Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13950 times:
I find it odd that Delta has already removed the Northwest name from airport terminal signage etc, when Northwest still operates under its own operating certificate with NW flight numbers, as a unit of Delta.
At DFW airport, for instance, a passenger booked on a Northwest flight (with a NW flight number) will not see any mention of the name Northwest on the airport terminal listings. So if it happens to be someone who just happens not to know to look for Delta, he/she can get thoroughly confused driving around looking for the terminal Northwest operates out of!
I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
DALMD88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1988 posts, RR: 13 Reply 1, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13905 times:
Part of the problem is the change over has taken too long. They should have stopped selling NW branded tickets by now. All the flights should have a DL number and the NW signage should be pretty much gone from a customer viewpoint. Sure the single ops cert is months away still and the fleet is nowhere close to being painted, but the customer front end should have been very quick. For most mergers they go around throwing stickers over the old airline name in a matter of days. For us it looks like the approach is we will only rebrand with the total package. So the brand stays NW until we can change all the signage to look like a legacy DL station. Meanwhile we keep selling tickets under the NW brand.
Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2193 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13883 times:
If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them. Say next Friday I looked up a MSP-MKE roundtrip and found the same fare on both airlines. On the exact same flights.... Northwest, then on Delta "Operated by Northwest" for nonstop flights.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13759 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under
You miss my point. Regardless of whether you know about the merger or not, if you have a Northwest ticket with a Northwest flight number, it would be entirely reasonable to look for the terminal Northwest (and not Delta) operates out of!
And there are plenty of international travellers who may not follow US airline mergers that closely, and get confused my the lack of directions to Northwest at the airports.
Pilotboi From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2253 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13757 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage!
Oh, so the rebranding process can continue long after the SOC and you and everyone else can complain that the NW image is still around but the airline doesn't exist anymore. Right. Let alone the passengers now see all this NW stuff but have DL tickets. Now we're back to square one.
Why wait for some legal documents that say you are one airline to actually start the re-branding process? They're just trying to get ahead of the game here. Besides, there is plenty of signage that indicates NW passengers can check in at DL. And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often).
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
You're right. They can't do anything right. Maybe you should step in and take charge.
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): So if it happens to be someone who just happens not to know to look for Delta, he/she can get thoroughly confused driving around looking for the terminal Northwest operates out of!
Answered very well here:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under.
Pilotboi From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2253 posts, RR: 10 Reply 5, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13702 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 3): it would be entirely reasonable to look for the terminal Northwest (and not Delta) operates out of!
Actually I would find it not reasonable. But either way - at almost every airport, there is signage to indicate where to go for NW passengers.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 3): And there are plenty of international travellers who may not follow US airline mergers that closely, and get confused my the lack of directions to Northwest at the airports.
Come on, we all know that no one ever pays attention when driving around the airport. At least not here at MCO. 10,000 signs and they are rarely read.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13698 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): You're right. They can't do anything right. Maybe you should step in and take charge.
Wow... with such an aggressive and arrogant response to a perfectly legitimate questions, I sure hope you're not a pilot in real life -- how would you deal with routine questions without blowing your top?
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often).
If you get asked quite often, you make my point -- obviously people are getting confused!
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13679 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 5): Actually I would find it not reasonable. But either way - at almost every airport, there is signage to indicate where to go for NW passengers.
Not at the roadways and terminal maps at DFW, which I am sure would agree is a pretty major airport.
On DFW's list of airlines it doesn't even show NW. I'm sure the "uninformed" traveller is researching and finding out all they can before getting to the airport. If not, they should be... As said earlier, both airlines, most airport websites, and many other resources link to the NW/DL merger before you even arrive at the airport. I know airplanes, procedures and everything else quite well, but even when I travel I look at maps of terminals and other needed info before even leaving for the airport.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Nws2002 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13548 times:
Have you ever heard the saying Rome wasn't built in a day? That's the case here. There is no way to merge two airline operations without confusion. Overall things have actually gone smoothly so far.
As for not knowing about the NW-DL merger I think many on a.net would be surprised. I'm a CO employee and I get stopped in the airport all the time by NW pax who are confused and looking for their check-in. Sure there is signage, but I've been guilty myself of standing right under a sign and looking everywhere buy up (or across, or at the wall, etc.)
