Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2183 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16041 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3): UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
Shouldn't matter. UA should be held responsible for all companies flying under their flags. The ticket has UA's name on it holding them responsible as to what happens on the entire trip. Plus I'm guessing 99% of your average passengers would get off a SkyWest/United flight and couldn't tell you they weren't actually on UA much less know the name of the airline actually flying. I don't see "SkyWest" counters at your average airport, or "Mesa" counters. UA would be taking care of this situation.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 440 posts, RR: 15 Reply 6, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16019 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3): This is good BUT by the way he presents his timeline, it looks like UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
"United Express breaks guitars" doesn't quite have the same ring to it, though.
Even if UA doesn't do the ground handling for UAX at ORD, if they contract it out, they need to make sure that the other companies working for them do their job correctly, and not throw the passengers' luggage around.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 465 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15976 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): Its just funny how airlines can't accept responsibility
Hate to say it, but you have to look in the contract of carriage to see if they are legally responsible. I don't know that they are. That said, that doesn't justify the handlers being reckless. Also, for public relations and customer happiness, sometimes an airline can give compensation when they don't actually have to.
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3): it looks like UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
Does it matter? Wouldn't UA still be the liable party? Is the Contract of Carriage different from UA to UAX?
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15965 times:
At the end of day, you should ALWAYS bring your musical instrument as a carry-on if you can. I understand that in this guys situation that he had more than one guitar and it would have been impossible to bring them both on board, but I would NEVER trust anyone to handle my instrument, no matter how cheap it is, or how hard the case is. Baggage handlers probably aren't paid a whole lot and they toss every other bag around, I feel bad for this guy about what happened to his guitar, but I'm not really surprised at all by the outcome. If something is valuable, you keep it on you, and if you can't do that on a plane then you rent a van and drive to your destination instead. If you're flying overseas and have five guitars and a drum kit you have no choice but allow someone else to handle those items, so you'll just have to take the risk or not go in the first place !!!
And any guitar in a hard case is going to look like something thats pretty valuable and if its checked-in, it might just dissapear !!! Sure, the airline might re-imburse you for it but any real musician knows that every guitar is very much a one-of-a-kind item and can never really be replaced. If you have a guitar, put it in a soft-case and bring it on board with you.
DescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15871 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 6): "United Express breaks guitars" doesn't quite have the same ring to it, though.
Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man. You know their are laywers out there that would make that argument.
Av8orwalk From United States, joined Nov 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15787 times:
131,000 views in a day? This video is going to be HUGE. I guess United had no idea this video was REALLY going to be produced. If they did, I'm sure $3,500 would've been pennies compare to the amount of revenue that could be lost because of this video.
It's a catchy tune! And a very well produced video.
Cheers!
Drew MCO
The safest place to be in an airplane crash is on the ground.
Doug_or From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2727 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15729 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3):
This is good BUT by the way he presents his timeline, it looks like UAX were the ones handling his guitar at the time.
I'm almost positive all UAL and UAX ground handling in ORD is done by mainline... and it shows.
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man. You know their are laywers out there that would make that argument.
And they would almost certainly lose. He bought a ticket on United. He flew on airplanes that said United. His guitar got broken. Unless it was TSA, United broke his Guitar. If you flew SEA-SFO on Alaska, could they claim they didn't handle your luggage, Menzies did? No, of course not.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 465 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15711 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Yes it does....... I know I wouldn't want to be grouped if I was working UA ramp and the said person was a Mesa employee.
It's not a matter of how the employees want to be grouped. It's a question of where the front-line legal liability lies. Outsourcing or contracting out some function does not relieve you of responsibility. The customer still goes to UA for compensation, and it's UA's brand name at stake.
That said, I don't think the terms of carriage entitle him to compensation. But he may get it anyway, at this point.
And just heard on the news, United will take another look at his claim.
Oh man, that is a great video! I am in no way a country fan, but this one has to be one of the best country videos out there. I say, UA, give him the fixin, or give him the money to fix his damn guitar! LOL!
If I was Glenny Boy Tilton, I would be raising an eyebrow and watching the video. I think he might be too busy trading oil stocks though.
Manfredj From United States, joined Mar 2007, 794 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15500 times:
Awesome! This just proves that all is not lost in the war of big business and "small time" customers. It doesn't mean that big business is bad, it just means they are not infallible. There has always been a problem with "personalized" customer care when a business gets as large as United. This should be a wake up call that the emphasis on taking care of your clients is just as important as ever.
Catchy tune. It's smooth, enjoyable and a classy way of making a point rather than resorting to lawsuits which only hurt everyone in the end. He will be compensated for his loss.
ACKattack From United States, joined Apr 2009, 21 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 months 3 days ago) and read 15420 times:
Quoting Fsnuffer (Reply 17): The story has now been posted on the front page of the Consumerist site. It is too late for United, the cat is out of the bag on this one
The possibly bigger issue for UA is that if this song becomes popular, it will probably be played at many live concerts, continuing the telling of this story and possibly doing alot of long term damage to their image
Falcon84 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 14842 posts, RR: 81 Reply 22, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15219 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 8): At the end of day, you should ALWAYS bring your musical instrument as a carry-on if you can.
Hard to do if it's on an RJ, unless they're small instruments. I've seen people with cello's and tuba's buy extra seats for the instruments. In any event, it is incumbent on the airline personel to handle those items with care. No excuse for having them break apart.
Spacecadet From United States, joined Sep 2001, 2038 posts, RR: 19 Reply 24, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15178 times:
My 2 cents:
1. He should have bought a flight case. This is why they exist. They're practically bomb-proof and bullet-proof. You don't put a regular guitar case in checked baggage. I seriously thought every guitarist knew that.
2. However stupid the guy was, that doesn't absolve United from responsibility, in the same way being stupid enough to take your money out to count it in a bad neighborhood does not absolve a thief from responsibility for stealing it.
3. This will be a PR nightmare for UA. This is already on Digg, it's on here, I'm sure it's on the guitar forums I read. 131,000 views already and no doubt that's going to double and triple in the next few days. They would have been a lot better off just paying him the $3,500. Now they're going to end up paying him that anyway *and* getting all the bad press. They could have at least avoided the bad PR if they'd just paid him to begin with.
I honestly hope this serves as a lesson to airlines that they need to be more careful with luggage, because you never know who you're messing with or what they can do to you.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
Silentbob From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Aug 2006, 959 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15141 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man. You know their are laywers out there that would make that argument.
And the airline would get tons of negative publicity every step of the way. The cost would be far worse than just paying the guy off.
that's an interesting legal question. I don't have the time to carefully read the contract of carriage or case law precedent to see how that would work.
IN any case, people should remember that there are two very different issues here:
- what UA should do, for good customer relations
- what UA has to do, legally, per the contract they have with their customers
It would be good to keep this in mind, when discussing.
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1665 posts, RR: 11 Reply 27, posted (4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15398 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Reply 19): Awesome! This just proves that all is not lost in the war of big business and "small time" customers.
Except to get satisfaction, you need to be a really good songwriter with a fanbase. Sad.
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 24):
1. He should have bought a flight case. This is why they exist. They're practically bomb-proof and bullet-proof. You don't put a regular guitar case in checked baggage. I seriously thought every guitarist knew that.
Do you know that he didn't do this? And even if he did...
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4): United breaks lots of things, especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases.
