Australis From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 84 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16787 times:
Guess we need to wait until the official AI PR comes out and states this... though, be sad to see them cancelling these birds, considering they were obviously a way to remove the 747s from the fleet. Though, wouldnt new birds also provide them with savings, in fuel costs and such??
Oh well, hopefully these cancelled orders only help another airline get their faster and flying in the air soon!!
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2781 posts, RR: 75 Reply 10, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16706 times:
Quoting The777Man (Reply 5): That's too bad......The -300/ERs were really good replacements for the 744s....
Correct. Although their 744 fleet can be refurbished and kept up to standards, at a lower price tag.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): Could they afford to buy them if Boeing could deliver them?
Probably not. One also has to wonder how this will effect Air India Express /Indian Airlines orders for the 737/A32X.
Quoting PM (Reply 9): At the end of June (i.e. the first half of the year) Boeing had a net order book of one plane after cancellations. This won't help.
That is correct PM. What is more worrying is that 81 of the 84 cancellations were for wide-body aircraft.
Sad to see this. I did not expect AI to cancel any of their ordered aircraft. However, the recent cash problems and also there is a rumor that their recently launched direct US flights were not doing well. Probably the above factors might have forced AI to take this extreme step.
As they have a plan to trim the fleet, they should also have a plan to trim the work-army to sustain in the future.
Quote: Government sources said the decision to delay payment of June wages was just to send a signal to employees that it's not business as usual at AI. The loss-ridden airline is now going to see a serious attempt to downsize its workforce for which a leave-without-pay scheme has already been launched and VRS could soon follow along with a leaner fleet size. To begin with, 46 leased aircraft are being returned.
Quote: The man in the eye of the AI storm, aviation minister Praful Patel, on Friday said a plan is being worked out for AI revival that has just one important condition - employees' wholehearted support to turn the airline around. "Despite all problems, we'll turn around AI. That's a challenge we accept," said Patel.
"AI must enter the domestic low cost segment. That's where the growth is and is something that Jet and Kingfisher have already done. It's upto the airline whether to use AI Express for that purpose or have something else. But the business model has to be redefined," he said. TOI had first reported two weeks back that AI will be entering the domestic low-cost segment. Patel said he had earlier also asked AI management to begin domestic low cost flights but "now they have to do that".
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 6795 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 16152 times:
Wow, if true this must be the largest 77W cancellation so far.
Not too surprising. AI has a high debt and surely other problems than taking aircraft which they dont need urgently. The fact that Air Indias 744 can easily serve for another then years will make such decision easier for them. Also, through the cancellation of those 77Ws they will be more flexible in the future. If business improves again or even booms in a few years, they could get A380s or 748Is easier, or A350s if its getting worse. Overall I think its a good idea to cancel the 77Ws now, as it raises the chances for a more advanced, more interesting, and even more economical future fleet. The 777 appeared to be the right plan for AI when they were ordered some years ago, but with the crisis and more advanced aircraft soon available, the scenario has changed.
PlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 3128 posts, RR: 71 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16067 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 12): If business improves again or even booms in a few years, they could get A380s or 748Is easier, or A350s if its getting worse.
At least they had finalized that 777 order and took delivery of aircraft. Considering how long it took to finalize certain orders in the past one could fear that they won't be able to get new widebodies in that class until the successors of the A350s and 787s start moving to the desert...
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 6795 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15983 times:
Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 13): At least they had finalized that 777 order and took delivery of aircraft. Considering how long it took to finalize certain orders in the past one could fear that they won't be able to get new widebodies in that class until the successors of the A350s and 787s start moving to the desert...
How long did it take them to decide on the 777s? 5 years at least. To be a manager at AI is certainly not the best reputation to have in a meeting with a headhunter!
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15316 times:
A.Netter Ojas mentioned in the Indian Aviation thread that the original plan was for AI to receive, in 3Q 2009, all remaining 77Ls (3) and 4 more 77Ws .
