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JAL To Suspend Nagoya-Paris  
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6685 times:

JAL to cut Chubu-Paris flights in October

Thursday 09th July, 06:24 AM JST

NAGOYA —Japan Airlines plans to cut all flights between Central Japan International Airport and Paris from the end of October as part of its restructuring, sources said Wednesday. Japan’s largest airline has been stepping up measures to reduce money-losing flights nationwide after it inked a deal to receive state-backed emergency loans to turn its business around.

JAL currently operates seven regular flights per week between the airport in Aichi Prefecture and the French capital, but demand for travel has dropped sharply due to the economic downturn and fears about the spread of the new influenza strain. For the April-June period, the routes have been operating at around 60% capacity, JAL said.

(source)
www.japantoday.com/category/business...cut-chubu-paris-flights-in-october

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4117 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6552 times:



Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
JAL to cut Chubu-Paris flights in October

Might be perfect for AF on the A332 however? They do codeshare on JL's flight at present.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2153 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6491 times:



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 1):
Might be perfect for AF on the A332 however? They do codeshare on JL's flight at present.

Very much unlikely. This flight was operated by JAL but AF co-signed the bills in a way as they pre-purchased bulk seat capacity (resold as an AF codeshare). AF always had trouble filling their contigency of seats and I very much doubt you will see them start NGO. This route is ideal for a 787 when the market rebounds but a 772/773 is too much capacity.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6353 times:

I am surprised the flight even lasted this long.
NGO-CDG is the last long-haul route not to/from Tokyo.


User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4117 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6233 times:



Quoting Runway23 (Reply 2):
Very much unlikely. This flight was operated by JAL but AF co-signed the bills in a way as they pre-purchased bulk seat capacity (resold as an AF codeshare). AF always had trouble filling their contigency of seats and I very much doubt you will see them start NGO

Bizarre, as they have no problems filling NRT and KIX!

Do KL serve NGO?



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineCX288 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

That's good news for Lufthansa and should give them additional lift for their NGO-FRA service.

I have heard that they carry quite a substantial number of passengers between Sao Paulo and Nagoya, though since a few months they are now confronted in this market with Emirates (GRU-DXB-NGO).


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5984 times:



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 4):
Do KL serve NGO?

No, KL serves daily flights to KIX and NRT.

Quoting CX288 (Reply 5):
I have heard that they carry quite a substantial number of passengers between Sao Paulo and Nagoya, though since a few months they are now confronted in this market with Emirates (GRU-DXB-NGO).

Correct, many pax transited from NGO to GRU via CDG (there was even an agreement in place between JAL and TAM for transfer pax). As you said, EK axed NGO-DXB which also carried a lot of pax transiting to GRU.

Brazil-Japan market is huge but usually NGO is low yielding while NRT is high yielding.

Rgs,


User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5923 times:
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Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 4):
Do KL serve NGO?

No! This route is operated by Finnair three times a week with 340 and 333 equipment and LH (four times a week) with 343 equipment.

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):

Flights are scheduled until March 2010 as seen in Amadeus.net

JL 437 D NGO CDG2E 1000 1440 0 25OCT09 27MAR10 777 12:40

Regards,

Gerard



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32193 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5918 times:



Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 7):

Flights are scheduled until March 2010 as seen in Amadeus.net

That's irrelevant. It just means that they have not been removed yet.



a.
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5744 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 3):
NGO-CDG is the last long-haul route not to/from Tokyo

Correct and I think someone also said they are surprised it lasted this long. Actually, the figures do justify it. I work for the airport corporation and directly deal with this flight so I do have figures to back my statement.

But did you read the news of Aichi government? Toyota and other corporation leaders including the governor of Aichi have gone directly to JL headquarters in Tokyo to demand the route not be axed.

I have no idea how this is going to end up but other airlines are moving aggressively.

JL could lose another major contract though with the situation becoming this big (large corporations and local enterprises at work).

Lets see if trying to consolidate everything in Tokyo is going to work. Many many routes out of NRT at the moment are money losers as well (again I have seen these figures).

JL seems to be scared losing slots at NRT and that is why they are flying those routes. If not, a lot of routes out of NRT could be axed as well.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5551 times:



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 9):
Lets see if trying to consolidate everything in Tokyo is going to work. Many many routes out of NRT at the moment are money losers as well (again I have seen these figures).

Unless JAL (or ANA) want to concentrate solely on the Tokyo market I can't see how consolidating everything at Narita can work. Most connections from Japanese cities require a long and uncomfortable connection from Haneda to Narita which makes using another airline and their hub a much better option. Why bother dragging suitcases between Haneda and Narita when you could fly via Seoul instead? Even the few domestic connections that there are from Narita are inconvenient for many flights which makes flying via somewhere else appealing. I am really surprised that JAL and ANA haven't made greater use of the new Nagoya airport. Domestic to International connections are much easier. Perhaps things will change when the 787s start arriving.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5495 times:

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 10):
I am really surprised that JAL and ANA haven't made greater use of the new Nagoya airport.

Its not that airlines have not tried however KIX and NGO have seen the failure of one route after another.

