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PDX: $3.5M Proposed To Keep NRT Link Alive  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9930 times:

Hidden in an article on PDX's loss of Lufthansa comes word that Portland officials will vote on Wednesday on a deal to inject $3.5M in subsidies in order to keep Delta's Portland-Tokyo service viable for the winter months, in hopes that the flight will be able to regain profitability by next summer and that subsidies will no longer be needed. The way the article is worded, it can be infered that Delta will discontinue the service if the subsidies are voted down.

Seems like Delta's Portland-Tokyo flight has a murky future.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...ufthansa_to_end_portlandfrank.html


a.
92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

The Port of Portland giving DL money to keep service to Japan will only last for one year. The world economy will not turn around in a year. Mean while, DL will at least break even on the route. LH made the only choice they could, cut service that was lossing money.

It is not like PDX is a big US economic center that tattracts lots of business pax. PDX is something like the 25th largest market in the US.


User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

Portlan has a tough challenge with its proximity to LAX, SFO, SEA, and YVR. there are lots of connecting opportunities from the West Coast to Japan and all of Asia, + San Francisco and Seattle are a very short hop away...

User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2078 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9752 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The Port of Portland giving DL money to keep service to Japan will only last for one year. The world economy will not turn around in a year. Mean while, DL will at least break even on the route. LH made the only choice they could, cut service that was lossing money.

It is not like PDX is a big US economic center that tattracts lots of business pax. PDX is something like the 25th largest market in the US.

That's what I'm worried about. It will really be a sunk expense, IMO. The expected recovery for the economy will last multiple years and its hard to say if we've even entered the recovery phase. I'd argue we're still wallowing around in the depths on the way back.

These last two Portland-related announcements really show the difficulty in operating transoceanic flights from smaller metropolitan areas. Incentives have to be offered to entice airlines to enter the market but is such a service a sustainable proposition?

And if the economic impact of these flights were so great, wouldn't all cities be paying carriers to fly certain routes for them?

The market, in the end, plays itself out. That's what we're seeing right now.

If a market to Japan out of Tokyo exists and demand eventually rebounds the flight will warrant re-reinstatement on its own merit.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9757 times:

Portland has always been a sort of quandary for me. The airport can hardly be classified as a hub - while it has considerable intrastate and regional service, it barely has service to any key U.S. metropolitan areas beyond Denver and Chicago. Yet, PDX boasts several daily flights to Hawaii (something that even SAN does not), and it also has all this intercontinental service. Other U.S. West Coast gateways (SEA, SFO, LAX) have numerous domestic links to support long haul flights, but PDX ostensibly does not. So where do all the pax come from? The local area, which has but one professional sports franchise, or from the relatively few connecting flights available?


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25742 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9666 times:



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 3):
The market, in the end, plays itself out. That's what we're seeing right now.
If a market to Japan out of Tokyo exists and demand eventually rebounds the flight will warrant re-reinstatement on its own merit.

Absolutely that is the pure economic theory, however cities, airlines and people hang onto all types of dreams that make them do things such as financing service that cannot be naturally supported.

Sadly not enough decisions are based on rational financial measures which continue to contribute to all types of skewing of the market and industry.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9666 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 4):
which has but one professional sports franchise,

Actually there's 4. Blazers, Timbers (hi Alias1024!) , Beavers, and Winterhawks.

That aside, what do the companies that lobbied for this service in the first place have to say? Where's Nike in all of this? Intel? Yoshida? Azumano travel?

The other factor here is freight. When I worked there, we moved tons (no pun intended) daily. I'm still not convinced that switching to the 767 is a wise move when it comes to uplift.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9633 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Absolutely that is the pure economic theory, however cities, airlines and people hang onto all types of dreams that make them do things such as financing service that cannot be naturally supported.

Sadly not enough decisions are based on rational financial measures which continue to contribute to all types of skewing of the market and industry.

Very true and very relative with what appears to be going on at PDX. If I was a citizen of the city, I would much rather see money go to schools or something very useful in town. Not a flight to Japan.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17660 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9630 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The world economy will not turn around in a year.

And Japan has a particular habit of taking eons longer to turn around than the rest of the world... Where are all these unused NRT slots going to go if PDX is canceled as well?

Quoting Juventus (Reply 2):
Portlan has a tough challenge with its proximity to LAX, SFO, SEA, and YVR. there are lots of connecting opportunities from the West Coast to Japan and all of Asia, + San Francisco and Seattle are a very short hop away...

