Would love others' perspectives here on the claim that toxic fume events can cause passengers and crew to become ill. The documentarian seems somewhat credible as does the Australian pilot whose brief clip is played. A known issue for 40 years? And Boeing's statement was less than emphatic. I fly a lot and this of course makes me wonder about the bleed air supplying the cabin being contaminated due to faulty seals in the engine(s). Interesting that the story claims that people are effected differently depending upon their personal physiology, etc. And good to at least see the reference to the 787 not relying on bleed air which effectively resolves the issue.
(Found one other related post from May but it was locked. Apologies if I missed others.)
TCP Toxin In Cabin Air (by JQFlightie May 10 2009 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4408202&searchid=4408202&s=toxic+cabin+air#ID4408202
AA737-823 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 4022 posts, RR: 10 Reply 1, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4975 times:
This comes up every 10-18 months on slow news days.
Apparently, there's even a retired flight attendant activist that goes around flying, and then throws hissy fits and demands refunds if she gets on a plane and "smells" the contaminated air.
From a Boeing mechanic's perspective, this is probably a non-issue. Judging by the age of cabin crew lately (sorry, this is a cheap shot!), they certainly aren't dying prematurely!!
But more seriously, For the majority of flight, bleed air is taken off of the 8th stage (on a JT-8, and around that region for others), so it's pretty near the front of the engine, reducing the likelihood of fume ingestion. And, even if it does occur, it would be in such minute amounts that the entire prospect doesn't really bother me.
Now, if you had a catastrophic bearing failure, then I suspect you could end up with a bunch of fumes in the cabin; you'd also end up with a dead engine, which would probably concern you a lot more than an icky smell.
And CNN is going to put a certain twist on just about everything they report, so...... grains of salt for everyone.
For unto us a Child is born- unto us a Son is given!
AA737-823 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 4022 posts, RR: 10 Reply 2, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4931 times:
Okay, I'm running short on time, but as I go through the video, I'm going to follow up my above comments with some more.
First, I don't know whether this flight attendant is the same one I mentioned, but I suspect it is. And the pilot just sounds like someone trying to write a book and make a buck after retirement. Pilots are notoriously finicky people like that.
The woman being interviewed says that "Engine oil, hydraulic fluid, and other contaminants can enter the bleed air."
That's absolutely not true- the only contaminants in question are engine oil, and any pollution that is already existent in the air going into the engine. Hydraulic fluid would have no way of making it into the compressor section, and realistically, neither would fuel. Skydrol (which is truly nasty stuff, and something that WILL hurt you if you breathe the fumes) is pumped by a unit attached TO the engine accessory case... if the whole thing fell off, fluid would not really be able to enter the bleed system. It's like worrying about gasoline in your car somehow entering your kitchen coffee pot.
Yeah, I'm getting more frustrated as I continue into the video- the reporter asks a valid question, that being "If this has been going since the 60s, why haven't we heard more about it?"
Which is exactly the issue. A couple of isolated incidents does not constitute a widespread crisis. So some pilot became incapacitated in 1976. And now this stewardess has headaches.
Given the billions of people that have flown in jets since 1959...... this is really grasping at straws, so to speak.
"Oh, well, it's very confusing, and it affects people differently..."
Uh-huh.
And they speak of "fume events" as though they're some insider-vernacular that we talk about all the time. "Good afternoon, captain, how bad was your fume event today?"
Please.
The captain self-medicated with "emergency oxygen" inflight. That's probably the root of his health problems right there- WE KNOW how unhealthy pure oxygen is for you! DUH!
"They just let the passengers walk right off the airplane- I've seen it happen!"
Well, isn't that what airlines are supposed to do? I've also seen them let us walk off the airplane... at the end of every flight, in fact. Again, DUH.
"Most passengers would be SHOCKED to know that there's no warning system to let the pilots know that the air is contaminated." Yeah, just like they'd be SHOCKED to know that there's no warning system to let the pilots know that the toilets are dirty.
