LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12155 posts, RR: 22 Posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6213 times:
Good deal.
Hopefully this helps clarify the ownership debate, and surely the potential added $150mil will go some ways to keep VX funded and growing providing its excellent product.
Quote: Virgin America, the carrier founded by Sir Richard Branson, is seeking US approval for a new slate of domestic investors it expects will end a rival's bid to challenge the company's ownership structure.
Under the plan submitted to the Department of Transportation, the airline would receive new capital from a group of investors that includes Cyrus Capital Partners, people familiar with the matter said. Cyrus, a New York hedge fund, was one of Virgin America's original shareholders. The new round of capital may be less than $150m.
People familiar with Virgin America's structure enabled it to keep Black Canyon and Cyrus as stakeholders and remain in compliance with foreign-ownership rules even if the two firms recalled their capital.
Virgin Group plans to transfer the two firms' stakes to its new US investor group once the structure plan is approved. By May, Virgin America was in talks with at least five US funds. Virgin America and Cyrus did not return calls.
MaverickM11 From United States, joined Apr 2000, 11933 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6159 times:
I'm sorry, you'd have to be a complete idiot to invest in VX. I don't understand how anyone could look at their numbers in the context of the already miserable airline industry and think they look like a great opportunity to do anything but destroy capital.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18442 posts, RR: 60 Reply 2, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6157 times:
Well, it's not so much a debate as a question of ownership, and assuming this is approved, then they will remain in compliance with the law.
It would be interesting to see who invests in Cyrus and others, and if having hedge funds involved is a way of "laundering" foreign money into a domestic structure. A lot of hedge funds are pretty shady. But because they are private and not a bank or brokerage, they have limited disclosure requirements right now. That might change as Congress looks to regulate them more.
Either way, the $150 million will help them sustain their losses through the rest of the year, at least. If the economy improves, it might even give them a chance to turn a profit before they need more capital.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6105 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2): A lot of hedge funds are pretty shady.
They are, and that is part of the attraction.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1): I'm sorry, you'd have to be a complete idiot to invest in VX.
Actually you'd have to be a complete idiot to invest in any airline. An industry with high capital costs and zero profit margin is not a good place for money.
As far as airline investments go, VX is probably one of the least bad, at least for pax carriers flying under their own name. They have the benefit of a strong charismatic leader in Sir Richard who won't go down without a fight plus an in-flight product that is superior to most American legacy carriers. They seem to have also gained a reputation as a young, hip airline (for what that's worth) and have a globally recognized brand name.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Azstar From United States, joined May 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6011 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3): They seem to have also gained a reputation as a young, hip airline (for what that's worth) and have a globally recognized brand name.
True, or not, this has absolutely zero value in the airline business world. Very few individuals, if any, will book a flight for that reason unless they are the cheapest carrier. The American traveling public is very fickle.
I'm usually a proponent of VX, and supported them when AeroEskimo kept buzzing in their ears... however, I take issue with what appears to be a blatant skirting of the law (though if they just found a loophole to a dumb rule, all the power to them. Cyrus has huge holdings in London, and even has offices there (I question their US presence, actually, considering they have less than 700 sq. feet of office space in the United States, and they don't even have a toll free number here!). One loophole I can imagine is:
Investor A lives in the USA, and invests $10,000,000 with Cyrus. In 2001, that $10,000,000 was invested in European holdings.
Investor B(ranson) lives in the U.K., and wants to shovel $10 million to VX, but can't due to ownership rules.
Cyrus makes a paper transaction, which basically makes it look like Investor A's money is invested in VX, which is perfectly ok since he's a US Citizen. Investor B's money is now "swapped", and as far as the records are concerned, it's his money in the European investments.
As long as Investor A gets his promised returns, he's blind to the goings on, and it's really not hurting him (unless Cyrus somehow goes under).