It's really the CVG/MEM/STL/PIT of the West Coast and AS' network unfortunately. It's sandwiched between a few much larger hubs with no where to go in terms of connectivity, particularly if the NRT link is cut.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9614 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Absolutely that is the pure economic theory,

Is it? International flights have some effect on the local economy, though it's pretty hard to quantify. If the effect is larger than the subsidy the government has to offer to keep it afloat, then the subsidy is arguably justifiable.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2468 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Could they not try 3x weekly instead of daily, or would the decrease in frequency kill the route's viability anyway?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
Where are all these unused NRT slots going to go if PDX is canceled as well?

EK to Dubai.  mischievous 



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13258 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9513 times:
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I was always amazed at the number of international fligths from PDX. To Euriope, LH blinked and DL should be able to sustain PDX-AMS. I wonder if DL did better to Europe, ironically, due to the trapped customers held by the NRT service.

But I agree with above posters, this should be an economic decision. Save the money for schools. Put that A332 into the shop to upgrade the engines to the PW4170A (so that it can handle SLC-NRT).  Wink

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Sadly not enough decisions are based on rational financial measures which continue to contribute to all types of skewing of the market and industry.

 checkmark 

The economy will not recover in a year.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
Where are all these unused NRT slots going to go if PDX is canceled as well?

Probably on a shorter ranged flight.

But the lack of slots at NRT is part of what is killing this flight. The follow through connections are limited when compared to some of the other Asian hubs. I wonder though if dropping to 3X or 4X weekly wouldn't be a better winter solution? Why the need for daily?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9406 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

The last three times I have been to PDX, all in 2009, it has been a ghost town. It reminds me of GEG circa-2002.

User currently onlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2933 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9386 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
But the lack of slots at NRT is part of what is killing this flight. The follow through connections are limited when compared to some of the other Asian hubs. I wonder though if dropping to 3X or 4X weekly wouldn't be a better winter solution? Why the need for daily?

Or would PDX-Asia be better served by KE to ICN? Obviously DL could code-share etc.

I wish PDX could sustain our limited intercontinental service, but I am not optimistic there is room for more than one flight to Europe (barely) and one to Asia.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7553 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9319 times:

It's not just the economy, this flight has done well until recently... I know several companies threatened to pull contracts when NW started service with the DC-10... then they put the A330 on it and it was golden, now Delta has put an aircraft that is just like the DC-10 in amenities....


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25742 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9305 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Is it? International flights have some effect on the local economy, though it's pretty hard to quantify. If the effect is larger than the subsidy the government has to offer to keep it afloat, then the subsidy is arguably justifiable.

You going to subsidize your local pizza parlor, or gas station also if they loose money? A loss making venture is a loss making venture. Where does it end?

From the airlines point of view, I also oppose such subsidies as I have done work at one and saw how such a subsidized route had negative effects on other parts of the network. In this case by keeping PDX running, Delta might lessen loads and revenues on its SEA, SFO, SLC, etc flights which could have seen additional spill demand. I'd rather have a few solid markets, then take the subsidy and have the others potential become anemic themselves.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13258 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9307 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 13):
Or would PDX-Asia be better served by KE to ICN? Obviously DL could code-share etc.

That would depend on the distribution of travel from PDX. For Intel, I assume Taipai and mainland China factories are their main destination. For them, ICN might be a better hub. But it wouldn't be stategic to DL and their NRT rights...

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
The last three times I have been to PDX, all in 2009, it has been a ghost town. It reminds me of GEG circa-2002.

Interesting. I'll have to ask my relatives who live up there. My last trip up there was last year and the airport was humming! (Well... by small airport standards. Quite comfy vs. my home airport.) Alas, Oregon's unemployment has been hard hit.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9252 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 14):
I know several companies threatened to pull contracts when NW started service with the DC-10... then they put the A330 on it and it was golden, now Delta has put an aircraft that is just like the DC-10 in amenities....

It's not as if the flight was doing amazing and Delta said, "Hey, look at this great performing route! Let's downgrade the aircraft!"

The slumping performance, in all likelihood, came first.



a.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9226 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
The last three times I have been to PDX, all in 2009, it has been a ghost town.

I can testify to that! I flew there on F9 during the weekend of May 8th, 2009, it was pretty much dead in PDX. I was like "Where the hell is everybody?!"