T5towbar From United States, joined Feb 2009, 154 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14696 times:
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 8):
At the end of day, you should ALWAYS bring your musical instrument as a carry-on if you can.
Hard to do if it's on an RJ, unless they're small instruments. I've seen people with cello's and tuba's buy extra seats for the instruments. In any event, it is incumbent on the airline personel to handle those items with care. No excuse for having them break apart.
That's true.
If he was flying on UAX, he was on one of those RJ's where you would have to gate check the item, and the ramp crew would have to handle it. Usually the gate agent would put a "special handling" tag to let the ramp know that that item should be handled with care. But it depends on the ramp crew on the ground, if they are attentive or not.
If it is a small instrument, I've seen the flight crew put a guitar in the crew compartment sometimes. But that's not often, if there is not a lot of room.
Still, as a ramp agent, you should take pride in your work and make sure stuff doesn't get broken or lost.
Type-Rated From United States, joined Sep 1999, 2236 posts, RR: 28 Reply 32, posted (4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13837 times:
I think we all should bombard UA e-mail addresses with this video, just to rub their noses in it.
I imagine some UA employees are actually laughing at it too.
If you think about it, this is just another "cry in your beer" country song...
I enjoyed it, you have to pay attention to the lyrics to get the most out of it. Wonderfully produced!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
Fair use excerpt from above link: "Complicating matters: He didn't file a claim within 24 hours, as United requires. Carroll said no United agents had been on duty when his plane landed in Omaha around midnight. He left early the next morning for a tour of Nebraska and didn't report the damage until he returned to the Omaha airport a week later."
If you want to get all "legalese", UA owes him nothing.
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4): United breaks lots of things, especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases. They've busted three of mine and that's why I refuse to fly them.
Quoting Manfredj (Reply 19): Awesome! This just proves that all is not lost in the war of big business and "small time" customers. It doesn't mean that big business is bad, it just means they are not infallible.
UA cracked a Delsey hardside bag of mine a couple of years ago while returning to BWI (from AUA, via ORD). I returned the following morning, filed a claim and a few weeks later after UA sent the bag out to try to repair it (no chance that was going to happen), I was informed that they would replace the bag at full *retail* value.
Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 32): I think we all should bombard UA e-mail addresses with this video, just to rub their noses in it.
Yeah, that's a great idea (sigh)...
777fan
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" - Edmund Burke
Simpilot459 From United States, joined Sep 2005, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 13480 times:
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4): especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases
Are you talking about the hard plastic ones? When I worked baggage, those were the worst. they don't stack well and they slide easily, which causes things to move around more in flight.
I always tried to make sure I was careful with things like guitars, bicycles, golf clubs, etc. and when things had to be gate checked, I always asked if there were any breakables such as laptops. Definitely try to take valuable/breakable things as carry-on. Even if they must be gate checked, they end up on top where they are less likely to get crushed, and don't have to go through the entire baggage belt system. Less chance for something to go wrong.
You put it in a padded gig bag, and then you put *that* into another case made of 1/8" steel and wood and protected by rubberized foam on all sides.
The other obvious way to know that he did not use a flight case is that the way he knew United was throwing it around was from other passengers saying "look, they're throwing guitars!" As you can see below, when a flight case is closed, most people are not going to have any inkling of what it is. I'm a guitarist and even I wouldn't be sure if this was a guitar or a set of photographic equipment, which ship in the exact same type of case.
Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 4):
United breaks lots of things, especially those bullet-proof japanese suitcases.
I own three of those "bullet-proof" Japanese suitcases and they are hardly as tough as a guitar flight case. (My wife is Japanese and two of our suitcases are technically hers; the third we just bought last month in Tokyo because we ran out of suitcase space.) They're just thin plastic suitcases. They are made mainly for domestic Japan travel - they're intended for protecting your clothes and camera and whatever through *normal* handling (which is what they do in Japan).
A guitar flight case is something else entirely. You're talking about the difference between a Jeep Wrangler and a US Army Humvee. Yes, they are superficially similar, but one is built for regular light consumer use and the other is built to withstand any amount of hardcore abuse short of an IED (and maybe even beyond that, depending on the armor plating - that goes for guitar flight cases too).
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
Fsnuffer From United States, joined Jun 2007, 115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13067 times:
According to this guy he has said there was going to be three videos. The first is done and the second is close to wrap and he said the third is upto United. Since we are all experts here on everithing from aviation to marital advice, what would we suggest United do for the third video. A cameo for Tilton, Gettelfinger singing about customer service, customers not whining about pretzels and peanuts. Wide open field here.
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2679 posts, RR: 19 Reply 38, posted (4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13050 times:
Quoting 777fan (Reply 33): If you want to get all "legalese", UA owes him nothing.
I think UAL would be stupid to pay him anything at this point. The damage has been done. If they pay out its sends a message that they will pay out to those who publicly harass them even if UAL doesn't owe them. What good would it do UAL at this point to pay. I can't think of one good reason for them to.
I don't think this guy packed the guitar properly. I used to handle bags. We never purposely roughly handled bags however things happen bags fall and shift and you have to heave them sometimes to get them into place or off the belt. Sturdy squared off bags with flat sides and handles on most edges with recessed wheels load best and are least likely to get damaged. They have to be stacked if it's shaped like a brick it stacks better. Insturments should be properly packed in appropriate travel cases, taken on as carryon or placed in a purchased seat.
Aircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 636 posts, RR: 2 Reply 39, posted (4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12968 times:
I really whish there was at least ONE airline that would take the time to sit down with musicians, listen to how we would like our instruments be taken care of, write down a protocol about how they will treat instruments, provide information to at least one or two rampers at each airport, make one person responsible at each airport, and then contact the AFM (American Federation of Musicians). I bet every travelling member would go with that airline.
Aeropix From United States, joined Jun 2005, 17 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12959 times:
NOT Original at all...
In the 1984 Album "One Million Lawyers and Other Disasters" comedy folk singer TOM PAXTON sang a rousing complaint about Republic Airlines RC breaking the neck on his guitar. Here is the final refrain from his hilarius rant "Thank You Republic Airlines"...
Thank you, Republic Airlines, for splintering the neck on my guitar!
My guitar case was so strong that nothing could go through it,
Way to go Republic, only you could do it,
Crash bang, Republic Airlines, in the field of demolition, you'll go far!
For you took it as a challenge when I turned in my case.
and you saw the fragile stickers glued all over the place,
May a team of mad flamenco dancers do to your face
What you did to the neck on my guitar!
There could no satisfaction greater than if,
You should be the next to go the way of Braniff!
A little piece of airline history for us Aviation geeks.
According to that article, somebody at UAL said they'd use the music video internally as some sort of lesson for their customer service people.
Whether that is true or not, UAL's public attitude has been pretty humble on this one, once the guy went public. At least they recognise they've got a PR problem here.
You put it in a padded gig bag, and then you put *that* into another case made of 1/8" steel and wood and protected by rubberized foam on all sides.
The other obvious way to know that he did not use a flight case is that the way he knew United was throwing it around was from other passengers saying "look, they're throwing guitars!" As you can see below, when a flight case is closed, most people are not going to have any inkling of what it is. I'm a guitarist and even I wouldn't be sure if this was a guitar or a set of photographic equipment, which ship in the exact same type of case.
Great explanation. So really, at the end of the day he should have been traveling with a flight case, because even with extreme care being taken by the baggage handlers . . .
