Nomadd22 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 782 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 72407 times:
It's not likely there'll ever be complete agreement on this incident. They'll take all the pieces and data they have, spread them out and look for a scenario that will account for the information they've gathered and the type and extent of damage to people and hardware.
The damage to the plane pieces and injuries to passengers compared to where they were seated will give them a fairly accurate picture of the impact circumstances.
With two sets of data on the ocean floor in a few weeks, I'd imagine there will be some discussion regarding making FDRs/CVRs a little more accesible. I never understood why they they couldn't feed a small memory device encased in foamed epoxy that would come loose from a damaged plane.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4535 posts, RR: 60 Reply 2, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 72301 times:
Let's put it this way, even if the CVR and FDR is found, some will just dismiss whatever the investigators conclude.
But, anyways, if they don't find it, it doesn't mean we'll never know what happened... however, it makes it extremely hard to pin down.
The pitot probes have so far caught almost everyone's attention. The conclusion from that is however, does not explain why the aircraft went down.
Engine rollback with unsuccessful recovery is a possibility. Excessive icing on the airfrace is another. Both can be explained by the ACARS message pointing to the pitot probes having problems. Both can explain why the aircraft went down as per the preliminary findings. What would be a total nightmare is both icing related engine failure and airframe icing (to the extent of ice accumulation on the wings despite wing anti ice). It needs further study, to make a more coherent picture.
We'll see how it goes... and pray the FDR and CVR will be found so that there'll be more factual basis to understanding what happened.
mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Kaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 232 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 72263 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 195) "Fourthly - as I've often said before - I think there is a strong case for Airbus to fit servos to their throttle levers."
So I take it you don't drive cars with cruise control, because the throttle pedal doesn't move as the engine computer increases power to maintain speed in a climb or decreases power in a descent. Nor does the pedal provide feedback when you touch the brake or clutch, and the auto-throttle disengages and power is retarded to idle. Most car drivers have learned how it works and it doesn't bother them.
XT6Wagon From United States, joined Feb 2007, 1814 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 71896 times:
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 3): So I take it you don't drive cars with cruise control, because the throttle pedal doesn't move as the engine computer increases power to maintain speed in a climb or decreases power in a descent. Nor does the pedal provide feedback when you touch the brake or clutch, and the auto-throttle disengages and power is retarded to idle. Most car drivers have learned how it works and it doesn't bother them.
There a good number of cars that have done exactly that. Pedal follows throttle and throttle follows pedal. Only the recent DBW throttlebodies have broken that trend as its cheaper to do a single servo and a single pedal assembly, than the traditional cables and separate cruise setup.
My point of view is that its very good to have the feedback of the throttle levers following actual throttle position, but that its not a must have for safety.
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 71721 times:
Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 1): I never understood why they they couldn't feed a small memory device encased in foamed epoxy that would come loose from a damaged plane.
Some aircraft do have alternate data recorders. The Swiss Air 111 MD-11 aircraft had one according to the TSB report - but the device was destroyed in the crash.
The Swiss Air aircraft was estimated to hit with in excess of 350G upon impact with the water.
The experiences of crash investigators over the years is that recorders must be extremely tough and encased in the aircraft to avoid being damaged upon impact. They are made to survive impact more than anything else on the aircraft.
Even now, occasionally recorders are damaged too badly to provide useful data occasionally in crashes.
Nomadd22 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 782 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 71626 times:
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 6): The Swiss Air aircraft was estimated to hit with in excess of 350G upon impact with the water.
The experiences of crash investigators over the years is that recorders must be extremely tough and encased in the aircraft to avoid being damaged upon impact. They are made to survive impact more than anything else on the aircraft.
Even now, occasionally recorders are damaged too badly to provide useful data occasionally in crashes.
That's another thing that confuses me. The military has electronics packages in artillery rounds and penetrating warheads than can survive 50,000Gs. For all the legendary toughness of those black boxes, they don't seem all that solid to me. Maybe they should talk to the people who package NASA's RTGs.
Vlada From Serbia, joined Aug 2005, 123 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 71451 times:
Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 1): I never understood why they they couldn't feed a small memory device encased in foamed epoxy that would come loose from a damaged plane.
Maybe a little off-topic, but how big are the datasets recorded by the FDR's and CVR's? A few Gigabytes of data? Or much more/less?
Also, is there a way for a solid-state device to be as protected in case of a crash as a conventional FDR/CVR is?
Speedbird128 From South Africa, joined Oct 2003, 791 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 71413 times:
Quoting Vlada (Reply 7): Also, is there a way for a solid-state device to be as protected in case of a crash as a conventional FDR/CVR is?
If my memory serves me correctly, the FDR in todays modern airliners are actually a DFDR or SSFDR, which is a solid state device... There are also solid state CVR's too...
I can't edit my post, but that 32Mb is total storage capacity, and the data is just pushed through (first in, first out) and is constantly overwritten... it can record about 24 hours of data...
Vlada From Serbia, joined Aug 2005, 123 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 71283 times:
Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 10): Ones I know about I think was 32Mb (or thereabouts)
Ok, thanks... 32 Mb for a CVR does not surprize me - it's actually half an hour of voice recording, isn't it? Ads up...
Regarding the FDR, I know "old" data are pushed out when it reaches it's max. capacity, but I didn't know it can record 24 hours of data. Seams a lot...
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2): We'll see how it goes... and pray the FDR and CVR will be found so that there'll be more factual basis to understanding what happened.
How conclusive data from an FDR actually are? Could any of the theories mentioned in these threads be rulled out with certainty, of course depending on the records found on the FDR from AF447 (if the FDR is found)? Is there a possibility to miss-interprete those data?
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 6022 posts, RR: 48 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 71092 times:
Question:
The French government has a stake in both Air France and Airbus. I am not trying to say any shenanigans are going on, but violating this kind of thing would cause a ruckus in the private sector. It's a matter of good practice to have someone independent, and I know that the BEA might be "independent", but I don't think that's enough and I'm not questioning that they may be very much independent, either.
Shouldn't someone else be conducting this investigation?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 70904 times:
Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 6): That's another thing that confuses me. The military has electronics packages in artillery rounds and penetrating warheads than can survive 50,000Gs. For all the legendary toughness of those black boxes, they don't seem all that solid to me. Maybe they should talk to the people who package NASA's RTGs.
This topic was discussed before, don't remember exactly the facts, but I do remember a very informed user who explain to all of us, in a technical language, about the fact of that devices surviving the 50.000G's, BUT, for only a millisecond or so, and that is not the final purpose of the recorders we are talking about here, we need a device capable of KEEP the information for a long time after the impact, and, IMHO, the last generation of recorders are state of art devices.... the vast majority of times, the chain of events for the accidents are much more clear due to the information retrieved from DFDR/CVR.
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5117 posts, RR: 55 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 70868 times:
Quoting Vlada (Reply 12): 32 Mb for a CVR does not surprize me - it's actually half an hour of voice recording, isn't it? Ads up...
32Mb could mean half an hour. It could also be much more. In ordinary fixed phone quality it would be more like one hour, while in GSM cell phone quality it would mean 4 or 5 hours. (On the other hand, in Compact Disc quality it would be like two minutes - not relevant).
Question is what was on AF447 which was built when floppy disks were still known. Today when we have cheap 8 and 16Gb USB sticks, and every child had an Ipod, capacity should not be a limitation at all.
I will not be surprised if there will soon be a request to upgrade all CVRs and FDRs to virtually unlimited capacity. There has been quite a few instances when capacity limitations made investigations harder or downgraded investigation quality seriously.
Quote: The captain had requested maintenance personnel at BWI to secure the CVR; however, this was not accomplished, and the recording only contained sounds and conversations made by airport maintenance personnel working on the airplane after the incident.