He's saying, "like carbon monoxide." Does that make any reasonable sense to anyone at all? CO is a product of combustion- how exactly are you gonna find CO in the air coming off of the compressor section? Good luck with that one.
Okay, I have to go work on Boeings now. Rest assured, I'll put a placard at every seat today: "Warning: Breathing may kill you."
For unto us a Child is born- unto us a Son is given!
OA260 From Greece, joined Nov 2006, 16711 posts, RR: 53 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4823 times:
Also seen these storys here .
Plane 'fumes' spark crew protests
Incidents allegedly involving contaminated air on 10 Belfast-bound flights have prompted a protest by cabin crew.
The BBC discovered noxious fumes leaked into cabins on the Flybe flights.
During a flight from Birmingham, two stewards collapsed after being overcome by fumes. Another flight was aborted after the crew had to use oxygen masks.
Jetterrosie From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4794 times:
The question of the BAe 146 aside, which looks like it could possibly be an issue with one aircraft type, this whole thing reminds me of a New Yorker telling me off for smoking on the sidewalk next to a 3 lane traffic jam which was clearly more hazardous and disgusting than my little cigarette. I know smoking is bad so just trying to make a point there with the real issue being that the aviation industry keeps getting beaten up for things like this that may or may not exist when there are far more hazardous issues on the ground that we seem to accept no questions asked.
Steveswa737 From United States, joined Jan 2002, 147 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4776 times:
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1): Judging by the age of cabin crew lately (sorry, this is a cheap shot!), they certainly aren't dying prematurely!!
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2): Pilots are notoriously finicky people like that.
Stereotype much?
I personally know a young, healthy crew member who got very sick from a "fume event" onboard. I believe this is more than a slow news day. This is a story that needs to be told and I'm glad its getting the attention it deserves.
Simpilot459 From United States, joined Sep 2005, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4074 times:
What about the fumes from the exhaust on the ramp? Or the cabin air in small aircraft heated by the exhaust, which is probably more likely to be contaminated than bleed air, and there are no filters or sensors on any of the GA planes I've flown.
I've also never gotten on a plane, train or bus that smelled like an open field. I'm not trying to say its something that should be ignored, but I just don't think it's as big a problem as they're making it look.
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2464 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4035 times:
As soon as someone comes up with a report on all the flight crews (young and old retired ones) who have dropped dead because of all the toxic air they breathed on all those flights, I will pay attention and probably stop flying. Until then, yup, slow news day and 100% pure Oscar Meyer!
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
FLY2HMO From United States, joined Jan 2004, 3827 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3877 times:
I don't think I've ever smelled fumes in an airliner, at least not to the point that I remember it being strong enough to be a concern or a nuisance. Heck the whole air in the cabin gets replaced every 10 mins or less depending on flow rates. Airplanes arguably have the cleanest air out of all confined spaces.
Quoting Allegro (Reply 6): ... and don't EVEN get me started on CNN and aviation ... banghead
Yeah really.
Quoting Simpilot459 (Reply 7): and there are no filters or sensors on any of the GA planes I've flown.
well what the heck are you flying? while no GA plane that I know of has filtered air (unless you count that coarse mesh to keep out the bugs and water as a filter of sorts), all the planes I've flown have had CO detectors. And they come standard with G1000 equipped planes.
Quoting Simpilot459 (Reply 7): but I just don't think it's as big a problem as they're making it look.
As always.
Happiness is just an illusion caused by the temporary absence of reality
Caspian27 From United States, joined Mar 2005, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3617 times:
Quoting Steveswa737 (Reply 5): I personally know a young, healthy crew member who got very sick from a "fume event" onboard. I believe this is more than a slow news day. This is a story that needs to be told and I'm glad its getting the attention it deserves.