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): things happen bags fall and shift and you have to heave them sometimes to get them into place or off the belt.
I'm pretty sure he had put his guitar in a hard shelled case, and even though supposedly the baggage handlers were being quite rough with it, it still could have ended up being damaged completely by accident. At the end the day it's this guys fault for not ensuring his guitar was packed safely, and if he had done that, then he would have saved himself a WHOLE lot of hassle (but I bet he's getting a lot of publicity for his little ditty, so maybe he's actually benefited from this in the end).
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): Insturments should be properly packed in appropriate travel cases, taken on as carryon or placed in a purchased seat.
IRelayer From United States, joined Jul 2005, 916 posts, RR: 2 Reply 43, posted (4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12799 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 5): Shouldn't matter. UA should be held responsible for all companies flying under their flags. The ticket has UA's name on it holding them responsible as to what happens on the entire trip. Plus I'm guessing 99% of your average passengers would get off a SkyWest/United flight and couldn't tell you they weren't actually on UA much less know the name of the airline actually flying. I don't see "SkyWest" counters at your average airport, or "Mesa" counters. UA would be taking care of this situation.
Very true. After all, it is SkyWest doing business as United Express. This would imply to me United is responsible for all conduct of SkyWest and their employees while dba United Express.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 440 posts, RR: 15 Reply 45, posted (4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12351 times:
Quoting 777fan (Reply 33):
If you want to get all "legalese", UA owes him nothing.
Sure, but if you want to get all "good customer service", they should have taken care of this guy instead of giving him the runaround and ticking him off. I mean, if the guy's story is true and the baggage handlers were actually throwing the instruments around, that's pretty bad behavior.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): I think UAL would be stupid to pay him anything at this point. The damage has been done.
I don't think so. As this thing continues to gain notice and publicity, "United eventually made amends by offering [free flight vouchers/a new guitar/whatever]" is a much more positive coda to the story than "United still refuses to compensate the songwriter for the damage". Plus, the guy has promised to make two more videos about it.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 41): According to that article, somebody at UAL said they'd use the music video internally as some sort of lesson for their customer service people.
Whether that is true or not, UAL's public attitude has been pretty humble on this one, once the guy went public. At least they recognise they've got a PR problem here.
See, they got it... Eventually. I'm sure they'll give this guy something for his trouble.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 42): Insturments should be properly packed in appropriate travel cases, taken on as carryon or placed in a purchased seat.
Exactly, couldn't agree with you more !!!
Sure, *ideally* he would have a flight case, but that doesn't excuse the baggage handlers for literally throwing baggage, and especially obviously fragile items like musical instruments.
Pellegrine From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1098 posts, RR: 1 Reply 47, posted (4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12269 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 29): The song and video were just featured on CNN... I'm sure this will get at least a million hits over the next week or so.
HarrisonRuess From Canada, joined Sep 2008, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11960 times:
Quoting Av8orwalk (Reply 12): 131,000 views in a day? This video is going to be HUGE.
It's nearly at a 1/4 million views now.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): I don't think this guy packed the guitar properly. I used to handle bags. We never purposely roughly handled bags however things happen bags fall and shift and you have to heave them sometimes to get them into place or off the belt.
While I entirely agree that shift inevitably happens with luggage; things get bumped about, etc - this story here is an entirely different issue.
From all accounts, the baggage was being thrown around (which has nothing to do with it bumping around on a conveor or with other luggage).
Could he have bought a bomb-proof case for his guitar? Sure. I bet in fact that he owns one now. But, really, you shouldn't have to. Something like a guitar/guitar case is fairly recognizable as such, and handlers ought to take a reasonable amount of care (i.e. don't play football with it). And, hard surface guitar cases aren't exactly cardboard to begin with.
IMO from an editorial perspective, as much as it's a catchy song, and "little guy takes on big bad company" work here for publicity, the line that makes it all work is, "My god they're throwing guitars!" That really sets this story apart from the usual damaged luggage stories.
I do imagine UA will try to salvage some sort of positive PR out of this situation, although as some have said, it might be hard to do that at this point.
Theredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 1172 posts, RR: 5 Reply 49, posted (4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11803 times:
I have 2 Ibanez Jem guitars one cost 2300 and the other 3400, both come with professional hard cases. Well I brought them from California on the overhead compartment since the dimensions fit exactly those compartments (I did not believe it but they fit there perfectly)
Anyways a friend of mine bought one similar like mine and flew Delta, the case arrived like it had been shipped from Iraq, and yes the neck was broken.
I bet United will pay. If they are stupid enough to let this guy to make the other 2 videos they will loose even more than 3500.
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2679 posts, RR: 19 Reply 50, posted (4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10807 times:
Quoting HarrisonRuess (Reply 48): Could he have bought a bomb-proof case for his guitar? Sure.
No one is suggesting a bomb proof case. Merely a suitable TRAVEL case for when he TRAVELs. That is called packing your belongings responsibly. It is not excessive.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 45): "United eventually made amends by offering [free flight vouchers/a new guitar/whatever]" is a much more positive coda to the story than "United still refuses to compensate the songwriter for the damage".
I disagree the coda will be If you have the money, talent and resources to publicly humiliate United you will get your money back everyone else is still SOL.
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 45): Plus, the guy has promised to make two more videos about it.
He could make thousands. The damage is done with the first one. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
Quoting HarrisonRuess (Reply 48): From all accounts, the baggage was being thrown around
Unless you want to wait hours for your luggage or for your bags to missconnect that is they are going to get tossed and heaved around. They are going to get swung from the belt to the carts. With a properly packed bag the contents will not be damaged by this NORMAL handling. Yes it is normal.
Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 49): I bet United will pay. If they are stupid enough to let this guy to make the other 2 videos they will loose even more than 3500.
The damage is done it doesn't make an iota of difference now if they pay.
Speedbird128 From South Africa, joined Oct 2003, 784 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10686 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 38): We never purposely roughly handled bags
As an air traffic controller in a tower which was alongside the ramp, i have witness willful and intentional abuse and destruction of people luggage / baggage. Some rampers think "FRAGILE" means "KICK HERE". It was reported, nothing happened. I *NEVER* check in anything that's breakable.
Goldenshield From United States, joined Jan 2001, 4004 posts, RR: 13 Reply 53, posted (4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10220 times:
Quoting IRelayer (Reply 43): Very true. After all, it is SkyWest doing business as United Express. This would imply to me United is responsible for all conduct of SkyWest and their employees while dba United Express.
As stated before, even IF SkyWest was flying the flight, it was NOT that company's rampers that caused the issue, because they don't exist at ORD. It was that United MAINLINE rampers that run the express gates that are the cause of this issue.
"I heard that there are rumors on the internets" -- G. W. Bush at the second 2004 debate
JohnMKE From United States, joined Jun 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9847 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 6): Even if UA doesn't do the ground handling for UAX at ORD, if they contract it out, they need to make sure that the other companies working for them do their job correctly, and not throw the passengers' luggage around
Quoting Doug_or (Reply 13): I'm almost positive all UAL and UAX ground handling in ORD is done by mainline... and it shows.
Quoting United1 (Reply 23): UA Mainline handles UAX ground operations at ORD....