If this is true, and the 7 order cancellation is also true, then the last of the four 77Ws that were to be delivered in 3Q 2009 would already be in production.
It is possible that the original delivery schedule for AIs last 6 77Ws could have been such that their major components for those not have been fabricated yet.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15859 posts, RR: 64 Reply 17, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15169 times:
Well if AI is ready to take Boeing to court over the 787 delays, they might be playing hard-ball with Boeing to try and unilaterally breach their delivery contracts on any 777s already in production to save the deposits and progress payments.
One would think that AI would be hurting their case, however, by suing Boeing for late delivery of planes they might not be in a position to actually afford to take delivery of.
Mul77W From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 4 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 13876 times:
I'm not so sure what they'll achieve in taking Boeing to court, though cancelling the remaining 77W's on order isn't a bad idea at all given their circumstances.
AI started refurbishing their 747-400's with new overhead bins similar to the 777 and nose to tail AVOD in 2007. So far I've seen a photo of one 747 that's been refurbished, but have all of them been refurbished yet? Seems as though they've been taking their time given a relatively small fleet of 747's (taking into account the -400's that they own only). Once they've tidied up the rest of their 747's their long haul fleet is actually quite good and they'd be able to do without those extra 777's for a little longer.
Boeing747_600 From United States, joined Oct 1999, 1065 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 13334 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 17): One would think that AI would be hurting their case, however, by suing Boeing for late delivery of planes they might not be in a position to actually afford to take delivery of.
Well they could make the case that the improved load factors and purported lower operating costs of the 787s would result in better ROIs than with the 777s.
Quoting Babybus (Reply 16): Let us not forget that without the West consuming the rest of the world falls quickly into economic decline.
Then why dont you petition BA to not defer their A380 deliveries?
Ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12214 times:
AI has been waiting for the B787s to replace those old an d ugly A310s and even uglier A332s leased from Novair or something. Due to the delay in the deliveries, their HKG-KIX,NBO, DMM etc routes are suffering. These are routes that the A320/A321s cannot do comfortably nor do they warrant the B744 or the B772.
As for the B744s I can confirm 5 out of 6 have not been refurbished and neither has the 6th one. I mean all what they did was changed the seat cover and few minor changes. They have not installed AVOD in 5 of their 6 B744s for sure. Either ways those B744s are doing routes to Saudi Arabia exclusively so AI won't be bothering much.
As far as the B77Ws go, I guess they are talking as many B77Ws required for current operations and not for major expansion purposes. AI is going to take all of its B77L deliveries.
Why is that we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway?
Boeing747_600 From United States, joined Oct 1999, 1065 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11844 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 23): Very recent pictures (from June) on a.net showing AIs 744s at JFK and FRA are proof that
Are you sure that those were the dates the photos of the AI B744 at JFK were actually snapped and not the dates that they were posted on a.net? I dont think that AI has flown a B744 to JFK in quite a while. I know for a fact that they were doing a DEL-FRA-EWR routing with the B744. DOnt know if they still are.
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 90 Reply 27, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12480 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 26): You beat me by 2 mins! I was just goin to post that myself!
Sorry
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 26): I think FRA is (may not be for much longer) a terminator destination for AI's B744s. The onward legs to ORD and EWR are operated by the 77X.
I see the 777s more often in FRA than th 744, so I guess that's correct.
Ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 28, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12277 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 22): Are you sure?! I thought BOM-FRA and DEL-LHR were still operated with the B744.
They will be making those changes mid july or August onwards, forgot to point that out. The B744s will all be removed from USA routes and be put on JED,RUH routes. in August and September.
Infact AMD - FRA should have gone to B77L beginning July and then in August to B77W
[Edited 2009-07-04 13:51:04]
Why is that we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway?
Ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 29, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12226 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 24): I know for a fact that they were doing a DEL-FRA-EWR routing with the B744
They never did that routing. EWR was always originating in AMD/BOM. It was for years via CDG for a short time via LHR and now va FRA. AI did DEL-LHR-JFK and now they have non stops to both places.