It was a B757 near Baltimore back in 2002, and the circumstaces could be somewhat similar to AF447. Only this time the crew managed to get the plane under control after falling 7,000 feet from FL370 to FL300, and then divert to a safe landing. And consequently there were two living crew members to report their experiences.
[Edited 2009-07-07 18:41:33]
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Nothing related with the capacity.... you can have unlimited capacity and still record zero information if you don't have connected the recorder..... unlimited capacity don't help if you can't recover the recorders either....( like in this sad case so far... )
Birdbrainz From United States, joined May 2005, 399 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 70488 times:
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 3): So I take it you don't drive cars with cruise control, because the throttle pedal doesn't move as the engine computer increases power to maintain speed in a climb or decreases power in a descent.
The throttle moves in every cruise control system I've used, up to an including cars built in 2007.
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 3):
Nor does the pedal provide feedback when you touch the brake or clutch, and the auto-throttle disengages and power is retarded to idle.
huh? All three pedals in most cars provide feedback.
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 3):
Most car drivers have learned how it works and it doesn't bother them.
There's a key difference here: The throttles are plainly visible in an aircraft.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 70269 times:
Newer CVR/FDR record to solid state chipsets. Older models used 1/4 in tape.
Both can be destroyed if the device is severly damaged.
The specifications call for 30 minutes of voice. Extending this time period has been discussed. In the vast majority of accidents, 30 minutes is more than enough. In some cases like the Swiss Air and the Air Transat at Lajes - 30 minutes eliminates vital portions of the cockpit discussions.
There is a cost involved in extending the time of voice recording, and the question about retrofitting. These things are expensive to buy and to replace.
There are also multiple levels of FDR in aircraft around the world. Some have only a few data tracks, and some have a lot. More is better, but again the question is how much data should be recorded.
I've never heard a serious consideration given to retrofitting existing aircraft with better, more data capable FDR/ CVR devices.
LTC8K6 From United States, joined Jun 2009, 37 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 69736 times:
I always envisioned a burst transmit capability, which would of course be too expensive. When certain limits are exceeded or certain conditions are met, the FDR and CVR would burst transmit a copy of their current data store off the aircraft. The idea would be that at the first sign of trouble, a copy of the data would be saved via the burst transmission.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 7157 posts, RR: 42 Reply 20, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 69620 times:
About the pitot probes, here's a leaked (but almost certainly genuine) Air France briefing on 18th. June, 2009. I'd better not offer any interpretations on my account, I'll just get flamed again. But it makes interesting reading:-
USAirways787 From United States, joined Jun 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 69484 times:
I have been debating for weeks now on posting on my theory, for just the sensitivity of the event, but I figured I'd give a shot. I read a post on here not to long ago, can't remember exactly where, but it talked about Micro bursts happening more and more frequently around the world. Would it be a possibility that with them flying through a thunderstorm they might have flown into a very strong micro burst causing a rapid loss of control? I don't know with all of their "evidence" towards the Pilot tubes, and messages being sent from the ACARS if this could be a cause and even remotely a scenario, but just a thought. I might have even ruled out my own theory. But just a shot. Possibility?
Flyboy2001 From Canada, joined May 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 69351 times:
What about the idea of multiple redundant data recorders in different locations on the aircraft? The main boxes receive the data from the aircraft and it's immediately transmitted to the backup recorders which could be housed in maybe three or four parts of the plane, allowing for a greater chance of data retrieval, should less than total wreckage be found. The technology should be cheap enough... I mean, if AF447 had backup a recorder in the vertical stabilizer... ?
Canoecarrier From United States, joined Feb 2004, 760 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 69332 times:
Quoting Vlada (Reply 12): How conclusive data from an FDR actually are? Could any of the theories mentioned in these threads be rulled out with certainty, of course depending on the records found on the FDR from AF447 (if the FDR is found)? Is there a possibility to miss-interprete those data?
Well there have been a lot of theories. Many thrown against the wall and someone hoped they would stick, but I think the investigation is like many others, a big jigsaw puzzle. Having the FDR and CVR would probably fill in a number of the blanks, but we do have information from crash debris, the ACARS messages, and forensic evidence from the bodies. It might be enough to identify what the picture is in the puzzle, but likely won't be enough to satisfy the numerous foil hat crowd that show up in these threads.
One of the reasons I keep coming back to this thread is I enjoy reading the sleuthing of people that have actual knowledge of aircraft systems and why this incident could possibly have happened. We don't always agree on the direction of the conversation but I appreciate that.
Another reason I come back is that I appreciate the posts of those outside of aviation. Myself I've been involved in aviation ops, aviation safety programs, but I've also been employed outside the industry and I appreciate the alternate view that those in the nuclear industry can provide to redundant systems and diversification of software.
Probably the only comment I've seen from Nav20 that I agree with is that no one has made the perfect machine. Sometimes it is ok to bring a fresh view to safety from outside the industry. That's why I was particularly interested in why pitot tube technology is not sonic or laser. Again, not saying that is what brought this plane down! Thanks again Zeke, Pinero, Mandella, and others for the mostly interesting dialog.
Theredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 1174 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 69226 times:
Forgive me if I add some wacky BUT POSSIBLE things that may have happened.
1.- Failure of deicing equipment and rapid buildup of ice on wing surfaces, the Aircraft losses lift and there is a rapid fall, followed by a failed attempt of pulling off and hitting the ocean in flat attitude.
2.- How about an error in moving the fuel or in changing the fuel flow from one tanks too others and doing something wrong, then loosing both engines due to fuel starvation (air transat anyone?)
3.- A structural or engine failure due to bad MX that caused a cascade of events that could not be fixed by the crew.
Please I know we are at thread 20 and we don't need any more wild speculation but I grasp that there are some weird things here...like:
They fell for a long time and no signs of emergency have been found (life vests), crew seats taken. No comms picked up by aircraft in the area. The ACARS signals and MX messages that reveal that SOMETHING happened in 4 minutes. What kind of readings the crew had since they did not divert away from bad weather.
Giopan1975 From Greece, joined Jun 2009, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 68950 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20): About the pitot probes, here's a leaked (but almost certainly genuine) Air France briefing on 18th. June, 2009. I'd better not offer any interpretations on my account, I'll just get flamed again. But it makes interesting reading:-
This document tells me that AF was indeed a lot concerned about these incidents of faulty air readings a lot of months ago and that, what a coincidence!!!!!, they were planning to start the modifications by June 1st. Had they believed that temporary faulty airspeed readings ALONE posed a substantial threat to flight safety, I believe they would have acted more drastically. But even in that case they would have had to wait for Airbus and Thales. Apparently, and as any rationally thinking aviation proffesional would agree to, this kind of incidents ALONE were easily dealt with by crews in the past and were not supposed to hold any immediate threat to the safety of the regarding flights. Nevertheless, AF was alarmed and wanted to overcome this situation without much delay.
What is very very impressive according to this document is that AF majority of incidents started to occur in 2008 and on, although AF Airbuses had been carrying "unreliable" tubes since 2001. This could ring a bell that improper maintainance of the tubes had been carried out by AF all through these years.
Based on past incidents, is it possible for pitot tube icing immediately followed by a faulty operation of ADIRUs (Qantas) to have occured to AF447?
