Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2190 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16098 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3): UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
Shouldn't matter. UA should be held responsible for all companies flying under their flags. The ticket has UA's name on it holding them responsible as to what happens on the entire trip. Plus I'm guessing 99% of your average passengers would get off a SkyWest/United flight and couldn't tell you they weren't actually on UA much less know the name of the airline actually flying. I don't see "SkyWest" counters at your average airport, or "Mesa" counters. UA would be taking care of this situation.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 6, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16076 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3): This is good BUT by the way he presents his timeline, it looks like UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
"United Express breaks guitars" doesn't quite have the same ring to it, though.
Even if UA doesn't do the ground handling for UAX at ORD, if they contract it out, they need to make sure that the other companies working for them do their job correctly, and not throw the passengers' luggage around.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16033 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): Its just funny how airlines can't accept responsibility
Hate to say it, but you have to look in the contract of carriage to see if they are legally responsible. I don't know that they are. That said, that doesn't justify the handlers being reckless. Also, for public relations and customer happiness, sometimes an airline can give compensation when they don't actually have to.
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3): it looks like UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
Does it matter? Wouldn't UA still be the liable party? Is the Contract of Carriage different from UA to UAX?
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16022 times:
At the end of day, you should ALWAYS bring your musical instrument as a carry-on if you can. I understand that in this guys situation that he had more than one guitar and it would have been impossible to bring them both on board, but I would NEVER trust anyone to handle my instrument, no matter how cheap it is, or how hard the case is. Baggage handlers probably aren't paid a whole lot and they toss every other bag around, I feel bad for this guy about what happened to his guitar, but I'm not really surprised at all by the outcome. If something is valuable, you keep it on you, and if you can't do that on a plane then you rent a van and drive to your destination instead. If you're flying overseas and have five guitars and a drum kit you have no choice but allow someone else to handle those items, so you'll just have to take the risk or not go in the first place !!!
And any guitar in a hard case is going to look like something thats pretty valuable and if its checked-in, it might just dissapear !!! Sure, the airline might re-imburse you for it but any real musician knows that every guitar is very much a one-of-a-kind item and can never really be replaced. If you have a guitar, put it in a soft-case and bring it on board with you.
DescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15928 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 6): "United Express breaks guitars" doesn't quite have the same ring to it, though.
Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man. You know their are laywers out there that would make that argument.
Av8orwalk From United States, joined Nov 2006, 113 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15844 times:
131,000 views in a day? This video is going to be HUGE. I guess United had no idea this video was REALLY going to be produced. If they did, I'm sure $3,500 would've been pennies compare to the amount of revenue that could be lost because of this video.
It's a catchy tune! And a very well produced video.
Cheers!
Drew MCO
The safest place to be in an airplane crash is on the ground.
Doug_or From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15786 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3):
This is good BUT by the way he presents his timeline, it looks like UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
I'm almost positive all UAL and UAX ground handling in ORD is done by mainline... and it shows.
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man. You know their are laywers out there that would make that argument.
And they would almost certainly lose. He bought a ticket on United. He flew on airplanes that said United. His guitar got broken. Unless it was TSA, United broke his Guitar. If you flew SEA-SFO on Alaska, could they claim they didn't handle your luggage, Menzies did? No, of course not.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15768 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Yes it does....... I know I wouldn't want to be grouped if I was working UA ramp and the said person was a Mesa employee.
It's not a matter of how the employees want to be grouped. It's a question of where the front-line legal liability lies. Outsourcing or contracting out some function does not relieve you of responsibility. The customer still goes to UA for compensation, and it's UA's brand name at stake.
That said, I don't think the terms of carriage entitle him to compensation. But he may get it anyway, at this point.
And just heard on the news, United will take another look at his claim.
Oh man, that is a great video! I am in no way a country fan, but this one has to be one of the best country videos out there. I say, UA, give him the fixin, or give him the money to fix his damn guitar! LOL!
If I was Glenny Boy Tilton, I would be raising an eyebrow and watching the video. I think he might be too busy trading oil stocks though.
Manfredj From United States, joined Mar 2007, 861 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15557 times:
Awesome! This just proves that all is not lost in the war of big business and "small time" customers. It doesn't mean that big business is bad, it just means they are not infallible. There has always been a problem with "personalized" customer care when a business gets as large as United. This should be a wake up call that the emphasis on taking care of your clients is just as important as ever.
Catchy tune. It's smooth, enjoyable and a classy way of making a point rather than resorting to lawsuits which only hurt everyone in the end. He will be compensated for his loss.
ACKattack From United States, joined Apr 2009, 27 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 15477 times:
Quoting Fsnuffer (Reply 17): The story has now been posted on the front page of the Consumerist site. It is too late for United, the cat is out of the bag on this one
The possibly bigger issue for UA is that if this song becomes popular, it will probably be played at many live concerts, continuing the telling of this story and possibly doing alot of long term damage to their image
Falcon84 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 15040 posts, RR: 82 Reply 22, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 15276 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 8): At the end of day, you should ALWAYS bring your musical instrument as a carry-on if you can.
Hard to do if it's on an RJ, unless they're small instruments. I've seen people with cello's and tuba's buy extra seats for the instruments. In any event, it is incumbent on the airline personel to handle those items with care. No excuse for having them break apart.
Spacecadet From United States, joined Sep 2001, 2057 posts, RR: 20 Reply 24, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 15235 times:
My 2 cents:
1. He should have bought a flight case. This is why they exist. They're practically bomb-proof and bullet-proof. You don't put a regular guitar case in checked baggage. I seriously thought every guitarist knew that.
2. However stupid the guy was, that doesn't absolve United from responsibility, in the same way being stupid enough to take your money out to count it in a bad neighborhood does not absolve a thief from responsibility for stealing it.
3. This will be a PR nightmare for UA. This is already on Digg, it's on here, I'm sure it's on the guitar forums I read. 131,000 views already and no doubt that's going to double and triple in the next few days. They would have been a lot better off just paying him the $3,500. Now they're going to end up paying him that anyway *and* getting all the bad press. They could have at least avoided the bad PR if they'd just paid him to begin with.
I honestly hope this serves as a lesson to airlines that they need to be more careful with luggage, because you never know who you're messing with or what they can do to you.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
Silentbob From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Aug 2006, 984 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 15198 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man. You know their are laywers out there that would make that argument.
And the airline would get tons of negative publicity every step of the way. The cost would be far worse than just paying the guy off.
that's an interesting legal question. I don't have the time to carefully read the contract of carriage or case law precedent to see how that would work.
IN any case, people should remember that there are two very different issues here:
- what UA should do, for good customer relations
- what UA has to do, legally, per the contract they have with their customers
It would be good to keep this in mind, when discussing.
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1695 posts, RR: 11 Reply 27, posted (5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15455 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Reply 19): Awesome! This just proves that all is not lost in the war of big business and "small time" customers.
Except to get satisfaction, you need to be a really good songwriter with a fanbase. Sad.
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 24):
1. He should have bought a flight case. This is why they exist. They're practically bomb-proof and bullet-proof. You don't put a regular guitar case in checked baggage. I seriously thought every guitarist knew that.
Do you know that he didn't do this? And even if he did...
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4): United breaks lots of things, especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases.
T5towbar From United States, joined Feb 2009, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14753 times:
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 8):
At the end of day, you should ALWAYS bring your musical instrument as a carry-on if you can.
Hard to do if it's on an RJ, unless they're small instruments. I've seen people with cello's and tuba's buy extra seats for the instruments. In any event, it is incumbent on the airline personel to handle those items with care. No excuse for having them break apart.
That's true.
If he was flying on UAX, he was on one of those RJ's where you would have to gate check the item, and the ramp crew would have to handle it. Usually the gate agent would put a "special handling" tag to let the ramp know that that item should be handled with care. But it depends on the ramp crew on the ground, if they are attentive or not.
If it is a small instrument, I've seen the flight crew put a guitar in the crew compartment sometimes. But that's not often, if there is not a lot of room.
Still, as a ramp agent, you should take pride in your work and make sure stuff doesn't get broken or lost.
Type-Rated From United States, joined Sep 1999, 2269 posts, RR: 28 Reply 32, posted (5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13894 times:
I think we all should bombard UA e-mail addresses with this video, just to rub their noses in it.
I imagine some UA employees are actually laughing at it too.
If you think about it, this is just another "cry in your beer" country song...
I enjoyed it, you have to pay attention to the lyrics to get the most out of it. Wonderfully produced!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
Fair use excerpt from above link: "Complicating matters: He didn't file a claim within 24 hours, as United requires. Carroll said no United agents had been on duty when his plane landed in Omaha around midnight. He left early the next morning for a tour of Nebraska and didn't report the damage until he returned to the Omaha airport a week later."
If you want to get all "legalese", UA owes him nothing.
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4): United breaks lots of things, especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases. They've busted three of mine and that's why I refuse to fly them.
Quoting Manfredj (Reply 19): Awesome! This just proves that all is not lost in the war of big business and "small time" customers. It doesn't mean that big business is bad, it just means they are not infallible.
UA cracked a Delsey hardside bag of mine a couple of years ago while returning to BWI (from AUA, via ORD). I returned the following morning, filed a claim and a few weeks later after UA sent the bag out to try to repair it (no chance that was going to happen), I was informed that they would replace the bag at full *retail* value.
Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 32): I think we all should bombard UA e-mail addresses with this video, just to rub their noses in it.
Yeah, that's a great idea (sigh)...
777fan
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" - Edmund Burke
Simpilot459 From United States, joined Sep 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13537 times:
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4): especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases
Are you talking about the hard plastic ones? When I worked baggage, those were the worst. they don't stack well and they slide easily, which causes things to move around more in flight.
I always tried to make sure I was careful with things like guitars, bicycles, golf clubs, etc. and when things had to be gate checked, I always asked if there were any breakables such as laptops. Definitely try to take valuable/breakable things as carry-on. Even if they must be gate checked, they end up on top where they are less likely to get crushed, and don't have to go through the entire baggage belt system. Less chance for something to go wrong.
You put it in a padded gig bag, and then you put *that* into another case made of 1/8" steel and wood and protected by rubberized foam on all sides.
The other obvious way to know that he did not use a flight case is that the way he knew United was throwing it around was from other passengers saying "look, they're throwing guitars!" As you can see below, when a flight case is closed, most people are not going to have any inkling of what it is. I'm a guitarist and even I wouldn't be sure if this was a guitar or a set of photographic equipment, which ship in the exact same type of case.
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4):
United breaks lots of things, especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases.
I own three of those "bullet-proof" Japanese suitcases and they are hardly as tough as a guitar flight case. (My wife is Japanese and two of our suitcases are technically hers; the third we just bought last month in Tokyo because we ran out of suitcase space.) They're just thin plastic suitcases. They are made mainly for domestic Japan travel - they're intended for protecting your clothes and camera and whatever through *normal* handling (which is what they do in Japan).
A guitar flight case is something else entirely. You're talking about the difference between a Jeep Wrangler and a US Army Humvee. Yes, they are superficially similar, but one is built for regular light consumer use and the other is built to withstand any amount of hardcore abuse short of an IED (and maybe even beyond that, depending on the armor plating - that goes for guitar flight cases too).
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
Fsnuffer From United States, joined Jun 2007, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 13124 times:
According to this guy he has said there was going to be three videos. The first is done and the second is close to wrap and he said the third is upto United. Since we are all experts here on everithing from aviation to marital advice, what would we suggest United do for the third video. A cameo for Tilton, Gettelfinger singing about customer service, customers not whining about pretzels and peanuts. Wide open field here.
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 38, posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 13107 times:
Quoting 777fan (Reply 33): If you want to get all "legalese", UA owes him nothing.
I think UAL would be stupid to pay him anything at this point. The damage has been done. If they pay out its sends a message that they will pay out to those who publicly harass them even if UAL doesn't owe them. What good would it do UAL at this point to pay. I can't think of one good reason for them to.
I don't think this guy packed the guitar properly. I used to handle bags. We never purposely roughly handled bags however things happen bags fall and shift and you have to heave them sometimes to get them into place or off the belt. Sturdy squared off bags with flat sides and handles on most edges with recessed wheels load best and are least likely to get damaged. They have to be stacked if it's shaped like a brick it stacks better. Insturments should be properly packed in appropriate travel cases, taken on as carryon or placed in a purchased seat.
Aircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 687 posts, RR: 3 Reply 39, posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 13025 times:
I really whish there was at least ONE airline that would take the time to sit down with musicians, listen to how we would like our instruments be taken care of, write down a protocol about how they will treat instruments, provide information to at least one or two rampers at each airport, make one person responsible at each airport, and then contact the AFM (American Federation of Musicians). I bet every travelling member would go with that airline.
"The limits of my language means the limits of my world." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
Aeropix From United States, joined Jun 2005, 17 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 13016 times:
NOT Original at all...
In the 1984 Album "One Million Lawyers and Other Disasters" comedy folk singer TOM PAXTON sang a rousing complaint about Republic Airlines RC breaking the neck on his guitar. Here is the final refrain from his hilarius rant "Thank You Republic Airlines"...
Thank you, Republic Airlines, for splintering the neck on my guitar!
My guitar case was so strong that nothing could go through it,
Way to go Republic, only you could do it,
Crash bang, Republic Airlines, in the field of demolition, you'll go far!
For you took it as a challenge when I turned in my case.
and you saw the fragile stickers glued all over the place,
May a team of mad flamenco dancers do to your face
What you did to the neck on my guitar!
There could no satisfaction greater than if,
You should be the next to go the way of Braniff!
A little piece of airline history for us Aviation geeks.
According to that article, somebody at UAL said they'd use the music video internally as some sort of lesson for their customer service people.
Whether that is true or not, UAL's public attitude has been pretty humble on this one, once the guy went public. At least they recognise they've got a PR problem here.
You put it in a padded gig bag, and then you put *that* into another case made of 1/8" steel and wood and protected by rubberized foam on all sides.
The other obvious way to know that he did not use a flight case is that the way he knew United was throwing it around was from other passengers saying "look, they're throwing guitars!" As you can see below, when a flight case is closed, most people are not going to have any inkling of what it is. I'm a guitarist and even I wouldn't be sure if this was a guitar or a set of photographic equipment, which ship in the exact same type of case.
Great explanation. So really, at the end of the day he should have been traveling with a flight case, because even with extreme care being taken by the baggage handlers . . .
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): things happen bags fall and shift and you have to heave them sometimes to get them into place or off the belt.
I'm pretty sure he had put his guitar in a hard shelled case, and even though supposedly the baggage handlers were being quite rough with it, it still could have ended up being damaged completely by accident. At the end the day it's this guys fault for not ensuring his guitar was packed safely, and if he had done that, then he would have saved himself a WHOLE lot of hassle (but I bet he's getting a lot of publicity for his little ditty, so maybe he's actually benefited from this in the end).
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): Insturments should be properly packed in appropriate travel cases, taken on as carryon or placed in a purchased seat.
IRelayer From United States, joined Jul 2005, 921 posts, RR: 2 Reply 43, posted (5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12856 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 5): Shouldn't matter. UA should be held responsible for all companies flying under their flags. The ticket has UA's name on it holding them responsible as to what happens on the entire trip. Plus I'm guessing 99% of your average passengers would get off a SkyWest/United flight and couldn't tell you they weren't actually on UA much less know the name of the airline actually flying. I don't see "SkyWest" counters at your average airport, or "Mesa" counters. UA would be taking care of this situation.
Very true. After all, it is SkyWest doing business as United Express. This would imply to me United is responsible for all conduct of SkyWest and their employees while dba United Express.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 45, posted (5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12408 times:
Quoting 777fan (Reply 33):
If you want to get all "legalese", UA owes him nothing.
Sure, but if you want to get all "good customer service", they should have taken care of this guy instead of giving him the runaround and ticking him off. I mean, if the guy's story is true and the baggage handlers were actually throwing the instruments around, that's pretty bad behavior.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): I think UAL would be stupid to pay him anything at this point. The damage has been done.
I don't think so. As this thing continues to gain notice and publicity, "United eventually made amends by offering [free flight vouchers/a new guitar/whatever]" is a much more positive coda to the story than "United still refuses to compensate the songwriter for the damage". Plus, the guy has promised to make two more videos about it.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 41): According to that article, somebody at UAL said they'd use the music video internally as some sort of lesson for their customer service people.
Whether that is true or not, UAL's public attitude has been pretty humble on this one, once the guy went public. At least they recognise they've got a PR problem here.
See, they got it... Eventually. I'm sure they'll give this guy something for his trouble.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 42): Insturments should be properly packed in appropriate travel cases, taken on as carryon or placed in a purchased seat.
Exactly, couldn't agree with you more !!!
Sure, *ideally* he would have a flight case, but that doesn't excuse the baggage handlers for literally throwing baggage, and especially obviously fragile items like musical instruments.
Pellegrine From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 1 Reply 47, posted (5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12326 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 29): The song and video were just featured on CNN... I'm sure this will get at least a million hits over the next week or so.
HarrisonRuess From Canada, joined Sep 2008, 68 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (5 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12017 times:
Quoting Av8orwalk (Reply 12): 131,000 views in a day? This video is going to be HUGE.
It's nearly at a 1/4 million views now.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): I don't think this guy packed the guitar properly. I used to handle bags. We never purposely roughly handled bags however things happen bags fall and shift and you have to heave them sometimes to get them into place or off the belt.
While I entirely agree that shift inevitably happens with luggage; things get bumped about, etc - this story here is an entirely different issue.
From all accounts, the baggage was being thrown around (which has nothing to do with it bumping around on a conveor or with other luggage).
Could he have bought a bomb-proof case for his guitar? Sure. I bet in fact that he owns one now. But, really, you shouldn't have to. Something like a guitar/guitar case is fairly recognizable as such, and handlers ought to take a reasonable amount of care (i.e. don't play football with it). And, hard surface guitar cases aren't exactly cardboard to begin with.
IMO from an editorial perspective, as much as it's a catchy song, and "little guy takes on big bad company" work here for publicity, the line that makes it all work is, "My god they're throwing guitars!" That really sets this story apart from the usual damaged luggage stories.
I do imagine UA will try to salvage some sort of positive PR out of this situation, although as some have said, it might be hard to do that at this point.
Theredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 1189 posts, RR: 6 Reply 49, posted (5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11860 times:
I have 2 Ibanez Jem guitars one cost 2300 and the other 3400, both come with professional hard cases. Well I brought them from California on the overhead compartment since the dimensions fit exactly those compartments (I did not believe it but they fit there perfectly)
Anyways a friend of mine bought one similar like mine and flew Delta, the case arrived like it had been shipped from Iraq, and yes the neck was broken.
I bet United will pay. If they are stupid enough to let this guy to make the other 2 videos they will loose even more than 3500.
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 50, posted (5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10864 times:
Quoting HarrisonRuess (Reply 48): Could he have bought a bomb-proof case for his guitar? Sure.
No one is suggesting a bomb proof case. Merely a suitable TRAVEL case for when he TRAVELs. That is called packing your belongings responsibly. It is not excessive.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 45): "United eventually made amends by offering [free flight vouchers/a new guitar/whatever]" is a much more positive coda to the story than "United still refuses to compensate the songwriter for the damage".