And no aircrafts are based in FRA, they do complete rounds to the US and back, except AMD - FRA which is a terminator service.
[Edited 2009-07-04 13:56:51]
Why is that we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway?
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 32, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11571 times:
Quoting Ojas (Reply 21): As far as the B77Ws go, I guess they are talking as many B77Ws required for current operations
Do you have access to a reliable source to resolve the question of whether AI were originally planning to receive 3 more 77Ws or 4 more 77Ws by October?
I'm curious about whether AI can/will actually cancel an "already in-production" 77W.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
Ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11487 times:
Quoting WestWing (Reply 32): Do you have access to a reliable source to resolve the question of whether AI were originally planning to receive 3 more 77Ws or 4 more 77Ws by October?
I think it is 3 more and not 4 more. On our Indian aviation forum it is mentioned that they will have 8 B77Ws ( earlier it was planned for 9) and 8 LRs. I will however cross check whether it is 3 or 4.
Why is that we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway?
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 12 Reply 34, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11428 times:
Quoting Mham001 (Reply 31): Agreed. More hype than substance.
Funny, I don't recall it being "more hype than substance" not so long ago when the outcry from (mostly) American members on this forum was about the amount of oil India and China were using which drove up the price (despite of course it being a fraction of the US usage!). I equally don't recall it as such when US airlines were in a sudden rush to serve the two countries......were they all wrong?
Pellegrine From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1121 posts, RR: 1 Reply 37, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11249 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 34): Funny, I don't recall it being "more hype than substance" not so long ago when the outcry from (mostly) American members on this forum was about the amount of oil India and China were using which drove up the price (despite of course it being a fraction of the US usage!).
Well that was a factor...the rate of usage growth, although the BRICs can use as much as they please, it's their sovereign right. I'll maintain that in the 21st century the need for the US to use 1/4 the world's crude supply has come and gone.
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 34): I equally don't recall it as such when US airlines were in a sudden rush to serve the two countries......were they all wrong?
Were they all wrong? Yes, because they couldn't predict the global economy, and no, because they couldn't predict the global economy.
Quoting Ojas (Reply 21): AI is going to take all of its B77L deliveries.
Quoting Ojas (Reply 28): Infact AMD - FRA should have gone to B77L beginning July and then in August to B77W
So 1 77L will go on AMD-FRA, which routes are due for the other 2 77Ls?
Non-Farm Payroll = time to gain or lose 100+ pips on my P/L ehh...
Pellegrine From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1121 posts, RR: 1 Reply 38, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11233 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 36): There are several Air India 777 at the Paine Field in Seattle already painted and ready for their maiden flights to India. www.paine-field.com
Looks like:
1 77L Undetermined reg. and
1 77W VT-ALO
Non-Farm Payroll = time to gain or lose 100+ pips on my P/L ehh...
Boeing747_600 From United States, joined Oct 1999, 1065 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10592 times:
Quoting Ojas (Reply 29): except AMD - FRA which is a terminator service.
What is the logic behind a terminator AMD-FRA terminator flight?! Connectivity to AI's FRA-ORD and FRA-EWR flights? Wouldn't an AMD-DEL or AMD-BOM feeder accomplish this more efficiently?
Quoting Ojas (Reply 40): Nothing, they will beautify the BOM tarmac.
The way the IT 345s did?! Or were they ever formally delivered?
Quoting Mham001 (Reply 31): Quoting Babybus (Reply 16):
Hang on a minute, isn't India supposed to be the emerging market along with China? What rubbish we have to listen to.
Agreed. More hype than substance.
Now let's see if China can succeed in spending its way to domestic prosperity.
So do you think that Western Europe and/or the US can?!
This is the same ridiculous notion that any one country or continent on its own can stimulate a level of growth that makes the rest of the world bow and proclaim ""We're not worthy". This is not the mid 20th century. Just about everything in the economic sphere is inter-connected with multiple levels of detail and complexity. The commercial aviation industry in one arena where this is tellingly obvious. This may not please Lou Dobbs and his ilk, but its the reality of the early 21st century.