Not to mention, security was a breeze on the return to DEN!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25742 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9204 times:

Well PDX flights are down 16.8% year to date, while enplanements have seen a 14.7% drop and cargo a 25.8% decline. So things are far from rosy.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9193 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
But the lack of slots at NRT is part of what is killing this flight. The follow through connections are limited when compared to some of the other Asian hubs.

???

It used to be well connected to most (NW) destinations out of NRT.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 14):
I know several companies threatened to pull contracts when NW started service with the DC-10... then they put the A330 on it and it was golden, now Delta has put an aircraft that is just like the DC-10 in amenities....

Not quite. None of them much cared initially that it was a DC-10... It was only after the flight started making a daily habit out of being VERY delayed to to mechanicals that they started protesting. The interim fix was to keep a "hot spare" DC10 in PDX, and then PDX was one of the first to get the A332... We sorta cut in line...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5462 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8997 times:

Can someone please clarify for me: are on-going subsidies like this proposal in Portland permitted? Are there no limits or parameters on exactly what a city or state government (or airport) can do to "encourage" an airline to continue a route? I'm asking seriously here; I thought I remember reading once upon a time that local government entities are prohibited from "granting" -- or whatever term you want to use -- money or other deals to try to save service. Private corporation can, and do, but are there restrictions on non-private organizations?

Then I have to wonder if once this proposal is approved, what's to stop DL from soon seeking help with the AMS service? Or could LH come back right now to PDX and ask why THEY weren't offered the opportunity to accept a subsidy to keep FRA going? And, while we're at it, how about AS going before the PDX Board and suggesting their operation is seeing very healthy returns at PDX right now so perhaps THEY should get additional "breaks" (or whatever)...

Seems to me this could escalate into a rather big messy situation for Portland.

bb


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8997 times:

Transpac traffic is down for every carrier and Japan appears hard hit.

DOT data shows that PDX-NRT was a solid performer for NW as late as December - the latest month DOT data is available.

The 763ER is fully capable of carrying 50K pounds of cargo on a route the length of NRT-PDX even with a 75% LF - and it is doubtful the route is doing even that well given the softness across the Pacific.

I'd like to see the volume comparison between the 332 and 763ER but I wouldn't be surprised if DL's 763ERs have as much capacity given the 332s have a lower lobe crew rest facility and the 763ERs don't.

The real issue to me is the ability to quickly transfer cargo between other intra-Asian routes at NRT and PDX-NRT given the incompatible types of containers.

Any insight, NWAESC, as to destinations/origins for cargo on PDX-NRT (RT) historically and perhaps currently as well as how "transferrability" of containers between the 767s and other widebodies at NRT is going?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8967 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
A loss making venture is a loss making venture. Where does it end?

It's possible for a venture to lose money but still have a positive effect on the economy. Pizza parlors and gas stations generally won't. International flights might.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8953 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
inject $3.5M in subsidies in order to keep Delta's Portland-Tokyo service viable for the winter months,

How much is SLC and the state of Utah giving DL for SLC-NRT? Is this service any less viable in the overall DL/SkyTeam network?

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 4):
The local area, which has but one professional sports franchise

PDX has hung onto their NBA team, something SEA and YVR couldn't do!  biggrin 

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Delta might lessen loads and revenues on its SEA, SFO, SLC, etc flights which could have seen additional spill demand. I'd rather have a few solid markets, then take the subsidy and have the others potential become anemic themselves.