I disagree the coda will be If you have the money, talent and resources to publicly humiliate United you will get your money back everyone else is still SOL.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 45): Plus, the guy has promised to make two more videos about it.
He could make thousands. The damage is done with the first one. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
Quoting HarrisonRuess (Reply 48): From all accounts, the baggage was being thrown around
Unless you want to wait hours for your luggage or for your bags to missconnect that is they are going to get tossed and heaved around. They are going to get swung from the belt to the carts. With a properly packed bag the contents will not be damaged by this NORMAL handling. Yes it is normal.
Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 49): I bet United will pay. If they are stupid enough to let this guy to make the other 2 videos they will loose even more than 3500.
The damage is done it doesn't make an iota of difference now if they pay.
Speedbird128 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2003, 804 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10743 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): We never purposely roughly handled bags
As an air traffic controller in a tower which was alongside the ramp, i have witness willful and intentional abuse and destruction of people luggage / baggage. Some rampers think "FRAGILE" means "KICK HERE". It was reported, nothing happened. I *NEVER* check in anything that's breakable.
Goldenshield From United States, joined Jan 2001, 4069 posts, RR: 13 Reply 53, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10277 times:
Quoting IRelayer (Reply 43): Very true. After all, it is SkyWest doing business as United Express. This would imply to me United is responsible for all conduct of SkyWest and their employees while dba United Express.
As stated before, even IF SkyWest was flying the flight, it was NOT that company's rampers that caused the issue, because they don't exist at ORD. It was that United MAINLINE rampers that run the express gates that are the cause of this issue.
"I heard that there are rumors on the internets" -- G. W. Bush at the second 2004 debate
JohnMKE From United States, joined Jun 2009, 27 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9904 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 6): Even if UA doesn't do the ground handling for UAX at ORD, if they contract it out, they need to make sure that the other companies working for them do their job correctly, and not throw the passengers' luggage around
Quoting Doug_or (Reply 13): I'm almost positive all UAL and UAX ground handling in ORD is done by mainline... and it shows.
Quoting United1 (Reply 23): UA Mainline handles UAX ground operations at ORD....
Proves that the Union United Ramp Employees that are getting paid $15.00 plus an hour are really makeing there pay....United shoud contract thier ground handling out that could do three things. 1.Save money 2.Have employees that have to answer for what they do (no union proteciton of worthless employees) 3.Improve the ground handling costomer service.
Quoting IRelayer (Reply 43): Very true. After all, it is SkyWest doing business as United Express. This would imply to me United is responsible for all conduct of SkyWest and their employees while dba United Express.
It should be also said that it is United Employees at the ticket counter. Although the rumor is that Skywest plans to do above and below wing operaiton on all United Express at ORD (They have placed a bid for Terminal 2), until that happenes that won't be a change.
ANOTHER NOTE:
What are you doing checking Musicial Instruments anyway, when you can ship via cargo when it can be insured and delivered directly to your theater or bar where you would be playing in.
If something is so important to you why not pay the extra price to insure it with the airline. I'm sure that is one of the reasons that United is giving the guy so much problems. I know I would love to brake my old guitar, put it in a case, and then try to get a new one so United could pay for it.
If anyone has worked in the baggage proccessing, they would know that bags get banged around not just in the aircraft, the carts/cans, but in the belt system also.
AndyinPIT From United States, joined Sep 2007, 158 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9629 times:
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): Proves that the Union United Ramp Employees that are getting paid $15.00 plus an hour are really makeing there pay
its, making their pay...
And how do you know that they had 7 years with the company? (thats how long it takes to make $15 an hour with United) How did you know they weren't making $8.70, the rate new hires are making? I get really tired of reading posts by people who have nothing to do with the aviation industry thinking all ramp workers are these dumb group of people. I worked for United for nearly 5 years and now am an air traffic controller? What, are controllers idiots too? Should we not make the money we make? Why dont you go put in 5-10 years at an airline and see just how hard it is.
Oh, and Air Wisconsin damaged my bag 2 weeks ago, I'm in the process of making a song and crying about it
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 58, posted (5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9504 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 45): Sure, *ideally* he would have a flight case, but that doesn't excuse the baggage handlers for literally throwing baggage, and especially obviously fragile items like musical instruments.
But there are idiots out there everywhere, its more a case of not entrusting your valuable items with anyone else but yourself and taking the necessary steps to prevent damage to your valuables if the event they do happen to encounter idiots, like putting your guitar in a proper flight case.
Quoting HarrisonRuess (Reply 48): From all accounts, the baggage was being thrown around (which has nothing to do with it bumping around on a conveor or with other luggage).
But how can anyone prove that this is what actually broke his guitar, all that I can get from the story (maybe I'm missing something) is that passengers on the aircraft saw the baggage handlers throwing the guitars, which although is very irresponsible, does not actually mean that they dropped them and they hit the ground or that they were caught in such a way that caused damage. If no one actually saw the guitars hit the ground after the handlers were throwing them, it could be quite possible that something else cased them to break. He said he only looked at this guitar the next day after he arrived in Omaha, maybe it had broken at some point well after his flight was over, and just because he happened to see the handlers throwing his guitar, he just assumed that this is what must have caused the damage ???
Lets say it was damaged at some other point during his flight. like on the conveyor belt or due to shifting aorund during the flight, is UA still responsible for it then ???
I only just realized now that they guitar in question was $3,500 Taylor Acoustic guitar. I mean, to check an instrument like that onto an aircraft and not in a proper flight case is just stupid. Like he said in his video, he should have drove instead !!!!
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): I know I would love to brake my old guitar, put it in a case, and then try to get a new one so United could pay for it.
It is actually possible that he dropped the guitar himself, knowing quite well that it was damaged, and then used the whole baggage handler throwing thing to try to scam the airline to buy him a new guitar. Yes, it is unlikey but there are many people out there who try to pull these scams each and every day, and I'm sure UA knows about them only all too well.
Joeljack From United States, joined Feb 2005, 532 posts, RR: 1 Reply 59, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9309 times:
I fly United a ton and have NEVER has any baggage issue at DEN. 100% arrival rate...undamaged. My issues with bags not making my flights etc have always came transferring in Chicago. It happens to me about 1 out of every 10 trips through ORD, never any damage though.
Off the topic but I've found the opposite holds true for Customer service reps. Generally outstanding in ORD and very accommodating. Had several bad experiences in DEN though with rude agents not will to do what I would like. I've also had some great experiences in DEN though...it's just more hit or miss than ORD.
SeeTheWorld From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1080 posts, RR: 6 Reply 60, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9298 times:
To all you that suggest he should have packed it better ... that may be so. But the airline should never accept checked luggage that is not OBVIOUSLY properly packed. A guitar is recognizable to everyone. Whether he should have packed it correctly or not is completely irrelevant at this point. I suspect that this video has more to do with the way he was treated by customer service over A FULL YEAR then with the actual incident. Had United shown some humility in the first place and treated him a bit more like a customer, some compromise could have been made.
Having said that, in the age of instant communication, youtube, and the internet, you'd think that someone in Customer Relations at a huge company would consider that a MUSICIAN who had a following would be someone you don't want to "blow off." Hence, the hilarious video which is going VIRAL.
United will pay because if they don't, he will continue to write songs ...
I don't fly them a lot, but have checked golf clubs (SFO-HNL/OGG) before and never had an issue. Hope there was no malicious intent with the accusations made.
JohnMKE From United States, joined Jun 2009, 27 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9288 times:
Quoting AndyinPIT (Reply 57): I get really tired of reading posts by people who have nothing to do with the aviation industry thinking all ramp workers are these dumb group of people
I have 11 years in the industry, and 8 of them have been working on the ramp or supervising a ramp. At no time did I indicate that I thought ramp employees were dumb. Related I had a typo, you must feel better for correcting it.
Jawake From United States, joined Sep 2007, 253 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9283 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 60):
United will pay because if they don't, he will continue to write songs ...
On the website he has promised 3 songs.....
To date I have written “United: Song 1” and “United: Song 2” and I’m proud to now release the first video in the trilogy. The response has been incredible so far. Everyone involved in the recording of the track and filming/editing of the video has volunteered their time and pre-production work is underway for the filming of United: Song 2 (hopefully to be released later this summer).
United has demonstrated they know how to keep their airline in the forefront of their customer’s minds and I wanted this project to expand upon that satirically. I’ve been done “being angry” for quite some time and, if anything, I should thank United. They’ve given me a creative outlet that has brought people together from around the world. We had a pile of laughs making the recording and the video while the images are spinning on how to make “United: Song 2” even better than the first. So, thanks United! If my guitar had to be smashed due to extreme negligence I’m glad it was you that did it. Now sit back and enjoy the show.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 64, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9231 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 58):
But there are idiots out there everywhere, its more a case of not entrusting your valuable items with anyone else but yourself and taking the necessary steps to prevent damage to your valuables if the event they do happen to encounter idiots, like putting your guitar in a proper flight case.
No one is disagreeing with you that he should have had a flight case. But just because he didn't have one, it doesn't mean he deserved to get his guitar broken. Just because you find yourself in a bad neighborhood, even if you know that crime is more likely to occur there, that doesn't mean that you deserve to get robbed.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 58): It is actually possible that he dropped the guitar himself, knowing quite well that it was damaged, and then used the whole baggage handler throwing thing to try to scam the airline to buy him a new guitar.
Sure, anything is possible I suppose. But if he alerted the flight attendents at the time, and then followed up with the airline, calling and jumping through hoops for a whole year, and then went to the effort of making multiple videos about it, that lends a bit of credibility to his story.
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3161 posts, RR: 4 Reply 65, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9230 times:
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): United shoud contract thier ground handling out that could do three things. 1.Save money 2.Have employees that have to answer for what they do (no union proteciton of worthless employees)
Union or non-Union on United, Southwest, American or any other airline on the planet baggage handlers break things mostly by accident but sometimes willfully. I was on a Southwest, an airline known for having great customer service and supposedly caring employees, flight 6 or 7 years ago and upon arrival at OAK saw baggage handlers unloading boxes marked fragile by throwing them 3 or 4 feet onto a cart. It happens sometimes and remember this is his side of the story not UAs and almost certainly not exactly what happened. My guess is UA will pay him off, well more likely UAs insurance company, and as a condition of the payoff those songs will magically disappear.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 66, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9239 times:
After re-reading the Chicago Tribune story . . . even though there were no UA agents to report the damage to when he arrived in OMA, would it have been so hard for him to drive back to the airport in the morning to try to make the claim, or at least try to call within the 24 hour period required ??? It seems incredibly negligent on his part that he waited a whole week until he returned to OMA to make the claim. In a very serious incident like this, where a $3,500 guitar was damaged quite badly, you need to do whatever it takes to show someone at the airline as soon as possible, even if that means having to drive back to the airport the next morning and possibly delaying the start of your tour etc. If he had done this, I don't think there would have been any problems. Yes, s**t happens, but he just didn't follow up and deal with the situation effectively. If returning to the airport the next day incurred costs for him, then he surely could have claimed them back from UA, as there should have been an agent at the airport to report the incident to when he arrived the night before.
I understand that from UA's point of view, anything over 24 hours is going to be a bit too late. If the guy shows up a week later and says "my guitar is broken", how is anyone going to be able to prove that it was in fact broken by the airline an entire week ago !!! And if there was absolutely no way that he could return to the airport the next day, then he should have done all he could to get in contact by phone to report the incident so at least there was a record of it somewhere.
At the end of the day, or at least as far as I'm concerned, it appears that there is absolutely no proof that the baggage handlers throwing his guitar is what caused the damage. It could have happened at any other stage of the journey, and honestly it really doesn't have anything to do with the situation. It's just sensationalism (but it does make for a pretty good song however !!!) Basically he checked his guitar in on United and when he picked it upon completion of his journey it was broken. There was no one working for UA when he arrived to report the incident to and instead of returning to the airport the next day he drove off to start his tour and failed to contact the airline by phone, therefore breaching the 24 hour condition of his contract.
Seems like a very open and shut case to me, and this is why he probably hasn't taken legal action and just decided to write a song about it instead !!!
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 67, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9209 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 60): But the airline should never accept checked luggage that is not OBVIOUSLY properly packed.
They can accept it, but they should inform the passenger of the terms of liability up front, so there is no confusion later.
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): If something is so important to you why not pay the extra price to insure it with the airline.
For whatever it's worth, it sounds like he did have it insured. The insurance paid for a replacement; he wanted UAL to pay for the repairs on the original, since he likes the original.
SeeTheWorld From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1080 posts, RR: 6 Reply 68, posted (5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9157 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 66): Seems like a very open and shut case to me, and this is why he probably hasn't taken legal action and just decided to write a song instead !!!
Except all of that doesn't matter. The reason that it has blown up in United's face is because they subsequently handled the issue poorly. We have no idea why it took him a week to report back to United, but the fact that there were no UA officials in Nebraska at arrival was not his fault. He was also on a week-long tour that may have been extremely busy, and btw, one of his guitars was smashed. He may have been spending his free time trying to get a replacement guitar. Regardless, rules such as contact UA within 24 hours are practical to weed out the BS. That doesn't mean that it makes good business sense to enforce the letter of the law to a "T". Employees are trained to do their jobs and enforce procedures, but they should also be trained to identify situations that may require some flexibility - it's called training your people to THINK!!!!! Anyone can enforce regulations, but when you are in customer service, you need to be able to know the difference between strict enforcement and flexibility.
United is my carrier of choice for a number of reasons. I do not believe they are the best or even remotely close, and I hate to see any airline get bad press. BUT, I also get tired of employess not earning their pay whether it's throwing passengers guitars around on the tarmac or ignoring a valid customer complaint. United blew it here and now they have to suffer the consequences. It's all about managing the damage at this point.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 70, posted (5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8986 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): the fact that there were no UA officials in Nebraska at arrival was not his fault
No that was not his fault, but it was his fault that he didn't return to the airport the following day to report it within the 24 hour period stated in his contract.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): He was also on a week-long tour that may have been extremely busy, and btw, one of his guitars was smashed. He may have been spending his free time trying to get a replacement guitar.
I assume he spent the night in a hotel in Omaha after he arrived there. I don't see how returning to the airport would have been such a huge deal, but for some reason he didn't do it. Thats why the airline gives a whole 24 hours for him to report the incident. The fact that he made no attempt to contact them by phone the next day is also very irresponsible on his part.
The airline will take responsibility for transporting your baggage and will also pay re-imbursement but only under certain conditions i.e. specifically the conditions that are set out in the contract that they have provided for the customer.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): rules such as contact UA within 24 hours are practical to weed out the BS. That doesn't mean that it makes good business sense to enforce the letter of the law to a "T". Employees are trained to do their jobs and enforce procedures, but they should also be trained to identify situations that may require some flexibility - it's called training your people to THINK!!!!! Anyone can enforce regulations, but when you are in customer service, you need to be able to know the difference between strict enforcement and flexibility.
Yes, but imagine if someone showed up at the customer service desk at OMA and said, "I flew in here a week ago, my guitar was broken when I picked it up. There were no agents to report it to opon arrival, but I did not return the next day to report it nor have I made any attempts at communication with the airline since then", like I said before, it had been a whole week, and there was no way that anyone at UA could actually know that his guitar was actually damaged when he said it was !!!
There are some situations like this where you really have no choice but to enforce the letter of the law down to a very large "T", and this looks like it was definitely one of them. Thats why you have contracts and rules and regulations, because when you have a situation like this, when you really have no idea of what actually happened, those are the things that you have no choice but to fall back on in order to make the final decision.
Sometimes its the customer trying to screw the companies and not the other way around, and United has every right to protect itself by putting these contracts in place as well as strictly enforcing them.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): United blew it here and now they have to suffer the consequences
Well no I think the customer blew it, but he sure is making it look like UA blew it and yes I'm sure they will suffer the consequences of him pointing the finger at them. Yes they broke his guitar, but accidents happen, sometimes you have very negligent staff, in fact all companies do, but they also would have happily re-imbursed him if he had followed the correct procedures.
But such is the airline industry !!! Disasters happen all the time, and much bigger ones than this including where planes crash and people die. United is a BIG airline, and when you are a big as they are you are going to have A LOT of problems, and this is just one of them. Yes this will cause them some PR damage but this stuff happens, and thats just life, but I'm sure the people at United will be able to deal with it.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 71, posted (5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8932 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 70): No that was not his fault, but it was his fault that he didn't return to the airport the following day to report it within the 24 hour period stated in his contract.
Is it reasonable to assume that everybody has the opportunity to do so? You don't know if he's busy the whole next day; you don't know if he's got to drive 200 miles to some other place the next day... If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
All that said, the airlines should know that nobody reads the terms in the contract of carriage. IF there is a possible issue, the airline should notify the pax ahead of time - say, hey, the way your guitar is packed, something may happen, and we aren't going to fix it.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 72, posted (5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8869 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): Is it reasonable to assume that everybody has the opportunity to do so? You don't know if he's busy the whole next day; you don't know if he's got to drive 200 miles to some other place the next day... If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
Yes it does make life difficult, but if he wants to be re-imbursed, then that is what he has to
do !!!
And how hard is it make one phone call, or maybe even a few??? There's absolutely no excuse on his part for not doing so !!!
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): All that said, the airlines should know that nobody reads the terms in the contract of carriage
Well they don't write terms in the contract for the fun of it, they're there for a reason, to very much legally protect their asses when a situation like this arises. If the customer doesn't read them, thats fine, but then thats their problem and not the airlines.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 73, posted (5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8849 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 72): Yes it does make life difficult, but if he wants to be re-imbursed, then that is what he has to
do !!!
If you set some restriction on the customer, you have to give them a reasonable chance at fulfilling it. I think keeping the claims desk manned while flights are still coming in is part of that.
Agreed that he could have called somebody.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 72): Well they don't write terms in the contract for the fun of it, they're there for a reason, to very much legally protect their asses when a situation like this arises. If the customer doesn't read them, thats fine, but then thats their problem and not the airlines.
Legally, yes. But your goal in running an airline is to make a profit, not to win every legal argument with your customers. Sometimes this can mean giving compensation when you don't have to. Heck, just give the guy some frequent flyer miles, if you don't want to give cash. It can also mean taking steps to avoid the problem in the first place, by educating the customer on the terms he is implicitly agreeing to.
ChrisNH From United States, joined Jun 1999, 3178 posts, RR: 3 Reply 74, posted (5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8828 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man.
If he didn't 'name names' of the baggage handlers, who's the plaintiff? The only name that I saw in the video was some customer service woman. If she said 'No,' then the video wasn't slandering her.
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1695 posts, RR: 11 Reply 75, posted (5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8774 times:
Quoting Fxramper (Reply 55): Never heard of this guy or his 'band'.
You have now! Different paths to fame. I like the music, as it turns out.
Quoting Fxramper (Reply 55): UA can furlough a few more FA and pay him for his guitars.