I would venture to say that if they got sick because of a "fume event" that it had nothing to do with engine oil leaking into the bleed air, but everything to do with the pollution content of the air being pumped into the engine. I watched a tug get started today and belch dark smoke into the ramp area, sure enough a few moments later I could smell it in the cabin.
The ships hung in the sky in much the way that bricks don't
Simpilot459 From United States, joined Sep 2005, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3602 times:
Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 9):
well what the heck are you flying? while no GA plane that I know of has filtered air (unless you count that coarse mesh to keep out the bugs and water as a filter of sorts), all the planes I've flown have had CO detectors. And they come standard with G1000 equipped planes.
Not everyone gets to fly the G1000. I just started flying with a 430 equipped a/c a few weeks ago.
I've flown several different Pipers and Cessnas, and never seen any, and I just searched through my Warrior III manual and didn't see anything about CO detectors. If they have them, I've never seen them.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18405 posts, RR: 60 Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3340 times:
Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 11): I would venture to say that if they got sick because of a "fume event" that it had nothing to do with engine oil leaking into the bleed air, but everything to do with the pollution content of the air being pumped into the engine. I watched a tug get started today and belch dark smoke into the ramp area, sure enough a few moments later I could smell it in the cabin.
Exactly. Aircraft stink while boarding can be really bad, has made me feel nauseous a few times, but comes from ingesting polluted air from nearby ramp vehicles with poor emmissions systems.
A switch to more ethanol and electric ramp vehicles would eliminate this.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Steveswa737 From United States, joined Jan 2002, 147 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2660 times:
Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 11): I would venture to say that if they got sick because of a "fume event" that it had nothing to do with engine oil leaking into the bleed air, but everything to do with the pollution content of the air being pumped into the engine.
Normally I would agree since its very common, especially on the 1st flight of the day to smell fumes in the cabin on engine start up. This was something more serious though. He immediately began exhibiting serious health symptoms. If the fumes came from leaking engine oil and then sent through the bleed air into the cabin, this would explain his severe reaction.
Didn't the Queen have a few RAF BAe-146s in the Royal Flight Fleet?
Quoting Steveswa737 (Reply 5): This is a story that needs to be told and I'm glad its getting the attention it deserves.
Your glad what is getting told? This is a made up story. I have flown on airplanes for more than 40 years, and never experienced anything like what CNN or the BBC discribes. That forty years includes 22 as a crewmwmber on the KC-135.
Quoting Allegro (Reply 6): ... and don't EVEN get me started on CNN and aviation ..
Or the BBC.
Quoting Simpilot459 (Reply 7): What about the fumes from the exhaust on the ramp?
That is more likely to be the fumes you smell. Poorly maintaned vehicles, fuel spills, Hydraulic fluid spills, etc.
Quoting Simpilot459 (Reply 7): Or the cabin air in small aircraft heated by the exhaust, which is probably more likely to be contaminated than bleed air, and there are no filters or sensors on any of the GA planes I've flown.
All non-pressurized aircraft use some form of a heat exchanger for cabin heating. A simple heat exchanger can be as simple as a sealed can wrapped around an exhaust pipe with a blower of some type that sucks in fresh air. So, unless the aircraft has an exhaust leak (poor maintenance), you won't smell anything.
As for pressurized aircraft, I assure you, no fumes can come from the engines. Asz explained above, the bleed air comes off the compressure stages before the burner cans. Then the air is plumbed through the air cycle machinery (air conditioner), or ACM, which heats or cools it, and regulates the amount of air pressure sent into the cabin. The ACM does have spinning compressures that rotate on oiled bearings. If anything can be smelled, it would most likely be from these ACMs. This is air that is NONTOXIC, and any perticulets that you smell is in very small quanties, less than 1 part per billion. Humans can detect oders in this range.
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1544 posts, RR: 47 Reply 18, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1602 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16): As for pressurized aircraft, I assure you, no fumes can come from the engines. Asz explained above, the bleed air comes off the compressure stages before the burner cans.
