : Do you have access to a reliable source to resolve the question of whether AI were originally planning to receive 3 more 77Ws or 4 more 77Ws by Octob
33 Ojas : I think it is 3 more and not 4 more. On our Indian aviation forum it is mentioned that they will have 8 B77Ws ( earlier it was planned for 9) and 8 L
34 AirNZ : Funny, I don't recall it being "more hype than substance" not so long ago when the outcry from (mostly) American members on this forum was about the
35 WestWing : Yes, that is what I was asking. So the earlier plan was for a total of 9 77Ws by October. Thanks.
36 Post contains links Jfk777 : There are several Air India 777 at the Paine Field in Seattle already painted and ready for their maiden flights to India. www.paine-field.com
37 Pellegrine : Well that was a factor...the rate of usage growth, although the BRICs can use as much as they please, it's their sovereign right. I'll maintain that
38 Pellegrine : " target=_blank>www.paine-field.com Looks like: 1 77L Undetermined reg. and 1 77W VT-ALO
39 WestWing : My guess: The 77L is VT-ALG, likely to be named "Kerela", (VT-ALO is Karnataka).
40 Ojas : Nothing, they will beautify the BOM tarmac.
41 Boeing747_600 : What is the logic behind a terminator AMD-FRA terminator flight?! Connectivity to AI's FRA-ORD and FRA-EWR flights? Wouldn't an AMD-DEL or AMD-BOM fe
42 Gr8circle : The reality is that a major factor behind the unrealistic rise in the oil prices last year was the speculative trading by US financial institutions..
43 PVG : That's already happened and the "rest of the world" seems to be coming out in substantially better shape than the west. Maybe the people who save mor
44 Ojas : connecting to FRA-EWR in particular and also to ORD flights. In future to YYZ as well. And mind you AMD-EWR sees full flights, and while the AMD-BOM-
45 Post contains images Aviationbuff : The most profitable sector for AI is Gulf and only this attitude of AI is diverting the passengers to alternate airline (EK, SV, QR, GF etc..) I coul
46 JerseyFlyer : I think this nicely sets up an out of court settlement. AI forgives Boeing for not delivering 787s on time and Boeing forgives AI for not taking 777s
47 Deaphen : Legally speaking, those two transactions (the delivery of the 787's and the cancelled 777's) will be totally separate from each other. I have finance
48 Jfk777 : Air India should not be so pig headed, Boeing could also help its and Air India's cause by helping lease out these 777 for a few years. Qantas has an
49 Aerokiwi : Myth. Excess global credit (from everyone to sovereign welath funds to government pension plans, in both the west and the "East") required new wealth
50 NA : Ancient? Even the oldest QF744 can fly at least five years longer if needed. And those which will be replaced will be followed by A380s. QF has 3 A38
51 Gr8Circle : Which is saying the same thing in different words.....
52 HAWK21M : Before anyone thinks about saying the contrary......Safety is related to Maintenance & NOT Age. regds MEL.
53 Mk777 : Also, they would use it for the ATQ-FRA-YYZ flights!!! Also, the current B744 BOM-FRA-EWR will also see a 77W, right? Hence only 7 77W required. 1 DE
54 Behramjee : GDS for Winter 09-10 schedule still show B 77W being used daily for AMD FRA AMD!!! Also can a B 77W fly nonstop with a full payload in both direction
55 Ojas : DEL - JFK - DEL will not be a problem both ways and neither will JFK - BOM. BOM - JFK will have a minor penalty.
56 Ojas : yes, DEL - SFO is supposed to be 4 weekly and not daily. So yes 1-2 aircrafts required. You forgot BOM-LHR. Also in August AMD - FRA switches to B77W
57 Post contains links Boeing747_600 : AI's 777 flight crew have already been through several SFO briefings
58 Jfk777 : SFO for Air India would be AWSOME. SFO is the natural west coast gateway since AI is joining Star Alliance.
59 Mk777 : Well today both flights AI 121 and 131 were 77L flights (from flightstats.com). is that normal??? That is why i grouped BOM-LHR and AMD-FRA with 77L
60 Ojas : no. BOM - LHR is a scheduled B77W and have B77Ls on certain days. By Seeing the changes it can be possible that one of the B77W routes will be subbed
61 WestWing : Two completely separate things of note. a. Reportedly the Union Budget (today) has no provisions for any Govt bailout of AI. So some press reports sug
62 AirIndia : Usually such bailouts are announced seperately and not with union budgets. Also, the govt avoided the divestment issue altogether.