Corporate welfare can only work so long. No airport can or should along with state and local government give such an entitlement for very long if at all. How long will PIT have to give DL $$$ to run PIT-CDG?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
25 FrmrCAPCADET : Stated subsidies, as opposed to 'entitlements' which are open ended, may very well bring an all over gain to an airport or community. And it is not im
26 LambertMan : You make a point that I was wondering about earlier. It's clear that Portland has an ego with regard to being an "international city" and DL would mo
27 Fxramper : Why is this necessary with the flight from SEA and the new flight from SLC? Seems Tokyo market is becoming oversaturated; LAX SFO etc.
28 PITrules : PIT has yet to give $1 to DL, although they did waive landing fees for 2 years. What is going on with PIT-CDG is a revenue gaurantee arrangement. If
29 Burnsie28 : Just like that NRT-LAX, LAX-LAS, amongst other flights that they cut that are coming back are were already upgraded.
30 MAH4546 : It's still a subsidy. That is no different than most subsidies. Its a revenue guarantee. The way the PIT-CDG flight works is how 99.9% of government-
31 PSU.DTW.SCE : No. Originally NW was going to wait to start the route when they A330-200's were delivered but that wasn't going to occur until Sept/Oct. 2004. NW de
32 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : I actually hear the route is doing QUITE well. Loads moderate but HUGE yields.
33 Fanoftristars : I did a little spot checking... The few dates I checked, 21+ day advance, and the fares were around $1000-1200. Not too shabby if you're filling a 75
34 Richbpor : Throwing away money on business subsidies is the Oregon way; we had thrown billions of dollars to high tech, bio tech with very little return on subsi
35 Commavia : A large portion of the issues with the Portland-Tokyo flight is likely driven by the larger macroeconomic problems in Portland, and Oregon. The Oregon
36 Cospn : These are the same Tax wasters that outlawed self service gas to create jobs.. but if i were a normal airline paying fees to PDX so they can give my p
37 PITrules : I disagree; sub⋅si⋅dy: –noun, plural -dies. 1. a direct pecuniary aid furnished by a GOVERNMENT to a private industrial undertaking, a charit
38 MAH4546 : If you want to go by the Webster efinition, that's correct. By airline industry definitions, the flight is subsidized. No government actually "subsid
39 PITrules : I agree Delta never would have launched this flight if the revenue guarantee program was not offered, as without it the route may have seemed like an
40 PITrules : I just wish they were able to fill the cargo hold up with cargo. I believe the range of this 757 flight has very little cargo capability, if nothing
41 NWAESC : This is huge, and I again forgot to mention it.... It's been awhile for me, but we used to send/receive a lot from BKK, TPE & ICN, IIRC. When in seas
42 LACA773 : PDX is reminding me of SJC and how the NRT flight AA had, went away. Very similar situation there. With SFO being so close by and much more choice the
43 WorldTraveler : No airline, municipality, or business community WANTS to have to subsidize air transportation but they also CANNOT AFFORD to be left behind. Without P
44 Lightsaber : It still has those NW (now DL) connections. But 'well connected's' definition has changed over the years. NRT has been capped for too many years. Dur
45 Bobnwa : Burnsie, you stated once before that companies were looking at pulling their contracts with NWA because of the 767-300 service, yet you were unable t
46 MaverickM11 : That's their only option at this point but not very likely. What's also interesting is that this 767 also routes through GUM, which makes me wonder w
47 Nwaesc : Bob, What's your friend's take on all of this?
48 Cubsrule : Is government spending necessarily a waste of taxpayer funds?
49 Chrisair : For anyone to consider the Winterhawks, Beavers (who might not be around next year), and the Timbers (a huge joke of a team) professional teams, is c
50 Commavia : PDX is a little different than SJC, though. SJC is literally within 30 miles (air) of SFO. The closest nonstop Asian gateway to PDX is still well ove
51 MaverickM11 : I think the difference is in the Midwest it's more systemic--it's been in terminal decline, whereas Oregon the downturn is cyclical, more recent, and
52 Nwaesc : Then I'm crazy. They're paid to play, are they not? The Timbers bring in ~8K fans a game, and more for games against rivals like Seattle (sold out la
53 DL Widget Head : There is no source because it's invented fiction. It is the economy pure and simple. It has nothing or very, very little to do with the aircraft oper
54 Post contains links Chrisair : The timber industry (which is huge in Oregon for those who might not know) has been hurting for a while. Head to Vernonia, Banks, St. Helens and othe
55 Post contains links MAH4546 : Deal approved. http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/07/06/daily37.html Now, with Lufthansa exiting, they'll be allowed to create a similar
56 Alias1024 : I feel that the subsides make sense for Portland. If the city is to grow it's corporate business base, it will need convenient links to major cities a
57 Trvlr : Exactly. What a lot of people don't realize is that the endgame here is not necessarily the profitabilty of the route in a vacuum, but its contributi
58 NWAESC : Not really "fiction," per se. Just a misinterpretation. I was there. Yes, companies threatened to stop flying NW (passengers & cargo both), but it wa