Lubricants and deicing fluids frequently contaminate engine bleed air that is used amongst others for cabin pressurization. APUs may be worse than main engines though.
Bleedless cabin pressurization, using electrically driven compressors like the 787 might largely avoid the problems, but lubricants would still be present.
Flew on a couple NW Niners last week... a faint but distinct fumey scent coming through the vents, but it smelled good to me. Different than everything else I've been on lately. Smelled like what a jet should smell like. Have passed out or grown a beak on my forehead yet...
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 20, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1097 times:
Saw this line from the news article....
Quoting CNN.com,reply=News article: (CNN) -- The last time Terry Williams can remember being headache-free was in December. A chronic migraine has plagued her ever since. So have balance and vision problems, a tremor in her left arm, a prickly sensation in her feet and a loss of childhood memories.
I'm sorry, but I have a very hard time believing that. I think this woman probably had a pre-existing condition that she may have not known about. I think she is just out to make a quick and desperate buck since she's now out of work. Gotta love the American justice system!
Between a tickle in her throat, cough and headache, Williams thought she had the start of a common cold when she stepped off the flight in question. But she says the symptoms grew worse and included a nasal discharge she described as "neon green, the same color as antifreeze."
You have got to be kidding me..... This is absurd!
Again, she's just out to make a quick buck, me thinks....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Blackbird1331 From United States, joined Apr 2004, 1878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1085 times:
Just a few minutes ago Capt. Sullenberger said he could "smell' the birds ingested into the engines of flight 1594 that crashed into the Hudson river in a report on "60 Minutes" on CBS TV.
Could it be that clouds stink?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2684 posts, RR: 20 Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 998 times:
Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 9): I don't think I've ever smelled fumes in an airliner,
I have many times it's not unusual to smell them on engine startup/pushback. Also when deicing. Worst was when the cicadas were all over IAD and they would get sucked in and burned making the worst broccoli fart stink ever. I kept smelling it when I would go up to the cockpit between flights to chat. I though to myslef what is the captain's wife feeding him? This guy has serious GI issues. Later the FO mentioned something about the nasty cicada smell. I started laughing and they wanted to know what was so funny. I told them and they thought it was hillarious.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20): Quoting CNN.com,reply=News article:
The 'same color as antifreeze'
Between a tickle in her throat, cough and headache, Williams thought she had the start of a common cold when she stepped off the flight in question. But she says the symptoms grew worse and included a nasal discharge she described as "neon green, the same color as antifreeze."
You have got to be kidding me..... This is absurd!
Sounds like a pretty normal bacterial infection like sinusitis. Not some wierd reaction to mystery fumes.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18405 posts, RR: 60 Reply 25, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 990 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 24): Sounds like a pretty normal bacterial infection like sinusitis. Not some wierd reaction to mystery fumes.
Exactly. Some people think they would be invincible if not for some outside force making them sick. They can't accept that they are simply sick because they are sick. This is especially true with major diseases like cancer. Sometimes there is an external cause, but most of the time, it's just your body falling apart.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5621 posts, RR: 27 Reply 26, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 985 times:
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2): The woman being interviewed says that "Engine oil, hydraulic fluid, and other contaminants can enter the bleed air. That's absolutely not true- the only contaminants in question are engine oil, and any pollution that is already existent in the air going into the engine. Hydraulic fluid would have no way of making it into the compressor section, and realistically, neither would fuel. Skydrol (which is truly nasty stuff, and something that WILL hurt you if you breathe the fumes) is pumped by a unit attached TO the engine accessory case... if the whole thing fell off, fluid would not really be able to enter the bleed system. It's like worrying about gasoline in your car somehow entering your kitchen coffee pot.
Wrong. The hydraulic reservoirs are typically pressurized with bleed air so that the fluid being sent to the hydraulic pumps has pressure on it. It's usually in the 30-65psi range.