Just look at the fact that NGO now does not even have daily service across the Pacific to the US mainland or Canada, while KIX is not much better only supporting a single remaing flight!

Both airports have been longhaul disasters for many that have tried.

[Edited 2009-07-09 10:47:17]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5468 times:

With the opening of the new runaway in NRT due early in 2010 many airlines can now expand in NRT again and therefore would reduce or close operations in KIX and NGO. A lot of the expansion outside NRT was because of restrictions imposed in NRT or because of restrictions in Japan,s bilateral agreements.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32193 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5468 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Just look at the fact that NGO now does not have a single flight across the Pacific to the US mainland or Canada left

Delta/Northwest still flies Detroit-Nagoya.



a.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5453 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Delta/Northwest still flies Detroit-Nagoya.

Yes thank -- but not even daily currently.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline28L28L From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

When did JL first begin NGO-CDG flights? Was it when the new NGO airport opened in 2005?
Cheers.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5367 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 3):
I am surprised the flight even lasted this long.
NGO-CDG is the last long-haul route not to/from Tokyo.

NGO has a huge Brazilian presence and it used to be one of Varig's best destinations. I suspect this flight suffered when TAM shifted "alliances" from AF/JL to *A.

Quoting CX288 (Reply 5):
I have heard that they carry quite a substantial number of passengers between Sao Paulo and Nagoya, though since a few months they are now confronted in this market with Emirates (GRU-DXB-NGO).

You probably heard right. With TAM joining *A and already a partner of LH, I suspect that there has been a substantial shift of passengers from CDG to FRA, on the NGO route.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24084 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5333 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Just look at the fact that NGO now does not even have daily service across the Pacific to the US mainland or Canada,

Many cities in North America much larger than Nagoya (population around 2.2 million I believe) also have no nonstop transpacific service, daily or otherwise.

The very weak Japanese economy over the past few years, and for NGO in particular, the horrible situation in the global auto industry currently (and not likely to improve anytime soon) can't be helping traffic from NGO. Toyota reported a $4.5 billion loss in their last fiscal year ending in March, their first annual loss since 1950. And their global vehicle production in May was down 38% from a year ago.


User currently offlineMogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5254 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Delta/Northwest still flies Detroit-Nagoya.

And only because of auto-industry corporate contracts IIRC.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7951 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4726 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):

Many cities in North America much larger than Nagoya (population around 2.2 million I believe) also have no nonstop transpacific service, daily or otherwise.

Nagoya is a poor consumer market for air travel period. The metro population is nearly 10 million but despite relatively good incomes and low housing prices in the area relative to Tokyo, people in the region are financially conservative and don't travel much to begin with. Without the corporate contracts, we'd have seen only regional Asian service from day one in these parts.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4282 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

No surprise, really -- unlike the other major world air travel markets where fragmentation (i.e., more gateways to more longhaul destinations) is taking place, the French and Japanese air markets have been steadily defragmenting (i.e., re-centralizing almost completely to CDG and NRT) over the past decade.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4614 times:

Surprised and not surprised at the same time.
Paris is the most popular destination for Japanese tourists but Chubu people are tight-wads, a 772ER is too big and daily service is too much.

People say the Brazil traffic is huge. Well it is also very low yield and dropping. The Brazillians are going home as Brazil's economy is on the rise and Japan's is stagnant. The Japanese were welcoming to the Brazilians but have been unable to properly understand that they are not Japanese but Brazilians of Japanese backgroun. (very different).

When H1N1 broke out, Japan stopped looking outward. Everytime something happens far away, Japanese get scared and close up shop. The first 2 cases of H1N1 led to a quick drop in travel to the US. And since all places outside of Asia seem to be similar in the Japanese eyes, Europe gets hurt as well.

NGO-CDG started in 2005. It was the 2nd time in NGO (old and new) history that CDG was attempted. (First was with AF on an A343). If the flight were 3x a week with a smaller aircraft, it might just work. NGO needs the 787.

But one other thing is hurting Japan... ICN. KE has more flights to more destinations in the world compared to JL and NH combined. They are timed well and cost competative. You can fly to CDG just as easily or easier through ICN than through NRT.

The Japanese govt missed the boat with NRT and over did it with all the other airports. We need international flights from KIX and NGO as NRT is not the best for us. *A flights and Oneworld are not nicely lined up and HND is not an option. Skyteam has DL with one daily 757 which helps but is not the best option. I have considered KE more than once for travel to Europe and even the US as it gives me just as good a connection as anything, plus the price is competative.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4544 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 16):
NGO has a huge Brazilian presence and it used to be one of Varig's best destinations. I suspect this flight suffered when TAM shifted "alliances" from AF/JL to *A.

The same for GRU which has an even huger Japanese population.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
People say the Brazil traffic is huge. Well it is also very low yield and dropping. The Brazillians are going home as Brazil's economy is on the rise and Japan's is stagnant. The Japanese were welcoming to the Brazilians but have been unable to properly understand that they are not Japanese but Brazilians of Japanese backgroun. (very different).

This is not the whole story. High yielding, corporate and business traffic Brazil-Japan is growing and holding strong.