Proves that the Union United Ramp Employees that are getting paid $15.00 plus an hour are really makeing there pay....United shoud contract thier ground handling out that could do three things. 1.Save money 2.Have employees that have to answer for what they do (no union proteciton of worthless employees) 3.Improve the ground handling costomer service.
Quoting IRelayer (Reply 43): Very true. After all, it is SkyWest doing business as United Express. This would imply to me United is responsible for all conduct of SkyWest and their employees while dba United Express.
It should be also said that it is United Employees at the ticket counter. Although the rumor is that Skywest plans to do above and below wing operaiton on all United Express at ORD (They have placed a bid for Terminal 2), until that happenes that won't be a change.
ANOTHER NOTE:
What are you doing checking Musicial Instruments anyway, when you can ship via cargo when it can be insured and delivered directly to your theater or bar where you would be playing in.
If something is so important to you why not pay the extra price to insure it with the airline. I'm sure that is one of the reasons that United is giving the guy so much problems. I know I would love to brake my old guitar, put it in a case, and then try to get a new one so United could pay for it.
If anyone has worked in the baggage proccessing, they would know that bags get banged around not just in the aircraft, the carts/cans, but in the belt system also.
AndyinPIT From United States, joined Sep 2007, 154 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9572 times:
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): Proves that the Union United Ramp Employees that are getting paid $15.00 plus an hour are really makeing there pay
its, making their pay...
And how do you know that they had 7 years with the company? (thats how long it takes to make $15 an hour with United) How did you know they weren't making $8.70, the rate new hires are making? I get really tired of reading posts by people who have nothing to do with the aviation industry thinking all ramp workers are these dumb group of people. I worked for United for nearly 5 years and now am an air traffic controller? What, are controllers idiots too? Should we not make the money we make? Why dont you go put in 5-10 years at an airline and see just how hard it is.
Oh, and Air Wisconsin damaged my bag 2 weeks ago, I'm in the process of making a song and crying about it
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 58, posted (4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9447 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 45): Sure, *ideally* he would have a flight case, but that doesn't excuse the baggage handlers for literally throwing baggage, and especially obviously fragile items like musical instruments.
But there are idiots out there everywhere, its more a case of not entrusting your valuable items with anyone else but yourself and taking the necessary steps to prevent damage to your valuables if the event they do happen to encounter idiots, like putting your guitar in a proper flight case.
Quoting HarrisonRuess (Reply 48): From all accounts, the baggage was being thrown around (which has nothing to do with it bumping around on a conveor or with other luggage).
But how can anyone prove that this is what actually broke his guitar, all that I can get from the story (maybe I'm missing something) is that passengers on the aircraft saw the baggage handlers throwing the guitars, which although is very irresponsible, does not actually mean that they dropped them and they hit the ground or that they were caught in such a way that caused damage. If no one actually saw the guitars hit the ground after the handlers were throwing them, it could be quite possible that something else cased them to break. He said he only looked at this guitar the next day after he arrived in Omaha, maybe it had broken at some point well after his flight was over, and just because he happened to see the handlers throwing his guitar, he just assumed that this is what must have caused the damage ???
Lets say it was damaged at some other point during his flight. like on the conveyor belt or due to shifting aorund during the flight, is UA still responsible for it then ???
I only just realized now that they guitar in question was $3,500 Taylor Acoustic guitar. I mean, to check an instrument like that onto an aircraft and not in a proper flight case is just stupid. Like he said in his video, he should have drove instead !!!!
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): I know I would love to brake my old guitar, put it in a case, and then try to get a new one so United could pay for it.
It is actually possible that he dropped the guitar himself, knowing quite well that it was damaged, and then used the whole baggage handler throwing thing to try to scam the airline to buy him a new guitar. Yes, it is unlikey but there are many people out there who try to pull these scams each and every day, and I'm sure UA knows about them only all too well.
Joeljack From United States, joined Feb 2005, 520 posts, RR: 1 Reply 59, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9252 times:
I fly United a ton and have NEVER has any baggage issue at DEN. 100% arrival rate...undamaged. My issues with bags not making my flights etc have always came transferring in Chicago. It happens to me about 1 out of every 10 trips through ORD, never any damage though.
Off the topic but I've found the opposite holds true for Customer service reps. Generally outstanding in ORD and very accommodating. Had several bad experiences in DEN though with rude agents not will to do what I would like. I've also had some great experiences in DEN though...it's just more hit or miss than ORD.
SeeTheWorld From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1080 posts, RR: 6 Reply 60, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9241 times:
To all you that suggest he should have packed it better ... that may be so. But the airline should never accept checked luggage that is not OBVIOUSLY properly packed. A guitar is recognizable to everyone. Whether he should have packed it correctly or not is completely irrelevant at this point. I suspect that this video has more to do with the way he was treated by customer service over A FULL YEAR then with the actual incident. Had United shown some humility in the first place and treated him a bit more like a customer, some compromise could have been made.
Having said that, in the age of instant communication, youtube, and the internet, you'd think that someone in Customer Relations at a huge company would consider that a MUSICIAN who had a following would be someone you don't want to "blow off." Hence, the hilarious video which is going VIRAL.
United will pay because if they don't, he will continue to write songs ...
I don't fly them a lot, but have checked golf clubs (SFO-HNL/OGG) before and never had an issue. Hope there was no malicious intent with the accusations made.
JohnMKE From United States, joined Jun 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9231 times:
Quoting AndyinPIT (Reply 57): I get really tired of reading posts by people who have nothing to do with the aviation industry thinking all ramp workers are these dumb group of people
I have 11 years in the industry, and 8 of them have been working on the ramp or supervising a ramp. At no time did I indicate that I thought ramp employees were dumb. Related I had a typo, you must feel better for correcting it.
Jawake From United States, joined Sep 2007, 251 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9226 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 60):
United will pay because if they don't, he will continue to write songs ...
On the website he has promised 3 songs.....
To date I have written “United: Song 1” and “United: Song 2” and I’m proud to now release the first video in the trilogy. The response has been incredible so far. Everyone involved in the recording of the track and filming/editing of the video has volunteered their time and pre-production work is underway for the filming of United: Song 2 (hopefully to be released later this summer).
United has demonstrated they know how to keep their airline in the forefront of their customer’s minds and I wanted this project to expand upon that satirically. I’ve been done “being angry” for quite some time and, if anything, I should thank United. They’ve given me a creative outlet that has brought people together from around the world. We had a pile of laughs making the recording and the video while the images are spinning on how to make “United: Song 2” even better than the first. So, thanks United! If my guitar had to be smashed due to extreme negligence I’m glad it was you that did it. Now sit back and enjoy the show.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 440 posts, RR: 15 Reply 64, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9174 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 58):
But there are idiots out there everywhere, its more a case of not entrusting your valuable items with anyone else but yourself and taking the necessary steps to prevent damage to your valuables if the event they do happen to encounter idiots, like putting your guitar in a proper flight case.
No one is disagreeing with you that he should have had a flight case. But just because he didn't have one, it doesn't mean he deserved to get his guitar broken. Just because you find yourself in a bad neighborhood, even if you know that crime is more likely to occur there, that doesn't mean that you deserve to get robbed.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 58): It is actually possible that he dropped the guitar himself, knowing quite well that it was damaged, and then used the whole baggage handler throwing thing to try to scam the airline to buy him a new guitar.
Sure, anything is possible I suppose. But if he alerted the flight attendents at the time, and then followed up with the airline, calling and jumping through hoops for a whole year, and then went to the effort of making multiple videos about it, that lends a bit of credibility to his story.