Gr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2373 posts, RR: 2 Reply 42, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9898 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 34): not so long ago when the outcry from (mostly) American members on this forum was about the amount of oil India and China were using which drove up the price (despite of course it being a fraction of the US usage!)
The reality is that a major factor behind the unrealistic rise in the oil prices last year was the speculative trading by US financial institutions....demand from India/China was just one of the lesser factors.....
PVG From China, joined Dec 2004, 638 posts, RR: 1 Reply 43, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9900 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 16): Let us not forget that without the West consuming the rest of the world falls quickly into economic decline
That's already happened and the "rest of the world" seems to be coming out in substantially better shape than the west. Maybe the people who save more and tax less have better ideas than the people who consume with borrowed money and expect someone else to provide them a lifetime social security blanket.
Ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 44, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9678 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 42): What is the logic behind a terminator AMD-FRA terminator flight?! Connectivity to AI's FRA-ORD and FRA-EWR flights? Wouldn't an AMD-DEL or AMD-BOM feeder accomplish this more efficiently?
connecting to FRA-EWR in particular and also to ORD flights. In future to YYZ as well. And mind you AMD-EWR sees full flights, and while the AMD-BOM-EU-EWR flights always remained full, this will be even more popular.
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 42): The way the IT 345s did?! Or were they ever formally delivered?
IT A345s were never delivered.
Why is that we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway?
Aviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 45, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8803 times:
Quoting Ojas (Reply 21): Either ways those B744s are doing routes to Saudi Arabia exclusively so AI won't be bothering much.
The most profitable sector for AI is Gulf and only this attitude of AI is diverting the passengers to alternate airline (EK, SV, QR, GF etc..)
Quoting PVG (Reply 43): That's already happened and the "rest of the world" seems to be coming out in substantially better shape than the west. Maybe the people who save more and tax less have better ideas than the people who consume with borrowed money and expect someone else to provide them a lifetime social security blanket.
I could not stop myself
Quoting Ojas (Reply 21): AI has been waiting for the B787s to replace those old an d ugly A310s and even uglier A332s
Dont break my heart....A310's are old, very old but not ugly. They served their purpose and was the bread and butter for AI for years. I flew them all, including the ones which were leased from CSA. The seats of the CSA ones were not good, particularly in J class.
for A332's probably you are referring to the interiors.
JerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 116 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8638 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 17): Well if AI is ready to take Boeing to court over the 787 delays, they might be playing hard-ball with Boeing to try and unilaterally breach their delivery contracts on any 777s already in production to save the deposits and progress payments.
One would think that AI would be hurting their case, however, by suing Boeing for late delivery of planes they might not be in a position to actually afford to take delivery of.
I think this nicely sets up an out of court settlement. AI forgives Boeing for not delivering 787s on time and Boeing forgives AI for not taking 777s as agreed
Deaphen From India, joined Jul 2005, 1379 posts, RR: 2 Reply 47, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8498 times:
Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 46): I think this nicely sets up an out of court settlement. AI forgives Boeing for not delivering 787s on time and Boeing forgives AI for not taking 777s as agreed
Legally speaking, those two transactions (the delivery of the 787's and the cancelled 777's) will be totally separate from each other.
I have financed planes and currently work on leasing them, etc, and each will be dealt with totally different departments with totally different contracts.
I see no connection between the two. That being said, the issue of AI getting delivery of the 787 is dependent on the fact whether the 787 ever flies or not in the next few years.
Regards
Nitin
I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
Jfk777 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 3353 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8234 times:
Air India should not be so pig headed, Boeing could also help its and Air India's cause by helping lease out these 777 for a few years. Qantas has an ancient fleet of 744's and the new CEO at QF seems mystified by the previous managements not making a case for 777's. The folks in Australia may like the 77W at recession prices.
Aerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 1579 posts, RR: 4 Reply 49, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7521 times:
Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 42): The reality is that a major factor behind the unrealistic rise in the oil prices last year was the speculative trading by US financial institutions....demand from India/China was just one of the lesser factors.....