Or, perhaps, avoid the extreme you suggest, encourage better baggage handling among its workers, and perhaps avoid 100s of thousands in damage or replacement claims. Make that a marketing centerpiece. Cater to people concerned about their luggage. Gain more customers. Just a suggestion.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 66): would it have been so hard for him to drive back to the airport in the morning to try to make the claim, or at least try to call within the 24 hour period required ???
I can see numerous scenarios where there just isn't time to do this. He and his band are on tour, it's fast paced, maybe his small band doesn't have more than one manager/handler. You can't just hold up a tour or your band to pursue a damagen claim for a day on the phone or at the airport. Maybe he (naively) assumed that it could be taken care of afterwords. What if you are on a package tour, do you stay behind with your luggage claim while the rest of the vacationers move on? What if you are on a honeymoon with all kinds of reservations booked ahead? What if you are on a fast-paced multicity business hop? Seems something could be handled without the hardline enforcement, leaving the customer happy and the airline no worse for wear.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 77, posted (5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8661 times:
Quoting Rampart (Reply 76): You can't just hold up a tour or your band to pursue a damagen claim for a day on the phone or at the airport.
Well I don't think it would have taken anywhere near a whole day. If he had tried to call, I'm sure it wouldn't have been that straightforward, it might have taken him half an hour, maybe a more, maybe he would have been put on hold few times, had to explain his story a few times, maybe given a few different numbers to call etc. But regardless, it looks like he didn't even bother. From my point of view, if I had a $3,500 guitar damaged by an airline I would positively do everything I could to let them now about it ASAP.
Quoting Rampart (Reply 76): Maybe he (naively) assumed that it could be taken care of afterwords.
I definitely think this was most likely his frame of mind at the time. "Naivety", such a lovely word isn't it ??? Sure doesn't last too long once you start travelling. I bet this guy will do whatever it takes in the future to avoid his guitar being damaged, and if a similar situation arises, he'll makes sure he lets the airline know within 24 hours !!!
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 77): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 70):
Well no I think the customer blew it,
LOL - I don't even think United would agree with that statement at this point.
Well, at this stage UA are of course going to say that they "blew it" for PR purposes, what they really think is probably another story. Accidents do happen, and things get broken but if anything is their fault its not having a customer service agent on duty when the flight arrived in OMA.
SeeTheWorld From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1080 posts, RR: 6 Reply 78, posted (5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8574 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 78): Well, at this stage UA are of course going to say that they "blew it" for PR purposes, what they really think is probably another story. Accidents do happen, and things get broken but if anything is their fault its not having a customer service agent on duty when the flight arrived in OMA.
Accidents do happen and customers understand that. We're saying the same things - i.e. it was the failure of UA's initial response that has caused the problem - whether it's not having a CSA in OMA, or failing to adequately deal with the situation post OMA. That is not the customers fault and that is why this story is going viral. If that is confusing to you then hopefully your profession doesn't include dealing with customers or running your own business.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 79, posted (5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8489 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 79): We're saying the same things - i.e. it was the failure of UA's initial response that has caused the problem - whether it's not having a CSA in OMA, or failing to adequately deal with the situation post OMA.
Well no, we're not saying the same things. I agree that part of the blame should be placed on the airline for not having a CSA at OMA when the customer arrived. The largest part of the blame however, I think should be placed on the customer for taking a whole week to inform the airline of the damage. If he had called them within the 24 hour period, it's quite possible that he would have been able to explain his situation, been given a reference number, which he then could have quoted to a CSA when he returned to OMA in a weeks time so they knew he had been contact with airline much earlier.
Given the circumstances I think the airline dealt appropriately with the situation post OMA, they had absolutely no way of knowing whether the damage to his guitar had in fact occured on his flight into OMA or during the subsequent tour around Nebraska.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 79): If that is confusing to you then hopefully your profession doesn't include dealing with customers or running your own business.
Personally I find that statement rather insulting, as it is because of my very extensive customer service experience working in youth hostels/ backpackers all over the world for the past 7 years that I find grounds to make my comments. I have dealt with literally thousands upon thousands of travellers face to face, most of whom are quite young and have never travelled before, so they are usually much more naive then they guy we've been discussing. I regularly deal with situations like this each and every day, in fact in my present job as a manager of an incredibly busy 700 bed hostel in London, dealing with these situations is pretty what takes up most of my time. I have applied the logic that I have learned through all those years of interactions with customers to this specific scenario. Granted I don't work in the aviation industry itself, and I'm not sure how I would actually handle the situation if it was up to me to decide, but I'm just giving my opinion from my point of view, and seeing that I do work in the travel industry, which the airline industry is a part of, I would say that my point of view is fairly valid.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 80, posted (5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8428 times:
Actually from reading the article yet a 3rd time it does clearly say that he did not attempt to find a CSA agent in OMA to make a claim for his damaged guitar, but only to complain that he had seen baggage handlers throwing his guitar in ORD. Just because they were throwing it around definitely does not mean that it was damaged as a result and I see no mention of the fact that anyone ever saw them actually drop it. It was only later, after he had taken his guitar back to the hotel and after he had been picked up by the tour organisers the next day, that he realized that his guitar was damaged.
"He tried to speak with three different United employees in Chicago to complain and was told to take it up with staff in Omaha. When he arrived in that city, it was late and no United employees were around, so he went with his band to the hotel and slept. Tour promoters picked them up early the next morning, so he didn’t check out the damage until later.
"At the first show, I opened up the case and there was my guitar smashed to smithereens on the bottom," Mr. Carroll said."
He clearly says that the first time he even looked at this guitar was by the time he played his first show in Nebraska, almost a whole day later and after he had probably driven across half the state, so there were plenty of other opportunities where his guitar could have been damaged well after he finished his travel with UA. He just assumed that it was damaged when the baggage handlers were throwing it, but unfortunately this is impossible to prove.
So basically the guy is travelling with a $3,500 guitar, has put it in a case thats not suitable for travelling, sees baggage handlers throwing it around in ORD which causes him great concern, so much so that he attempts to find a CSA to make a complaint to when he arrives in OMA and yet doesn't even inspect his guitar when he picks it up off the carousel to see if it was damaged, instead waiting a whole day later to do so !!!
I don't know, there's just something awfully strange about this whole story, maybe because I don't have all the correct facts in front of me, but regardless, it just doesn't seem right.
FlyDeltaJets87 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 4565 posts, RR: 25 Reply 81, posted (5 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8365 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 50):
No one is suggesting a bomb proof case. Merely a suitable TRAVEL case for when he TRAVELs. That is called packing your belongings responsibly. It is not excessive.
I'm sorry, but if I'm now paying $25 each way per bag, they better handle my bags with care.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71):
Is it reasonable to assume that everybody has the opportunity to do so? You don't know if he's busy the whole next day; you don't know if he's got to drive 200 miles to some other place the next day... If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
That I agree with.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): All that said, the airlines should know that nobody reads the terms in the contract of carriage. IF there is a possible issue, the airline should notify the pax ahead of time - say, hey, the way your guitar is packed, something may happen, and we aren't going to fix it.
This I do not. That's not the responsibility of the airline. When you purchase a ticket online, you have to check a box that says "I have read the Terms of Contract" or something to that effect. If the customer checks the box but hasn't really read the terms, that's the passenger's fault.
I guess this begs the question though - will United break my golf clubs next week going up to Alaska?
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 82, posted (5 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8306 times:
Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 69): Well when normal behaviour results in damage (to either the suitcase or its contents), then perhaps 'normal' needs to be reviewed...
This normal behavior doesn't cause damage to properly packed items. It only damages items that aren't properly packed like this guitar.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
1) I find it hard to believe no one was there there is always someone there until the last bag is on the belt (someone has to be there to put the bags on the belt) at a small airport they may be at the counter or behind the scenes somewhere as they play multiple roles but if you are even a tiny bit patient you can track them down very easily.
2) he left without checking it the guitar. So if he had no reason at the point he left the airport to belive the guitar was broken (if he had he would have checked it there) why would he have looked for an agent? He only would have needed an agent if he already knew there was a problem. He didn't until the next day. I don't believe for a second he ever looked for an agent.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 72): And how hard is it make one phone call, or maybe even a few??? There's absolutely no excuse on his part for not doing so !!!
Exactly.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 74): If you set some restriction on the customer, you have to give them a reasonable chance at fulfilling it. I think keeping the claims desk manned while flights are still coming in is part of that.
He did he never looked for an agent, he never tried calling while still at the airport. His claim there was no one there is a lie. See above.
The rule is fair you need to make an immediate claim. Other wise "OMG they are throwing guitars" or not he only has an assumption that the damage was done by UAL. His assumption doesn't make it so. He needs more than that for a claim he needs proof it was done while in UAL's care not at some point after he left. The only way to do that is to check it at the airport and notify someone ASAP.
What do you mean? Do you expect ramp supervisors to be present at all times with clip-boards in hand observing every single action by the ramp? Are you thinking the supervisors stepped away so the ramp decided, hey lets have some fun while the "boss" is gone?
Some things I find "fishy" with this story...
First of all, the woman that screamed may have been overracting after witnessing normal behavior. Most are jumping to the conclusion that they were recklessly throwing them as if they were playing some kind of sport with them. I have looked out terminal windows before and observed the ramp conducting normal business and heard passengers nearby talking sh*t about them because it looks to them like the ramp is being careless. The public just doesn't understand.
You put it in a padded gig bag, and then you put *that* into another case made of 1/8" steel and wood and protected by rubberized foam on all sides.
The other obvious way to know that he did not use a flight case is that the way he knew United was throwing it around was from other passengers saying "look, they're throwing guitars!" As you can see below, when a flight case is closed, most people are not going to have any inkling of what it is. I'm a guitarist and even I wouldn't be sure if this was a guitar or a set of photographic equipment, which ship in the exact same type of case.
Spacecadet is exactly right. The man described his guitar as being "smashed to smithereens." There is no way a guitar could be damaged to that extent if packed in a proper flight case. But there are many unintentional, accidental ways an accoustic guitar packed in a simple soft gig bag, which I see often, can be badly damaged. As a guitarist, I shake my head every time I see guitars packed like that.
But finally, the article mentions the guitar cost $1,200 for repairs. I don't think any guitar that has been damaged to the extent described by that comment can be repaired. If an instrument is broken to bits, it's pretty much totalled and the only thing to do at that point is replace it. But the fact that it was repaired tells me he embellished a bit when describing the damage. A small repair job can be an expensive repair job when a guitar costs $3,500 and cost also depends on what needs to be repaired. So the extent of the damage in my opinion is still debatable.
I will admit though that UA's customer service seems to have handled the situation poorly.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3258 posts, RR: 8 Reply 84, posted (5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8187 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 86): I will admit though that UA's customer service seems to have handled the situation poorly.
Understatement of the day!!
I will give the benefit of the doubt and say there is another side to this story that we are not hearing (UA's) but it does sound pretty bad. You can feel this guy's frustration.
I guess UA had two ways of looking at this situation now that it has blown up. They could ( a ) sue him for slander or ( b ) try and make better-late-than-never restitution and customer goodwill. I'd say they are in a pickle. If they went with a lawsuit, they better hope that he doesn't have proof of his runaround because he can sing all he wants if what happened actually happened. The defense against slander is truth... And with ( b ) I'm guessing its going to take a whole lot of money to settle with him now. If he can even be silenced. Honestly by coming out and addressing the issue head-on, I think UA have saved as much face as they can. Obviously it should not have happened.
I sure wouldn't want to be the UA Supervisor named in his song, a Ms. Irlweg.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 85, posted (5 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8106 times:
Since airlines love charging fees, I suggest a $15 "We'll be responsible for any damage to your guitar" fee. Actually, is it possible to buy insurance from the airline itself, or must you arrange it ahead of time?
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 82): That's not the responsibility of the airline. When you purchase a ticket online, you have to check a box that says "I have read the Terms of Contract" or something to that effect. If the customer checks the box but hasn't really read the terms, that's the passenger's fault.
Again, the goal of the airline is to be profitable, not to be legally correct in every dispute that comes up with the customer. If you can do something additional to prevent bigger problems later, that might be worthwhile for the bottom line. But that's for UAL to assess.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 84): 1) I find it hard to believe no one was there there is always someone there until the last bag is on the belt (someone has to be there to put the bags on the belt)
I'll buy that. Sadly, we have no idea how much effort Mr. Guitar Player put into finding a UA rep.
Wn700driver From United States, joined Aug 2001, 890 posts, RR: 8 Reply 87, posted (5 months 4 days ago) and read 8079 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 87):
I will give the benefit of the doubt and say there is another side to this story that we are not hearing (UA's) but it does sound pretty bad. You can feel this guy's frustration.
That's because they don't have a side. They destroyed property, for a fee no less, and botched a few opportunities to recover. Typical United. Anyway, they really can't sue him for slander. They don't have the facts on their side and they'll come out looking like hungry bullies.
And they screwed up any opportunities to settle the issue as well. This guy will make a lot more off the song than a company like UAL is capable of offering. If anything, he needs to see what he can do to litigate against them using his materiel for their training purposes. What a bunch of short sighted cretins. . .
Four billion years ago, the Earth was a ball of molten rock. Now, you can get the internet there.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 88, posted (5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7984 times:
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): They destroyed property, for a fee no less, and botched a few opportunities to recover. Typical United.
There is no way to prove that they did in fact destroy any property. Like I've said before in my above post, the damage to the guitar could very well have happened at any point between when the customer took it off the carousel at OMA and when he opened up the case the next day after travelling by road to the other side of Nebraska.
All this guy wants is for United to accept the blame and re-imburse him, even though it may have been him, another one of his band members or a roadie that actually broke the guitar.
It does appear he was given a bit of a run around by the airline when trying to make a claim much later, but as far as we know the majority of United employees that he spoke to could have been very helpful and friendly, but given the circumstances of the situation were simply unable to offer him any re-imbursement. This obviously wasn't the answer that he wanted to hear and therefore has chosen to demonize them all. I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but it's a possibility nonetheless.
This guy could very well be a total d**k but you wouldn't know this if you didn't meet him in person or at least spoke to him over the phone. There are plenty of customers out there who are in fact total asses and this guy could definitely be one of them !!! Should a company bend over backwards to people like this and offer compensation for something that might not even have been their fault in the first place. Definitely not !!!
Jolau1701 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7880 times:
Why assume UAX?
If it was any UAX aircraft except for the EMB170s, it would have been hard for him to see anything plane-side since the cargo pit is in the back unless he was exactly somewhere between rows 11 - 13 on the appropriate window side if he were on a CRJ200.
The only time he would have possibly seen the guitar is if he had it as a carry-on, and had to green-tagged and the ramp agents carried it to the back.
Also, if memory serves me right, UA's OMA operation is entirely Mainline UA too.
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3161 posts, RR: 4 Reply 90, posted (5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7857 times:
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): They destroyed property, for a fee no less, and botched a few opportunities to recover. Typical United.
uhem WN isn't much better.....there's a reason why I won't check a bag with them on any flight....Lets just say it involved crushing and my bag and trying to replace a $300 bag with a $50 one.... Stuff like this happens on every airline, remember when DL and AAs employees were caught stealing out customers luggage? Its a bigger deal on this message board then anywhere else and while UA could have probably handled it better quite frankly we don't know UAs side of the story much less the truth (which isn't going to be UAs or this guys story.)
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): Anyway, they really can't sue him for slander.
Anyone can sue anyone for anything isn't this country grand....
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): This guy will make a lot more off the song than a company like UAL is capable of offering.
No he won't, this isn't a song any record company is going to pick up and like I said earlier any offer from UA is more then likely going to include a clause that magically makes this song go away.
PlanesNTrains From United States, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 12 Reply 91, posted (5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7759 times:
Quoting United1 (Reply 93): Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90):
This guy will make a lot more off the song than a company like UAL is capable of offering.
No he won't, this isn't a song any record company is going to pick up and like I said earlier any offer from UA is more then likely going to include a clause that magically makes this song go away.
To be fair, I doubt anyone will choose to fly United specifically because of this incident, though a few might choose not to. But he doesn't need to sell a single copy of this song to come out ahead. While i was watching it on Youtube earlier today, my visiting mom heard him singing and now plans to buy a CD. So I think he will probably sell a few bucks worth just from the attention.
Iairallie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 92, posted (5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7727 times:
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): Anyway, they really can't sue him for slander. They don't have the facts on their side and they'll come out looking like hungry bullies.
Actually the facts are on United´s side because mr. Guitar chose not to report it before leaving the airport. The excuse that no one was available is BULL because He even admitted he didn't look at the guitar until more than 24 hours had passed which makes the availablity of the rep completely irrelevant. You don't need a rep if you don't have any damage to report and when he was at the airport he was unaware there was damage. I'll be really disapointed in United if they capitulate.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 93, posted (5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7538 times:
It appears that most of you completely fail to understand that the main story is not about United breaking the guitar, but about the saga that came afterwards - amongst other things, that everybody contacted tried to make him speak to someone else rather than addressing the issue, that apparently he was given parrot talk over the phone etc. etc. The fact that quite a few folks here do exactly the same nitpicking that United apparently did speaks volumes.
United is in the business of satisfying customers and not losing them to the competition. That should be the benchmark. And because of that, they should not throw around luggage in full view of passengers (regardless whether it is properly packed or not), they should have a CSA available upon arrival of flights (regardless whether or not the guy had had a look at his guitar at this point), they should not refuse to let someone speak to a supervisor (regardless whether the guy is a pin or not), they should not give someone call-center parrot talk, they should never hide behind stuff like "it has United on it, but it actually just a franchisee", they should train their employees to never ever say "I am not in charge" etc etc.
In short, they deserve every bit of flak they are getting now - not because they were wrong and the guy was right in the first place, but because how they handled the whole thing.
By the way, this video now has 1.25 million hits at YouTube.
And when I checked the hits at YouTube, the most recent comment was this: "Thanks, I was just getting to book a trip to Hawaii on United. We just booked it on Delta instead. "
And immediately below: "Hey United? I had a round-trip flight from San Diego to Winnipeg booked for August with you. Guess what? I just cancelled it and rebooked it with someone else. There's no way I'm giving you my money for treating these guys like this."
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 94, posted (5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7416 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): It appears that most of you completely fail to understand that the main story is not about United breaking the guitar, but about the saga that came afterwards
But thats funny, because the song is NOT entitled "United Has Bad Customer Service", but in fact it's called, "United Breaks Guitars". And as I and many other posters have already explained in amazing detail that there is no way to prove that they actually did break his guitar !!!
I think everyone on the face of this planet probably knows that United has bad customer service, in fact I think that everyone on the face of this planet knows that every big corporation has bad customer service and will give you the run around if you try to file a complaint like this. When I tried to book a frequent flyer trip with UA using my MileagePlus miles, it was a complete a mess, but in my dealing with any other large corporation recently, banks etc, I can't really say that the experience was all that different.
Do you think that if his song was entitled "United Has Bad Customer Service" that it would have created anywhere near as much of a stir as it did ??? Of course not !!! So he decided to go with the much more sensationalist title "United Breaks Guitars" even though he might know very well himself that it could have been him that broke it and not the airline. And let's think about it, that title is completely incorrect anyway, and is saying that United breaks many guitars when it fact he is actually claiming that they only broke one guitar, his. So shouldn't the title be "United Broke My Guitar" and not "United Breaks Guitars" !!!Sensationalist indeed !!!