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
It would be interesting to see who invests in Cyrus and others, and if having hedge funds involved is a way of "laundering" foreign money into a domestic structure.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4): VX has consistently made the other airlines look bad, old, outdated, drab, and way behind
Fixed that for you
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): People familiar with Virgin America's structure enabled it to keep Black Canyon
Black Canyon isn't a funny money type of firm like Cyrus...they have significant holdings in true US companies. What's interesting, however, is that they tend to invest in companies that are doing really, for lack of a better term, shitty. Their crown jewel investment is a company that sells pre-made salads and pre-chopped onions and tomatoes to retailers... not exactly an industry with a high barrier to entry or steller returns. It's one of those companies whose presence warns other investors that it's time to bail... They're what's sometimes called a "Hospice Investor"...99% of their companies will wither and die soon, but the 1% that get better are what their clients will remember and what they flaunt.
When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5982 times:
Quoting Azstar (Reply 6): True, or not, this has absolutely zero value in the airline business world. Very few individuals, if any, will book a flight for that reason unless they are the cheapest carrier. The American traveling public is very fickle.
It does have little value, and I'm not about to pretend that this makes VX a good investment. But what is a bit more important is what they have to have gotten that image. The IFE, in-flight product, etc. are all things that could potentially swing customers in a world where air fares are very close to each other and any bit of product differentiation counts.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 10, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5904 times:
Quoting Azstar (Reply 6): True, or not, this has absolutely zero value in the airline business world. Very few individuals, if any, will book a flight for that reason unless they are the cheapest carrier. The American traveling public is very fickle.
Well, yes and no. I'm a pretty typical (if somewhat more informed) member of the flying public, and I generally make my decision based in large part on price. However, if I have had a bad experience with a particular airline, then I tend to avoid them if possible, and if I have a good experience with an airline, then all things being equal, or at least close to equal (within say, $20-30), I will tend to reward them with continued business. I've had consistently good experiences with VX, and their fares are generally competitive, so I continue to fly them when possible.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9): VX has consistently made the other airlines look good
Yeah, you hate them and wish they'd go away, we get it. Yes, they've been losing a lot of money, but evidently these investors think differently than you about their long-term prospects, so it seems they'll be around for at least another year or so. Sorry.
Aerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 1604 posts, RR: 18 Reply 11, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5873 times:
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 7): Cyrus has huge holdings in London, and even has offices there
God forbid! - So do most major US financial institutions. Perhaps they should be labelled "unpatriotic" next.
Given United just borrowed on its spares stock for an alarmingly high interest rate, perhaps the investors are betting there is going to be a fairly hefty void in the San Francisco area aviation market fairly soon?
Atlwest1 From United States, joined Jan 2009, 357 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5865 times:
I dont think its a matter of hate so much as it is that they are doing some shady things when it comes to ownership. Like it or not the law is the law until it is changed or relaxed its meant to be followed. Call Alaska AeroEskimo if you will but it is a sound carrier playing by the rules and is a much loved carrier and flies far more pax to far more places then Virgin America will in a while. Yes it is a hip carrier but for the population outside LAX SEA SFO and JFK it has zero to almost nil public awareness. Even a boutique brand needs to have aspirational customers that may not be able to get to it but know about it and will try when they are. VA is hardly that sorry
413x3 From United States, joined Jul 2008, 1043 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5852 times:
Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 11): God forbid! - So do most major US financial institutions. Perhaps they should be labelled "unpatriotic" next.
You can't push your free market globalization opinion through when the law still says domestic ownership. Change that rule, don't act like setting up a front American firm to in fact do what everyone said you were going to do is not unethical and skirting the law
OA412 From United States, joined Dec 2000, 2184 posts, RR: 8 Reply 15, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5735 times:
Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 10): Yeah, you hate them and wish they'd go away, we get it. Yes, they've been losing a lot of money, but evidently these investors think differently than you about their long-term prospects, so it seems they'll be around for at least another year or so. Sorry.
Some investors also thought differently and invested in Silverjet even in the face of heavy losses. Just because people are willing to invest doesn't mean that something is a viable concern.
ElBandGeek From United States, joined Jun 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5448 times:
Quoting Kleiner (Reply 16): What success must VX have in order to gain your respect?