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3074 posts, RR: 4 Reply 65, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9173 times:
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): United shoud contract thier ground handling out that could do three things. 1.Save money 2.Have employees that have to answer for what they do (no union proteciton of worthless employees)
Union or non-Union on United, Southwest, American or any other airline on the planet baggage handlers break things mostly by accident but sometimes willfully. I was on a Southwest, an airline known for having great customer service and supposedly caring employees, flight 6 or 7 years ago and upon arrival at OAK saw baggage handlers unloading boxes marked fragile by throwing them 3 or 4 feet onto a cart. It happens sometimes and remember this is his side of the story not UAs and almost certainly not exactly what happened. My guess is UA will pay him off, well more likely UAs insurance company, and as a condition of the payoff those songs will magically disappear.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 66, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9182 times:
After re-reading the Chicago Tribune story . . . even though there were no UA agents to report the damage to when he arrived in OMA, would it have been so hard for him to drive back to the airport in the morning to try to make the claim, or at least try to call within the 24 hour period required ??? It seems incredibly negligent on his part that he waited a whole week until he returned to OMA to make the claim. In a very serious incident like this, where a $3,500 guitar was damaged quite badly, you need to do whatever it takes to show someone at the airline as soon as possible, even if that means having to drive back to the airport the next morning and possibly delaying the start of your tour etc. If he had done this, I don't think there would have been any problems. Yes, s**t happens, but he just didn't follow up and deal with the situation effectively. If returning to the airport the next day incurred costs for him, then he surely could have claimed them back from UA, as there should have been an agent at the airport to report the incident to when he arrived the night before.
I understand that from UA's point of view, anything over 24 hours is going to be a bit too late. If the guy shows up a week later and says "my guitar is broken", how is anyone going to be able to prove that it was in fact broken by the airline an entire week ago !!! And if there was absolutely no way that he could return to the airport the next day, then he should have done all he could to get in contact by phone to report the incident so at least there was a record of it somewhere.
At the end of the day, or at least as far as I'm concerned, it appears that there is absolutely no proof that the baggage handlers throwing his guitar is what caused the damage. It could have happened at any other stage of the journey, and honestly it really doesn't have anything to do with the situation. It's just sensationalism (but it does make for a pretty good song however !!!) Basically he checked his guitar in on United and when he picked it upon completion of his journey it was broken. There was no one working for UA when he arrived to report the incident to and instead of returning to the airport the next day he drove off to start his tour and failed to contact the airline by phone, therefore breaching the 24 hour condition of his contract.
Seems like a very open and shut case to me, and this is why he probably hasn't taken legal action and just decided to write a song about it instead !!!
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 465 posts, RR: 1 Reply 67, posted (4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9152 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 60): But the airline should never accept checked luggage that is not OBVIOUSLY properly packed.
They can accept it, but they should inform the passenger of the terms of liability up front, so there is no confusion later.
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 54): If something is so important to you why not pay the extra price to insure it with the airline.
For whatever it's worth, it sounds like he did have it insured. The insurance paid for a replacement; he wanted UAL to pay for the repairs on the original, since he likes the original.
SeeTheWorld From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1080 posts, RR: 6 Reply 68, posted (4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9100 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 66): Seems like a very open and shut case to me, and this is why he probably hasn't taken legal action and just decided to write a song instead !!!
Except all of that doesn't matter. The reason that it has blown up in United's face is because they subsequently handled the issue poorly. We have no idea why it took him a week to report back to United, but the fact that there were no UA officials in Nebraska at arrival was not his fault. He was also on a week-long tour that may have been extremely busy, and btw, one of his guitars was smashed. He may have been spending his free time trying to get a replacement guitar. Regardless, rules such as contact UA within 24 hours are practical to weed out the BS. That doesn't mean that it makes good business sense to enforce the letter of the law to a "T". Employees are trained to do their jobs and enforce procedures, but they should also be trained to identify situations that may require some flexibility - it's called training your people to THINK!!!!! Anyone can enforce regulations, but when you are in customer service, you need to be able to know the difference between strict enforcement and flexibility.
United is my carrier of choice for a number of reasons. I do not believe they are the best or even remotely close, and I hate to see any airline get bad press. BUT, I also get tired of employess not earning their pay whether it's throwing passengers guitars around on the tarmac or ignoring a valid customer complaint. United blew it here and now they have to suffer the consequences. It's all about managing the damage at this point.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 70, posted (4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8929 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): the fact that there were no UA officials in Nebraska at arrival was not his fault
No that was not his fault, but it was his fault that he didn't return to the airport the following day to report it within the 24 hour period stated in his contract.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): He was also on a week-long tour that may have been extremely busy, and btw, one of his guitars was smashed. He may have been spending his free time trying to get a replacement guitar.
I assume he spent the night in a hotel in Omaha after he arrived there. I don't see how returning to the airport would have been such a huge deal, but for some reason he didn't do it. Thats why the airline gives a whole 24 hours for him to report the incident. The fact that he made no attempt to contact them by phone the next day is also very irresponsible on his part.
The airline will take responsibility for transporting your baggage and will also pay re-imbursement but only under certain conditions i.e. specifically the conditions that are set out in the contract that they have provided for the customer.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): rules such as contact UA within 24 hours are practical to weed out the BS. That doesn't mean that it makes good business sense to enforce the letter of the law to a "T". Employees are trained to do their jobs and enforce procedures, but they should also be trained to identify situations that may require some flexibility - it's called training your people to THINK!!!!! Anyone can enforce regulations, but when you are in customer service, you need to be able to know the difference between strict enforcement and flexibility.
Yes, but imagine if someone showed up at the customer service desk at OMA and said, "I flew in here a week ago, my guitar was broken when I picked it up. There were no agents to report it to opon arrival, but I did not return the next day to report it nor have I made any attempts at communication with the airline since then", like I said before, it had been a whole week, and there was no way that anyone at UA could actually know that his guitar was actually damaged when he said it was !!!
There are some situations like this where you really have no choice but to enforce the letter of the law down to a very large "T", and this looks like it was definitely one of them. Thats why you have contracts and rules and regulations, because when you have a situation like this, when you really have no idea of what actually happened, those are the things that you have no choice but to fall back on in order to make the final decision.
Sometimes its the customer trying to screw the companies and not the other way around, and United has every right to protect itself by putting these contracts in place as well as strictly enforcing them.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 68): United blew it here and now they have to suffer the consequences
Well no I think the customer blew it, but he sure is making it look like UA blew it and yes I'm sure they will suffer the consequences of him pointing the finger at them. Yes they broke his guitar, but accidents happen, sometimes you have very negligent staff, in fact all companies do, but they also would have happily re-imbursed him if he had followed the correct procedures.
But such is the airline industry !!! Disasters happen all the time, and much bigger ones than this including where planes crash and people die. United is a BIG airline, and when you are a big as they are you are going to have A LOT of problems, and this is just one of them. Yes this will cause them some PR damage but this stuff happens, and thats just life, but I'm sure the people at United will be able to deal with it.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 465 posts, RR: 1 Reply 71, posted (4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8875 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 70): No that was not his fault, but it was his fault that he didn't return to the airport the following day to report it within the 24 hour period stated in his contract.