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): And when I checked the hits at YouTube, the most recent comment was this: "Thanks, I was just getting to book a trip to Hawaii on United. We just booked it on Delta instead. "
And immediately below: "Hey United? I had a round-trip flight from San Diego to Winnipeg booked for August with you. Guess what? I just cancelled it and rebooked it with someone else. There's no way I'm giving you my money for treating these guys like this."
Like I've already said before, of course this is going to have a negative effect on the airline, but this is what major corporations have to deal with all them time and I'm sure they'll survive it. When you're an airline there are MUCH worse things that can happen, at least this incident didn't involve a plane crash with numerous fatalities that could have been blamed entirely on the negligence of the airline. Now something like that would really deter people from flying United !!!
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): they should not throw around luggage in full view of passengers
Many other posters have already said that the baggage handlers might not have been doing anything out of the ordinary with the bags, and it was just passengers freaking out and grossly exaggerating the situaion. At the end of the day, none of us were there, so we really can't say for sure what was going on and can't come to any conclusions based on what little information we know.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): they should have a CSA available upon arrival of flights
Once again, other posters believe that he is outright lieing when he says that there were not CSA agents when he arrived in OMA. We have no idea whether he even did attempt to find one.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): they should not give someone call-center parrot talk
Every major airline, corporation etc gives the call-centre parrot talk, what major company these days does not use call-centres ???
Arrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2126 posts, RR: 2 Reply 95, posted (5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7400 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW ARTICLE EDITOR
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man. You know their are laywers out there that would make that argument.
That will help. The story is already a runaway success. If United sues for slander, how many other disgruntled United passengers will suddenly start phoning reporters to tell them their horror stories, and how long before it turns into a soap opera. If United's lawyers recommend a libel/slander suit, United had better fire the lawyers.
Quoting 777fan (Reply 33): If you want to get all "legalese", UA owes him nothing.
Yes -- legally correct, and politically stupid. Reporters love big multi-billion dollar companies that stand on their legal principles to beat-off members of a country & western band from a little town called Halifax.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): I think UAL would be stupid to pay him anything at this point.
Stupid is definitely the appropriate word.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): It appears that most of you completely fail to understand that the main story is not about United breaking the guitar, but about the saga that came afterwards - amongst other things, that everybody contacted tried to make him speak to someone else rather than addressing the issue, that apparently he was given parrot talk over the phone etc. etc. The fact that quite a few folks here do exactly the same nitpicking that United apparently did speaks volumes.
Someone in United should have recognized right away that this guy had the power to do them some real damage. Big corporations often underestimate the willingness of ordinary people who have been treated badly to get even. You'd think their PR people would instantly recognize the potential for a P.1 story out of this. This video will be played over and over again, and it appears United has already lost some business because of it.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 96, posted (5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7355 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 97): But thats funny, because the song is NOT entitled "United Has Bad Customer Service", but in fact it's called, "United Breaks Guitars". And as I and many other posters have already explained in amazing detail that there is no way to prove that they actually did break his guitar !!!
The story that United broke a guitar is non-news. What makes the story interesting is what happened AFTER United broke the guitar. If United had just broken this guitar, we would not be listening to this song.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 97): Many other posters have already said that the baggage handlers might not have been doing anything out of the ordinary with the bags, and it was just passengers freaking out and grossly exaggerating the situaion.
Those who are freaking out are those who are paying the baggage handlers' lunch day in and day out. That is the point. It is not about whether or not the passenger are right to freak out. A passengers does not want to see his luggage being hurled around on the apron. United Airlines is in the business of meeting customer expectations because if they do not, they will not have customers in the long run. If the customer feels uncomfortable seeing his stuff being hurled around, that is a problem for an airline. Never complain about your customers feelings.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 97): Like I've already said before, of course this is going to have a negative effect on the airline, but this is what major corporations have to deal with all them time and I'm sure they'll survive it. When you're an airline there are MUCH worse things that can happen
Well, the story is already being discussed in some marketing blogs. And there appears to be a concensus that the story is not just an ordinary problem. It will of course not bring United down, but it should not be underestimated because - unlike an airplane crash that happens to every airline once in a while - it is a unique story that will be easily remembered by many and always linked to United.
Don't get me wrong - I am actually working in legal services and I earn part of my money from throwing unjustified claims out. But I always tell the folks that sometimes you can win in court - and at the same time loose ten times as much just because of that. Often it is not about being right, but about doing the right thing. A big difference.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 97, posted (5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7302 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 99): If United had just broken this guitar, we would not be listening to this song.
But if he had entitled his song "United Has Bad Customer Service", then we wouldn't be listening to it either. The point I'm trying to make is that the only reason this song has received any attention whatsoever is because he gave it an incorrect and more sensationalist title, based on something that might not have even happened.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 99): And if the customer feels uncomfortable seeing his stuff being hurled around, that is a problem for an airline.
Well if the way that the baggage handlers were dealing with the luggage was in fact normal and what happens at every other airline, then in this case it was just United's bad luck that a passenger on their flight freaked out !!!
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 99): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 97):
Every major airline, corporation etc gives the call-centre parrot talk, what major company these days does not use call-centres
You mean like others are speeding, so do I? Or: My colleague is rude, so I am entitlted to be rude as well.
No, I said this in response to your comment which stated that people are posting on You Tube saying that they will now fly other airlines instead. If this exact same situation had happened with any of the other airlines that people are now choosing to fly instead of United, how do you know that the outcome wouldn't be any different and that their customer service wouldn't be just as bad ??? People are saying that they have now booked their trip on Delta, and for all I know, their customer service could be just as bad or even worse than at United and that anyone filing a complaint with Delta could encounter the exact same call-centre parrot talk.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12189 posts, RR: 22 Reply 98, posted (5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7329 times:
United's official response this morning:
Online Video Strikes a Chord With Us
In the Internet era, our customers continue to find creative ways of reaching us with their feedback. This week was no different, as a wave of media outlets and online publications linked to a disserviced guest's online video and picked up the story -- and we're still feeling the reverb.
Canadian musician Dave Carroll filed a claim with us when he discovered damage to his guitar after he flew from Halifax through Chicago to his gig in Nebraska. When he attempted to file a claim with us after nearly a month had elapsed, our employees merely followed existing company policy on settling claims.
"Many of our guidelines are in place to protect against improper claims. Based on the lengths to which this guest went, we understand he sincerely believes we were at fault," says Barbara Higgins, VP-Worldwide Contact Centers. "We have been in contact with the guest to apologize and continue to have conversations about making things right. This video provides us with a unique learning opportunity to consider ways to be more empathetic to our guests."
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 99, posted (5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7291 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 100): People are saying that they have now booked their trip on Delta, and for all I know, their customer service could be just as bad or even worse than at United and that anyone filing a complaint with Delta could encounter the exact same call-centre parrot talk.
The problem is that United is now losing customers because not those customers, but someone else has been given - among other things - parrot talk. Usually you lose customers because you treat them bad, not someone else. But in this case, we have a single person serving as a catalyst. And that is worrying. Not only the guy in question, but also other people are now out of the United system and it will take quite a lot of screwing up by the competition before they will be back with United. Public perception is now that United is particularly bad / worse than the others. And again - it does not matter if it is true or justified.
By the way, I deleted the section you quoted because having second thoughts about it I thought that my analogy was not too fitting
PlanesNTrains From United States, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 12 Reply 101, posted (5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7281 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 97): But thats funny, because the song is NOT entitled "United Has Bad Customer Service", but in fact it's called, "United Breaks Guitars". And as I and many other posters have already explained in amazing detail that there is no way to prove that they actually did break his guitar !!!
I think everyone on the face of this planet probably knows that United has bad customer service, in fact I think that everyone on the face of this planet knows that every big corporation has bad customer service and will give you the run around if you try to file a complaint like this. When I tried to book a frequent flyer trip with UA using my MileagePlus miles, it was a complete a mess, but in my dealing with any other large corporation recently, banks etc, I can't really say that the experience was all that different.
Do you think that if his song was entitled "United Has Bad Customer Service" that it would have created anywhere near as much of a stir as it did ??? Of course not !!! So he decided to go with the much more sensationalist title "United Breaks Guitars" even though he might know very well himself that it could have been him that broke it and not the airline. And let's think about it, that title is completely incorrect anyway, and is saying that United breaks many guitars when it fact he is actually claiming that they only broke one guitar, his. So shouldn't the title be "United Broke My Guitar" and not "United Breaks Guitars" !!!Sensationalist indeed !!!
1. IMHO, it doesn't matter what United did at this point, they need to handle it and make it go away. You aren't going to be able to convince many people that this fellow from Halifax, with his big smile and catchy tune, is somehow to blame for all of this. A guy I worked for (business owner) told me once "If you're going to lose, then lose early and lose gracefully".
2. Regardless of what MAY have happened, his story seems believable. No offense to rampers, but it's almost a cliche isn't it? Thowing bags. Broken luggage. Etc. Certainly most luggage arrives fine, but come on - it's believable.
3. I think there's a kneejerk reaction to blame the customer sometimes on these boards. You're right - we weren't there. But if you choose to believe that this professional musician damaged his own property on the way to a show, then chose to blame United instead, and then made up a story about all of his phone calls, then absent a resolution went to the trouble to write song and make videos about it - well, I think sometimes we can't see the forest for the tress.
4. "Guitar vs Guitars"? "Guitars vs Customer Service"? I think you're grasping at straws here, and I'm not sure what you expect to gain. He wrote a catchy song - that's what he does. If he had been a lawyer, he wouldn't be on Youtube, he'd be filing a lawsuit.
This guy may be pushing buttons, but he seems to me to be believable. United's (and all airline's) systems work when everything lines up, but in those minority of situations where something hits the fan, everyone runs for cover. The victim is left to deal with things on in the way they see fit, and that is going to vary by individual - it shouldn't vary at the airline. If someone receives a complaint, there shouldn't be 10 different options of what to tell someone to do. But that's what happens at very large companies and it's not the passengers fault.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 102, posted (5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7218 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 97):
But thats funny, because the song is NOT entitled "United Has Bad Customer Service", but in fact it's called, "United Breaks Guitars". And as I and many other posters have already explained in amazing detail that there is no way to prove that they actually did break his guitar !!!
Dude, it's a song, not a police report or a Supreme Court decision. Sure, he might have taken a hammer to his own guitar for all we know. He could have been hired by Delta to write a song about a completely fictional circumstance. You can come up with any sort of theory you want, but based on the song and the articles, the likeliest and most reasonable explanation for the broken guitar is that they were SEEN being thrown around by the baggage handlers. Even United isn't disputing that.
I'm sure you needed to bracket that with all six of those exclamation points as well
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 99):
Don't get me wrong - I am actually working in legal services and I earn part of my money from throwing unjustified claims out. But I always tell the folks that sometimes you can win in court - and at the same time loose ten times as much just because of that. Often it is not about being right, but about doing the right thing. A big difference.
Yep. Look, as consumers, in almost every major transaction we make with a large corporation, from software license agreements, to credit card and banking agreements, to insurance, to medications, to airline tickets... we are given and usually forced to sign off on a lengthy set of disclaimers and other legal language, designed by the highly skilled and well-paid attorneys hired by the corporation for the sole purpose of inoculating that corporation from having any real legal ramifications whatsoever for failures of their product. Nobody, that's right, NOBODY (don't even try to claim otherwise) in their right mind reads and fully remembers every single word of all the legalese that we are inundated with in our daily lives. I try to at least skim most of it just to make sure there's nothing ridiculous or completely unacceptable, and if it is a very important and high-value financial transaction, I will do my best to read and understand all of it. But for the average person, I think most of it is unintelligible or hard to comprehend in the first place, and besides, it is *designed* to be difficult and inaccessible, which is why it's typically so long and so tiny and buried within the transaction. So I think most people, even though they shouldn't, typically just sign off on it and trust (or hope) that everything will go smoothly. Now, I'm not saying that it's good that people don't read the fine print, but look - If the company is the one MAKING the rules, then they're the ones who should use some fairness and discretion in applying them.
Now, I understand that companies want to protect themselves, but the basic idea behind the transaction is that they are providing a product or service to you and you are paying them for it. This fellow evidently paid United to safely transport him and his property to Omaha. It seems they failed to safely transport his property, and he wants compensation. Clearly he didn't ask for it within 24 hours, precisely the way prescribed by United's legalese, so the airline decided it wanted to use the letter of the contract to get out of paying him. That's their prerogative, but it's poor customer service (not to mention the yearlong runaround on the phone that the song describes), and this guy is totally, 100% within his rights to make songs and videos to embarrass them for it.
Wn700driver From United States, joined Aug 2001, 890 posts, RR: 8 Reply 103, posted (5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7151 times:
Quoting United1 (Reply 93): uhem WN isn't much better.....there's a reason why I won't check a bag with them on any flight....Lets just say it involved crushing and my bag and trying to replace a $300 bag with a $50 one.... Stuff like this happens on every airline, remember when DL and AAs employees were caught stealing out customers luggage? Its a bigger deal on this message board then anywhere else and while UA could have probably handled it better quite frankly we don't know UAs side of the story much less the truth (which isn't going to be UAs or this guys story.)
Fair enough. The name reffers to a type of tool, not an LCC with a case of personality cultism. . . But I understand the confusion.
Quoting United1 (Reply 93): No he won't, this isn't a song any record company is going to pick up and like I said earlier any offer from UA is more then likely going to include a clause that magically makes this song go away.
Yes, he will. He may never see a dime from the song. But it is catchy, slams a company few have any love for, and will bring attn to his other work. Kind of like how GM sells Corvettes below cost to get people hot for Chevs, that sort of thing.
Four billion years ago, the Earth was a ball of molten rock. Now, you can get the internet there.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 104, posted (5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7135 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 102): The problem is that United is now losing customers because not those customers, but someone else has been given - among other things - parrot talk. Usually you lose customers because you treat them bad, not someone else. But in this case, we have a single person serving as a catalyst. And that is worrying. Not only the guy in question, but also other people are now out of the United system and it will take quite a lot of screwing up by the competition before they will be back with United. Public perception is now that United is particularly bad / worse than the others. And again - it does not matter if it is true or justified.
I definitely agree with this, whether its United's fault or not, it looks like they will definitely have to suffer for it to some extent.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): Regardless of what MAY have happened, his story seems believable. No offense to rampers, but it's almost a cliche isn't it? Thowing bags. Broken luggage. Etc. Certainly most luggage arrives fine, but come on - it's believable.
It's not just about being beleivable, its about whether it can actually be proven that A) the baggage handlers were in fact handling the luggage improperly, B) if they were in fact handling the luggage improperly, is this what caused the damage and C) whether United even caused the damage at all.
From United's point of view, and given the specific scenario that occured, they nor the customer can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that United did in fact break the guitar. Do you think United must pay for something that they might not have done ???
From Mr. Joe Public's point of view, yes, I must admit that the story is very believeable, I have no doubt about that. But Mr. Joe Public does not work in the airline industry and does not deal with situations like this on a daily basis. However, it is Mr. Joe Public that pays the money that keeps the airline flying, so the fact that he is going to believe Mr. Carrols story even though United won't, is definitely going to be a problem for the airline, no doubt.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): But if you choose to believe that this professional musician damaged his own property on the way to a show, then chose to blame United instead, and then made up a story about all of his phone calls, then absent a resolution went to the trouble to write song and make videos about it
There is a possibility that this is exactly what happened, a very small one of course, but there are indeed some crazy people out there.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): Guitar vs Guitars"? "Guitars vs Customer Service"? I think you're grasping at straws here
Well I was basing that comment on what someone else said and it looks odd out of context, I'm not going to go re-explain myself now, it would just gets too complicated.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 105): Dude, it's a song, not a police report or a Supreme Court decision
Wow, thats the understatement of the day, as it so happens that all of us are discussing with such fervour the impressive impact that this "song" has. There have been many songs throughout history that have been far more influential or changed the world much more than any police report or Supreme Court Decision. And the fact that there is a video attached to it makes a huge difference. Could this song have recieved anywhere near the exposure it has if this had happened only 5 years ago, before YouTube was all the rage? Of course not !!!
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 105, posted (5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7051 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 107): Wow, thats the understatement of the day, as it so happens that all of us are discussing with such fervour the impressive impact that this "song" has. There have been many songs throughout history that have been far more influential or changed the world much more than any police report or Supreme Court Decision. And the fact that there is a video attached to it makes a huge difference. Could this song have recieved anywhere near the exposure it has if this had happened only 5 years ago, before YouTube was all the rage? Of course not !!!
Well, you were quibbling with the facts and evidence presented in the song, and saying that since he couldn't "prove" that UA broke his guitar, he was being somehow sensationalist. But when it comes to the song, it doesn't really matter what is provable or not. The bottom line is, he feels that United wronged him, and so this is his way of going public with his complaint. The song is his way of telling his side of the story, and he's totally within his rights to do that, no less than United were technically within their rights to decline compensation in the first place. Yeah, it wouldn't have received this kind of exposure in the pre-youtube era, but maybe that just means companies should be more thoughtful about how they enforce the rules that they impose on their customers, in case an incident like this goes viral.
Silver1SWA From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2903 posts, RR: 21 Reply 106, posted (5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7009 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): 2. Regardless of what MAY have happened, his story seems believable. No offense to rampers, but it's almost a cliche isn't it? Thowing bags. Broken luggage. Etc. Certainly most luggage arrives fine, but come on - it's believable.
Of course it's believable. All sensational stories are! That's the idea, grab the public's attention.
And the fact that "throwing" bags can be considered a cliche says a lot. What is in fact normal handling seems like "throwing" to some people that don't really understand, and that's why the words "throwing bags" have been linked to baggage handlers. I have NEVER seen anyone on the ramp actually throw a bag in the careless manner portrayed in this man's video.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): I think there's a kneejerk reaction to blame the customer sometimes on these boards. You're right - we weren't there. But if you choose to believe that this professional musician damaged his own property on the way to a show, then chose to blame United instead, and then made up a story about all of his phone calls, then absent a resolution went to the trouble to write song and make videos about it - well, I think sometimes we can't see the forest for the tress.
Well, he's now in the spotlight... What musician doesn't want that? People now know who this musician is. Whatever get's yourself out there and known, right?
But with that said, I personally do not believe he broke the guitar himself. It is very possible, especially if not properly packed, that the guitar did break while in UA's hands. But that does not mean it was a result of reckless shenanigans on the ramp. Items do get damaged every day on accident! A checked bags journey is often a rough one. It's a harsh environment and stuff happens.
What does bother me about the story is, if this guy did see reckless handling of his precious guitars, why did he not check the condition of his guitar immediately upon arrival?! If I saw something of mine handled poorly and I was concerned about the condition of my belongings as a result, the very first thing I will be doing upon arrival is inspecting my belongings. This guy waited til he got to his gig before looking for damage?! And then, in United's statement released today they said he waited nearly a month before taking action and making a claim?
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 105): You can come up with any sort of theory you want, but based on the song and the articles, the likeliest and most reasonable explanation for the broken guitar is that they were SEEN being thrown around by the baggage handlers. Even United isn't disputing that.