Atlwest1 From United States, joined Jan 2009, 359 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13445 times:
I cant tell you how when im at work in a concourse CLEARLY branded for my carrier that I get people looking for another carrier. Delta or any carrier for that matter could have cheerleaders and streaming banners and people will still be confused. When people travel it seems sometimes that outside the airport they are coherent smart productive members of society, in the airport they sky cap check there brains to there final destination. Its cute sometimes but sometimes all you can do is smile and nod
IAD51FL From United States, joined Dec 2006, 281 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13340 times:
Its just like codeshare flights.... if you are in SLC and have a Continental ticket, you may be actually flying on Delta.
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 12): cant tell you how when im at work in a concourse CLEARLY branded for my carrier that I get people looking for another carrier. Delta or any carrier for that matter could have cheerleaders and streaming banners and people will still be confused. When people travel it seems sometimes that outside the airport they are coherent smart productive members of society, in the airport they sky cap check there brains to there final destination. Its cute sometimes but sometimes all you can do is smile and nod
I had a guy stand in my line at IAD for 20 minutes looking at me, the other agent and the big sign behind me, and gets mad at me because he was flying B6 and WE made him wait in the wrong line.
People don't read signs, or notices on webpages or even pay attention to announcements. They just expect others to hold their hand and get them through life, and if they don't get the hand holding, they say they had a bad experience and complain. On a similar note, check out the movie Idiocracy, it shows what kind of world we may be living in soon.
Chris
Moved to IAH, living across from the approach end of 26R
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3141 posts, RR: 14 Reply 13, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 12975 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): Why wait for some legal documents that say you are one airline to actually start the re-branding process?
Well now, if you want to get both technical and accurate about it......UNTIL those legal documents state you are one airline, you are NOT one airline, are you?
Sorry, but the poster was entitled to ask a question he thought valid. However, if you're going to be rude and condescending in answering, then you should really make sure you're correct.
Revelation From United States, joined Feb 2005, 4134 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 12915 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 15): Well now, if you want to get both technical and accurate about it......UNTIL those legal documents state you are one airline, you are NOT one airline, are you?
Sure, but as mentioned, things like codeshares and regionals flying for majors mean that quite often folks are buying tickets branded for airline X yet are flying airline Y. Thus there's no reason why Delta can't rebrand all their flights to Z regardless of whether NW or a regional is flying them.
Brand name != airline name, not any more at least.
Daleaholic From United Kingdom (England), joined Oct 2005, 2927 posts, RR: 19 Reply 15, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12799 times:
Quoting Chootie (Reply 10): Working at an airport has unfortunately given me the insight that approximately 70-80% of people travelling, have left their brain in a jar at home. Amazing that soooo many peolple do NOT inform themselves before leaving.
Correct!
Even if all the signs pointed passengers in the right direction, they still wouldn't have a f**king clue where to go! Passengers lose all common sense when they walk through the doors of an airport terminal.
Back on topic... Passengers should already know about the merger and be aware that their flight is being operated by Delta. It's a similar situation in the UK where Thomson took over First Choice. All branding has now changed and only some of the aircraft remain in First Choice colours, operating under Thomson flight numbers/codes.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
Josh32121 From United States, joined Apr 2008, 120 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12655 times:
If someone books a ticket on nwa.com, does the itinerary that's e-mailed to the passenger indicate that they may need to check in at a Delta kiosk/counter? If so, one could argue that they have been notified (although I know people rarely read everything in those e-mails).
Separately, I traveled with some coworkers a couple of months ago, and they experienced the opposite issue. One of them had booked a flight with a NW flight number but operated by DL out of LAX (which wasn't consolidated or rebranded at that time). I had to point out to him that he should come to T5 instead of T2 because he didn't realize he was on a DL-operated flight. There was no mention of it on the itinerary from our corporate travel agency.
NWAESC From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1911 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12162 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under.
I hear you, but you'd be surprised how many people don't know anything about this merger.
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often)
I get asked often too. No big deal. This also happens when they have a ticket "on Northwest," but see a plane in DL colors at the gate.