26 AirlineCritic: One of the questions related to all of the above theories is whether they match the little evidence we have, such as the ACARS messages. You would ex
27 Slinky09: Indeed, between 2001 when the Thales ...AA tubes were fitted and May 2008 no incidents of temporary loss of speed indications occur. What changed is
28 NAV20: My guess is you've got it dead right there, Giopan1975. Up to then, some pilots had got a shock and maybe a scare, but they'd coped. Human nature wou
29 Racko: So who, in your opinion, should investigate aircraft accidents? Who should have investigated GOL 1907? American Aircraft owned by a Brazilian Operato
30 ComeAndGo: There's not only pitot tube failures but also other unexplained failures. The investigators don't know why the TCAS would fail and one IR unit. There
31 RFields5421: We don't know that and will not know if it is true until the CVR is found. We do know that some other aircraft in the area near the time AF447 went d
32 RFields5421: So far we have a problem similar to what the TSB had with the Swiss Air crash. In that incident, the CVR and FDR quit recording data approx 5 to 6 mi
33 Nomadd22: A millisecond for penetrating warheads, but guided and nuclear artillery rounds experience around 7500Gs and stay operational for relatively long per
34 JONukl: This effect had me thinking yesterday and I made a post that was obviously lost because it fell between 20 and 21 of this thread. Assume that 1. Pito
35 RFields5421: It is a possiblity - but is it worthwile - the effort and the costs? The FAA in 2005 said it was going to require new CVR/FDR units with more capabil
36 ULMFlyer: Why I'd be interested to know (and I'm sure eventually we will) is: 1) Was Thales AA probes an option for any Boeing model and if so, have any issues
37 AverageUser: When the controller units are free to outvote one another, signal internal faults, and act even as a standalone controller in turns, and are dissimil
38 Theredbaron: I forgot this was discussed way back, I stand corrected. Thanks. My thoughts exactly. Best regards TRB
39 Weizenjaeger: Software? But as JONukl said, no mention in the Interim Report? http://www.wired.com/software/coolapps/news/2005/11/69355
40 Khobar: And the Brazilians have blamed the American pilots. What a surprise. How can the crew be unaware that the plane stalled? Are there gentle stalls and
41 RFields5421: The way I read the detailed posts about the messages on these threads we do not know the cabin depressurized. The only thing the ACARS message said w
42 Khobar: I understand, but my question was to the 6000fpm comment. What would be the "typical" descent rate for an airliner at that altitude for sudden depres
43 JONukl: First I would like to answer on the second statement on OPS replacements. These occur from time to time. See the following collection of older exampl
44 Delta2058: This thread has provided me with a great learning opportunity and prompted me to join anet after years of lurking. Thanks to the knowledgable posters.
45 Spacecadet: Yes, but don't make the mistake of thinking things were going wrong linearly in those 4 minutes. The interim accident report makes it clear that the
46 AverageUser: The sampling rate of the signal from a transducer and the clock frequency of the processing computer do not have to be linked in any way. The only re
47 UALWN: I believe you meant that "any signals going faster than 1/2 * sampling freq. be filtered from the sample."
48 Slinky09: This has been discussed repeatedly, earlier analysis suggests the aircraft was outside of what might normally be known as a dnager zone, but qualifie
49 PPVRA: Maybe the US? Japan? Switzerland? Embraer and GOL are independent companies not affiliated with the government. The government does not own them. As
50 AverageUser: That's right, my bad -- once again I wrote ahead of myself.
51 PPVRA: That's my point. Independence and impartiality are important. Any potential conflict of interest should be avoided.
52 Pilotaydin: I would like to share a small story about something i experienced in the sim a while back, as a demo from my instructor towards the pros and cons of f
53 RFields5421: Let's look back on another accident which unfolded for well over a half-hour before the plane made its final plunge into the sea. Swiss Air 111. Now
54 JONukl: Thank you for that link to a very interesting paper. However, I try to be factual and my statement is based on the following: The ATSB QF-72 report I
55 AverageUser: The meaning of "sampling" in this digital FDR context is potentially confusing. The analog signals from the transducers have already been sampled whe
56 Racko: A government doesn't have to own a company to be a stakeholder, especially not in a flagship industry like aerospace where not only employment is hig
57 Movingtin: nope, You have to remember that these messages are only for MTC planning. they are not a real time "live" recorder. These messages let a down line st
58 AVLNative: I think that I've read most of these 21 threads but have not seen this mentioned. Apologies if this is old news... From the Airbus site - http://www.a
59 PPVRA: Canada? If we consider every slightest threat of bias, we'd be paralyzed with fear. We only need to minimize it by targeting material threats. Having
60 Prebennorholm: Not so. On this B757 at Baltimore the CVR was running - in endless loop. But since it wasn't secured, when the captain requested it, then the interes
61 Spacecadet: Nobody's going to pay for that. Definitely not as a retrofit, and probably not even on a new airplane, unless it's made mandatory. But it probably wo
62 StasisLAX: Which is why it should be installed under government regulation - that why, the manufacturers and airlines have no choice in the matter.
63 Prebennorholm: Absolutely agree! But the reader/writer should be outside the box. That's right. But a tiny little memory chip with the weight of a fraction of one g
64 Gonzalo: Agreed. With all due respect to all of you who are talking about new recorder systems, new data transmission devices, additional recorders, and every
65 RFields5421: Just a point - but a substantial number of crashes at sea/ water involve fire - sometime for substantial periods of time and most floating debris is
66 RFields5421: I certainly agree. I tried to make the point earlier. There is a lot of talk on this thread about throwing tens, maybe millions of dollars at what is
67 Canoecarrier: As you say, just about any country would have a "potential" conflict of interest, but the parties mentioned above seem more than capable to investiga
68 Gonzalo: Yes, but....who pays for the additional wiring and new connections to your multiple memory devices ? That's not so simple like you are thinking, and
69 Canoecarrier: With advancements in flash memory storage I don't see any reason why this couldn't be accomplished. I believe it has been mentioned here before that
70 Canoecarrier: Do you really think this would cost that much to add on an existing production line? I doubt it. We aren't talking multiple FDR/CVR only multiple sto
71 Weizenjaeger: Agreed. Isn't "polled" the proper term in English?
72 Bravo1six: There's a little company up here called Bombardier. You may have heard of them ; ) If there is a bias in investigations (and I'm not convinced there
73 Gonzalo: Mmmm...let's see, do you really think any airline in the world is prone to pay for all the extra wiring ? That must be done for a qualified engineer,
74 VirginFlyer: Without wanting to continue the off-topic diversion too far, some time ago it was reported that the Boeing 787 would be using an integrated CVR/FDR (o
75 AverageUser: A scheme already in use with the E170 (and probably other E-series as well): Embraer 170 aircraft are equipped with two digital voice data recorders
76 Movingtin: well said! really!, How is the data going to get to this device? Where will they be mounted?how will they be mounted? will the data transfer interfer
77 JONukl: Some computer lingo normally used in my field: - Polling means an activ sending of a "request for data" signal to the device in question. (It's somew
78 Mandala499: The chances of misinterpretation is quite small, and rare, but it does/can happen. Failure of deicing would be detected by the CMC (except for interm
79 AverageUser: Not really, if and when your 1-bit recorded data (like a fault/no fault signal) consists only of a long train of 1's or 0's, it can be replaced econo
80 Khobar: I'm curious - you were falling out of the sky in a nose-up attitude and had no way to changing that. What was your forward velocity - none, some, a w
81 Mandala499: A little caution on the "as quickly as possible". I've only "been through it" in a 732 sim... It was nowhere near the real thing but then the sim's m
82 JONukl: I'm not shure if you understand how computers store data on a memory unit, like the solid state device usen in the FDR. This is rather different from
83 PPVRA: I mean in this case, with AF 447. It's a French-built airliner and a French airline. It doesn't have to be a country with no aviation manufacturing i
84 Baroque: Ah good to be back in the mid 1950s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_data_recorder The first prototype coupled FDR/CVR designed with civilian air
85 Khobar: Thanks for the info. Sounds like a good simulation, but it's more to test/simulate procedure than reality - the simulator can only do so much for so
86 VirginFlyer: Personally, I don't think the fact that the aircraft arrived at the water in a level attitude with a vertical velocity component can tell us too much
87 Khobar: Although related, the issue of whether the aircraft was under control at the time of impact is a different problem than what I'm asking about, which
88 Pihero: The phugoid assumes two things : unconscious pilots and dead or idling engines, plus another postulate : the A330 is longitudinally unstable. Another
89 Pihero: Hello, Pilotaydin. That's about the same response we got out of the sim : it's for procedures and doesn't go into the full characteristics of the air
90 JONukl: I have an incident report in my files that states: "On October 19, 2002, about 2000 eastern daylight time (EDT) [or 0000 coordinated universal time (