A passenger's interpretation of what they saw and what was actually taking place could be two very different things.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 107, posted (5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6944 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 109): A passenger's interpretation of what they saw and what was actually taking place could be two very different things.
Which is totally irrelevant as we are not talking about proving something in a court of law, but about customer service. For example, this "report within 24 hours stuff" is a rule set up by United, it is not an amendment to the constitution. If you are customer focused, you do not apply self-made rules like a robot, but will ask yourself whether it makes more sense to keep a customer happy.
And if you really want to take a legal approach, it would also be helpful to make your mind up whether a self-made rule can actually safeguard you against any liability for damage that can be proven. I would be interested to know if there is case law on that.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 108, posted (5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6909 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 108): Well, you were quibbling with the facts and evidence presented in the song, and saying that since he couldn't "prove" that UA broke his guitar, he was being somehow sensationalist
Well the whole reason I even brought up the name of the song was to respond to this statement . . .
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): It appears that most of you completely fail to understand that the main story is not about United breaking the guitar, but about the saga that came afterwards
So I said in my response . . . that if this was the case, then why did he even put the word "guitar" in the title ???
What is happening is that people are taking out of context responses I have made to specific comments made by other posters and everything is just going around in circles and isn't making much sense anymore !!!
Regardless . . . even though I know it's just a title of a stupid song on YouTube thats causing a whole lot of fuss, I still have a major problem with the fact that he called it "United Breaks Guitars", when at the very, very most he is saying that United only broke his guitar, so the title really should have been "United Broke My Guitar". It's just little insignificant things like this, that when combined with other little insignificant things, tend to make me believe that there is something very strange with his whole argument.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 108): maybe that just means companies should be more thoughtful about how they enforce the rules that they impose on their customers, in case an incident like this goes viral.
Well yes and no, I'm sure a lot of companies are going to realize that in this information era, that they are going to deal with these issues a lot more than before, but it doesn't mean that they will instantly start backing down to the customer as a result. It's kind of like how Paris Hilton had to deal with the consequences of having her sex tape widely distributed on the internet, but it doesn't mean she's never going to have sex again, because it is quite possible the next guy she shags could have a hidden camera in the corner and it could be all over the internet the next day !!!
Lufti5525 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0 Reply 109, posted (5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6847 times:
I fly to asia twice a year. When I started I flew UA. When I had a question, I emailed them three times. No Answer. I wrote them. No answer. I am/was a FF with them. There are
so many alternatives to asia. They should look at there competition and adjust or they will fail.
Crewchief From United States, joined May 2007, 178 posts, RR: 2 Reply 111, posted (5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6813 times:
I'm completely bewildered by most comments on this thread. The video doesn't have 1.4 million views (and counting) because people think United broke a guitar. This song is a protest song against poor customer service. Want proof? Read the comments on the many web sites that carry or link to the video.
1.4 million views with almost 16,000 ratings, and 4 star rating overall. In only three days.
This song has struck a chord. If you think it's about guitars and liability and rampers, you're just not getting it. I doubt the viewers are all people who travel with guitars -- but they are people who travel or know others who travel. The empathy they feel with the song is because of their travel experiences.
Rant on about whether or not the guitar was packed correctely, should have been carried on board, was actually damaged by United, etc. etc. That doesn't matter one bit to the 1.4 million viewers. They don't care. Once again -- the empathy they feel is based on their travel experiences in general, and for many experiences with United in particular.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 112, posted (5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6771 times:
Quoting Crewchief (Reply 114): Rant on about whether or not the guitar was packed correctely, should have been carried on board, was actually damaged by United, etc. etc. That doesn't matter one bit to the 1.4 million viewers. They don't care.
Well, seeing that I've clinked on his video 3 times myself, I therefor make up 3 out of those 1.4. million viewers. And it does matter to me that his guitar wasn't packed correctly, should have been carried on board or was actually damaged by United etc etc. Yes I do care, because to me, and this is my very own personal opinion by the way, this guy looks like a total d**k !!!
In no way will watching this video ever effect me buying a ticket on United in future. Maybe if I was planning on checking in a $3,500 guitar in the baggage hold in an unsuitable guitar case it would, but I would never do anything as retarded as that even if my life depended on it !!!
And I bet most of the people who clicked on the video watched the first 5 seconds of it, realized it sucked and then watched something else, just like I did the first time I clicked on it !!!
Silver1SWA From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2903 posts, RR: 21 Reply 113, posted (5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6753 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 110): Which is totally irrelevant as we are not talking about proving something in a court of law, but about customer service. For example, this "report within 24 hours stuff" is a rule set up by United, it is not an amendment to the constitution. If you are customer focused, you do not apply self-made rules like a robot, but will ask yourself whether it makes more sense to keep a customer happy.
My comment was completely relevant to the post I was quoting!
I'm not trying to legally prove anything. I'm just giving a rampers opinion on the matter. I already stated in a previous post above that United handled it poorly. The issue IS with their customer service and the response in this situation. Many were quick to condemn the rampers for behaving recklessly, which may or may not have been the case. My repsonses were focused towards those quick to judge.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Amongst other things, he says that he is not after any money and that United should give the money they now want to pay him as compensation to charity.
In the clip, he also reveals that the second song takes a "microcosm" approach and gives a lighthearted description of the interaction between him and the UA employee with whom he had the most contact, Ms. Irlweg.
In the statement, he also defends this lady and says she is getting more flak at the moment than she deserves - and that from an employer's perspective, she was a great employee. A noble gesture, I must say.
A really nice guy.
And the comments on youtube continue - random picksof posts made within a copule of minutes (!):
"I was about to purchase a $600 pair of tickets on United to Cancun. I switched to US Air. It cost me $20 more but it was worth it to keep the $ away from United."
"Hey, United, good job. You just lost my business"
"I never fly United anyway, but now I KNOW that I NEVER WILL. "
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3258 posts, RR: 8 Reply 115, posted (5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6717 times:
Quoting Crewchief (Reply 114): I'm completely bewildered by most comments on this thread. The video doesn't have 1.4 million views (and counting) because people think United broke a guitar. This song is a protest song against poor customer service. Want proof? Read the comments on the many web sites that carry or link to the video.
Nail on the head. You and several other people on here get it, but some posters are apparently bent out of shape about the guitar being broken.
Of course we don't know what really happened, none of us were there. The fact is that this guy is believeable and apparently received the run-around from an airline. That's not hard to believe either. So he made it into a catchy song and video - kudos to this guy, I say. I doubt he set out to make a song about poor airline service, but as others have said, he used the biggest weapon he had in his arsenal. His creativity.
He says on his website that he wanted to have a million YouTube hits within a year after his videos were out there. It took just three days after his first song/video to hit that mark. My guess is that this will be five million soon. He doesn't need a second video, the damage has already been done. Ironically, there is a good chance that he got far more publicity and notoriety from this song than he ever would have just being a musician for a band nobody has much heard of. Even if he doesn't get a dime from selling his song to the public, he'll probably get a nice penny from United with a clause for not releasing songs/videos #2 and #3.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 115): Yes I do care, because to me, and this is my very own personal opinion by the way, this guy looks like a total d**k !!!
I think you'd be in the minority there, Mr. United. The song and video are hokey enough (albeit catchy) that he looks genuine and legit. He names one agent by name - wow - would he have done that if there wasn't some meat to his claim? I don't know but I think most people I know have seen this and thought it was United that came out looking pretty silly.
In United's defense, "purchasing" the song for a training video is a lovely spin on 'making the damn thing go away'! I'd love to know how much the inevitable settlement is for but my guess is that it will be kept private.
Enginebird From United States, joined May 2007, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 117, posted (5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6672 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 118): In United's defense, "purchasing" the song for a training video is a lovely spin on 'making the damn thing go away'! I'd love to know how much the inevitable settlement is for but my guess is that it will be kept private.
The only problem there is that the song will never go away, no matter how much UA pays for it. This is the digital age and once it's out there it's out there. The video can be copied a million times in a split second without affecting the quality. If Dave takes it off YouTube someone else will put it back there within minutes. Nobody can make it go away again, not even the creator of the video himself!
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 118, posted (5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6656 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 118): I think you'd be in the minority there, Mr. United.
Once again, I was responding to a comment made by another poster saying that every single one of the 1.4 million people who had clicked on the video actually believed this guy. I never said I was in the majority, in fact I said I accounted for 3 out of the 1.4 million clicks, to me that infers a very, very large minority.
And no, I am not at all a supporter of United or any other airline for that matter, but someone who is looking at this whole situation with a bit of common sense and logic and coming to my own conclusions as a result.
And I have looked at the CBS interview and, wow, I just have to say that I think this guy really is full of s**t,
A woman behind me looked out the window and she cried out "oh my god" they're throwing guitars outside and my bass player looked out the window to see his bass guitar thrown through the air and mine was thrown before that and ultimately it was damaged
What ?!?!? Can anyone else see how crazy this statement is ??? No one ever even saw his guitar being thrown, its true that the woman who cried out said she saw "a" guitar being thrown but how does he know it was his, only his bass player saw his bass being thrown, and that was not at all damaged.
And then he goes on to say . . .
It's a $3,500 guitar, its not so much about the money, its about the sentimental value, it's a beautiful instrument Ive had it for over 10 years, played it on all the Sons of Maxwells 8 recordings and my own solo release and some of the songs I'm most proud of I wrote on it.
So then why bring such a sentimental guitar on the road with you, it belongs at home, where it's safe. And if you do bring such a sentimental guitar with you, then put it in a proper flight case.
Look I know this guy wrote a very catchy song about the whole supposed incident, that he probably was given a very big run around by United's customer service departments, and that United is going to cop some serious flack over it whether they were responsible or not, that millions of people everywhere are going to watch this video just because they are sick of the bad customer service they recieve from various airlines, United being one of them, and that many of them will choose never to fly with United again as a result of watching it, and I am definitely not disagreeing with any of that.
But none of that, and I mean absolutely none of that has anything to do with the fact that there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that United did in fact break his guitar or that anyone with any common sense would ever travel with something as expensive or sentimental as this guitar and if they did, that they would at least put it in the proper flight case, or drive !!! And those . . are the points that I am trying to make !!!
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 119, posted (5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6605 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 121): What ?!?!? Can anyone else see how crazy this statement is ???
Nope, it makes perfect sense to me.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 121): No one ever even saw his guitar being thrown, its true that the woman who cried out said she saw "a" guitar being thrown but how does he know it was his,
Seeing as how they were arriving into ORD, and not departing, his guitar would likely have been sitting on the baggage cart in plain sight. Or maybe the lady described it for him.
Though, who knows, maybe this flight was chock full of "idiotic" guitarists (your term) who brought their guitars and didn't use flight cases, and it was one of theirs that the lady saw, which happened to be loaded right next to his bass player's guitar case
Why are you so determined to discredit this guy's story?
Most no-name musicians can't afford 10 guitars that they can choose from when they go on tour. In fact, most probably have their main guitar and a backup in case something goes wrong, and that's it.
N104UA From United States, joined Dec 2007, 807 posts, RR: 0 Reply 120, posted (5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6592 times:
I finally saw this video and even though I understand that he is upset, he should not portray ramp agents in that manner, many of my friends and family members are ramp agents for United and I do not believe that they were physically throwing his guitar anymore than they should throw a bag, and if the guitar case was not strong enough to allow something to happen with it it should have been carried on an checked another piece of luggage. I really wish he would not have acted like the agents were playing catch with it because of all of the pressure put on them by management for ontime departures they were doing what is needed to get the plane out on time.
"Forget regret or life is yours to miss...no other road no other way no day but today"
F35 From United States, joined Dec 2008, 35 posts, RR: 0 Reply 121, posted (5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6584 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 115): Well, seeing that I've clinked on his video 3 times myself, I therefor make up 3 out of those 1.4. million viewers.
YouTube doesn't count multiple views by an individual user, they count views by how many different users, computers have watched their videos. You can watch a video from your computer 1 million times, but it will only be counted once. However if you somehow find 1 million computers to watch the video from, it will be counted as 1 million views.
KBOS From United States, joined Nov 2003, 374 posts, RR: 0 Reply 122, posted (5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6580 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 101): United's official response this morning:
Online Video Strikes a Chord With Us
In the Internet era, our customers continue to find creative ways of reaching us with their feedback. This week was no different, as a wave of media outlets and online publications linked to a disserviced guest's online video and picked up the story -- and we're still feeling the reverb.
Canadian musician Dave Carroll filed a claim with us when he discovered damage to his guitar after he flew from Halifax through Chicago to his gig in Nebraska. When he attempted to file a claim with us after nearly a month had elapsed, our employees merely followed existing company policy on settling claims.
"Many of our guidelines are in place to protect against improper claims. Based on the lengths to which this guest went, we understand he sincerely believes we were at fault," says Barbara Higgins, VP-Worldwide Contact Centers. "We have been in contact with the guest to apologize and continue to have conversations about making things right. This video provides us with a unique learning opportunity to consider ways to be more empathetic to our guests."
As a person who loves to fly United (Ch 9), I think they did an excellent job with this explanation. Pitty this will get nowhere near the exposure that catchy tune did.
Take this plane anywhere girls are going wild......
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 123, posted (5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6570 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 122): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 121):
No one ever even saw his guitar being thrown, its true that the woman who cried out said she saw "a" guitar being thrown but how does he know it was his,
Seeing as how they were arriving into ORD, and not departing, his guitar would likely have been sitting on the baggage cart in plain sight. Or maybe the lady described it for him.
Lets go back to what I said in my last post, where I said there is no conclusive evidence that United broke his guitar and that that this was the main point that I was trying to make. Some woman told him that she saw his guitar being thrown, who he probably doesn't even know the name of, or even have her contact details so he can get her to verify to someone, be it a United official or a judge in a court of law, that she did in fact see his guitar being thrown. Saying that someone told you that they saw your guitar being thrown does not make it an eyewitness account. If this was taken to court and they could track her down so she could provide her eyewitness statement and it could be ascertained that she did in fact see his guitar being thrown, then that's another story, but that's yet to be seen. But even then, there's no proof that this is what actually caused the damage. His other guitar, his bass players bass and whatever instruments that his band were travelling with that day were not damaged even though they were all supposedly thrown as well.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 122): Why are you so determined to discredit this guy's story?
Why are you so determined to believe that his guitar was broken when the handlers supposedly threw it ??? All it is anyway is a "story", are we supposed to believe every story that we hear, oh no , but wait, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Goldilocks and Little Red Riding Hood all actually happened !!!
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 122): Most no-name musicians can't afford 10 guitars that they can choose from when they go on tour. In fact, most probably have their main guitar and a backup in case something goes wrong, and that's it.
If you can afford a $3,500 guitar then I'm sure you can afford a decent enough $200 - $500 to bring on the road with you.
Can someone with some real legal expertise please give their opinion as to what would happen if he tried to sue United for damages based on what limited facts have been made evident in this thread. I am guessing that he wouldn't be succesful, but then again I'm not a lawyer so I can only assume. Now I am definitely not saying that just because his claim would be denied in a court of law that he couldn't take the matter into his own hands and create an almighty ruckus with the general public and give United a very bad reputation by making a video for YouTube, because he has already obvioulsy done this quite succesfully.
Look if he took the matter to court and won, then I would absolutely eat my shorts, but that hasn't happened, and probably never will for that matter !!!
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 124, posted (5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6551 times:
Quoting F35 (Reply 124): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 115):
Well, seeing that I've clinked on his video 3 times myself, I therefor make up 3 out of those 1.4. million viewers.
YouTube doesn't count multiple views by an individual user, they count views by how many different users, computers have watched their videos. You can watch a video from your computer 1 million times, but it will only be counted once. However if you somehow find 1 million computers to watch the video from, it will be counted as 1 million views.
OK, so I stand corrected, I therefor make up only 1 out of those 1.4 million viewers !!!!
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 125, posted (5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6459 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 99): A passengers does not want to see his luggage being hurled around on the apron.
A passenger also does not want to arrive to their destination without a bag because it missconnected because the rampers were slow in offloading/loading it. A passenger also does not want to have a minimum of 2 hours connection time so that every bag can be gingerly placed in the cart and hold. A passenger does not want to pay tripple their ticket cost to cover other passengers broken guitars that weren't packed properly. A passenger does not want to wait for an hour at the baggage claim to pick up checked bags because rampers are no longer allowed to handle the bags in the normal expiditious way that doesn't damage properly packed items.
You have about 10 minutes to unload a hold full of bags if you are going to get them on your connections. We had a performance standard at my old company that the first offloaded bag should hit the bag claim belt no later than 15 minutes after landing. At the company I worked for (not UAL) we'd typically have 100-250 bags and 2-3 rampers offloading/loading them. You do the math. Heaving bags is not mishandling though some passengers see this and freakout. It is normal. It does NOT damage properly packed bags or their contents.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): "If you're going to lose, then lose early and lose gracefully".
Too late for that
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): IMHO, it doesn't matter what United did at this point, they need to handle it and make it go away
They cannot make it go away. It is too late to make it go away the internet is forever.
see below
Quoting Enginebird (Reply 120): The only problem there is that the song will never go away, no matter how much UA pays for it. This is the digital age and once it's out there it's out there. The video can be copied a million times in a split second without affecting the quality. If Dave takes it off YouTube someone else will put it back there within minutes. Nobody can make it go away again, not even the creator of the video himself!
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104): if you choose to believe that this professional musician damaged his own property on the way to a show, then chose to blame United instead, and then made up a story about all of his phone calls, then absent a resolution went to the trouble to write song and make videos about it - well, I think sometimes we can't see the forest for the tress.
I'm not saying he purposefully broke it (though he is certainly profiting from it). There are a million different ways that guitar could have been broken between it leaving United's custody and him discovering the damage at least a day later. I believe he believes UAL is responsible. His belief does not make it so and because he didn't bother to check his equipment before he left the airport we will never know who was responisible. Plenty of people are dishonest enough to go after the person with the biggest pockets to pay for the damage even if they know someone else is responsible.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 105): Nobody, that's right, NOBODY (don't even try to claim otherwise) in their right mind reads and fully remembers every single word of all the legalese that we are inundated with in our daily lives.
What is the saying ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because you choose not to inform yourself does not absolve you from following the contract rules you agreed to. You check in a bag you agree to follow the appropriate claim proceedures.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 110): For example, this "report within 24 hours stuff" is a rule set up by United, it is not an amendment to the constitution.
It's not some arbitrary screwball internal rule. It exists for a reason. Where do draw the line? What if 3 years later someone wants to file a claim? 24 hours is more than generous. The claim should be filed before you leave the airport or the damage could be anyones fault.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): United is in the business of satisfying customers and not losing them to the competition. That should be the benchmark.
United would really satisfy me if every time I flew them they gave $1000 that would be awesome. Should they give everyone $1000 to make sure they are satisfied? Of course not they are a business. They should do what they want within reason to satify their customers but this guy was not reasonable.
Quoting Crewchief (Reply 114): This song is a protest song against poor customer service.