For me, I'd like to see them lose the attitude that they're god's gift to air travel. When they couldn't get the gates they wanted at ORD they pretty much threw a hissy fit acting as if they couldn't believe Chicago wasn't just begging them to come in and save us all from UA and AA...not that they would consider lowering themselves to flying from MDW alongside the scum of the air WN. (exaggerating of course)
A good product is no excuse for being a prick (much like a certain other bay area company that I won't mention, but have similar feelings for. hint: they're named after fruit)
Proud resident of the ground below MDW's approach line
Aerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 1604 posts, RR: 18 Reply 20, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5385 times:
Quoting 413x3 (Reply 13): ou can't push your free market globalization opinion through when the law still says domestic ownership. Change that rule, don't act like setting up a front American firm to in fact do what everyone said you were going to do is not unethical and skirting the law
Except they've been scrutinised by the FAA and appear to have met the criteria.
Luv2cattlecall, however, is horrified that a financial firm has operations abroad, as if this somehow disqualifies them from investment in an airline.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 25925 posts, RR: 77 Reply 21, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5351 times:
Quoting Azstar (Reply 6): True, or not, this has absolutely zero value in the airline business world. Very few individuals, if any, will book a flight for that reason unless they are the cheapest carrier. The American traveling public is very fickle.
Absolutely false. If that was true, then there would be no frequent flyer programs.
Most flyers don't care. However, most flyers aren't profitable to an airline.
The profitable flyers - those paying the high fares, flying in premium cabins, working for elite status - absolutely book based on what the airline is.
Those top flyers may represent as little as 15% of an airline's passenger base, but as much as 50-60% of an airline's profits.
Virgin America has done a great job establishing a name for itself, and it has a ways to go, but just like JetBlue has built huge loyalty, so can Virgin America.
I personally do not shop for fares - I stick to one airline. There are easily 3M+ people like me in the U.S. that don't cross-shop airlines.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12155 posts, RR: 22 Reply 22, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5310 times:
Wow indeed so many hatters.
To me Virgin America truly is fresh air in the US market place. Their product and service on the ground and in the air is truly exemplary. They have done a good job of developing both an innovative premium domestic F class and economy product. They have incredible marketing talent with clever sponsorship and participation in all types of things from seat coverings at Lakers games to novelty drinks at bars, and even singles dating events.
Sure they are more of niche player focused on more of the yuppy hip tech crowd, however besides JetBlue I don't see another US carrier that matches them on the same product points.
For the sake of competition and choice I certainly hope they have a long future in Americas skies.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Atlwest1 From United States, joined Jan 2009, 357 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5231 times:
Unless they truely expand out of the niche they will never be well know and thus fails in the sense of trying to reach the maximum potential of passengers. Honest what are they doing that is so fresh that others arent or havent done before? A perfect example of missed oppurtunity would be Austin. Austin would be a GREAT market for Virgin America. They could have used there "great marketing" and just moved the Nerd bird the few miles up the road to SFO and really been successful on that route. They could probably slip into Atlanta another very good market with alot of that demographic that they cater to and bump off UA from the Atl-SFO route. I think they have a good product. If they want to be successful they need to expanded it out a bit. I dont think they will go belly up, but i do think they could be bought and or merged into a larger entity.
Atomsareenough From United States, joined Feb 2008, 447 posts, RR: 16 Reply 24, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5179 times:
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 12): I dont think its a matter of hate so much as it is that they are doing some shady things when it comes to ownership.
"Shady things" like *what*?? Where is there any actual evidence of that?
Quoting OA412 (Reply 15): Just because people are willing to invest doesn't mean that something is a viable concern.
I never said it was viable. I said some investors apparently think it's viable. All I said is that with another $150 million, they should at least be able to stick around for another year or so.
UAL777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1268 posts, RR: 3 Reply 25, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5180 times:
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 23): Unless they truely expand out of the niche they will never be well know and thus fails in the sense of trying to reach the maximum potential of passengers. Honest what are they doing that is so fresh that others arent or havent done before? A perfect example of missed oppurtunity would be Austin. Austin would be a GREAT market for Virgin America. They could have used there "great marketing" and just moved the Nerd bird the few miles up the road to SFO and really been successful on that route. They could probably slip into Atlanta another very good market with alot of that demographic that they cater to and bump off UA from the Atl-SFO route. I think they have a good product. If they want to be successful they need to expanded it out a bit. I dont think they will go belly up, but i do think they could be bought and or merged into a larger entity.
They are running the company off of the backs of their employees. Good riddance.