Myth. Excess global credit (from everyone to sovereign welath funds to government pension plans, in both the west and the "East") required new wealth storage vehicles and shifted from the US. UK and other housing markets to commodities in 2006, resulting in the bursting of the housing bubble and the surge in oil prices alongside gold, oil, iron ore etc.
Back to Air India - so is this cancellation confirmed or simply specualtion? I was thinkingAir New Zealand might be keen to take up some of these birds but Idoubt they can find a reasonable market for their 744s right now and I believe they're working on an entirely new cabin product with something fairly radical in the works. Still, would be a good fit.
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 6795 posts, RR: 8 Reply 50, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7466 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 48): Qantas has an ancient fleet of 744's
Ancient? Even the oldest QF744 can fly at least five years longer if needed. And those which will be replaced will be followed by A380s. QF has 3 A380s and will receive more this year. There has been no word about a single 744 being retired because of that yet.
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 48): The folks in Australia may like the 77W at recession prices.
There have been enough decisions to the opposite. Why should they take a temporary subfleet? They dont need the extra lift anyway.
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2373 posts, RR: 2 Reply 51, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7130 times:
Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 49): Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 42):
The reality is that a major factor behind the unrealistic rise in the oil prices last year was the speculative trading by US financial institutions....demand from India/China was just one of the lesser factors.....
Myth. Excess global credit (from everyone to sovereign welath funds to government pension plans, in both the west and the "East") required new wealth storage vehicles and shifted from the US. UK and other housing markets to commodities in 2006, resulting in the bursting of the housing bubble and the surge in oil prices alongside gold, oil, iron ore etc.
Which is saying the same thing in different words.....
It would be nice to see AI expand into IAD and connect to UA's wide network here. I think the they should take 2 more 77W and use it to commence operation there.
Well today both flights AI 121 and 131 were 77L flights (from flightstats.com). is that normal??? That is why i grouped BOM-LHR and AMD-FRA with 77L and not 77W. So maybe a last minute substitution was made. Well from your post, i now know that AMD-FRA will go 77W in Aug.
They will get 3 more 77W's in october and then maybe cancel the last 7, so one of the 77W schedule needs to change. also is this cancellation report confirmed?? i haven't seen anything in the National papers??!!??
Ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 60, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6756 times:
Quoting Mk777 (Reply 59): is that normal??? That is why i grouped BOM-LHR and AMD-FRA with 77L and not 77W.
no. BOM - LHR is a scheduled B77W and have B77Ls on certain days. By Seeing the changes it can be possible that one of the B77W routes will be subbed with a B77L as they will have a couple of them spare.
Why is that we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway?
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 61, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6326 times:
Two completely separate things of note.
a. Reportedly the Union Budget (today) has no provisions for any Govt bailout of AI. So some press reports suggest that AI will have to seek financing to pay for new aircraft deliveries (the 2x77L + 3x77W). The reports seem to imply that this financing has not been lined up yet.
b. The Wikipedia entry for Air India was updated on the 4th July to say 9 77Ws have been cancelled. Yes, I know it is probably inaccurate, but I wonder where the number 9 came from - I couldn''t find any report (other than the one in the OP which says 7) on the 77W cancellations.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18403 posts, RR: 60 Reply 63, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5973 times:
Quoting WestWing (Reply 61): b. The Wikipedia entry for Air India was updated on the 4th July to say 9 77Ws have been cancelled. Yes, I know it is probably inaccurate, but I wonder where the number 9 came from - I couldn''t find any report (other than the one in the OP which says 7) on the 77W cancellations.
wiki is premature as Boeing has not reflected any cancellations yet.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 64, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5708 times:
Someone has since fixed the Wikipedia entry (i.e., "un-done" the edit about the 77W cancellations) with the terse but accurate comment "there is no proof".
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 63): wiki is premature as Boeing has not reflected any cancellations yet.