91 Movingtin: Is that an "approved"procedure, per the QRH?
92 Pihero: Things are very quiet on the subject... To-morrow is the end of the pinger search and all the naval assets will be changing into sonar search of the w
93 Prebennorholm: Well, what I didn't know yesterday, the trend has already started. See VirginFlyer's reply here: The new Embraer E-jets went the same way. Combining
94 Khobar: Thanks! I've read this: http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=1420 I'm specifically interested in G forces, difficulty in physical
95 VirginFlyer: Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well - I wasn't suggesting the aircraft entered a phugoid oscillation of increasing amplitude from straight and l
96 Canoecarrier: Who says it may not be as a result of this incident? We changed the design of the solid rocket boosters on the shuttle as a result of an accident, wh
97 Prebennorholm: I see your point, but those two scenarioes are not 100% identical. The Shuttle was grounded after a design fault on the SRBs got known, and it was al
98 Khobar: It may not be a perfectly safe plane. Although I thought stall recovery was required for certification, it's possible AF447 has revealed a failure mo
99 NAV20: Thanks Mandala499, interesting. I can say for a fact that 'pitot heads' (i.e. airspeed tube and ambient pressure tube combined in the one location) w
100 Canoecarrier: I would fly on an A330 tomorrow. I'm not saying the plane isn't safe, I'm saying how can we make it "perfectly" safe. Which unfortunately it isn't, a
101 Astuteman: Sadly there will never be a "perfectly" safe plane. There will always be a figure representing the "probability of failure", and the drive throughout
102 Giopan1975: Great - lets do it! I would be the last one to post some theory as I am not technically qualified and more of an armchair aviation enthusiast but I h
103 Baroque: There is a hopeful precedent on the side scan search. Not that far away from where the A330 must be, the wreck of the I-52 submarine was found in a d
104 Burkhard: I'm still still wondering why modern communication technology isn't used enough to increase safety just for satellite bandwidth costs. The aircraft wa
105 Pihero: You fell right into it again ! But for once, Mandala's memory is at fault (old age and creeping senility, perhaps ) Boeing started originally with th
106 FCA767: Idea: If the Black Box isn't found now...and the signal has gone...Do you think we could have Tourist Divers Searching...if they all knew the area...s
107 Mandala499: NAV20, I have to correct my previous statement. Boeing 777 also use the pitot on probes and static on flush ports like the Airbus FBW. This differs fr
108 NAV20: Thanks for a compehensive answer, Pihero. Clesr up the point. In view of that, though, please forgive me for not entering your 'ideas competition' - g
109 JONukl: There was a crach of an A330 during testing. See "1994 A330 test flight crash". Another horrible crash occured during testing after end of a lease of
110 Kiwiandrew: I just tried the link and it comes up as a broken link - could you please recheck it when you have a moment ? thanks
111 Burkhard: At 5000m depth? The last that we want to have would be the massive rescue effects for all the divers who want to do that....
112 JONukl: In the very schematic drawings I have seen, it looks like the ADM is an integral part of the ADIRU. In case the ADM:s are separate and located near t
113 JONukl: I tested the posted link and it does not work when I click on it, however, here is the link again http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2008/d-la081127e/pdf/d-l
114 AverageUser: I think I have some general idea of how computers work and store data, back in the early 1980's I designed an instumentation add-on card for the then
115 JONukl: I guess that is the reason for using discrete "sampling" times or time intervals (windows) and rejecting anything inbetween - but if you have a bette
116 LTBEWR: When it comes to improving the recorders technology, remember that with any aircraft there is a tendancy to want to wait some time before a new tech i
117 AVLNative: That works - the original included a period at the end
118 Khobar: Thank you. I'll have to do some more research. I've read a preliminary report on the A320 (or it might have been an account) that talked about the an
119 Baroque: It is the reconstruction I am thinking about. They both ended up in pieces. While the definitive cause of the Comet awaited the tank tests, they got
120 Gonzalo: Let's hope you're right. The 787 ( and the regional jets mentioned above ) improvements are probably pointing to a tendency in that direction. Is pre
121 Pylon101: Well. Still is very sad that after so much efforts spent black boxes were not found. Things happen. We should be grateful to all those men and women w
122 FCA767: Ohhhh I see...so not those deep sea divers with them Metal Helmet things then? Hope they do find it
123 Mandala499: For which one? The Airbus FBW? All the ADIRUs take in data through the ADMs. The only plumbing down to the end user unit is the standby pitot and sta
124 Khobar: Your point is well taken, but if you read more into it, you'll find there were definite clues that the Comet plane broke up in-flight. Paint and upho
125 JONukl: Thank you very much for the information and diagrams. My question arose from a schematic diagram of the ADIRU on a 330 (VH-QPA) found in the accident
126 Affirmative: After years of lurking around these forums I had to join after reading this thread.. I've read it since the start (I remember the first 5-6 additions
127 JONukl: I have been reading the A330-340 Flight Crew Training manual. When it comes to ADR1+2+3 failures the following is written: "Dual IRS or ADR failures
128 Pihero: The Case of the Cruise Crew Task attributions are generally well defined in a modern flight-deck: One pilot flies and communicates, the other manages
129 Zeke: They are close to the actual sensor inside the fuselage skin, they basically do an analogue to digital conversion of the sensor data and send it to t
130 JFernandez: " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ww0...81MmY So, those pilots did a great job and solved the following faults: - ADR 1 - CAT 3 DUAL -
131 Pihero: As I said earlier, this demo by Pilotaydin's instructor is just "simulator phantasy" as its program only reflects a finite set of "situations" for cr
132 Zeke: No, they had 2 faults, ADR 1 and 2, the other systems are still okay, the just need valid ADR data to work. As to what happened to AF447, I have said
133 Pihero: Not quite, Zeke : " Everything returned to normal except for the computer logic controlling the plane. (We were in alternate law for the rest of the
134 JFernandez: Understood - so the sim not leaving Normal Law is just some fun test, not something that could otherwise happen? Aha. Thanks. In watching all of thes
135 Spacecadet: The tail has its own forward momentum. As the fuselage and wings hit the water and come to a near-immediate stop, the tail will want to continue movi
136 Weizenjaeger: Are you just making this up as you go along? WWII German U-Boats cruised at 800 feet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_VII_submarine Modern a
137 Weizenjaeger: I can't even read my own URLs. Make that 1500 feet, not meters. But those manned submersibles can five 6000 meters.