Just say NO to scope relief! In fact, TAKE IT BACK!
26 Hatbutton: Wait I'm confused. So this is an additional $150 million? Or is this just replacing the $150 that was pulled by the other investors? If that is the c
27 Aviators99: But Cyrus has been an investor since the beginning. Why is this just bothering you now?
28 United1: Small problem with anti-UA-ness in this case as UA does not fly SFO-ATL... Stop acting like they are entitled to special treatment in every market th
29 LAXintl: To my understanding all VX employees work there on their own free will. I'm not sure what angle you are following or accusations regarding employee e
30 Atlwest1: Well for many years they flew the route. I wasnt being anti UA far from it. I was just showing a route that was a viable route. When was it discontin
32 United1: IIRC it was cut a couple of years ago when fuel started spiking out of control. While I'm sure VX could do well in ATL I'm not sure if flying there i
33 United1: Wow only in November? seems farther back then that....oh well.
34 BMI727: I think that there are plenty of other places where VX could find a nice market where they wouldn't have to fight the combination of DL and FL.
35 LAXintl: Yup Nov 2008. I posted the news last July. UA Drops ORD-GEG/SJC, DEN-CLT, LAX-AUS/OAK,SFO-ATL (by LAXintl Jul 18 2008 in Civil Aviation)
36 CGKings317: Id also like to add that it is probable that there exists airports that are actively pursuing VX who could accommodate them easily and without m
37 UAL777: Their wages apply downward pressure on everyone else's wages. Their pilots are flying for darn near RJ wages.
38 Mk777: It would be nice to see VX offer flights from SAN and PDX to IAD in the near future, right now only LAX and SFO are connected. Any idea if this will e
39 DLPMMM: From what I read in the linked article, it looks like the capital infusion of capital will be used to take out the investments of both Black Canyon a
40 Enilria: As I've stated before, the financial numbers they are releasing in terms of cost are horsesh#t. If anybody believes them it is either because they ha
41 VS030: One can hardly expect them to compete with the likes of UA, DL, SW, etc in terms of salary after only two years! The pay scale isn't the best, but no
42 Atomsareenough: They've also got less than two years of seniority at most. I thought I read in one of the previous threads that IAD was one of their worst-performing
43 Enilria: I appreciate that. It's also fairly ironic that Cyrus both withdrew their funds and are putting funds back in. That smells of Branson sweetening the
44 Atomsareenough: Here's an interesting article by Brett Snyder: http://industry.bnet.com/travel/1000...9/virgin-america-gets-new-funding/ The way he describes it, Virg
45 Dartland: " target=_blank>http://industry.bnet.com/travel/1000...ding/ Good article indeed. It sounds to me like Cyrus is just putting up money with a guarante
46 Xdlx: I agree.. they should invest elswehere like www.citylinkair.com
47 Slcdeltarumd11: Even within those markets it has little public awareness. I live in NYC and most 99.56% of people have no idea what virgin america is. They would thi
48 Hatbutton: And that's the thing that makes me scratch my head. The OP cited an article where they are getting this money injected to end the debate on their own
49 BMI727: This might be slightly off topic, but do you guys think that VX would have had to deal with this much scrutiny and red tape if they didn't use the Vir
50 MAH4546: Virgin America has incredibly strong public awareness, especially on the West Coast. Virgin America is a full-service, 2-class airline. And the best
51 Hatbutton: Unfortunately I'll have to admit I doubt it. If SRB wasn't always so vocal about starting up a US airline and creating a worldwide Virgin airline, we
52 LAXintl: Maybe things are different in NY, but I cant go a day without running across something to do with Virgin America in my daily life. From billboards, b
53 Ridgid727: Thats interesting, considering they have travel contracts with a number of New York Based Companies who send hoards of people back and forthe between
54 BigGSFO: Which is why he is a billionaire. Business tenacity is not a bad thing. He knows how to use the press and is savvy with spin. Good thing or bad thing
55 FRNT787: Can no one say anything negative without hating something? This isnt an against us, or with us issue I hope... I hope they survive, truly. But, their
56 Hatbutton: No I definitely agree. I'm saying though that it's that same tenacity that has probably helped put VX under the microscope since he is a foreign inve
57 Atomsareenough: Oh, not at all. I frankly agree with you, and I would be quite wary about investing with them myself. But I do notice that there are certain a.net me