I was not surprised by the fact that someone made premature edits about the cancellations based on some unconfirmed news reports. It happens all the time in Wikipedia.
I just thought it odd that the person who made the edit stated nine cancellations instead of seven, so I was trying to ascertain if there was any other publicly accessible story about AIs 77W cancellations that had perhaps used the number nine.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 67, posted (4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4914 times:
When Boeing updated their orders and deliveries web page on 9th July there was no mention of any 777 cancellations. So nothing has been formalized yet.
On the ramp at PAE, there now appear to be four AI 777s - painted 77W, painted 77L, unpainted 77W, unpainted 77L. Of these four, only the painted 77W (VT-ALO) has flown.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 2 Reply 68, posted (4 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4859 times:
Quoting Mham001 (Reply 31): Quoting Babybus (Reply 16):
Hang on a minute, isn't India supposed to be the emerging market along with China? What rubbish we have to listen to.
Agreed. More hype than substance.
India and China are still slated to grow over 7% this year. Given the current world environment where other major emerging economies struggle, it is an impressive feat. India will not be a high-income country in my lifetime; but, I am confident that it will achieve a high-middle income status by the time I die. Unless of course, I die prematurely.
Insha allah u have a long life........... vaise on a lighter note my friend, kiramakoras in the natural world are known more for their labour and hardwork rather than lifespan.............
Jfk777 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 3353 posts, RR: 0 Reply 70, posted (4 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4734 times:
Air India should retire whatever OLD plane it needs to rid itself of and get those 777's. Even if they only fly to Singapore. AI needs to finish the re-fleet program. I don't believe the government of India can't afford them. While India isn't a rich country it is a country with lots of money in absolute terms.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7837 posts, RR: 63 Reply 71, posted (4 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4702 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting WINGS (Reply 10): That is correct PM. What is more worrying is that 81 of the 84 cancellations were for wide-body aircraft.
747 -1
767 - 5
777 - 2
787 - 73
Wow, at current list price we're talking about US$ 17-20 billion in cancellations
Quoting Babybus (Reply 16): Hang on a minute, isn't India supposed to be the emerging market along with China? What rubbish we have to listen to.
That's not a guarantee of civil aviation growth. Both are growing their airlines with public money and when the economy begin not to do so well you have to be ready for cuts and India decided to reduce capacity.
LeftWing From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 255 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4490 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 70): While India isn't a rich country it is a country with lots of money in absolute terms
...similar was quoted by Vujay Malaya...."India is poor while Indians are rich".....and now Indians dont want to travel on 20 yrs old A310 with out IFE...on AI...they want the best..
Jfk777 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 3353 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4240 times:
Quoting LeftWing (Reply 72): ...similar was quoted by Vujay Malaya...."India is poor while Indians are rich".....and now Indians dont want to travel on 20 yrs old A310 with out IFE...on AI...they want the best..
Isn't it funny how Kingfisher and Jet Airways are the ones causing Air India to order the 777 and 787's. Yes India does have too much capacity and the two private airlines have laesed out many of their new A330's, 777 and A345 but these airplanes are in great demand. Arik Air in Nigeria has great A340-500's thanks to Vijay Millaya great sense if style.
Quote: Air India's parent company National Aviation Co of India (Nacil) is receiving a $1.06 billion loan from JPMorgan Chase & Co to fund most of its purchase of 10 Boeing passenger aircraft.
The funds will be used to pay for 3 737-800s, 3 777-200s and 4 777-300s
Mk777 From United States, joined Oct 2006, 1125 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3691 times:
Quoting Aviationbuff (Reply 74): The funds will be used to pay for 3 737-800s, 3 777-200s and 4 777-300s
Ok, so the 3 B772 are VT-ALF/G/H. Isn't ALF already a part of the fleet?
Also, i am assuming the 4 77W are VT-ALO/P/Q/R, didn't ALO just join the fleet yesterday?
So, it seems that 9 total 77W will be in AI's fleet, does that mean the last 6 will be canceled or will they wait for another loan to purchase those as well?
Ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 76, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3769 times:
Quoting Mk777 (Reply 75): So, it seems that 9 total 77W will be in AI's fleet, does that mean the last 6 will be canceled or will they wait for another loan to purchase those as well?
So it seems the cancellation was just a rumour?
Does paying for 4 B77W mean that new 4 aircrafts would come? It could mean that one existing B77W is included into the 4 B77W payment list.
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WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 77, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3751 times:
Quoting Aviationbuff (Reply 74): The funds will be used to pay for 3 737-800s, 3 777-200s and 4 777-300s
If this statement is correct, it actually makes a lot of sense, because AI would receive three 77Ls and four 77Ws this year which is exactly the same as their original plans. In this case, if 77Ws are cancelled, then there would be six cancellations instead of seven, and it means that AI would not cancel a 77W that is already in production.
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WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 79, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3725 times:
Quoting Ojas (Reply 76): Does paying for 4 B77W mean that new 4 aircrafts would come? It could mean that one existing B77W is included into the 4 B77W payment list.
The previous 77W was delivered a year ago (11 July 2008). It had better be financed already.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
Quoting Dinesh Keskar of Boeing in the story at the link above: There have been no talks with Air India so far for cancellation or deferment for any aircraft. These are difficult times but no discussion on deferral as yet with Air India.
The article mentions that AI will receive five 777s in this fiscal year. They have received two so far this year 1x77L and 1x77W. It is not clear whether the intention of the statement was that they will receive five more 777s this year or a total of five. Five more would be consistent with the existing acquisition plan.
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Frigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 402 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2239 times:
I'm wondering why AI is so keen on cancellation instead of deferral. Pretty sure Boeing will subtract cancellation fees from their compensation claim on the 787 delays.
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Cricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2359 posts, RR: 4 Reply 85, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1985 times:
So, to take the HT and the Flight story together, AI doesn't know which 777's it is going to cancel - the 77L's or the 77W's. I am not sure of the current delivery status, but they can't cancel three planes that are in final assembly... so... And according to Praful Patel, India's CivAv Minister, who rightly says that AI needs the planes - pretty patchy statements backed up by inane journalism...
And I'm a journalist saying this.
I think its sure that AI will receive their last 2 77L's-VT-ALG/H
The last 6 77W's, however, i think are going to be canceled and since VT-ALO has already joined the fleet, 3 more remain to be delivered-VT-ALP/Q/R for a total of 9 instead of the original 15.
Thats what i gather from both the articles even though HT says 5 and flightglobal says 6 cancellations.
I think its sure that AI will receive their last 2 77L's-VT-ALG/H
The last 6 77W's, however, i think are going to be canceled and since VT-ALO has already joined the fleet, 3 more remain to be delivered-VT-ALP/Q/R for a total of 9 instead of the original 15.
Thats what i gather from both the articles even though HT says 5 and flightglobal says 6 cancellations.
I just spoke to the Editor of HT and pointed out the error to him.
As of today AI has one 77L and nine 77Ws on order. The Flightglobal article which was published today has not updated their numbers (they say 3 and 10 respectively).
Quoting Mk777 (Reply 86): I think its sure that AI will receive their last 2 77L's-VT-ALG/H
The last 6 77W's, however, i think are going to be canceled and since VT-ALO has already joined the fleet, 3 more remain to be delivered-VT-ALP/Q/R for a total of 9 instead of the original 15.
VT-ALG (-200LR) arrived in DEL on Wednesday July 29th. In photos/videos of PAE one 77L (ALH) and one 77W (probably ALP) can been seen outside in full livery, and another AI -300ER is apparently at the front of the assembly line inside building 40-24.
Six cancellations (all 777-300ERs) makes sense, because it means that AI will receive all aircraft that they were originally supposed this year (by the end of September).
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WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 89, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1485 times:
Here is an nteresting observation on the flow of information internally in AI,
The HT story quotes Arvind Jadhav speaking on Thursday (maybe earlier) as follows:
Quote:
The cancellation orders have already been issued by my engineering department.