63 Ikramerica : wiki is premature as Boeing has not reflected any cancellations yet.
64 WestWing : Someone has since fixed the Wikipedia entry (i.e., "un-done" the edit about the 77W cancellations) with the terse but accurate comment "there is no pr
65 ArabAirX : Has this cancelation been confirmed??
66 Ikramerica : Not by Boeing. It still may be a deferral for all we know, or conversion to 789s, or who knows?
67 WestWing : When Boeing updated their orders and deliveries web page on 9th July there was no mention of any 777 cancellations. So nothing has been formalized yet
68 Kiramakora : India and China are still slated to grow over 7% this year. Given the current world environment where other major emerging economies struggle, it is
69 AirIndia : I guess many corporations have placed their long term strategies on that possibility. Insha allah u have a long life........... vaise on a lighter no
70 Jfk777 : Air India should retire whatever OLD plane it needs to rid itself of and get those 777's. Even if they only fly to Singapore. AI needs to finish the r
71 LipeGIG : Wow, at current list price we're talking about US$ 17-20 billion in cancellations That's not a guarantee of civil aviation growth. Both are growing t
72 LeftWing : ...similar was quoted by Vujay Malaya...."India is poor while Indians are rich".....and now Indians dont want to travel on 20 yrs old A310 with out I
73 Jfk777 : Isn't it funny how Kingfisher and Jet Airways are the ones causing Air India to order the 777 and 787's. Yes India does have too much capacity and th
74 Post contains links Aviationbuff : Air India gets $1 billion loan to fund aircraft purchases http://www.flightglobal.com/staticpages/emailnewsletters.htm The funds will be used to pay f
75 Mk777 : Ok, so the 3 B772 are VT-ALF/G/H. Isn't ALF already a part of the fleet? Also, i am assuming the 4 77W are VT-ALO/P/Q/R, didn't ALO just join the fle
76 Ojas : Does paying for 4 B77W mean that new 4 aircrafts would come? It could mean that one existing B77W is included into the 4 B77W payment list.
77 WestWing : If this statement is correct, it actually makes a lot of sense, because AI would receive three 77Ls and four 77Ws this year which is exactly the same
78 Aviationbuff : As posted by WestWing in the Indian Aviation Thread (reply=163) A new delivery VT-ALO (AI's sixth 77W) should be arriving in DEL from PAE in a few mi
79 WestWing : The previous 77W was delivered a year ago (11 July 2008). It had better be financed already.
80 Post contains links WestWing : For what it is worth: No cancellation of aircraft order yet by Air India: Boeing The article mentions that AI will receive five 777s in this fiscal ye
81 Post contains links Cricket : The latest courtesy Hindustan Times is that AI will cancel the last five 777-237LR's and demand $710mn for the delay on the 787-837's http://www.hindu
82 Post contains links LondonCity : Now reported on Flight's website: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...eing-to-cancel-six-777-300ers.html
83 Frigatebird : I'm wondering why AI is so keen on cancellation instead of deferral. Pretty sure Boeing will subtract cancellation fees from their compensation claim
84 Asiaflyer : Only if it is included in the contract, which would highly surprise me.
85 Cricket : So, to take the HT and the Flight story together, AI doesn't know which 777's it is going to cancel - the 77L's or the 77W's. I am not sure of the cur
86 Mk777 : I think its sure that AI will receive their last 2 77L's-VT-ALG/H The last 6 77W's, however, i think are going to be canceled and since VT-ALO has al
87 Cricket : I just spoke to the Editor of HT and pointed out the error to him.
88 WestWing : " target=_blank>http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html As of today AI has one 77L and nine 77Ws on order. The Flightglobal article which was pu
89 WestWing : Here is an nteresting observation on the flow of information internally in AI, The HT story quotes Arvind Jadhav speaking on Thursday (maybe earlier)
90 Jetstar : I was just out in SEA over the weekend and took the Boeing plant tour. I saw an almost totally completed B-777 if the front position on the assembly
91 WestWing : Hmmm. An AI 777 at the front position a few days back, I would expect ought to have been the 16th 777 for AI (not the 13th). So, if the banner did sa
92 Mk777 : well 6 77L and 6 77W have been delivered for a total of 12. i guess the 13th 777 should be the 7th 77L (VT-ALG) which was delivered on July 29th as p
93 Stitch : Perhaps it really is the 13th and is on the line having interiors fitted or other work done while #14-16 are out on the flight line?
94 Jetstar : I could be wrong about the number, it was on the opposite side of the bay from where we were standing and the bay door was opened and the sun was shi
95 WestWing : Yes, the -300 series are noticeably longer than the -200, epecially if you have both to compare. As Mk777 said, I too am inclined to believe you most
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