No it's a protest song/temper tantrum about him not getting his way even though he was not willing to follow the proper proceedure. He even points out that he got decent customer service from Mrs. Irhwig. She gave him good service he just didn't like that she couldn't give him his way. Too many people equate not getting your way with lousy service. I want my giant carryon on my lap that FA is mean because she won't let me keep it here. I want a refund for my non-refundable ticket because I missed my flight because I didn't get to the airport on time that ticket agent is mean because she is charging me change fees.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 96): that everybody contacted tried to make him speak to someone else rather than addressing the issue, that apparently he was given parrot talk over the phone
That's not true at all even he doesn't says so. He actually compliments Ms. Irhwig as you point out. He just didn't like what he was being told. Which is you have to report it immediately not wait several days to file a claim.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 117): In the clip, he also reveals that the second song takes a "microcosm" approach and gives a lighthearted description of the interaction between him and the UA employee with whom he had the most contact, Ms. Irlweg.
In the statement, he also defends this lady and says she is getting more flak at the moment than she deserves - and that from an employer's perspective, she was a great employee.
Sure sounds like he is upset about not getting his way not because Ms. Irhwig was a jerk.
Silver1SWA From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2903 posts, RR: 21 Reply 126, posted (5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6349 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 99):
A passengers does not want to see his luggage being hurled around on the apron.
A passenger also does not want to arrive to their destination without a bag because it missconnected because the rampers were slow in offloading/loading it. A passenger also does not want to have a minimum of 2 hours connection time so that every bag can be gingerly placed in the cart and hold. A passenger does not want to pay tripple their ticket cost to cover other passengers broken guitars that weren't packed properly. A passenger does not want to wait for an hour at the baggage claim to pick up checked bags because rampers are no longer allowed to handle the bags in the normal expiditious way that doesn't damage properly packed items.
You have about 10 minutes to unload a hold full of bags if you are going to get them on your connections. We had a performance standard at my old company that the first offloaded bag should hit the bag claim belt no later than 15 minutes after landing. At the company I worked for (not UAL) we'd typically have 100-250 bags and 2-3 rampers offloading/loading them. You do the math. Heaving bags is not mishandling though some passengers see this and freakout. It is normal. It does NOT damage properly packed bags or their contents.
Exactly right. I could not have said it any better. It is the responsibility of the airline to get the customers' bags from point A to point B on time. It is the responsibility of the customer to chose what they want to check and to pack those items appropriately in a bag or a suitcase designed to protect the contents inside. The responsibility of the airline to provide compensation for damaged items goes only as far as what is stated in the contract of carriage.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): Too many people equate not getting your way with lousy service.
Another accurate statement.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 127, posted (5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6345 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 126): Why are you so determined to believe that his guitar was broken when the handlers supposedly threw it ???
I'm not determined. I don't know exactly what happened, as I wasn't there. Based on what we DO know, however, it seems EXTREMELY plausible, and in fact quite likely, that it happened pretty much like it has been described. There is little reason to doubt it. Frankly, his version of events sounds a hell of a lot more likely than any other possible explanation. Again, even United Airlines is not doubting his version of the story, so why are you? You really seem hellbent on poking as many holes in it as possible. It's not an airtight case like someone would present in a courtroom, but that really really does not matter one single iota. In the court of public opinion, it pretty much just has to pass the smell test.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 126): who he probably doesn't even know the name of
Probably. See, that's the crux of this pretty ridiculous disagreement we're having. Like I said, this just has to pass the smell test, and evidently we have different senses of smell. I think that the VAST majority of people (well, the vast majority of people who don't work for airlines, anyway) see a sympathetic guy who just wanted to get from point A to point B, but got his guitar broken by an airline which gave him the run-around and doesn't want to take any responsibility. You see a sucker who didn't read the fine print, and you think he deserves to get screwed. You're starting from a position of extreme skepticism, and you don't want to believe his version of events no matter how plausible it seems. But again, it doesn't matter how it actually happened, because we will never ever know.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): What is the saying ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because you choose not to inform yourself does not absolve you from following the contract rules you agreed to. You check in a bag you agree to follow the appropriate claim proceedures.
But it's not the law. It's a set of disclaimers, designed by the corporation, to protect the corporation.
Nobody is disputing that he didn't make his claim within 24 hours, so *legally*, United wasn't obligated to give him time of day. However, United can still go above and beyond their minimum legal obligations in order to make their customer, who seemingly suffered harm because of their negligence, at least somewhat satisfied. Many companies go above and beyond what they are required to do.
To reiterate, they were within their rights to deny his claim. However, it was still poor decision-making by United's employees to treat him with apathy, make him jump through a ton of hoops over a process that dragged out over a year (again, assuming his story is true), and then give him nothing for all that trouble, and he's left holding a busted guitar. The result of these poor decisions has been the video and a lot of bad publicity. You reap what you sow.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): Too many people equate not getting your way with lousy service.
But seeing your property handled carelessly, having flight attendants that don't care, and then having to play phone tag for a year is how good customer service works?
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 126):
If you can afford a $3,500 guitar then I'm sure you can afford a decent enough $200 - $500 to bring on the road with you.
You must not be a musician of any sort. If you have a nice guitar that sounds exactly how you want it to sound and that you are comfortable playing with, that's what you want to use when you're performing. Not a crummy $200 one. Musicians are selling their sound, their tone, and they are usually very particular about what equipment they use. Yes, he should've used a flight case, but regardless, a musical instrument should not be handled roughly, no matter what it's packed in. It's not a bag full of clothes.
the internet has a short attention span. fads come and go. if united can make this go away, nobody will remember this time next year. and i sure as heck would not make any conclusions based on what youtube commenters say.
Hestaman From United States, joined Jun 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 129, posted (5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6327 times:
The best part of the video are the responses... Here are a few from the last few minutes:
United is such a terrible company that if someone were to tell me that they implemented a policy of eating babies during take off, I don't think I'd be surprised.
This is the Human experience at it's finest!!! To triumph over adversity!!! Using your God-given intelligence!!!! Your brilliant Dave!!! The age old Dave and Goliath Story!!! And as usual Goliath "will go down in flames" over this one!!! Bob Taylor of Taylor Guitars should invite you down to Taylor to hand pick out a New one" for the best advertising money he never spent!!! In fact, Dave you should be in Taylor ads!!! United "you suck" !!!!
Customer service fail. I'll be sure to remember this.
Wow--United sucks at customer service!! I just had a squabble with them--Thanks for singing it all for me-- way better than I could
It goes on and on and on... each page has tons of unique and humorous responses...
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 130, posted (5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6233 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): even United Airlines is not doubting his version of the story,
Actually they are. They refused the claim because they don't believe they are responsible. Even their press release does not accept responsiblity for the broken guitar.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): But it's not the law. It's a set of disclaimers, designed by the corporation, to protect the corporation.
I didn't say it was the law. I was drawing a parallel to the well known saying. Ignorance of the contract you are agreeing to doesn't absolve you from your portion of responsiblity.
Nothing in his story suggest the FA's did not care. He made the implication in the video but if you read the story all it says is he told the FA's and they directed him to the appropriate employee. The flight attendants directed him to the person who could help. We don't have ramp access or a phone line/radio down to the bag handlers. We cannot get off the airplane with minimum crew when there are still passengers on board. What did you expect them to do?
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): then having to play phone tag for a year is how good customer service works?
He's the one who chose to drag it out. He was told from the get go that they were not responsible because he did not report it in a reasonable time frame. He then insisted on dragging it out in the hopes they would capitulate only to hear over and over again they weren't responsible.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 131): the internet has a short attention span. fads come and go. if united can make this go away, nobody will remember this time next year
That may be but these things have a way of periodicaly resurfacing. Like herpes there is no way for UAL to get rid of it for good. They can try to suppress it but it will still flare up on occasion.
PlanesNTrains From United States, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 12 Reply 131, posted (5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6205 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 122): Why are you so determined to discredit this guy's story?
Good question!
Quoting N104UA (Reply 123):
I finally saw this video and even though I understand that he is upset, he should not portray ramp agents in that manner, many of my friends and family members are ramp agents for United and I do not believe that they were physically throwing his guitar anymore than they should throw a bag, and if the guitar case was not strong enough to allow something to happen with it it should have been carried on an checked another piece of luggage. I really wish he would not have acted like the agents were playing catch with it because of all of the pressure put on them by management for ontime departures they were doing what is needed to get the plane out on time.
I think the way that they were portrayed was light and funny. If you are on the "inside", it might be offensive, but to most of us, it was just acting. I certainly don't think that's how they do their jobs (and frankly, after watching some through the glass at the airport, I would not be surprised if it were worse sometimes).
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 126): Why are you so determined to believe that his guitar was broken when the handlers supposedly threw it ??? All it is anyway is a "story", are we supposed to believe every story that we hear, oh no , but wait, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Goldilocks and Little Red Riding Hood all actually happened
Hey, why believe anyone then? And why even have a Loss and Damage Claim department....if there's no Loss or Damage? And if there is indeed Loss and Damage, then why is it so hard to believe this story? I mean, seriously...
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 126): Look if he took the matter to court and won, then I would absolutely eat my shorts, but that hasn't happened, and probably never will for that matter !!!
Of course it won't happen. First, because United wants it to all just go away, and second, because he has said he doesn't want the money and that they can just donate it to a charity. What a bloodsucking slimeball!
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 104):
"If you're going to lose, then lose early and lose gracefully".
Too late for that
True.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): I'm not saying he purposefully broke it (though he is certainly profiting from it). There are a million different ways that guitar could have been broken between it leaving United's custody and him discovering the damage at least a day later. I believe he believes UAL is responsible. His belief does not make it so and because he didn't bother to check his equipment before he left the airport we will never know who was responisible. Plenty of people are dishonest enough to go after the person with the biggest pockets to pay for the damage even if they know someone else is responsible
Please reread the most recent posts. He doesn't want the money. They can donate it to charity. He - like every friggin' human being - just wants to be heard, acknowledged, taken seriously, apologized to, etc., even if in the end he gets nothing. It's the fact that he had to speak to numerous people in numerous cities (countries, continents) to get to the point of writing a song that is the problem.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): United would really satisfy me if every time I flew them they gave $1000 that would be awesome. Should they give everyone $1000 to make sure they are satisfied? Of course not they are a business. They should do what they want within reason to satify their customers but this guy was not reasonable.
Please don't ever run a business of your own. I'd hate to see the response if someone dared ask for something "special".
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): No it's a protest song/temper tantrum about him not getting his way even though he was not willing to follow the proper proceedure
Again, read the posts. He doesn't want the money. If it had been handled professionally from the beginning, it probably wouldn't have gone anywhere even if he didn't "get his way". It's the pass-the-buck corporate-customer-disservice mentality that let to his "temper tantrum". Honestly, I can't believe you called it that. I'm starting to visualize asking for the entire can, and then getting "that look"...
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): In the court of public opinion, it pretty much just has to pass the smell test.
That should be the title of the thread! Sums it up perfectly.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): You must not be a musician of any sort. If you have a nice guitar that sounds exactly how you want it to sound and that you are comfortable playing with, that's what you want to use when you're performing. Not a crummy $200 one. Musicians are selling their sound, their tone, and they are usually very particular about what equipment they use.
I suppose a traveling physician who has a valuable piece of equipment stolen from his bag should have been using his Fisher-Price Tongue Depresser on this trip.
It's almost like some are saying:
"Yes, bags are damaged sometimes, and we do have to move them quickly to make tight connections. And yes, we need you to immediately contact the representative, even if they aren't at the desk, and if they aren't there, you must find someone. And even then, there's no way to prove anything. And besides, it could have been broken by him...or someone else. And besides, he should have been traveling with a cheap knock-off instrument to avoid this problem. And it's true, you may need to talk to Mundeep in Mumbai, but you know what: It's all YOUR FAULT! You want LOW FARES and TIGHT CONNECTIONS! You MORON OF A CUSTOMER! ................ Now, GET BACK IN LINE!......NEXT!"
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 132, posted (5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6180 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 134): second, because he has said he doesn't want the money and that they can just donate it to a charity. What a bloodsucking slimeball!
He says many times in his story that he want's them to pay for the damage. He is only now changing his tune to say he wants the money donated to charity. Now that he has more than made up for any out of pocket costs in publicity his mediocre band never would have recieved without this incident.
Who would want to start a business in the US these days. With all the leaches out there and customers who want your business to pay for the customers negligence. People with unreasonable expectations and insane demands. No thanks.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 134): They should do what they want within reason to satify their customers but this guy was not reasonable.
Typo here I meant to say should do what they CAN not want.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 134): yes, we need you to immediately contact the representative, even if they aren't at the desk, and if they aren't there, you must find someone
Yes you do need to do this. It is not unreasonable and people need to take responsibility for their role in the whole process. The burden is not entirely on the business.
I certainly didn't say that the way to prove something happened is to make a timely claim.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 134): It's all YOUR FAULT! You want LOW FARES and TIGHT CONNECTIONS! You MORON OF A CUSTOMER! ................ Now, GET BACK IN LINE!......NEXT!"
I didn't say that either. However, people need to acknowledge their role in something like this. He F'ed up and he is taking his screw-up out on United. If he'd been responsible 1) he would have packed his valuable instrument properly 2) he would have filed a timely damage claim.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3877 posts, RR: 15 Reply 133, posted (5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6160 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): The claim should be filed before you leave the airport or the damage could be anyones fault.
it is a hidden damage, you are not supposed to open your bags when you take them off the carousel. In that caee, claiming that he had indirect witnessed the mishandling, he might or at least should have done that. Sorry I haven't read the full thread, but as a cargo man, and conditions for baggage are similar, customers have to realize that there are limitations of liability and the customer has to cooperate by following certain steps.
Its like that with all insurance matters.
But that's not what I wanted to say.
This story has hit the news worldwide. I saw this in two newspapes this morning and my local radio HR1 at Frankfurt played the song this morning, with some additional remarks by the DJ Werner Reincke. Not bad for a local band from Nova Scotia. It is a good song, a catchy tune and the lyrics hit the nail because many people have had the same experience.
Bad karma for UA and a good reason for the management to re-train the rampers / loaders. You never know whose property you smash.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 134, posted (5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6126 times:
Further development in this saga:
" "United will donate $3,000 to the Thelonious Monk Institute of Jazz for music education for kids," a spokeswoman said yesterday."
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): It's not some arbitrary screwball internal rule. It exists for a reason. Where do draw the line?
In fact it is an arbitrary screwball rule. Nowhere says the law that if someone damages your property that you have to report it within 24 hours. From a legal point of view, all that matters is limitation. And because of that, United as just one party to the contract of carriage dumps an arbitrary rule into its standard contract that serves the one and only purpose of cutting back the risk of liability. They can, of course, do that, but the question in the end is whether a court of law would hold this clause to be reasonable and lawful. So you should not make such a fuzz about the 24 hour rule. Airlines set up funny rules day in day out to maximise their profits, and quite a few of the get trashed in court once they are tested.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 128): What if 3 years later someone wants to file a claim? 24 hours is more than generous. The claim should be filed before you leave the airport or the damage could be anyones fault.
I think this shows a fundamental misconception of basic legal principles. It is not about "being generous", it is about meeting legal obligations. And even if you report within 24 hours, United does not automatically assume liability. Do you really think you could put some small print into a contract that says "Should we damage your property, you must report the damage within 24 hours to us. Otherwise, you will forfeit all your rights." Come on. All that happens is that the longer the flight dates back the more difficult it is to prove causation. I would really love to see a court decision that denies a passenger compensation who has presented ten witnesses for something going unbroken into the suitcases and coming out of it smashed after the flight because he has not met United's arbitrary 24 hour rule.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 135): He says many times in his story that he want's them to pay for the damage. He is only now changing his tune to say he wants the money donated to charity. Now that he has more than made up for any out of pocket costs in publicity his mediocre band never would have recieved without this incident.
You should listen to the song again. The song is a recollection of the events until the moment that famous Ms. Irwig told him to bugger off. And in this process he of ocurse wanted money. Now, months later, he is well beyond this point. The message of the song is - and he explicitly says exactly this in the song - "United, your attitude must go".
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 127): You have about 10 minutes to unload a hold full of bags if you are going to get them on your connections. We had a performance standard at my old company that the first offloaded bag should hit the bag claim belt no later than 15 minutes after landing. At the company I worked for (not UAL) we'd typically have 100-250 bags and 2-3 rampers offloading/loading them. You do the math. Heaving bags is not mishandling though some passengers see this and freakout. It is normal. It does NOT damage properly packed bags or their contents.
Didn't I read somewhere that United actually wants to buy the video to use it for training? Just wondering why if everything went perfectly normal. Then there is no reason to re-train personnel.
The funny thing is that not even United themselves comes up with all those explanations, counter-accusations and lame excuses you can read here. Because United has understood that stuff like "Yeah, we broke your guitar, but you filed your claim too late", "Are you sure no customer rep was present upon arrival?", "You could have packed your guitar more carefully", "That's the company policy" only adds to the disaster. As I said earlier, if you do not want to alienate your customer base, you should not think about being right and talk like a lawyer, but about doing the right thing. Trying to get away on technicalities in the eye of the public is probably the dumbest thing you can do as a company.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3877 posts, RR: 15 Reply 135, posted (5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6056 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 137): fact it is an arbitrary screwball rule. Nowhere says the law that if someone damages your property that you have to report it within 24 hours
well.you have to show sufficient cause that the damage took place while the goods were in )uniteds) custody. After leaving the airport that could have happened anywhere. tricky thing for both sides, and UA reinsures itself, so they have to follow the guidelines of their insurer as well.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 137): has presented ten witnesses for something going unbroken into the suitcases and coming out of it smashed after the flight because he has not met United's arbitrary 24 hour rule.
leave the band out, they depend on him., Then there are conditions of contract, the whole legal stuff, however, it is better for an airline to offer some compnesation than nothing at all.
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 137): The message of the song is - and he explicitly says exactly this in the song - "United, your attitude must go".
and now he makes more money out of this than UA could ever pay him. good for him.
I just thought if that happens to Willie Nelson's "Trigger". I am sure he buys an extra first class seat for his working tool.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 136, posted (5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6027 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 138):
and now he makes more money out of this than UA could ever pay him. good for him
But it must be said that it is a pure windfall. He could never have imagined that the video would go viral. If you listen to the guy in some interviews, he is a very humble, down to earth person, not some sort of prick who thinks the world owes him all and everything. So I don't mind at all if his band is getting more popular as a result of this (note that the did the video as a personal thing, not as a band project) or Taylor guitars gives him two guitars for free. After all, he wasted a lot of his time with United and a lot of time (and probably his own money) writing and producing the song and shooting the video.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 137, posted (5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6020 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 133): Actually they are. They refused the claim because they don't believe they are responsible. Even their press release does not accept responsiblity for the broken guitar.
They aren't responsible for paying for the guitar. That doesn't mean they think the guitar did not break while under their care.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 138, posted (5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5999 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): It's not an airtight case like someone would present in a courtroom, but that really really does not matter one single iota. In the court of public opinion, it pretty much just has to pass the smell test.