A WSJ story Friday (today) quotes Jitendra Bhargava, Air India's executive director for corporate communications as saying on Friday in a phone interview:
Quote:
No decision on cancellation has been taken as yet.
{Edited to add: I notice that PTI filed a report about an hour back stating that that Dinesh Keskar met with Arvind Jadhav on Friday at AI headquarters to "discuss the issue"]
[Edited 2009-07-31 08:19:48]
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Jetstar From United States, joined May 2003, 1247 posts, RR: 4 Reply 90, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1284 times:
Quoting WestWing (Reply 88): VT-ALG (-200LR) arrived in DEL on Wednesday July 29th. In photos/videos of PAE one 77L (ALH) and one 77W (probably ALP) can been seen outside in full livery, and another AI -300ER is apparently at the front of the assembly line inside building 40-24.
I was just out in SEA over the weekend and took the Boeing plant tour. I saw an almost totally completed B-777 if the front position on the assembly line with a banner on it saying the 13th 777 for Air India. Unfortunately cameras are banned from the tour so I could not get a picture of it. I assume this is the airplane on the assembly line you are mentioning
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 91, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1208 times:
Quoting Jetstar (Reply 90): I was just out in SEA over the weekend and took the Boeing plant tour. I saw an almost totally completed B-777 if the front position on the assembly line with a banner on it saying the 13th 777 for Air India. Unfortunately cameras are banned from the tour so I could not get a picture of it. I assume this is the airplane on the assembly line you are mentioning
Hmmm. An AI 777 at the front position a few days back, I would expect ought to have been the 16th 777 for AI (not the 13th). So, if the banner did say 13th, then I am totally confused. Do you know whether it was a -300ER or -200LR? If there was an over-wing exit, then it was a -300ER.
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Mk777 From United States, joined Oct 2006, 1125 posts, RR: 0 Reply 92, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1164 times:
Quoting Jetstar (Reply 90): I was just out in SEA over the weekend and took the Boeing plant tour. I saw an almost totally completed B-777 if the front position on the assembly line with a banner on it saying the 13th 777 for Air India.
well 6 77L and 6 77W have been delivered for a total of 12. i guess the 13th 777 should be the 7th 77L (VT-ALG) which was delivered on July 29th as per westwing.
But you point out that the banner was on the a/c still on assembly line, so westwing is right, it should have read the 16th and is most probably a 300ER (VT-ALQ).
Jetstar From United States, joined May 2003, 1247 posts, RR: 4 Reply 94, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1084 times:
Quoting WestWing (Reply 91): Hmmm. An AI 777 at the front position a few days back, I would expect ought to have been the 16th 777 for AI (not the 13th). So, if the banner did say 13th, then I am totally confused. Do you know whether it was a -300ER or -200LR? If there was an over-wing exit, then it was a -300ER.
I could be wrong about the number, it was on the opposite side of the bay from where we were standing and the bay door was opened and the sun was shining on the banner,
It was hard to tell if there was an over wing exit, I was not specifically looking for that and the airplane was not painted. Again cameras are not allowed and I was taking in all of the 777 production area in the short time we were there.
If a –300ER is longer than a –200LR, I am almost sure it was a –300, because of its length.
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1518 posts, RR: 5 Reply 95, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 862 times:
Quoting Jetstar (Reply 94): If a –300ER is longer than a –200LR, I am almost sure it was a –300, because of its length.
Yes, the -300 series are noticeably longer than the -200, epecially if you have both to compare.
As Mk777 said, I too am inclined to believe you most likely saw the aircraft that is destined to registered as VT-ALQ, the 16th 777 for AI. As you said, the sunshine may have obscured the banner.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 93): Perhaps it really is the 13th and is on the line having interiors fitted or other work done while #14-16 are out on the flight line?
I think the 13th 777 for AI is line no 800 VT-ALG (first flight was 17th July), but you probably have better sources to confirm or refute this.
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Then why dont you petition BA to not defer their A380 deliveries?
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