138 VirginFlyer: Interesting observation... Assuming the problems began at the same time as the crew changeover was occurring, perhaps with one pilot at his seat and
139 AirlineCritic: Intriguing! Here's a new line of thought: they know that the worst weather is over, the captain is about to leave for his rest, a first officer comes
140 Pihero: Remember I said : IMO, the hand over had been done. Both copilots are in the flight deck. The captain is preparing for rest. That's unrealistic : Dif
141 Sniffmom: The number of bodies found has been adjusted downwards to 50 again. That's really sad - one less family that will get theirs back. Apparantly 43 have
142 Giopan1975: Could this come to confirm BEA's suggestion that the plane came down in one (large?) piece. This could actually mean a lot of progress in the investi
143 Alhena: The report is about the remains that have been found isolated at the end of the rescue operation. These have been matched by DNA analysis with one of
144 2175301: Actually, from a practical standpoint NAV20 is correct. There are only 3 Seawolf submarines; and only 2 of those are attack submarines (although the
145 Logos: What made the Alfa (that's the spelling I've always seen for whatever reason) particularly well suited for deep diving, though, was their titanium hu
146 Sniffmom: Thanks for sorting out the automatic translation to clariy the text.
147 Baroque: Welcome to a.net. I think your appraisal of the contributors is widely agreed. In order, well possibly and not really. I can see this turning into a
148 Khobar: Indeed - momentum will carry the tail forward - in this case into the rest of the aircraft debris field (if the aircraft did come down in a straight
149 JONukl: My feeling is that there must be at least one "real" simulator, may be operated by the manufacturer of A330. Could it not be used to try to really em
150 Zeke: They had two unreliable airspeed events in the one flight, after the first event, the NTSB said the aircraft returned to normal law. "After entering
151 Astuteman: Although I'm not sure why, because in operational terms there have been, and are, cheaper SSN's that will outperform either of them where it actually
152 Boacvc10: Regarding recent announcements of Phase II for the "search of AF447", what does Phase II include ?
153 ComeAndGo: They concentrate on finding the wreckage rather then searching for the pingers of the the FDR and CVR. . . . and AF has had 9 cases with unreliable a
154 WingedMigrator: This question doesn't matter: they've had both manned and unmanned vehicles on-site since about 15 June, capable of reaching depths of 6000 meters. T
155 Pihero: Thanks, Zeke. Owe you one. Two, in fact as I couldn't find the NTSB report on the incident. Cheers.
156 Zeke: From what I have heard, no Airbus operator including AF has ever has the same sequence of ACARS messages as what was received from AF447. They all ha
157 JONukl: You may flogg me a lot for the following, but I think it is very important. In my own field "nuclear reactor safety" what is said by here Zeke is sim
158 Huxrules: Hey guys- Hydro International (an industry mag for hydrographic and side scan work) has come out with an article that has some detail on the work to b
159 2175301: Fair use extract: There is a big difference though between the South African Airways flight 295 and AF 447; my understanding is that they knew from r
160 Khobar: I thought they had the impact point pretty much down to a small area. Has this now changed?
161 2175301: They know where the debris field was a week or so after the crash. It could easily have drifted a hundred miles or more from the crash site, and due
162 Baroque: Yes, they are called side scan sonars. Check out the earlier refs to the discovery of I-52 to get an idea of the scans in terrain not that far away.
163 Huxrules: Actually in this depth they will only be able to make 2-3knots. The sidescan fish they will have to use is call a deep tow fish and will probably be
164 VirginFlyer: From what I understand, as Zeke has been putting it for some time, the problem is that pitot probes can and do produce unreliable data from time to t
165 Movingtin: The loss of reliable A/S on a single Pitot/Air Data system in not unheard of, But it is also not "common". The loss of 2 pitots/Air data systems is e
166 Astuteman: That's not necessarily correct. Indeed, the safest nuclear plant is no nuclear plant. Hence the nuclear industry operates a philosophy called ALARP (
167 HendrixAir: I totally agree. From what I have read I think that it is often the interaction between the pilots and the aircraft when airspeed data is incorrect t
168 VirginFlyer: It's not a stupid question at all, particularly if you're not familiar with how speed is measured in an aircraft. Might I recommend that you have a l
169 Khobar: Thanks! Maybe they made the wrong assumption and have been looking in the wrong place. You never know...
170 RFields5421: You have to have positive control of the unmanned device. There are two ways to do that - via a tether cable, or by underwater radio signals. At near
171 Mandala499: Unlikely... until you enter that 150kt jetstream pushing you... I think weight, rough altitude and AoA should be adequate enough for one to be able t
172 HendrixAir: Unlikely... until you enter that 150kt jetstream pushing you... I think weight, rough altitude and AoA should be adequate enough for one to be able t
173 Movingtin: Funny, I read my entire post that you quoted, and nowhere did I mention AOA at all ! as a matter of fact, I didn't even mention or quote any Pitot fa
174 2175301: Southwest Airlines just had a 737 develop a hole inflight for unknown reasons: WN Flight Diverts: "Hole" In Fuselage! (by Lexy Jul 13 2009 in Civil Av
175 GBan: Who will pay that bill? Anyone knows what the budget is? I mean, they won't be spending unlimited money for that search forever, will they?
176 Mandala499: He did not know ADR1 was unreliable. Are you referring to page 41 (pdf/ p.29 document) ? "However, the manufacturer identified that, in a very specif
177 2175301: I read somewhere that the phase 2 seach was only scheduled to run about a month. After that - they plan on wrapping it up. I don't know if that is tr
178 RFields5421: Part of the search costs is coming from the French and US military and they will not 'bill back' for their services. Real searches are the best kind
179 Zeke: My apologies, I has wrongfully assumed that you were associating QF72 with AF447, as this is an AF447 thread I had assumed that you were making a lin
180 NAV20: Just as a matter of interest, Zeke, there's nothing 'sinister' about that - not sinister as far as that specific accident is concerned, anyway. It's
181 Kaiarahi: How on earth do you keep on making this stuff up? On July 1, 2009, the ATSB was reconstituted as an independent Commonwealth Government Statutory Age
182 Kaiarahi: I just confirmed that all types of ATSB investigation reports (air, marine, rail) are currently unavailable due to database reorganization. Absolutel
183 Movingtin: ok ,obviously My original post wasn't clearly written, so here is my attemp at explaination to the post. My response to the post I Quoted.. I simply s
184 Trystero: Sorry, but I've away from the forum ( and basically away from the world...) for some days. Is there any news concerning the boxes or the remains of th
185 NAV20: Please just read the press article I quoted? Note in particular bits like:- "The TSI Act section 7(2) should state that the ATSB Executive Director i
186 NAV20: Further to that, if anyone would like to read the relevant ATSB report, this link still seems to work:- http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...008/AAI
187 Zeke: What does this thread hijack have to do with AF447 ? Thanks, that explains a lot. What does this QF72 thread hijack have to do with AF447 ? No, nothi
188 Kaiarahi: You're quoting from a 15 month old magazine article describing consultant's recommendations that were NEVER IMPLEMENTED. Several threads ago you said
189 NAV20: ONLY if the cause of the (numerous, 30-plus) similar recent A330/A340 incidents/accidents was malfunctions on the part of the ADU/IRUs, and not the p
190 Kaiarahi: Do you even read your own replies, mate? YOU were the one pointing specifically at ADIRUs, not PRIMS. On the issue YOU raised, QF72 is irrelevant.
191 NAV20: Good for you, Kaiarahi - sincerely meant. I know relatively little about aeroplanes - except that I've always managed, so far, to walk away un-injure
193 AverageUser: Since it seems we are in a permanent Jury rotation in the court of a.net in session over the various cases filed by NAV20 himself vs the Curators of
194 Breiz: For your information: The 640 bits and pieces of AF447 recovered and gathered in Recife are now in Toulouse. They were transported Recife-Pauillac o/b
195 Movingtin: So, the ENTIRE QF72 incident is irrelevant because the ADIRU's are different manufacturers? seriously? Are you suggesting that the ENTIRE FBW archite
196 Movingtin: please excuse the misspells in the prior post, I spell checked, previewed, posted and crashed. Now no edit button either.