Once again you ARE NOT properly reading my previous posts where I CLEARLY state that I strongly agree with anything you or any poster has said to the extent that his story is incredibly believable to the general public. I am not denying that. The point I am trying to make is that if the took this to court he probably would lose, nothing more and nothing less !!! And like I said before, I think it is a HUGE problem for United that even though they may not believe his story, that the general public who pays money to fly them does !!!
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): you don't want to believe his version of events no matter how plausible it seems.
But there are in fact, certain aspects of his story, that at least to me, sound suspicious and which I think therefor cast doubt over his entire claim. Like how even after he was very concerned after being told by someone that his guitar was thrown by rampers at ORD, that he didn't immmediately inspect his guitar when he picked it up off the carousel, or like how he couldn't find a CSA agent in OMA (which could in fact be a complete lie, as in he didn't even try to find one, because another poster stated that there most likely was one there), and like how after he did discover the damage to his guitar he waited a whole week, or as United says, a whole month later to even make his claim.
Basically if there's anyone punching holes in this guy's story, it's him !!!
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 130): You must not be a musician of any sort. If you have a nice guitar that sounds exactly how you want it to sound and that you are comfortable playing with, that's what you want to use when you're performing. Not a crummy $200 one. Musicians are selling their sound, their tone, and they are usually very particular about what equipment they use. Yes, he should've used a flight case, but regardless, a musical instrument should not be handled roughly, no matter what it's packed in. It's not a bag full of clothes.
Actually, this is where you are definitely wrong, as I have in fact been paying the guitar for the past 15 years of my life, as well as bass and drums. I have also played in 10 different bands, played numerous live shows and my bands have released several 7" records. As a guitarist I know that there is no need to purchase a $3,500 guitar because it is most likely that you can find a guitar for much cheaper that sounds just as good. In fact it is quite possible that some piece of junk down at the local pawn shop that costs $50 could play and sound just as good as any $3,500 guitar, it's not very likely, but it can happen. I personally would never ever purchase a guitar that expensive, I don't really think there's a need for it. And if I had a guitar that expensive, I would definitely put it in a flight case if I was going to travel it with it. But then again I am not Mr. Joe Public, as Mr. Joe Public has not played guitar for 15 years, so why should my opinion count ???
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3877 posts, RR: 15 Reply 139, posted (5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5982 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 139): But it must be said that it is a pure windfall. He could never have imagined that the video would go viral. If you listen to the guy in some interviews, he is a very humble, down
yes, I agree that he is a good guy and he makes good music. He certainly deserves the success he has woth the song.
It is just amazing to watch how things sometimes turn out and self initiative always pays.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
ChrisNH From United States, joined Jun 1999, 3178 posts, RR: 3 Reply 141, posted (5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5939 times:
He'll end up getting twice as many views of one video in six days than he thought all three videos would get...in a YEAR! He'll crack 2 million this weekend, with well over 10,000 comments.
In the end, United thought it was saying 'No' to just one, meaningless guy. But they were saying 'No' to all of us. That's the power of the individual for you, and this guy played it like, well, a Taylor Guitar. He gets press, his band gets press, Taylor guitar gets press. United gets press, too, but of a different sort. It was a brilliant masterstroke to name the song simply 'United Breaks Guitars.' If you're into the Internet and you know about search-engine optimization (SEO), you'll appreciate the role that played in making it go 'viral.'
United has agreed to donate about $3k to a charity of Dave Carroll's, which is a perfect ending. Dave got two guitars given to him by Taylor, so it's no longer about chasing the airline.
And what of 'nice' 'Ms. Irlweg?' She must be holed up in her home, wondering WTF prompted her to get into airline customer service in the first place. Dave does feel a bit for this woman, suggesting that Song #2 or #3 will help soften her around the edges.
How'd you like to be a ramp rat at O'Hare now? It's quite unfair for a whole class of workers to get trashed by the actions of a few, but what's the remedy? That's a whole debate in itself.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 142, posted (5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5921 times:
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 144): United has agreed to donate about $3k to a charity of Dave Carroll's, which is a perfect ending. Dave got two guitars given to him by Taylor, so it's no longer about chasing the airline.
Yes I agree, this is indeed a perfect ending !!!
United did however get a lot of bad press over this, and even though it will be forever debatable as to whether A) they really did break his guitar or B) he was actually treated badly by United CSA's when trying to make a claim, the main reason why this song is so popular is that here are obvioulsy many, many people out there who have in fact recieved very bad service from United and this is what the popularity of this song really signifies . . . the fact that the general public think that United's customer service needs to drastically improve !!!
In terms of United, I think this is a classic "Boys Cries Wolf" scenario. They have treated thousands of customers badly and even though they might not actually have done anything wrong with Mr. Carrol, the public are just not going to believe them when they start crying "Wolf" about this one particular incident. If all the bad publicity eats them alive, then it is ultimately none but their own fault !!!
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 143, posted (5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5911 times:
What is particularly noteworthy is that not only 2m viewers have watched the movie by now, but 11.000 (!) have left comments, most of them with bitter complaints about United or airlines in general. At the moment on the top page there is this one, for example:
"Wow over 2 million in 4 days. I'm boycotting United. Since I organize business trips, a certain city I work for will too."
I will be interesting to see if some economists and marketing gurus will come up with estimates how dear those saved 1.200 USD in the end will be for United.....
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 144, posted (5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5879 times:
Do not over-interpret youtube comments. look at comments left under other videos. these are generally not serious members of society. they'll say anything for shock value.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2802 posts, RR: 6 Reply 145, posted (5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5869 times:
I think there is a big difference between people being directed to youtube through news outlets such as CNN, FOX, CBS etc. (who all link to the video), or those who just browse youtube and come across silly videos. Almost everybody has viewed the video because he has been directed to it, not because he is a youtube nerd.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 146, posted (5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5867 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 146): I will be interesting to see if some economists and marketing gurus will come up with estimates how dear those saved 1.200 USD in the end will be for United.....
No, I don't think this really has anything to do with Mr. Carrols case, I think it has more to do with the fact that United is very well known for providing bad customer service and that this song, whether true on not, has nonetheless struck a "chord" with the American flying public, who feel that they have, at numerous occasions, been very badly treated by United.
If United was an amazing airline with amazing cutomer service and never, ever treated a customer badly, this song would have recieved nowhere near as much publicity as it has !!! It's not about the $1,200 that they could have paid for in damages to the guitar, its about the millions upon millions of dollars that they could have spent to have had much better customer service standards towards it's millions upon millions of passengers !!!
Basically, to me, it looks like United cut corners in order to save a whole lot of money (like call centres India for example), and now they're paying the price for it. It happens to companies all the time !!!
Hestaman From United States, joined Jun 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 147, posted (5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5827 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 141): The point I am trying to make is that if the took this to court he probably would lose, nothing more and nothing less !!!
And the point many of us are trying to make is that if he took this to court:
a) He would have a definitive answer to his plea that same day
b) He would present his case to 1 judge 1 time.
c) There would be a defined set of 'rules' which both sides would be obliged to follow.
Don't you get it? According to his video (take it for what it's worth) his claim took about a year to process before he got the final 'No'. He went through multiple employees - many of them saying he'd have to take up his case with somebody else. And C - before I get flamed - yes, I know there is a contract of carriage - but it seems that many 'rules' are applied arbitraily (as is the case with TSA btw which adds to the incredible frustrations with that agency). What is a 'rule' to 1 agent is no big deal to the other.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 148, posted (5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5845 times:
Quoting Hestaman (Reply 150): And the point many of us are trying to make is that if he took this to court:
a) He would have a definitive answer to his plea that same day
b) He would present his case to 1 judge 1 time.
c) There would be a defined set of 'rules' which both sides would be obliged to follow.
Ok, maybe I'm guilty of not reading other posts properly even though I have accused others of not reading mine properly, but I have not seen any comments in this thread about the "point" that you describe. This is the first time I have seen it, but nevertheless, it is indeed a valid one.
Quoting Hestaman (Reply 150): Don't you get it? According to his video (take it for what it's worth) his claim took about a year to process before he got the final 'No'. He went through multiple employees - many of them saying he'd have to take up his case with somebody else. And C - before I get flamed - yes, I know there is a contract of carriage - but it seems that many 'rules' are applied arbitraily (as is the case with TSA btw which adds to the incredible frustrations with that agency). What is a 'rule' to 1 agent is no big deal to the other.
What probably happened is that he spoke to many people on many levels and they all told him "no", and he didn't like what he heard, so he kept going higher and higher up in the United hierarchy until a whole year later, he had gone as high as he could, and they still told him "no". If this process did in fact take a year, then I agree, that yes, it was unacceptable on United's part, but maybe that's just how long it takes to reach the top in a huge company like United !!! Yes, big faceless beauracratic corporations suck, and I'm definitely not denying that !!!
Regardless, United is not a court of law, they are a private company, so if this guy felt that he was really wronged and wanted to prove that United was at fault he should have taken legal action. He might never have done this because he was advised that his case wouldn't even have made it in front of a judge. At the end of the day, if you have two parties in disagreement with each other, the only way to settle it is to take it to court. And even then, the verdict may still not be entirely fair, but it's as close as you can get.
I would love to see this guy vs. United on Judge Judy. Now that would be fun to watch, and quite interesting as well !!!
Hestaman From United States, joined Jun 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 149, posted (5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5842 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 151): I have not seen any comments in this thread about the "point" that you describe.
My "point" is that it is not about the guitar... all three points above are about CUSTOMER SERVICE.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 151): What probably happened is that he spoke to many people on many levels and they all told him "no", and he didn't like what he heard, so he kept going higher and higher up in the United hierarchy until a whole year later, he had gone as high as he could, and they still told him "no". If this process did in fact take a year, then I agree, that yes, it was unacceptable on United's part, but maybe that's just how long it takes to reach the top in a huge company like United !!! Yes, big faceless beauracratic corporations suck, and I'm definitely not denying that !!!
The fact it would take a year to go "higher and higher up in the United hierarchy" speaks volumes.
Hestaman From United States, joined Jun 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 150, posted (5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5832 times:
... After some thought... maybe it is better said that my "point" is that all three statements could have been handled more satisfactorilly through better Customer Service. I'll retract my statement that it's not about the guitar - without the guitar none of this would have come up. But I would say that it is (to pick an arbitrary number) 30% about the guitar and 70% about customer service.
2175301 From United States, joined May 2007, 634 posts, RR: 0 Reply 151, posted (5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5771 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 141): But there are in fact, certain aspects of his story, that at least to me, sound suspicious and which I think therefor cast doubt over his entire claim. Like how even after he was very concerned after being told by someone that his guitar was thrown by rampers at ORD, that he didn't immmediately inspect his guitar when he picked it up off the carousel, or like how he couldn't find a CSA agent in OMA (which could in fact be a complete lie, as in he didn't even try to find one, because another poster stated that there most likely was one there), and like how after he did discover the damage to his guitar he waited a whole week, or as United says, a whole month later to even make his claim.
I find the story extremely believable because I have experience similar things in my air travels over the years. When arriving late at night (remember he arrived after midnight) I am often so tired that all I want to do is get to a hotel and crash.....
Personal experience tells me that baggage claim agents tend not to exist in most airports at that time of night. In fact, sometimes they do not seem to exist in mid afternoon in large airports like Seattle (I had "missed" my connection but my bag had not - so it arrived at Seattle several hours before I did. There it was, clearly visible through the window of the locked baggage claim office/area. It took me almost an hour to get someone to unlock the baggage claim office and retrieve it); and yes, I called the phone number on the door right away (and called again after about 1/2 hour, and again at 3/4 hour).
The next AM he was picked up and on a road trip across the state most of the day. Totally believable that he did not have a reasonable chance to inspect until he showed up to his gig. How often have I just tossed a case into a vehicle and never opened it until hours later. I did not notice that my camera had been stolen once.... until after 24 hours I didn't unpack my suitcase when I got home, collapsed into bed, went to work the next AM, etc. I'm so glad that those TSA compliant locks work so well.... But, of course, I was also told that I was supposed to have filed a claim within 24 hours of my flight landing..... that was after being asked if I was really sure that I had packed my camera, being asked how could it be stolen in a locked case - etc. Note that my carryon consist of medical equipment and my laptop which are more important (no room for the camera).
Also, he claims that his guitar hard-case was inside a padded protective over-case - so I figure it was probably reasonably packed (even if it wasn't in an approved ata case).
Quote: When I got to Omaha it was around 12:30 am. The plane was late arriving and there were no employees visible. Although I was told later that it wouldn’t have mattered, I should have taken my hard case out of the padded protective exterior case to examine the guitar at the airport but I didn’t. The guitar case looked ok and we were tired, went to the hotel and then to sleep for our early morning pick-up by the tour managers the next day. When they picked us up in the early morning we would not be back in Omaha for seven days. It was later that day at sound check that I discovered that the base of my Taylor had been smashed.
One week later I returned to Omaha for my return trip. I explained what had happened and the United agent in Omaha said I needed to start a claim at the airport where the trip began (Halifax). So here is what happened next.
The reason that his song and story has attracted so much attention is because so many people have experienced similar problems (OK, problems do happen); and the lack of appropriate customer service in response to the problems (the real problem).
I'm not sure why you are so suspicious of his story. Anyone who travels a lot has experienced aspects of his story. Anyone who has to do work on the road much knows that at times all you do is grab your baggage, get transportation, crash for the night, get up the next AM and stuff everything into a vehicle and head down the road.
Anyway, I'm very glad that someone has come up with an appropriate response to an unappropriate customer service situation. What people really object to is the corporate stratagies of the airlines to give people the runnaround until they give up, and to deny that many things are not their responsibility even when it is obvious that it is. My guess is that had they deneid his claim right away and cited the 24 hour policy (like why didn't you call us) that Mr Carroll would never have thought of writting this song.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 588 posts, RR: 1 Reply 152, posted (5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5751 times:
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 154): Totally believable that he did not have a reasonable chance to inspect until he showed up to his gig.
While that's generally true, you'd think he'd have checked right away, since he had specific reason to think there might be a problem. But he didn't; oh well.
Silver1SWA From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2903 posts, RR: 21 Reply 153, posted (5 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5716 times:
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 154): I find the story extremely believable because I have experience similar things in my air travels over the years. When arriving late at night (remember he arrived after midnight) I am often so tired that all I want to do is get to a hotel and crash.....
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 154): The next AM he was picked up and on a road trip across the state most of the day. Totally believable that he did not have a reasonable chance to inspect until he showed up to his gig. How often have I just tossed a case into a vehicle and never opened it until hours later. I did not notice that my camera had been stolen once.... until after 24 hours I didn't unpack my suitcase when I got home, collapsed into bed, went to work the next AM, etc. I'm so glad that those TSA compliant locks work so well.... But, of course, I was also told that I was supposed to have filed a claim within 24 hours of my flight landing..... that was after being asked if I was really sure that I had packed my camera, being asked how could it be stolen in a locked case - etc. Note that my carryon consist of medical equipment and my laptop which are more important (no room for the camera).
But in these personal experiences, did you hear about and see your items being mishandled? Perhaps it's just me, but if I'm traveling and I see my belongings mistreated the first thing I'm going to do upon arrival is inspect them! If I'm understanding his story correctly, he saw the mishandling before he got to Omaha. So he had an entire flight to dwell on the condition of his guitar. If I was in that situation that would be one long flight and the moment I could inspect my guitar couldn't come soon enough! Especially if I need it for my upcoming shows!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
I would just like to thank you, very, very much for posting that link because I didn't know a detailed version of his story existed like that !!!
This explains things A LOT better, and honestly after reading it, I have a much better feeling about David Carrol, in the sense that I really don't think he is as much of a d**k as I thought he was, but I was only making my assumption based on what little I knew about the guy. These were entirely his own words and not some little excerpt of what he had said in a newspaper article or quick responses to certain questions he was being asked in a news interview.
Regardless there are still some aspects of his story that I am still going to poke holes in (sorry, I can't resist). . .
When I got to Omaha it was around 12:30 am. The plane was late arriving and there were no employees visible. Although I was told later that it wouldn’t have mattered, I should have taken my hard case out of the padded protective exterior case to examine the guitar at the airport but I didn’t. The guitar case looked ok and we were tired, went to the hotel and then to sleep for our early morning pick-up by the tour managers the next day. When they picked us up in the early morning we would not be back in Omaha for seven days. It was later that day at sound check that I discovered that the base of my Taylor had been smashed.
One week later I returned to Omaha for my return trip. I explained what had happened and the United agent in Omaha said I needed to start a claim at the airport where the trip began (Halifax). So here is what happened next.
He never says that he tried to find any employee, he just says there were none visible. What that means, I don't know, but we can't know for certain whether there was someone there or not, or that if he had looked for 5 minutes he might have found someone. Maybe he did look for a good 30 minutes and couldn't find one but for some reason he's left this detail out ???
He clearly does admit that he made the mistake of not examining his guitar and it appears that he didn't examine it because he was tired, I don't want to be harsh, but this is not a valid excuse. You are still responsible for checking your items to see if they have been damaged, especially if you have a very stong concern that this may be the case !!! If I had been him, I would have checked my guitar from head to toe to look for any nick, ding, or scratch that wasn't there before and I wouldn't have waited until the next day to do this.
There is still no explanation as to why he didn't try to contact United until he returned to Omaha, a whole week later. However, given the runaround he experienced later when trying to call them, it's hard to say as to whether this would have gotten him anywhere anyway.
Other than that, I can CLEARLY see from his incredibly detailed and very well written explanation that he was definitely given the almightiest of run-arounds by United after the fact. Which without a doubt is nothing but disgusting and utterly disgraceful customer service on United's part, and there really is no excuse. Some of the things like being told in OMA to make a claim back in Halifax, or sending his guitar all the way to Chicago for inspection, or the various customer service departments all over the world losing things or not being to be able to find them, are really unbelievable !!! When I tried to book frequent flyer miles on them over a year ago, I did in fact run into a very similar problem, sure, some of their agents were very helpful, whereas the majority were probably some of the dummest people I have probably ever spoken to in my life !!! I think it took me over 30 calls just to get my ticket sorted out, ridiculous !!!
BOACVC10 From United States, joined Jul 2006, 342 posts, RR: 0 Reply 155, posted (5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5660 times:
The author and writer has updated his video on youtube! Please see his clarification which is posted as a "response" to his original video. He has been contacted by United and offered some sort of compensation, and I must say, he is being gracious about his handling and intent to save the reputatoin of United employees.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 115): In no way will watching this video ever effect me buying a ticket on United in future. Maybe if I was planning on checking in a $3,500 guitar in the baggage hold in an unsuitable guitar case it would, but I would never do anything as retarded as that even if my life depended on it !!!
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 121): It's a $3,500 guitar, its not so much about the money, its about the sentimental value, it's a beautiful instrument Ive had it for over 10 years, played it on all the Sons of Maxwells 8 recordings and my own solo release and some of the songs I'm most proud of I wrote on it.
Pardon if someone already wrote this statement but "Why didn't he buy the guitar a seat?"
Also ,the link is on the home page of MSN.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
PlanesNTrains From United States, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 12 Reply 157, posted (5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5433 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 147): Do not over-interpret youtube comments. look at comments left under other videos. these are generally not serious members of society. they'll say anything for shock value.