If the check valves fail or leak and fluid leaks back into the Environmental Control System, then you can get hydraulic fluid fumes in the cabin. While not common, it definitely happens and is a mess when it does since the ECS system has to be cleaned out and there are people who complain of irritation.
My job is to make it so your flight is not delayed. Come fly the friendly skies!
Steveswa737 From United States, joined Jan 2002, 147 posts, RR: 3 Reply 27, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 975 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16): I have flown on airplanes for more than 40 years, and never experienced anything like what CNN or the BBC discribes
Congratulations! Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
They are very close to developing a blood test that will detect biomarkers of tricresylphosphates (TCPs) which are used as an additive in some popular engine oils which will give conclusive evidence if someone has been exposed to neurotoxins. I guess we"ll let modern medicine decide.
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 28, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 869 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 24): Sounds like a pretty normal bacterial infection like sinusitis. Not some wierd reaction to mystery fumes.
That is what I originally thought when I read the article, but I didn't say anything about it because I am no doctor. I just had to blow the whistle on it. But I am glad you agree with me.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
KC135TopBoom From United States, joined Jan 2005, 7474 posts, RR: 51 Reply 29, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 703 times:
Quoting Steveswa737 (Reply 27): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
I have flown on airplanes for more than 40 years, and never experienced anything like what CNN or the BBC discribes
Congratulations! Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Jet airplanes have been flying passengers since the days of the Comet 1 in the early 1950s and the B-707 in 1957. Now all this BS comes up?
It does not exist. This has all the trappings of Ambulance chasing Lawyers all over it.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 479 posts, RR: 1 Reply 30, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 685 times:
Hmm. More than a couple times I've smelled fumes in the cabin while on the ground and into the beginning of the flight. Seems reasonable, as others have proposed, that this is due to general air pollution on the ramp, but would this persist past takeoff roll?
Nothing I'm terribly worried about, but I also would like to learn more about what I'm smelling. Is that unreasonable?
DocLightning From United States, joined Nov 2005, 6999 posts, RR: 43 Reply 31, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 680 times:
It's a constellation of symptoms that do not fit the known pattern of any disease known to mankind. She blames it on something that has never been shown to cause similar symptoms in the billions of humans who have experienced jet flight.
So this makes it a functional disease, or a set of symptoms that exist without a clear explanation.
Some functional diseases, such as migraine headaches, are well-known symptom causers. Other functional diseases, such as fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome are more nebulous and difficult to precisely define.
This sounds like a functional disease and an attempt by the patient to rationalize her symptoms. It's a very common reaction to having a functional disease. It also occasionally leads to nonsense like this winding up in the news.
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 32, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 679 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 30): ....but I also would like to learn more about what I'm smelling. Is that unreasonable?
Not an unreasonable request, I do not think. But when one exaggerates to the bone, like the FA did in the CNN article, it makes his/her story seem more and more hard to believe by the minute considering how the other folks in the plane did not report to have any severe reactions at all after the fact.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Rolfen From Lebanon, joined Jan 2006, 1474 posts, RR: 2 Reply 35, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 526 times:
It is not absurd. It is absurd to make fun of it, without any facts or knowledge on the topic. Engine bearings may leak oil in amounts that will go undetected, but that can contaminate cabin air.
I will rest my fingers until I see a serious study refuting or supporting the claims about cabin air toxicity that were made earlier.
Steveswa737 From United States, joined Jan 2002, 147 posts, RR: 3 Reply 36, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 438 times:
Quoting Rolfen (Reply 35): It is not absurd. It is absurd to make fun of it, without any facts or knowledge on the topic. Engine bearings may leak oil in amounts that will go undetected, but that can contaminate cabin air.
I will rest my fingers until I see a serious study refuting or supporting the claims about cabin air toxicity that were made earlier.
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You have got to be kidding me..... This is absurd! 
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