197 Kaiarahi: If you read carefully, no one was suggesting anything of the kind. NAV20 pointed explicitly to the ADIRU issue, and that was all the response was abo
198 Dehowie: At the time the crew where conducting the ECAM actions the crew had NO idea or indications that the ADR component of the ADIRU had a problem. The dis
199 StasisLAX: " The French BEA announced, that the search for the wreckage and flight data recorders on the ocean floor will continue with the help of the oceanogra
200 NAV20: Put an article on about four threads ago, AverageUser. Can't find it again, but here is a report of 'at least nine incidents' suffered by Air France
201 Zeke: As far as we can tell the ADRIU on QF72 was not faulty. What we saw on QF72 could have also happened after a radome failure, and all probes and ADRIU
202 Dehowie: G'day Zeke..first my response was to Movingtin who was asking why the crew did not respond to an ADR fault problem. As for the ADIRU 1 not being faul
203 Dehowie: Continuing on within 4 seconds of one another the aircraft recieved a stall warning followed by an overspeed warning. Given the overspeed comes purel
204 Dehowie: I can assume from this that you seem to think performed an incorrect procedure in dealing with the problem then? If so why have Airbus released an OE
205 AverageUser: Dear NAV20 so we would agree that you posted by all means a much inflated number (30+)? Any idea as to why you found that convenient? Sounds right. Y
206 MadameConcorde: Where are they at with the searches? Any chance they will ever retrieve the flight recorders from down in the ocean? There has been tremendous rescue
207 Osteogenesis: Quoting Breiz (Reply 194): They were transported Recife-Pauillac o/b the "Ville de Bordeaux" and arrived Tuesday July 14th. The vessel is one of the t
208 Breiz: No, the ship is chartered by Airbus but owned by Fret (subsidiary of Louis Dreyfus Armateurs, France) and by CETAM (subsidiary of shipowner Leif Hoeg
209 Movingtin: Hmmm, seems to be a direct contradiction to this statement: So which is it? He says the 2 events are irelevant because the manufacturers are differen
210 NAV20: Not a matter of it being 'convenient,' AverageUser. I don't fly much myself any more, but my three kids are all 'frequent fliers.' I hope that you'll
211 Movingtin: Apparently you have not read the complete report or understood the report, This is a direct contradiction to the prelim report findings. QF72 landed
212 Khobar: Now now, Zeke is absolutely correct on this particular point. QF72 did not crash. AF447, on the other hand, did. So completely different PFR's (the l
213 Movingtin: What part of POST flight report is hard to Understand? AF447 Did not have a POST flight report. ACARS messages sent to Home base is NOT a PFR.
214 Zeke: How many engine failures have happened on A330/A340 aircraft ? How many crashes have been due to engine failures ? Because we have one engine failure
215 JONukl: I have a strange feeling that Zeke may be a good flyer, but that he is not too familiar with computer science. Tha data from an ADM sent to the ADIRU
216 Zeke: Spikes are normally associated with analogue signals or the actual analogue to digital conversion. Not on digital data side for the very reasons you
217 Pihero: Funny you can quote from a post that was banned a day ago, in response to another deleted post of yours. So I just presume you're saving my writings,
218 AverageUser: I'm speechless at this. Let me get to the basics: error detection schemes will only detect signal path errors, if a value is bad at the sensor due to
219 Weizenjaeger: Quioting the ARINC 429 article on Wikipedia "Each ARINC word is a 32-bit value that contains five fields: * Bit 32 is the parity bit, and is used to
220 Khobar: AF447's flight happened to be cut a short and necessitated the PFR to be written by other people since the charged individuals were rendered dead. I
221 Baroque: AU has to be right on that, I mean I actually learned to do BCD programming back then so it has to be: If figuring out why that A330 crashed has to g
223 JONukl: BCD-code and machine instructions to handle it is still present in many instances even in modern integrated CPU:s. Examples are legio in Intel:s x-86
224 Kiwiandrew: there are reports ( I do not know whether they are valid ) that some AF wreckage has washed up on the coast of Guyana . http://www.kaieteurnewsonline.
225 JONukl: After reading the ARINC-429 standard carefully it is obvious that bits 11 to 29 in any 32-bit data word transmitted often contain BCD or 2-complement
226 AverageUser: Of course they could contain any data to any convention, since they're just bits and implementation-independent. However, determining parity (and the
227 Weizenjaeger: Wandering a little off-topic. The MC 68881 could perform all floating point operations on BCD data, even the hyberbolic arctangent instruction. It al
228 ULMFlyer: It seems the sensor in the picture is an IMU, which contains gyros and accelerometers, and, in theory, is different from an IRU, which contains only
229 Khobar: Interesting observation. I don't see any green primer, nor do I see any of the usually support features we normally see in plane wreckage. Hmm...
230 NAV20: This story could prove to be the end of the 'bellyflop' theory. Hard to imagine every single passenger/crew member dying instantly in the impact:- "Ac
231 Starglider: The story doesn't prove or disprove anything. A bellyflop or flat spin can kill instantly at moment of impact as previous accidents have revealed. As
232 Giopan1975: Why so hard to imagine? TK 737 in Amsterdam stalled and impacted ground with belly from only some hundreds of feet with a result of 9/134 (7%) deaths
233 NAV20: Agreed, Starglider - that's why I said "....could prove to be...." But it looks increasingly unlikely now that we will ever see any 'hard evidence' o
234 Pihero: Again, the usual selective quoting that suggested that the "French official" said a lot more than "the passengers didn't die of drowning" the "this w
235 David L: But it doesn't...[Edited 2009-07-18 09:32:06]
236 WingedMigrator: Statistically speaking, that's an excellent sample, especially if the 50 seating positions were spread out through the entire cabin. The investigator
237 NAV20: Have to say, Pihero, friend, that the only thing I'm hoping for is that, between us all, we find out what caused this dreadful accident, with 228 peo
238 David L: I can't speak for anyone else but I'm pretty sure that most of us are hoping to find out what happened, not just hoping that a unique, random theory
239 Giopan1975: I agree it is an excellent sample but still not enough to say that it is highly possible that nobody died after drowning. What I find quite interesti
240 JONukl: In the document: Australian "Aviation Safety Investigation Report - Final; In-flight upset; 240km NW Perth, WA; Boeing Co 777-200, 9M-MRG", Fig.2 It
241 Pihero: Me ? I just hope that a serious concerted effort by all A.netters would narrow the window of uncertainties surrounding this accident, that people wit
242 StasisLAX: The Associated Press is now reporting that: "A fisherman in Guyana apparently has found a large piece of a plane that authorities suspect might belong
243 Pihero: As I said earlier, this is my attempt at translating an article published by the French Newspaper "le Figaro" dated 16 July 2009. Lawyers Preying On V
244 Khobar: That may be true, but the number is not as significant as the ratio: 100% show all the same kind of injury and 0% show another kind of injury. That i
245 Hamster: Brasil announced they will stop searching for crash debris. Does that hurt the ability to determine with true certainty the cause of the accident?