59 Chrisair : Will it? When DL left PDX in 2001, it didn't severely hamper the city's ability to attract businesses. If a major corporation is willing to expand in
60 NWAESC : I read somewhere that even local veterans groups are on board with the MC going. Frankly, the area where the actual memorial is not very accessible,
61 DL Widget Head : Yeah, I got that but my "it's fiction" reply was in response to the implication that companies threatened to stop flying DL on the PDX-NRT route simp
62 Alias1024 : Who knows? Perhaps the collapse of the DL hub prevented other businesses from relocating to Portland. I doubt any company would have admitted as much
63 Slcdeltarumd11 : Does delta route any amount of passengers thru PDX on connections or is it purely O&D? Do all DL to PDX markets have a NRT flight? How are the loads c
64 NWAESC : 107=Pacific Wonderland. The former. Also some feed via QX & AS. When I was there, and handful or so from CO daily as well... ??? Decent.
65 PSU.DTW.SCE : Yes, NW/DL will route connections to NRT and HNL over PDX, with the connections from DTW, MSP, SLC, and ATL. In addition, AS and QX feed the PDX fligh
66 Ramprat74 : This has been a hot topic on talk radio. They are pretty much saying this is a waste of money. As soon as the 3.5 million runs out, Delta will pull th
67 PPVRA : The private sector can subsidize too. Product line cross-subsidization isn't rare.
68 NWAESC : Like Lars Larson type radio, or all over the dial? You know, as much as things change in this crazy world, it's nice to know somethings never change.
69 Viscount724 : I question how important direct air service is when it comes to attracting major foreign investment. Other incentives (e.g. cheap and possibly subsid
70 PITrules : Perhaps not rare in the sense a profitable airline might operate a loss making route to maintain a network as long as other profitable routes more th
71 Post contains links PITrules : "But the Portland pact with Delta points to a new trend in which airports are giving away money to simply retain airline routes rather than recruit ne
72 Trvlr : Yes, but look at where the North American headquarters and design centers of those auto companies are. LA, Chicago, New York or Michigan. They could
73 MAH4546 : The route would not exist without the subsidies. When calculating a cost benefit analysis (or whatever kind of analysis neccessary) of whether to ope
74 Lexy : Well, Nissan's North American HQ is here in Nashville and Hummer's could be on the way by the end of the year too. Toyota is in Northern Kentucky. Ye
75 Alias1024 : I agree that other incentives can be far more important. However, if two cities are very close in their offers, air service could be the tie breaker.
76 Chrisair : He's going to hop in his company's plane or call NetJets to have a charter waiting. You can be far more productive on a chartered jet than you can on
77 Brons2 : Yep. I was born and raised in Oregon and I so want to see PDX have meaningful international service (e.g. not a Q400 to YVR) but Oregon has a dim set
78 PITrules : Yes, I agree if the "revenue guarantee" were not in place, Delta would not have given this a second look. IMHO not until they are allowed to grab the
79 OP3000 : The 787 will hopefully make it a lot more viable for places like PDX to have transoceanic service. So in a couple of years this may not be such an ano
80 MasseyBrown : If an airline has a monopoly route that is contingently subsidized (PDX-NRT?) and a very competitive, perhaps money-losing route that isn't (SEA-NRT?)
81 EVA777SEA : That could be the case if SEA-NRT was not profitble for DL/NW, which it isn't. The flight, despite the economy was upgraded to a year round A333. The
82 Lexy : Not to jump in here, but if it makes it on its own and sustains itself without help....then no it isn't subsidized. But let's be honest here. With al
83 MAH4546 : Pittsburgh-Europe was the second largest U.S.-Europe market without non-stop service until recently. It had 307 PDEW to Europe, compared to 386 from
84 LambertMan : Mark, Are any of those numbers in/deflated due to service or a lack of service? Just curious...
85 Lexy : I'm talking about on the PIT end. Not the CDG end. DL/NW doesn't have flights feeding into PIT for this flight do they?? Perhaps I am wrong in some o
86 PITrules : I must admit I had some doubts as well when this flight was announced. I would have preferred a route to FRA or LHR. However, I just looked at the DL
87 MAH4546 : That would most likely be the case. Non-stop service would likely increase the numbers of the cities lacking non-stop service by at least 15-20%.
88 MasseyBrown : The actual profitability of SEA-NRT should be irrelevant to my question. Restated: In the interests of maximizing profits, what is to keep an airline
89 Briguy1974 : I have to agree with the ideas that a PDX-NRT flight can not stand on O&D traffic alone. AS/QX via code share gives theonly available feed to the flig
90 Pellegrine : If you formulated this question you probably know the answer already. They wouldn't know if DL is playing them unless the books were open to the Port
91 MasseyBrown : I don't. As you can tell, I'm skeptical; but these sorts of agreement may contain protective provisions that address skimming - or whatever it would
92 EVA777SEA : You pay and keep the flight or don't pay and loose the flight. I do not see what is complicated? If they were having issues with other flights than t
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