Is it reasonable to assume that everybody has the opportunity to do so? You don't know if he's busy the whole next day; you don't know if he's got to drive 200 miles to some other place the next day... If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
All that said, the airlines should know that nobody reads the terms in the contract of carriage. IF there is a possible issue, the airline should notify the pax ahead of time - say, hey, the way your guitar is packed, something may happen, and we aren't going to fix it.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 72, posted (4 months 2 days ago) and read 8812 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): Is it reasonable to assume that everybody has the opportunity to do so? You don't know if he's busy the whole next day; you don't know if he's got to drive 200 miles to some other place the next day... If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
Yes it does make life difficult, but if he wants to be re-imbursed, then that is what he has to
do !!!
And how hard is it make one phone call, or maybe even a few??? There's absolutely no excuse on his part for not doing so !!!
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): All that said, the airlines should know that nobody reads the terms in the contract of carriage
Well they don't write terms in the contract for the fun of it, they're there for a reason, to very much legally protect their asses when a situation like this arises. If the customer doesn't read them, thats fine, but then thats their problem and not the airlines.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 465 posts, RR: 1 Reply 73, posted (4 months 2 days ago) and read 8792 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 72): Yes it does make life difficult, but if he wants to be re-imbursed, then that is what he has to
do !!!
If you set some restriction on the customer, you have to give them a reasonable chance at fulfilling it. I think keeping the claims desk manned while flights are still coming in is part of that.
Agreed that he could have called somebody.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 72): Well they don't write terms in the contract for the fun of it, they're there for a reason, to very much legally protect their asses when a situation like this arises. If the customer doesn't read them, thats fine, but then thats their problem and not the airlines.
Legally, yes. But your goal in running an airline is to make a profit, not to win every legal argument with your customers. Sometimes this can mean giving compensation when you don't have to. Heck, just give the guy some frequent flyer miles, if you don't want to give cash. It can also mean taking steps to avoid the problem in the first place, by educating the customer on the terms he is implicitly agreeing to.
ChrisNH From United States, joined Jun 1999, 3155 posts, RR: 3 Reply 74, posted (4 months 2 days ago) and read 8771 times:
Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10): Still if its the case, they (UA) could have some sort of slander case against the man.
If he didn't 'name names' of the baggage handlers, who's the plaintiff? The only name that I saw in the video was some customer service woman. If she said 'No,' then the video wasn't slandering her.
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1665 posts, RR: 11 Reply 75, posted (4 months 2 days ago) and read 8717 times:
Quoting Fxramper (Reply 55): Never heard of this guy or his 'band'.
You have now! Different paths to fame. I like the music, as it turns out.
Quoting Fxramper (Reply 55): UA can furlough a few more FA and pay him for his guitars.
Or, perhaps, avoid the extreme you suggest, encourage better baggage handling among its workers, and perhaps avoid 100s of thousands in damage or replacement claims. Make that a marketing centerpiece. Cater to people concerned about their luggage. Gain more customers. Just a suggestion.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 66): would it have been so hard for him to drive back to the airport in the morning to try to make the claim, or at least try to call within the 24 hour period required ???
I can see numerous scenarios where there just isn't time to do this. He and his band are on tour, it's fast paced, maybe his small band doesn't have more than one manager/handler. You can't just hold up a tour or your band to pursue a damagen claim for a day on the phone or at the airport. Maybe he (naively) assumed that it could be taken care of afterwords. What if you are on a package tour, do you stay behind with your luggage claim while the rest of the vacationers move on? What if you are on a honeymoon with all kinds of reservations booked ahead? What if you are on a fast-paced multicity business hop? Seems something could be handled without the hardline enforcement, leaving the customer happy and the airline no worse for wear.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 77, posted (4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8604 times:
Quoting Rampart (Reply 76): You can't just hold up a tour or your band to pursue a damagen claim for a day on the phone or at the airport.
Well I don't think it would have taken anywhere near a whole day. If he had tried to call, I'm sure it wouldn't have been that straightforward, it might have taken him half an hour, maybe a more, maybe he would have been put on hold few times, had to explain his story a few times, maybe given a few different numbers to call etc. But regardless, it looks like he didn't even bother. From my point of view, if I had a $3,500 guitar damaged by an airline I would positively do everything I could to let them now about it ASAP.
Quoting Rampart (Reply 76): Maybe he (naively) assumed that it could be taken care of afterwords.
I definitely think this was most likely his frame of mind at the time. "Naivety", such a lovely word isn't it ??? Sure doesn't last too long once you start travelling. I bet this guy will do whatever it takes in the future to avoid his guitar being damaged, and if a similar situation arises, he'll makes sure he lets the airline know within 24 hours !!!
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 77): Quoting Thestooges (Reply 70):
Well no I think the customer blew it,
LOL - I don't even think United would agree with that statement at this point.
Well, at this stage UA are of course going to say that they "blew it" for PR purposes, what they really think is probably another story. Accidents do happen, and things get broken but if anything is their fault its not having a customer service agent on duty when the flight arrived in OMA.
SeeTheWorld From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1080 posts, RR: 6 Reply 78, posted (4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8517 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 78): Well, at this stage UA are of course going to say that they "blew it" for PR purposes, what they really think is probably another story. Accidents do happen, and things get broken but if anything is their fault its not having a customer service agent on duty when the flight arrived in OMA.
Accidents do happen and customers understand that. We're saying the same things - i.e. it was the failure of UA's initial response that has caused the problem - whether it's not having a CSA in OMA, or failing to adequately deal with the situation post OMA. That is not the customers fault and that is why this story is going viral. If that is confusing to you then hopefully your profession doesn't include dealing with customers or running your own business.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 79, posted (4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8432 times:
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 79): We're saying the same things - i.e. it was the failure of UA's initial response that has caused the problem - whether it's not having a CSA in OMA, or failing to adequately deal with the situation post OMA.
Well no, we're not saying the same things. I agree that part of the blame should be placed on the airline for not having a CSA at OMA when the customer arrived. The largest part of the blame however, I think should be placed on the customer for taking a whole week to inform the airline of the damage. If he had called them within the 24 hour period, it's quite possible that he would have been able to explain his situation, been given a reference number, which he then could have quoted to a CSA when he returned to OMA in a weeks time so they knew he had been contact with airline much earlier.
Given the circumstances I think the airline dealt appropriately with the situation post OMA, they had absolutely no way of knowing whether the damage to his guitar had in fact occured on his flight into OMA or during the subsequent tour around Nebraska.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 79): If that is confusing to you then hopefully your profession doesn't include dealing with customers or running your own business.
Personally I find that statement rather insulting, as it is because of my very extensive customer service experience working in youth hostels/ backpackers all over the world for the past 7 years that I find grounds to make my comments. I have dealt with literally thousands upon thousands of travellers face to face, most of whom are quite young and have never travelled before, so they are usually much more naive then they guy we've been discussing. I regularly deal with situations like this each and every day, in fact in my present job as a manager of an incredibly busy 700 bed hostel in London, dealing with these situations is pretty what takes up most of my time. I have applied the logic that I have learned through all those years of interactions with customers to this specific scenario. Granted I don't work in the aviation industry itself, and I'm not sure how I would actually handle the situation if it was up to me to decide, but I'm just giving my opinion from my point of view, and seeing that I do work in the travel industry, which the airline industry is a part of, I would say that my point of view is fairly valid.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 80, posted (4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8371 times:
Actually from reading the article yet a 3rd time it does clearly say that he did not attempt to find a CSA agent in OMA to make a claim for his damaged guitar, but only to complain that he had seen baggage handlers throwing his guitar in ORD. Just because they were throwing it around definitely does not mean that it was damaged as a result and I see no mention of the fact that anyone ever saw them actually drop it. It was only later, after he had taken his guitar back to the hotel and after he had been picked up by the tour organisers the next day, that he realized that his guitar was damaged.