246 AVLNative: The Airbus 330 bashing begins, unfortunately. I guess whatever sells newspapers... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...ic-loss-Air-France-Flight-44
247 David L: Probably the same as this... The Daily Mail, eh? Throw in a photo of the Etihad 340 that got into a fight with a concrete barrier at TLS and let the
248 RFields5421: There is a big difference in saying no one died of downing and saying that no one had any water in their lungs. It is quite possible that they died o
249 Slinky09: Or the Daily Heil is it is often referred as - shameful reporting, alarmism at its worst but then just look at most of the comments that follows the
250 JONukl: I sincerely hope that the statement made in that newspaper article about the existence of kapton insulated wires in the A330 is totally wrong!!! Many
251 TwinOtter4Ever: The issue of the Kapton wiring may be a possible contributing cause in the end if they manage to recover the FDR/CVR and some further wreckage from th
252 Khobar: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-re...viation/1998/a98h0003/a98h0003.pdf "The most significant deficiency in the chain of events that resulted in th
253 TwinOtter4Ever: Thanks for locating that information Khobar. I was aware that they had some flame propagation issues with insulation in the aircraft as well as the in
254 NAV20: Although we're still working on leaks rather than any formal statements, but the fact that no smoke was found in the lungs of the recovered bodies ten
255 ComeAndGo: Are you dreaming? The A330 was just 5 years old and that toilet message appears on every other flight.
256 LTBEWR: It is very sad that these greedy lawyers are seeking to represent victims of this terrible crash. There main reason to seek these victims is to make
257 NAV20: OK, ComeAndGo, so deteriorating/contaminated wiring on A330s/A340s didn't cause any of the numerous incidents/accidents....... Nice to eliminate one
258 RFields5421: Read the Canadian Report - there was no evidence of smoke or fire damage to bodies in that crash. Now the bodies were fragmented due to the G forces
259 Giopan1975: Nav20 reactions to every interesting looking article he has been reading are admirable. Everytime he thinks he has discovered America . Anyway, from
260 Racko: They are a lawfirm trying to make money. They always use the same scheme: 1. Find a reporter who cares more about catchy headlines than the truth. 2.
261 Khobar: The fire started off small and minor, and had circumstances been different, we'd not be talking about it at all I dare say. However, eventually the f
262 Slinky09: So you missed the word 'aging' in the article. Like many other things - it can't be ruled out entirely, but neither does a lawyer and their 'expert',
263 Ellehammer09: Been away for a while, I'm still wondering why a lot of posters are targeting specific details instead of trying to put things together. The lack of i
264 AverageUser: That would have been the dreaded explosive copper-to-insulation reaction catalyzed by 100% copper, that's why you should never have your Cu quite pur
265 Rafaelyyz: I thought all wiring was replaced after some years, essentially giving a "new" aircraft.
266 NAV20: Cheers, Giopan1975 - maybe we can keep the discussion to 'possible causes' for a while. Yes - blocked pitot tubes giving wrong (almost certainly l
267 LTC8K6: NAV20, according to ACARS wasn't the LAV fault at 22:45 on 5/31, a few hours before the rest of the faults, which began around ~02:10 the next day, 6
268 Giopan1975: This is a question for the professionals to answer, but I guess that it is impossible for all cabling to be replaced during the lifespan of an airpla
269 UALWN: But isn't precisely this what is done in a D check?
270 FCA767: Newspapers are only good for one thing...UK Chip Shops use them to put chips on...(Fries in america)
271 Spacecadet: Going around in circles, for the most part. I'm not generally one to discourage discussion on a discussion forum (and I've done the opposite here in
272 474218: No. Wiring is never replaced, just repaired.
273 UALWN: Well, that's what I meant. Wiring is inspected and, if needed, repaired/replaced.[Edited 2009-07-21 08:54:50]
274 David L: "prescribed by Airbus"? Isn't the same procedure prescribed by other manufacturers?
275 JettaKnight: Didn't Orville and Wilbur come up with that one?
276 Kaiarahi: Actually not agreed on by most. At this stage, it is not established whether there was an issue with the pitots, the ADMs, or the ADIRUs. The same pr
277 David L: OK, let me rephrase: Isn't the same procedure prescribed by other manufacturers and bicycle repairers?
278 2175301: I agree with Kaiarahi: There is only speculation that there was a problem with the pitot tubes. No facts. The only real fact we have is that the plan
279 AVLNative: I was wondering when we might expect the next report, and came across this article http://www.france24.com/en/20090717-...-crash-france-brazil-investi
280 NAV20: No, guys - the Airbus procedure is hugely complicated, and contradictory in some places - and has been revised twice in the last year to provide 'sol
281 Astuteman: From the linked article... (blaze?) Do we know what the other aircraft was? (not a Qantaslink Dash-8 at Brisbane by any chance? - scant relationship
282 NAV20: Regards in return, Astuteman. So are you saying that the cause of the AF447 accident and the other incidents was, solely and beyond doubt, defective
283 Astuteman: I'm not saying anything at all, my friend (I'll happily provide comprehension lessons if you wish... ) Rgds
284 NAV20: I regret that that's the conclusion I came to as well, mate. You didn't comment at all on anything that I said. Just on what some union guy told the
285 David L: As far as I can see, the initial responses are pretty much the same as with other manufacturers - pitch and thrust. That buys time to troubleshoot. A
286 NAV20: No, mate - please look it up for yourself.... But there appears to be no possible doubt as to what current statistics show? Honestly reminds me of my
287 Breiz: Your post I referred to is now removed by the moderators. I therefore do not need to argue more with you about the fallacious use of statistics.
288 Bond007: Well, maybe, but not from what you quoted. That's pretty basic stuff. Which of course cannot usually be done, hence, 'seat of the pants' flying is so
289 Pihero: I am really wishing to see the day Nav20 would start posting in a factual manner, based on official documents, on anything about Airbus. Today, as a
290 Khobar: There would have to be some reason why the "training notes" would exist, no? I can't think of any reason why a pilot would have notes that would be c
291 Racko: French pilot unions want changes from Air France: http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...-des-mesures-pour-la-securite-.php "The next accident must ha
292 Breiz: To tell the truth, I do not understand the quote (and I'm French). The guy says at the same time that the next major crash will be with another airli
293 Racko: I read as that they must make sure that the next crash happens to LH or BA, not them, as they've used up their credit with the customers. But then aga
294 Pihero: I wouldn't give too much credit to these people. One just needs to read a few of their writings on radiocockpit, aka "radiococo" to see how serious t
295 Movingtin: Unfortunatly- its these vocal minorities that the media loves to get sound bites from and then they attribute them to the majority!
296 RFields5421: I don't understand French and have not read the quote, but I would expect this to be a poorly expressed wish - not a wish that anything bad happens t
297 Mandala499: OK, I'm back after a few weeks of hell and a bomb... dang it! Seems that the pace of the discussion has slowed down significantly... Again, the AoA fi
298 NAV20: Gosh, Mandala499 - glad you made it through....puts things in context, though, all we've had to endure here in Melbourne is 'arctic' weather - like b
299 Jerrylee: Hello everybody, I''ve been reading this thread from the beginning, as I'm not a professional in aviation, let me thank all the experts here like Mand
300 Movingtin: Interesting comments, This is the reason I quoted the 2 Pilots comments from the QF report about ECAM performance. ECAM/EICAS systems where designed,
301 TaromA380: Hello all, Few minutes ago, the France2 20h00 news edition presented the already known arrival of the AF447 recovered debris in France. Moreover, ther
302 Slinky09: So, basically our esteemed friend shot down many of your recent posts, and all you can do is comment on the weather. Heck, that's a diversion. This d
303 NAV20: We'll all have to wait until the investigsators provide more information, Slinky09. In particular, where the identified bodies were actually found. M
304 Weizenjaeger: How can you say that? Front to back, it looks like a very even spread to me as seating density is not uniform. forward cabin: 8 of 40 seats is 20.0%
305 YVRLTN: What Slinky clearly means is the pax bodies recovered were seated all over different areas of the aircraft, as opposed to the rear only or rows where
306 Weizenjaeger: The aircraft seated 219 passengers, and 216 passengers were onboard, leaving 3 seats vacant. In one of TaromA380's images, seats 29B and 39B are color