A lot of Japanese corporations are currenty investing or increasing investment in Brazil. Most of this traffic originates in NRT and not NGO. When I was in NRT in March I met my friend at the Trade & Investment Section of the Brazilian Embassy and he told me that never the demand for investment has been so strong. A lot of Japanese investors looking for opportunities outside Japan because of the recession in the home market. For example, recently Sompo insurance bought Brazilian insurance Maritima.

Rgs,


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4426 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
Most of this traffic originates in NRT and not NGO.

If it is business then it is NRT.

Afterall... Tokyo and Japan are not really the same country.  duck 

If the government didn't push Tokyo so much for business and travel, maybe there would be more investment & development in the rest of Japan and NGO, KIX and other airports could have more direct flights. Its as if after the bubble the country retracted to Tokyo and left the rest of the country to rot away. Tokyo = sophisticated and upscale. Not Tokyo = Country Bumpkins.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4264 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 23):
Tokyo = sophisticated and upscale. Not Tokyo = Country Bumpkins

You got that one right. It is total disaster. I think the government of Japan wants to drive ANA and JAL into bankruptcy and leave everything up to KE and OZ from the way this country has been moving. I know its disproportionate but this country has a population of 125 million people and 99 commercial airports (when Ibaraki opens next year). That is about 1.2 million people for every airport if you distribute it adequately. How do you expect to build an international hub with that?

I am not trying to make any excuses but Centrair was built for the Tokai region. The aim is not to drag traffic in from NRT and our terminal capacity at its max is 17 million people (not going to happen but its built for that). On the other hand, from my eyes viewing KIX's terminal, it seems to be built for close to 30 million people or even more.

In terms of direct flights, yes, we are both pathetic. But on party was built and still states, the Asian Hub. We don't.

In terms of competititon, you can say that KIX competes more with the TYO area. KIX now has direct service to both cities. We only have flights to NRT which the traffic load is really not impressive.

Pehaps the Japanese governmnent is tryint to feed everything into KE, OZ as long as they keep flying into new Japanese airports.

The 28 cities, does that include Shizoka as well now?



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
25 Post contains links Aaron747 : An excellent point. Nagoya can certainly market itself better for those who wish to access various sights in the Chubu region, not to mention the tim
26 Ktachiya : Well...... the Japanese authorities probably realize there is no need for 99 airports in this tiny country. But the fact is a fact. What is awkward a
27 Skyhigh : I admit to not knowing much about the Japanese market so maybe my comment is a little idealistic. Seeing as NRT is one of the most slot restricted air
28 Centrair : The other option is that other Japanese carriers get out of the Japan only business and compete. I mean how many flights do you need to Kagoshima, Oki
29 MarcoPoloWorld : I had the pleasure of transiting via Osaka-KIX on a transpacific itinerary a few years ago (I believe it was DTW-KIX-MNL), and thought to myself what
30 B747-4U3 : It does seem like JAL and ANA's focus is primarily on the Tokyo O&D market ( in much the same way that BA is focussed on the London O&D market). It m
31 Centrair : NGO was designed to be competitive with other Asian airports and maybe even attractive with international LCCs. It has failed in all of these areas. T
32 Skyhigh : Perhaps they could do an FR stunt in the meantime and rename the Airport Nagoya-Kyoto!
33 Profcalvin : It is a shame that NGO is not doing too great. I personally like the aiport a lot and spend lots of time there every summer when I stay in Nagoya. The
34 Post contains links Zentraedi : Huh? The JR Haruka limited express goes directly from KIX to Kyoto in 1h15m. That's faster and much easier than taking the fastest Meitetsu train fro
35 Centrair : I was referring to the culture at large. There is massive discrimination, blatent racisim and other issues that don't always make the big news. Many
36 Carpethead : What's the matter with you all. Rotten Japanese politics aside, if the treehuggers had their way like in the US & Europe, KIX and NGO would still be i
37 Lightsaber : I would argue that the #1 problem is the split airports for metropolitan regions that cannot support more than one airport. KIX and NGO would do well
38 Centrair : KIX lacks domestic but NGO does not. KIX has to contend with ITM. NGO does not have to contend with another airport. NKM was restricted to aircraft u
39 Hardiwv : And the very sad part of it is that Brazil welcomed more than 2 million Japanese without discrimination and who are now fully integrated into the Bra
40 FlyingAY : Do you or any of the other Centrair people know how AY is doing on that route? I'm quite positively surprised that they're still flying there. Having
41 Ktachiya : You mean because they are not a super major airline but fly to KIX, NRT, and also NGO? They were doing pretty badly when the swine flu case was going
42 Lightsaber : Thank you for the correction. So this is why RJ's are now flying in Japan. Sadly, its also the economy. It is amusing how much more seriously Japan (
43 Profcalvin : Yes I understand that how whenever there is a white, black, hispanic, or any other non-asian person walking the streats or on the subway everybody st
44 Hardiwv : The ample majority of Brazilians in Japan and nissei or sansei, ie second or third generation and should not have had any problem in terms of cultura
45 Centrair : I think that the opening of HND to long-haul international routes could further effect KIX more than NGO. But NGO could benefit from the Maglev. It wo
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