I agree 100%. Great video, but the comments are pretty much invalid as a true barometer of how the public really feels.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 145): the fact that the general public think that United's customer service needs to drastically improve !!!
I don't think it's United - the public has long had a general disdain for airlines, because airlines have long seemed to have a general disdain for the public. United today, American tomorrow, US Airways the next....and next and next and next and.....
Lymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1123 posts, RR: 2 Reply 158, posted (5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5380 times:
United should quickly record their own video & post as a response on youtube...rampers singing their apologies...something like that! Shows UAL has a sense of humour but takes it seriously enough (not to mention endearing them to the youtube community)
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 159, posted (5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5259 times:
Quoting Lymanm (Reply 162): United should quickly record their own video & post as a response on youtube...rampers singing their apologies...something like that!
I would pay to see that! Tilton should be the cameo appearance!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 162, posted (5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5066 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 161): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 145):
the fact that the general public think that United's customer service needs to drastically improve !!!
I don't think it's United - the public has long had a general disdain for airlines, because airlines have long seemed to have a general disdain for the public. United today, American tomorrow, US Airways the next....and next and next and next and.....
I definitely agree with you that it's not just United but definitely all airlines in general. As far as I'm concerned the exact same situation could very well have happened if he had flown on AA, DL, NW, US or any other airline. UA was just unlucky that it happened to them, but I think ALL airlines should take this as an indication that their customer service needs to improve, or it could be them next !!!
2175301 From United States, joined May 2007, 634 posts, RR: 0 Reply 165, posted (5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4949 times:
Quoting Rightrudder (Reply 160): Pardon if someone already wrote this statement but "Why didn't he buy the guitar a seat?"
Because it's not really practical for all the equipment he was carrying: He was also traveling with a backup guitar as well. So does he buy 2 seats for both guitars? Does the base guitarist buys 2 seats as well?
Normal practice is in fact to check the instruments (and pay the extra bagage charges). According to interviews scattered about - his band had taken about 50 airline trips before on gigs without incident and with the same guitar cases.
I'm quite curious on exactly which cases he was using (he mentions a hard case that was in an foam soft case to prevent damage). I have a good guess on what his likely setup was (it was not what was pictured in the video); but am not positive. I have emailed Mr. Carroll asking about his case configuration (and listed which cases I would be using for routine gig trips: A Calton with a Colorado Custom Padded Case Cover - which is probably about a $1000 case set for his Taylor Guitar and would be likely be more rugged and durable than ATA specification cases). There are some other good hard cases out there as well.
Mr. Carroll has an automatic email response message essentially stating that he has been swamped with emails and that it may take a while before he has a chance to read them all and respond. When I get a reply I will post exactly which cases he was using.
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2727 posts, RR: 20 Reply 166, posted (5 months 23 hours ago) and read 4787 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 171): I think you missed the sarcasm.... I was totally kidding, to be honest. You missed the icon next to what I said, and left that out when you quoted me.
Rightrudder From United States, joined Aug 2008, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 167, posted (5 months 6 hours ago) and read 4542 times:
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 170): Because it's not really practical for all the equipment he was carrying: He was also traveling with a backup guitar as well. So does he buy 2 seats for both guitars? Does the base guitarist buys 2 seats as well?
Insure it then with an "Entertainment Equipment Floaters" insurance policy. Premiums start as low as $250.00 a year with some brokerages.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1695 posts, RR: 11 Reply 168, posted (5 months 5 hours ago) and read 4502 times:
Quoting Lymanm (Reply 162): United should quickly record their own video & post as a response on youtube...rampers singing their apologies...something like that! Shows UAL has a sense of humour but takes it seriously enough (not to mention endearing them to the youtube community)
Yes, they could hire Carroll and The Sons of Maxwell to pen it for them! Doubt UA would do that, nor do The Sons of Maxwell need it at this moment.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 135): However, people need to acknowledge their role in something like this. He F'ed up and he is taking his screw-up out on United. If he'd been responsible 1) he would have packed his valuable instrument properly 2) he would have filed a timely damage claim.
You are clear that United F'ed up in the first part, right? It wouldn't have happened at all if the ramp workers weren't careless.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 141): As a guitarist I know that there is no need to purchase a $3,500 guitar because it is most likely that you can find a guitar for much cheaper that sounds just as good. In fact it is quite possible that some piece of junk down at the local pawn shop that costs $50 could play and sound just as good as any $3,500 guitar, it's not very likely, but it can happen. I personally would never ever purchase a guitar that expensive, I don't really think there's a need for it.
No offense, but I think you are a different kind of musician. I'm a complete amateur musician. But, I can be very finicky about my instruments. I can tell a difference in quality, often scaled with cost. I much prefer to play better instruments, and in fact, won't play an inferior instrument ("from a pawn shop", been there done that) simply because it is no longer as enjoyable play. If I break mine, I'll have to save up and buy some equivalent replacement, not rush off to find a cheap replacement. And I'm not even making a living for it.
Bwohlgemuth From United States, joined Oct 2006, 90 posts, RR: 0 Reply 169, posted (5 months 5 hours ago) and read 4476 times:
Quoting Rampart (Reply 174): No offense, but I think you are a different kind of musician. I'm a complete amateur musician. But, I can be very finicky about my instruments. I can tell a difference in quality, often scaled with cost. I much prefer to play better instruments, and in fact, won't play an inferior instrument ("from a pawn shop", been there done that) simply because it is no longer as enjoyable play. If I break mine, I'll have to save up and buy some equivalent replacement, not rush off to find a cheap replacement. And I'm not even making a living for it.
If it was something that I felt more comfortable playing and it was my livelihood, you can bet I would buy a good guitar. But I would also most likely travel with another guitar or two and know where the nearest music store was in case of loss/damage.
Traveling with a $3500 Taylor is a bit much IMHO. But then again, I'm not a professional musician.
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1695 posts, RR: 11 Reply 170, posted (5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4408 times:
Quoting Bwohlgemuth (Reply 175): If it was something that I felt more comfortable playing and it was my livelihood, you can bet I would buy a good guitar. But I would also most likely travel with another guitar or two and know where the nearest music store was in case of loss/damage.
Traveling with a $3500 Taylor is a bit much IMHO. But then again, I'm not a professional musician.
I believe he did travel with another guitar or two. But this one was probably his favorite.
Talk about negative promotion, think of the symphony musicians, or entire orchestras, who, with their $27,000 Stradivari, might seek out another airline now. They don't have a choice with the instrument, but they do have choice with airlines. Like I said above, United could take this opportunity in revamping their ramp service by PARTICULARLY catering to careful handling of instruments, pointing out all the music groups or festivals where they are "offiicial airline of...". They're missing an opportunity to change for the better here. Well, maybe they will take it, who knows. I'd certainly change my tune! (HA!)
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 171, posted (5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4385 times:
Quoting Rampart (Reply 174): No offense, but I think you are a different kind of musician. I'm a complete amateur musician. But, I can be very finicky about my instruments. I can tell a difference in quality, often scaled with cost. I much prefer to play better instruments, and in fact, won't play an inferior instrument ("from a pawn shop", been there done that) simply because it is no longer as enjoyable play. If I break mine, I'll have to save up and buy some equivalent replacement, not rush off to find a cheap replacement. And I'm not even making a living for it.
At the end of the day, I think it's really all a matter of opinion, and taste in guitars of course !!! Every guitar has a different sound and every guitarist will percieve that sound in a different way, so I totally respect you opinion, even though it may be quite different from mine !!!
If this David Carrol just so happened to buy a $3,500 guitar and that was the guitar that he thought sounded the best, and felt most comfortable with, then of course it should also be the guitar that he brings on tour with him so he can play the best possible shows with it !!!
However, maybe he should have protected it a bit better . . .
My first electric guitar was a Fender Squire Stratocaster made in Mexico ( basically a Mexicaster ) that I got when I was 14 in 1994 for about $200. In the years that followed I had many complements from numerous much more experienced guitarists that were amazed at how nice the neck was, basically they were all surprised that a neck like that could have been put on a Squire ( for those not in the know, Squire is the name Fender gives to their budget, foreign produced models). And comparing it to some other Squires that my friends had that were made in China or Korea ( and sometimes even Mexico as well ), mine was in fact much superior in quality. Of course some of the hardware, like the tuners, weren't so flash, but it's relatively easy to replace that stuff. All I would have to do is replace the tuners, and I would have a guitar that would be just as good or even better than any much, much more expensive American made Fender Stratocaster.
And my other guitar, a Washburn MG-42, a $400 guitar (at time of purchase in 1996), which they unfortunately don't even make anymore, is the best at what it does, and even though the pick-up toggle switch has proven to be a bit faulty, and one of the tuners snapped off. I couldn't find a $5,000 guitar that could play or sound better for the life of me.
At the end of the day, each guitar is made from a completely different piece of wood, and it's the aspects of this particular piece of wood, that gives the guitar it's specific sound. It could so happen that one $3,500 guitar is made out of a piece of wood that gives an amazing sound, whereas the next $3,500 guitar is made out of a piece of wood that gives a terrible sound. Likewise a $200 guitar could possibly be made out of a piece of wood (or even plywood for that matter) that gave the best sound on the planet and therefore could sound a lot better than any $3,500 guitar ever could. Sure the hardware on the cheaper guitar won't be anywhere near as good , but you can always replace that kind of stuff quite easily. So basically, I'd rather buy the cheap guitar made out of the good piece of wood, and change the crappy hardware later, than buy the super expensive guitar made out of the bad piece of wood but with expensive hardware. . . and just be stuck with it !!!
I hate to say it but there are some people who think that just because they shell out a few thousand dollars for a guitar, they think that it will sound much, much better than any guitar that sells for a lot less, and this unfortunately is not usually the case !!!
So now I digress, this is in fact a forum based on aviation and not guitars . . .
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1695 posts, RR: 11 Reply 172, posted (5 months 3 hours ago) and read 4365 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 177): I hate to say it but there are some people who think that just because they shell out a few thousand dollars for a guitar, they think that it will sound much, much better than any guitar that sells for a lot less, and this unfortunately is not usually the case !!!
It will sound bad in a refined, well-crafted way. I resemble that remark.
2175301 From United States, joined May 2007, 634 posts, RR: 0 Reply 173, posted (5 months 1 hour ago) and read 4374 times:
Quoting Rightrudder (Reply 173): Insure it then with an "Entertainment Equipment Floaters" insurance policy. Premiums start as low as $250.00 a year with some brokerages.
I am quite sure that it was in fact insured. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the band has a general insurance policy for all of their equipment. The Sons Of Maxwell (Dave's Group) consist of the two brothers (Dave and Dan) and a backup band. Thus, I would expect that they have between $20,000 - $40,000 (or more) of instruments for a gig.
However, insurance is not the end-all and almost all policies have deductibles..... A thousand or two deductable is probably pretty standard.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 177): However, maybe he should have protected it a bit better . . .
There is no evidence that it was not properly protected - and evidence that he had gone beyond the normal in that he had his hardcase inside a foam soft case. He states in his write-up that he had his hardcase inside a padded foam case.
Of course, I could be wrong - and have emailed Dave Carroll on what cases he actually had.
While I do not have confirmation of this (I have sent an email - but who knows when - or if - I will receive a reply) - most professional musicians who travel with stringed instruments use Calton cases. They are the best protection money can buy (and are very expensive compared to any other case on the market). A case for an acoustic guitar the size of Dave Carroll’s is at least $1000.
However, even given that - there are reports on musician’s sites about their Calton cased instruments still being broken by the airlines every now and then (and a few reports of the cases themselves being broken).
To give an idea of the kind of abuse a Calton case can typically take and still protect its instrument (and verification of how instruments are handled by airlines - most of which ar towards the end of the "Testimonials"): http://www.caltoncases.com/Testimonials.html
There are of course several other brands of hardcases that provide good protection.
The soft overcase that Dave had protected the inner hard case from some significant bumps and would absorbe a lot of energy by itself.
The actual damage to the guitar was not the broken neck seen in the video - but actual body damage.
Quote:
It was later that day at sound check that I discovered that the base of my Taylor had been smashed.
The only explanation I can think of for that kind of damage is a fall from some height and a sudden stop on the pavement. The instrument and case was moving at such a speed that the supporting foam inside the hardcase could not prevent the guitar from crushing itself under its own imposed weight from the sudden deceleration imposed when the case stopped moving. Not even a Calton case can help you in that situation if it lands in the wrong direction.
Quoting Rampart (Reply 176): United could take this opportunity in revamping their ramp service by PARTICULARLY catering to careful handling of instruments, pointing out all the music groups or festivals where they are "offiicial airline of...". They're missing an opportunity to change for the better here. Well, maybe they will take it, who knows. I'd certainly change my tune! (HA!)
The musicians organizations have been trying to get some airline to do just this as the problem of damaged instruments - no matter how well packed - is a significant issue (why do you think Dave and others travel with backup instruments). There is some hope that "United Breaks Guitars" will in fact move the airline industry towards the concept that instruments are actually handled with care - or at least have the airline accept responsibility for damages they create.
One final bit of information: While many of the U-tube comments are inane; a quick review of some of them does show other people posting about similar damage to their musical instruments by the airlines. A little poking around on musician websites provides a somewhat periodic reporting of broken instruments. I have not seen a single report of such problems – even the one where some kind of solid rod got poked completely through a quality hard case – where the airline was responsive and accepted some liability; and that is where the real problem is.
To me, this should be simple: If your instrument is packed in a quality case – that the airlines are responsible for any damage that occurs while they are handling it.
Of course, you should also not tell someone with a complaint that they have to file it at the airport you originated from, then seem to loose the claim number every time you contact them, and run a person around for almost a year before someone makes a decision on the case either….
I can’t wait for song 2 where Dave deals in more detail about his saga with customer service once he had filed a claim (which Dave reports that he has been singing on his gigs to great reception – but has not yet finished the music video). I am sure that United can’t wait either….
Ken777 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2882 posts, RR: 12 Reply 174, posted (5 months 1 hour ago) and read 4377 times:
UA now faces a situation where 2.6 Million people have watched the video. Good PR is expensive and bad PR is free.
One area where airlines have failed over the past few years is the lack of authority employees working with customers have in terms of taking care of the customer. UA could have avoided several million dollars worth of bad PR simply by giving an employee the authority to take care of the problem - and the responsibility to take care of the customer.
Their current problem with the video is the result of having too many MBAs and too many lawyers.
Rightrudder From United States, joined Aug 2008, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 175, posted (5 months 1 hour ago) and read 4346 times:
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 180): I am quite sure that it was in fact insured. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the band has a general insurance policy for all of their equipment. The Sons Of Maxwell (Dave's Group) consist of the two brothers (Dave and Dan) and a backup band. Thus, I would expect that they have between $20,000 - $40,000 (or more) of instruments for a gig.
However, insurance is not the end-all and almost all policies have deductibles..... A thousand or two deductable is probably pretty standard.
Very good point. Yet, after getting compensated by his insurance company, subrogation would take effect and the deductible paid towards the claim most certainly would be refunded to him. In my opinion, if he was insured, it would of been much easier to allow the insurance carriers to settle the claim.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
FrmrCAPCADET From United States, joined May 2008, 642 posts, RR: 0 Reply 176, posted (5 months 1 hour ago) and read 4422 times:
I would not be unwilling to fly United ( although I do remember from the 70s that they seemed to lead the way in making Y uncomfortable), but I would assume a crappy seat and service. Which is in part, what the guitar player got. So he was in a position to publicise it, and funny to boot. Poor United. And even funnier, those to are going to such extremes in defending them.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
2175301 From United States, joined May 2007, 634 posts, RR: 0 Reply 177, posted (5 months 1 hour ago) and read 4390 times:
Quoting Rightrudder (Reply 182): Very good point. Yet, after getting compensated by his insurance company, subrogation would take effect and the deductible paid towards the claim most certainly would be refunded to him. In my opinion, if he was insured, it would of been much easier to allow the insurance carriers to settle the claim.
I'm not sure you understand how "deductables" work. If the band had a $2000 deductable - then the insurance company would only get involved if the repairs cost more than $2000. The band (Dave) has to pay the first $2000.
It is also likely that the deductable applies per "event" as well.
It is likely that Dave never even bothered to tell the insurance company about the damage if it was under the deductable limit.
Rightrudder From United States, joined Aug 2008, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 178, posted (5 months ago) and read 4330 times:
Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 183): I'm not sure you understand how "deductables" work. If the band had a $2000 deductable - then the insurance company would only get involved if the repairs cost more than $2000. The band (Dave) has to pay the first $2000.
True. Unless the other party is 100% at fault. Then Dave would most certainly get his ded. back.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
2175301 From United States, joined May 2007, 634 posts, RR: 0 Reply 181, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4261 times:
Quoting Rightrudder (Reply 188): True. Unless the other party is 100% at fault. Then Dave would most certainly get his ded. back.
Only if the "at fault" party was willing to pay.... United was not willing to pay a cent. Thus, Dave (and anyone else in a similar situation) is out the cost of repairs or replacement up to whatever the deductable is on their insurance policy. While suing is an option - that takes considerable mental energy and time for several years. Not worth it in most cases.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 189): I know nothing about guitars, but wouldn't be cheaper (given the $2000 deductible) to just buy a brand new one or is that besides the point?
I used "$2000" as an example. I have no idea what the exact deductable is on the Sons of Maxwell band's policy. However, it doesn't make sense to have a low deductable as that leads to a high premium. Just like my car, my home, and other things. I can personally afford the first thousand or two (not saying it would not pinch a bit). I am more worried about major damage or complete loss. I am sure that same is true for the band.
In this case, I would be surprised if a $1200 repair would have been covered by the insurance policy.
Rightrudder From United States, joined Aug 2008, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 182, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4148 times:
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 184): Only if the "at fault" party was willing to pay.... United was not willing to pay a cent. Thus, Dave (and anyone else in a similar situation) is out the cost of repairs or replacement up to whatever the deductable is on their insurance policy. While suing is an option - that takes considerable mental energy and time for several years. Not worth it in most cases.
You are missing the point altogether. His own insurance company would compensate him for the damaged equipment provided he met the deductible. Then it would be up to his insurance company to seek a demand on United's insurance which includes the recovery of the
Sponsor Message: 
From Germany, joined exactly 5 years ago today! 
, 5618 posts, 
From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 65 posts, 
From United States, joined May 2004, 2190 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 1713 posts, 
.gif){kind=small}
From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Aug 2006, 984 posts, 
From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 1189 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2003, 804 posts, 
Stuff like this happens on every airline, remember when DL and AAs employees were caught stealing out customers luggage? Its a bigger deal on this message board then anywhere else and while UA could have probably handled it better quite frankly we don't know UAs side of the story much less the truth (which isn't going to be UAs or this guys story.)
I am sure he buys an extra first class seat for his working tool.
From Brazil, joined Aug 2007, 8 posts, 
From Belgium, joined May 2008, 101 posts, ![_](javascript:compressPost('4477270','1','1','42','Thestooges',' " target=_blank>http://www.prostagegear.com/images/b...9.jpg Great explanation. So really, at the end of the day he should have been traveling with a','')){kind=link}