307 ComeAndGo: The Galley is from further back and not from the 2nd door area as we thought.
308 JONukl: I have been thinking a lot about the seemingly innocent ACARS msg 383100 VSC* HARD (the ATA code means "Waste Water Disposal") etc. that came some 15
309 Zeke: Somewhat incorrect to call it "Kapton", Airbus used a different version of the insulator, it was not a pure Kapton insulator. It was Kapton sandwiche
310 WingedMigrator: If you're referring to that green thing, I believe it is the cabin crew rest access.
311 Mandala499: What I find interesting is, more in the section just rear of doors L3/R3... Which is where a split might occur in a nose up low forward velocity "panc
312 JONukl: Thanks for all your valuable comments! I tried to turn all stones and look at what came up. Sometimes even innocent looking things may contain a clue
313 Zeke: It does not matter if you are flying a C152, commuter turboprop, regional jet, or a large jet, the initial actions are basically the same for unrelia
314 Gonzalo: I'll tend to agree, but regarding the airspeed indicator, it's very helpful when you have strong winds ( tailwind or headwind, doesn't matter ), your
315 David L: You mean while the wind is changing? If the aircraft is stabilised within an airstream, you need a certain thrust for a certain airspeed, regardless
316 Gonzalo: Well, Yes of course... I'm thinking in a situation of changing winds, with different headings, speeds, upward and downward motion.... in other words
317 Jerrylee: What makes me feel a little confused is when pilots flying in a high tech enviroment possibly end up reading books looking for the right pages in an e
318 JONukl: My experience is from safety analysis in the nuclear industry and this obviously colors my thinking. Very often the "human factor" turns out to be ri
319 Ellehammer09: Sorry, tried to upload some graphic I put together showing the whole cabin in one picture.. [Edited 2009-07-26 13:03:25][Edited 2009-07-26 13:04:21
320 UPSMD11: Were any of the body parts recovered part of the crew? Would the crew have been walking around and not strapped in as well? Of course there's no way o
321 Weizenjaeger: Took awhile to figure out how to upload a graphic. I hope it is accurate.
322 BOACVC10: What is the current status/activities in the search for AF A332 debris field ? Are there any active surveys in the area going on ?
323 TaromA380: They are not searching for floating debris anymore, but for metal objects at the ocean's bottom. They said black boxes surely ceased to send signals,
324 Avek00: So only big companies should call lawyers after a crash, before they even know if the victims are dead or alive?
325 2175301: I do not know what your experience or position is with nuclear power operations.... but the above characterization is wrong for the US; and I suspect
326 Cc2314: This thread has gone a wee bit off topic.How many ships are currently out searching for the a/c at the moment??
327 JONukl: I think that you deliberately misread my post. I know that the operation rules differ in Sweden and many other countries. I also know that here are s
328 RFields5421: I believe it is two, maybe three ships. The problem with these type active sonar searches is that they fill the ocean with a lot of sound waves. So w
329 JONukl: " target=_blank>http://www.stralsakerhetsmyndigheten...y1/). There was some problem with the link. Here it is again, but at the swedish text. http://
330 Mandala499: OK wait... THAT, contravenes the basic principle of flight: 1st = Aviate 2nd = Navigate 3rd = Communicate You now want the crew to not aviate and go
331 JONukl: Thank you for your important comments. I completely agree on your statements about the human factors. I also agree with you on the increased complexi
332 747megatop: I saw a thread on a.net discussing pitot problem New Problem With AF Pitot Sensors Reported (by Tobias2702 Jul 28 2009 in Civil Aviation)
333 Mandala499: Fly Pitch vs Power... Look at the ADI and look at the ECAM for the power... What pitch and power to use, look at the table... I'll add a bit to it...
334 747megatop: Has anybody suceeded in simulating the AF 447 ACARS messages in a simulator/lab environment so see what sequence of events would have caused those exa
335 RFields5421: There are two problems as I understand it. The first is the messages are not qued up in time sequence. So no one is sure exactly which order the mess
336 JONukl: Don´t forget issues with the electrical parts like wiring, computer hardware, and programs/OS-systems
337 Gonzalo: The last Monday the french ship "Pourquoi Pas" arrived to the search area, and there are also one sub involved, the "Nautilus", and the "Victor 6000"
338 Racko: Airbus offers to pay for 3rd phase of black bock search: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...2dca10-d945-4eb8-a536-696e4ea97bc9
339 NAV20: Looks like a sensible precaution. Commercially speaking, it's a pretty dramatic development, though - presumably giving Goodrich a virtual monopoly? "
340 Nwafflyer: I am really surprised - last post 9 days ago. Is there no news at all, or did Nav20 discourage everyone? (that's said with a grin)
341 UPSMD11: I agree NWAfflyer, I would like to have news as well, there has to be something. I get scared flying in and around storms now even though I am pretty
342 AirlineCritic: This article was interesting: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ts%20Under%20Scrutiny&channel=awst
343 NAV20: Sincerely appreciate the grin, NWAflyer. Only one thing is certain - a lot of lawyers are going to make their fortunes out of this one... All the sig
344 Kiwiandrew: I suppose that I should know better than to say this to a self-confessed lawyer , but since when does innocence need to be proved , I thought it was
345 Oly720man: How specific are the specifications likely to be though? To some extent you're going to rely on the expertise of your component manufacturer aren't y
346 RFields5421: All the time innocence has to be proven. Very seldom does a jury believe a defendant is not guilty of something just by being in the courtroom. It is
347 Kaiarahi: Reminds me of the guy who sued Cessna in the mid-late 80s after he tried to take off in plane with no rudder (removed during maintenance). He was suc
348 Astuteman: What's with the obsession with Airbus? All the signs are that both the airlines and the EASA hsd more evidence than Airbus did, but in many cases ele
349 Movingtin: AIRBUS knew full well there was a problem with the probes, The airlines will go straight to the manufacturer when a fault pops up, they will want war
350 Ruscoe: The aircraft which crashed was manufactured by Airbus! Ruscoe
351 Nwafflyer: I guess, to be totally simple/stupid about this one, I would still like to see the findings - yes, a pitot tube could be a part of the problem, but (a
352 Kaiarahi: And the pitots were were manufactured by Thales. And they met/exceeded regulatory standards. And it seems EASA was slow to react. And there have appa
353 Nwafflyer: And again, I'll ask - I am out of the US now for 3 weeks, and have pretty limited access here 0 let's post pertinent information, and not argue amougd
354 2175301: Pertinent Information from the last several weeks: 1) Underwater scanning of bottom in search area started about 4 weeks ago. 2) No reports of any fo
355 NAV20: Plenty of past cases where people could not be convicted because of lack of evidence, even though they were pretty clearly guilty, Kiwiandrew. One on
356 Njxc500: I second the request, thanks for the update, hope there's one at the beginning of the next thread.
357 Astuteman: I suspect his obsession with Airbus pre-dated AF447 by a tiny margin Rgds
358 Kaiarahi: 1) The burden of proof in civil cases in common law (Anglo-American, Australia, Canada, NZ etc) is actually the "balance of probabilities". 2) Both "
359 Nwafflyer: Please, let us all keep this thread open for new information, and not allow Nav20 to again 'shut it down' based on his opinions. We all have opinions,
360 Flyingwaeldar: But didn't all these different models of pitot tubes meet or exceed the certification requirements which are in place right now? Also, couldn't the i
361 NAV20: Flyingwaeldar, about 'meeting requirements, the old joke used to be, [l]"So did the 'Titanic'...."[/i] About atmospheric conditions, I agree wth you t
362 Nwafflyer: Nav, why do your posts always end a thread? I guess this one is over for Anet
363 LipeGIG: Yes guys, and seems that this thread is too long creating problems for dial-up connections. If it's the case, i suggest open the Part 22. Regards
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