"He tried to speak with three different United employees in Chicago to complain and was told to take it up with staff in Omaha. When he arrived in that city, it was late and no United employees were around, so he went with his band to the hotel and slept. Tour promoters picked them up early the next morning, so he didn’t check out the damage until later.
"At the first show, I opened up the case and there was my guitar smashed to smithereens on the bottom," Mr. Carroll said."
He clearly says that the first time he even looked at this guitar was by the time he played his first show in Nebraska, almost a whole day later and after he had probably driven across half the state, so there were plenty of other opportunities where his guitar could have been damaged well after he finished his travel with UA. He just assumed that it was damaged when the baggage handlers were throwing it, but unfortunately this is impossible to prove.
So basically the guy is travelling with a $3,500 guitar, has put it in a case thats not suitable for travelling, sees baggage handlers throwing it around in ORD which causes him great concern, so much so that he attempts to find a CSA to make a complaint to when he arrives in OMA and yet doesn't even inspect his guitar when he picks it up off the carousel to see if it was damaged, instead waiting a whole day later to do so !!!
I don't know, there's just something awfully strange about this whole story, maybe because I don't have all the correct facts in front of me, but regardless, it just doesn't seem right.
FlyDeltaJets87 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 4491 posts, RR: 23 Reply 81, posted (4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8308 times:
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 50):
No one is suggesting a bomb proof case. Merely a suitable TRAVEL case for when he TRAVELs. That is called packing your belongings responsibly. It is not excessive.
I'm sorry, but if I'm now paying $25 each way per bag, they better handle my bags with care.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71):
Is it reasonable to assume that everybody has the opportunity to do so? You don't know if he's busy the whole next day; you don't know if he's got to drive 200 miles to some other place the next day... If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
That I agree with.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): All that said, the airlines should know that nobody reads the terms in the contract of carriage. IF there is a possible issue, the airline should notify the pax ahead of time - say, hey, the way your guitar is packed, something may happen, and we aren't going to fix it.
This I do not. That's not the responsibility of the airline. When you purchase a ticket online, you have to check a box that says "I have read the Terms of Contract" or something to that effect. If the customer checks the box but hasn't really read the terms, that's the passenger's fault.
I guess this begs the question though - will United break my golf clubs next week going up to Alaska?
IAirAllie From United States, joined May 2004, 2679 posts, RR: 19 Reply 82, posted (4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8249 times:
Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 69): Well when normal behaviour results in damage (to either the suitcase or its contents), then perhaps 'normal' needs to be reviewed...
This normal behavior doesn't cause damage to properly packed items. It only damages items that aren't properly packed like this guitar.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 71): If nobody is at the baggage claims desk when he arrives, it makes life rather difficult.
1) I find it hard to believe no one was there there is always someone there until the last bag is on the belt (someone has to be there to put the bags on the belt) at a small airport they may be at the counter or behind the scenes somewhere as they play multiple roles but if you are even a tiny bit patient you can track them down very easily.
2) he left without checking it the guitar. So if he had no reason at the point he left the airport to belive the guitar was broken (if he had he would have checked it there) why would he have looked for an agent? He only would have needed an agent if he already knew there was a problem. He didn't until the next day. I don't believe for a second he ever looked for an agent.
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 72): And how hard is it make one phone call, or maybe even a few??? There's absolutely no excuse on his part for not doing so !!!
Exactly.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 74): If you set some restriction on the customer, you have to give them a reasonable chance at fulfilling it. I think keeping the claims desk manned while flights are still coming in is part of that.
He did he never looked for an agent, he never tried calling while still at the airport. His claim there was no one there is a lie. See above.
The rule is fair you need to make an immediate claim. Other wise "OMG they are throwing guitars" or not he only has an assumption that the damage was done by UAL. His assumption doesn't make it so. He needs more than that for a claim he needs proof it was done while in UAL's care not at some point after he left. The only way to do that is to check it at the airport and notify someone ASAP.
What do you mean? Do you expect ramp supervisors to be present at all times with clip-boards in hand observing every single action by the ramp? Are you thinking the supervisors stepped away so the ramp decided, hey lets have some fun while the "boss" is gone?
Some things I find "fishy" with this story...
First of all, the woman that screamed may have been overracting after witnessing normal behavior. Most are jumping to the conclusion that they were recklessly throwing them as if they were playing some kind of sport with them. I have looked out terminal windows before and observed the ramp conducting normal business and heard passengers nearby talking sh*t about them because it looks to them like the ramp is being careless. The public just doesn't understand.
You put it in a padded gig bag, and then you put *that* into another case made of 1/8" steel and wood and protected by rubberized foam on all sides.
The other obvious way to know that he did not use a flight case is that the way he knew United was throwing it around was from other passengers saying "look, they're throwing guitars!" As you can see below, when a flight case is closed, most people are not going to have any inkling of what it is. I'm a guitarist and even I wouldn't be sure if this was a guitar or a set of photographic equipment, which ship in the exact same type of case.
Spacecadet is exactly right. The man described his guitar as being "smashed to smithereens." There is no way a guitar could be damaged to that extent if packed in a proper flight case. But there are many unintentional, accidental ways an accoustic guitar packed in a simple soft gig bag, which I see often, can be badly damaged. As a guitarist, I shake my head every time I see guitars packed like that.
But finally, the article mentions the guitar cost $1,200 for repairs. I don't think any guitar that has been damaged to the extent described by that comment can be repaired. If an instrument is broken to bits, it's pretty much totalled and the only thing to do at that point is replace it. But the fact that it was repaired tells me he embellished a bit when describing the damage. A small repair job can be an expensive repair job when a guitar costs $3,500 and cost also depends on what needs to be repaired. So the extent of the damage in my opinion is still debatable.
I will admit though that UA's customer service seems to have handled the situation poorly.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3227 posts, RR: 7 Reply 84, posted (4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8130 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 86): I will admit though that UA's customer service seems to have handled the situation poorly.
Understatement of the day!!
I will give the benefit of the doubt and say there is another side to this story that we are not hearing (UA's) but it does sound pretty bad. You can feel this guy's frustration.
I guess UA had two ways of looking at this situation now that it has blown up. They could ( a ) sue him for slander or ( b ) try and make better-late-than-never restitution and customer goodwill. I'd say they are in a pickle. If they went with a lawsuit, they better hope that he doesn't have proof of his runaround because he can sing all he wants if what happened actually happened. The defense against slander is truth... And with ( b ) I'm guessing its going to take a whole lot of money to settle with him now. If he can even be silenced. Honestly by coming out and addressing the issue head-on, I think UA have saved as much face as they can. Obviously it should not have happened.
I sure wouldn't want to be the UA Supervisor named in his song, a Ms. Irlweg.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 465 posts, RR: 1 Reply 85, posted (4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8049 times:
Since airlines love charging fees, I suggest a $15 "We'll be responsible for any damage to your guitar" fee. Actually, is it possible to buy insurance from the airline itself, or must you arrange it ahead of time?