58 BigGSFO: Agreed. As an aside, I once read a book about the future of companies who are currently run by so called "superstar" CEOs. What Virgin will look like
59 EA CO AS: Alaska Airlines, which competes with Virgin America on routes to Seattle and other west coast cities, has questioned the carrier’s “US citizenship
60 Aviators99: The petition was meritless because nobody had (or has) pulled out their ownership yet. This is now a proposal that will allow the original investors
61 DocLightning: The question is: with such similar products, is there room for both? The only real difference is that B6 doesn't have F class. For me, I've considere
62 Aviators99: If you asked me last April, I would have said that if I didn't care about F class, I wouldn't care which airline I flew (between VX and B6). But havi
63 Murchmo: they are much more common, but... exactly. Got that right. Everyone i know who has flown it is raving. I live in LA and people keep stating that they
64 CGKings317: Except PDX where there is no VX presence and is a major west coast hole they should fill. Like many other people said, I would imagine that VX is a g
65 Murchmo: Agreed. AUS would be great for them. They really need to get established coast to coast. On a side note I think this High Speed Rail is gonna have se
67 Hatbutton: Well there's the million dollar question. Sure they are the best bang for the buck. But are they charging enough to cover their costs? It is a no bra
68 STT757: I agree with Slc here, VX has no brand awareness what so ever in the NYC market. Or the entire Northeast for that matter, it's all Jetblue.
69 Lightsaber: Wow... I didn't expect this. I wasn't keen on the ownership debate, but this infusion of funds will keep VX flying probably until they're in the blac
70 CGKings317: Nearly all cities are experiencing hurt during this downturn to a degree, but such a downturn did not stop VX from adding SNA. With respect to routes
71 Hatbutton: From what I understand this is not an additional infusion of money. It is replacing the investors who recently pulled out.
72 Atlwest1: I think the problem is that they need to expand and to make a presense. When the extremly vast majority of the country doesnt know your name and you p
73 EA CO AS: I don't believe the 'blue-collar set' is their target audience. Nevertheless, their problem is they're pricing themselves at 'blue-collar' levels in
74 UA772IAD: I have heard nothing but praise regarding their product and service, from friendly crews who consistently put forth their best efforts, to innovative
75 Lightsaber: Hence why I posted "They have good brand awareness among their target markets" first. Which is how every LCC should advertise. Lightsaber
76 MaverickM11: That's basically their business plan. Unfortunately that was also the plan at EOS, Maxjet, Silverjet, L'avion, Openskies, Legend, MGM Grand Air, etc.
77 BMI727: More or less. But not all of them back it up. VX seems to do a pretty good job of that for the most part.
78 EA CO AS: Except the initial part of their business plan involves trying to shift share their way via a scorched-earth policy of unsustainable fares. Problem i
79 AirplaneBoy: Just curious, what would be considered full service? At most carriers, economy passengers generally have to pay separate ancillary fees for checking
80 Enilria: On a.net it seems not. Their numbers are mostly fake...at least the cost information is. I've lost money on every airline investment I've ever made.
81 MaverickM11: I understand they want to be a premium carrier, but you just can't do that without the premium schedule. End of story. I'd add one, particularly rele
82 AirFrnt: Bear in mind, RJET is about to walk away with F9, a carrier much larger then VX, with a stable hub, making a steady profit, for something along this
83 413X3: where do you get your opinion polls from? I find that completely illogical and downright wrong on all levels
85 Aviators99: I don't agree with this, as the LF numbers seem pretty good to me. Anecdotally, I've looked at SEA-SFO-SEA over the past two weeks and the flights ha
86 EA CO AS: High loads of loss-leader fares still equal a loss, no matter how you slice it. Your statement actually reinforces my point, though - when you're run
88 BMI727: This is the mindset that launches careers and destroys airlines. LF does not equal profit. Sell all of your tickets for $1 and you will have a full p
89 Aviators99: Thanks for quoting me out of context. Let me re-quote the part I was responding to: and my response was that LF are high. I made no claim about anyth
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