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 82): That's not the responsibility of the airline. When you purchase a ticket online, you have to check a box that says "I have read the Terms of Contract" or something to that effect. If the customer checks the box but hasn't really read the terms, that's the passenger's fault.
Again, the goal of the airline is to be profitable, not to be legally correct in every dispute that comes up with the customer. If you can do something additional to prevent bigger problems later, that might be worthwhile for the bottom line. But that's for UAL to assess.
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 84): 1) I find it hard to believe no one was there there is always someone there until the last bag is on the belt (someone has to be there to put the bags on the belt)
I'll buy that. Sadly, we have no idea how much effort Mr. Guitar Player put into finding a UA rep.
Wn700driver From United States, joined Aug 2001, 890 posts, RR: 8 Reply 87, posted (4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8022 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 87):
I will give the benefit of the doubt and say there is another side to this story that we are not hearing (UA's) but it does sound pretty bad. You can feel this guy's frustration.
That's because they don't have a side. They destroyed property, for a fee no less, and botched a few opportunities to recover. Typical United. Anyway, they really can't sue him for slander. They don't have the facts on their side and they'll come out looking like hungry bullies.
And they screwed up any opportunities to settle the issue as well. This guy will make a lot more off the song than a company like UAL is capable of offering. If anything, he needs to see what he can do to litigate against them using his materiel for their training purposes. What a bunch of short sighted cretins. . .
Four billion years ago, the Earth was a ball of molten rock. Now, you can get the internet there.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 88, posted (4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7927 times:
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): They destroyed property, for a fee no less, and botched a few opportunities to recover. Typical United.
There is no way to prove that they did in fact destroy any property. Like I've said before in my above post, the damage to the guitar could very well have happened at any point between when the customer took it off the carousel at OMA and when he opened up the case the next day after travelling by road to the other side of Nebraska.
All this guy wants is for United to accept the blame and re-imburse him, even though it may have been him, another one of his band members or a roadie that actually broke the guitar.
It does appear he was given a bit of a run around by the airline when trying to make a claim much later, but as far as we know the majority of United employees that he spoke to could have been very helpful and friendly, but given the circumstances of the situation were simply unable to offer him any re-imbursement. This obviously wasn't the answer that he wanted to hear and therefore has chosen to demonize them all. I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but it's a possibility nonetheless.
This guy could very well be a total d**k but you wouldn't know this if you didn't meet him in person or at least spoke to him over the phone. There are plenty of customers out there who are in fact total asses and this guy could definitely be one of them !!! Should a company bend over backwards to people like this and offer compensation for something that might not even have been their fault in the first place. Definitely not !!!
Jolau1701 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 127 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7823 times:
Why assume UAX?
If it was any UAX aircraft except for the EMB170s, it would have been hard for him to see anything plane-side since the cargo pit is in the back unless he was exactly somewhere between rows 11 - 13 on the appropriate window side if he were on a CRJ200.
The only time he would have possibly seen the guitar is if he had it as a carry-on, and had to green-tagged and the ramp agents carried it to the back.
Also, if memory serves me right, UA's OMA operation is entirely Mainline UA too.
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3074 posts, RR: 4 Reply 90, posted (4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7800 times:
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): They destroyed property, for a fee no less, and botched a few opportunities to recover. Typical United.
uhem WN isn't much better.....there's a reason why I won't check a bag with them on any flight....Lets just say it involved crushing and my bag and trying to replace a $300 bag with a $50 one.... Stuff like this happens on every airline, remember when DL and AAs employees were caught stealing out customers luggage? Its a bigger deal on this message board then anywhere else and while UA could have probably handled it better quite frankly we don't know UAs side of the story much less the truth (which isn't going to be UAs or this guys story.)
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): Anyway, they really can't sue him for slander.
Anyone can sue anyone for anything isn't this country grand....
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): This guy will make a lot more off the song than a company like UAL is capable of offering.
No he won't, this isn't a song any record company is going to pick up and like I said earlier any offer from UA is more then likely going to include a clause that magically makes this song go away.
PlanesNTrains From United States, joined Feb 2005, 2196 posts, RR: 11 Reply 91, posted (4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7702 times:
Quoting United1 (Reply 93): Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90):
This guy will make a lot more off the song than a company like UAL is capable of offering.
No he won't, this isn't a song any record company is going to pick up and like I said earlier any offer from UA is more then likely going to include a clause that magically makes this song go away.
To be fair, I doubt anyone will choose to fly United specifically because of this incident, though a few might choose not to. But he doesn't need to sell a single copy of this song to come out ahead. While i was watching it on Youtube earlier today, my visiting mom heard him singing and now plans to buy a CD. So I think he will probably sell a few bucks worth just from the attention.
Iairallie From United States, joined May 2004, 2679 posts, RR: 19 Reply 92, posted (4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7670 times:
Quoting Wn700driver (Reply 90): Anyway, they really can't sue him for slander. They don't have the facts on their side and they'll come out looking like hungry bullies.
Actually the facts are on United´s side because mr. Guitar chose not to report it before leaving the airport. The excuse that no one was available is BULL because He even admitted he didn't look at the guitar until more than 24 hours had passed which makes the availablity of the rep completely irrelevant. You don't need a rep if you don't have any damage to report and when he was at the airport he was unaware there was damage. I'll be really disapointed in United if they capitulate.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 2772 posts, RR: 6 Reply 93, posted (4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7481 times:
It appears that most of you completely fail to understand that the main story is not about United breaking the guitar, but about the saga that came afterwards - amongst other things, that everybody contacted tried to make him speak to someone else rather than addressing the issue, that apparently he was given parrot talk over the phone etc. etc. The fact that quite a few folks here do exactly the same nitpicking that United apparently did speaks volumes.
United is in the business of satisfying customers and not losing them to the competition. That should be the benchmark. And because of that, they should not throw around luggage in full view of passengers (regardless whether it is properly packed or not), they should have a CSA available upon arrival of flights (regardless whether or not the guy had had a look at his guitar at this point), they should not refuse to let someone speak to a supervisor (regardless whether the guy is a pin or not), they should not give someone call-center parrot talk, they should never hide behind stuff like "it has United on it, but it actually just a franchisee", they should train their employees to never ever say "I am not in charge" etc etc.
In short, they deserve every bit of flak they are getting now - not because they were wrong and the guy was right in the first place, but because how they handled the whole thing.
By the way, this video now has 1.25 million hits at YouTube.
And when I checked the hits at YouTube, the most recent comment was this: "Thanks, I was just getting to book a trip to Hawaii on United. We just booked it on Delta instead. "
And immediately below: "Hey United? I had a round-trip flight from San Diego to Winnipeg booked for August with you. Guess what? I just cancelled it and rebooked it with someone else. There's no way I'm giving you my money for treating these guys like this."
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Stuff like this happens on every airline, remember when DL and AAs employees were caught stealing out customers luggage? Its a bigger deal on this message board then anywhere else and while UA could have probably handled it better quite frankly we don't know UAs side of the story much less the truth (which isn't going to be UAs or this guys story.)![_](javascript:compressPost('4477270','1','1','42','Thestooges',' " target=_blank>http://www.prostagegear.com/images/b...9.jpg Great explanation. So really, at the end of the day he should have been traveling with a','')){kind=link}