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 9): I'm sure the "uninformed" traveller is researching and finding out all they can before getting to the airport.
You're being sarcastic, right?
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 9): but even when I travel I look at maps of terminals and other needed info before even leaving for the airport.
Excellent idea... and one I'm sure never occurs to 95% of the traveling public...
Rscaife1682 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 228 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11818 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them. Say next Friday I looked up a MSP-MKE roundtrip and found the same fare on both airlines. On the exact same flights.... Northwest, then on Delta "Operated by Northwest" for nonstop flights.
Wow do you....Or have you ever worked for an airline
Jetblueguy22 From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 1044 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11642 times:
Well for one nobody should be confused because when you look at your itinerary it says check in with Delta Airlines. It says that on my itinerary out of BDL tomorrow and my return from LSE next weekend. I guarantee it says that on every itinerary issued for a station with new signage.
Blue
IMissPiedmont From United States, joined May 2001, 5594 posts, RR: 55 Reply 20, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11615 times:
Perhaps not relevant to the original question but back in the 1980s the old airline name was removed from everything the day after, or in a few cases the day of the merger approval.
Though my eyes could see I still was a blind man, though my mind could think I still was a madman
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11430 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I find it odd that Delta has already removed the Northwest name from airport terminal signage etc, when Northwest still operates under its own operating certificate with NW flight numbers, as a unit of Delta.
At DFW airport, for instance, a passenger booked on a Northwest flight (with a NW flight number) will not see any mention of the name Northwest on the airport terminal listings. So if it happens to be someone who just happens not to know to look for Delta, he/she can get thoroughly confused driving around looking for the terminal Northwest operates out of!
I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
Well you could look at it this way, NW is now a PART OF DELTA. They are much like that of SkyWest, ASA, Comair, etc. When you buy a ticket on Delta and one leg of your trip is on a regional jet/prop, the ticket only says Delta on it but it also adds "Operated by XXX". Now under your thought, and it is a reasonable question, but if Detla were to have waited longer to change the signage there would still be considerable confusion down the road as at SOME POINT they would have to change from NW to DL. So I actually give Delta credit, where you don't, and believe they did a great job in jumping on top of this issue so as to minimize the confusion when the merger is officially completed. Why wait until the planes all say Delta on them and for them to be operating under one certificate, which passengers DON'T ever really know, to change the airport signage??? Delta is being VERY proactive on this front.
On kind of a side note however I actually thought it was taking quite a while for them to make a switch in that there ARE still many NW painted aircraft and that there is still some separation of the two. I remember when AA bought AirCal, they disappeared nearly overnight with the ticket counters being changed, GSE being decaled and repainted AA and even the titles on the planes themselves came off quite fast and the small black American titles were applied. Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11400 times:
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 22): Perhaps not relevant to the original question but back in the 1980s the old airline name was removed from everything the day after, or in a few cases the day of the merger approval.
Very much agreed, I was actually thinking the opposite of the OP and I was surprised at how long this is actually taking.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11364 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 7): Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 5):
Actually I would find it not reasonable. But either way - at almost every airport, there is signage to indicate where to go for NW passengers.
Not at the roadways and terminal maps at DFW, which I am sure would agree is a pretty major airport.
Yes DFW is a major airport but think of this in terms of DL and NW, it is NOT A MAJOR airport for either of them.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11323 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 23): On kind of a side note however I actually thought it was taking quite a while for them to make a switch in that there ARE still many NW painted aircraft and that there is still some separation of the two. I remember when AA bought AirCal, they disappeared nearly overnight with the ticket counters being changed, GSE being decaled and repainted AA and even the titles on the planes themselves came off quite fast and the small black American titles were applied. Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
Considering the size of the fleets they're dealing with, I think they're doing a pretty good job. Remember, much of the original DL fleet has to be repainted, also as whey were still flying around in the Wavy Gravy livery. As far as AA rebranding AirCal, how many a/c did AirCal have in their fleet that needed repainting, anyway?
You may still see some NW aircraft with stickers on them if they haven't yet been repainted by the time the SOC goes into effect.
I also think they've done a good job with the signage, no matter what the OP might say. He's not stating that this is actually occuring, just that it is possible. Remember, much of the signage OUTSIDE of the terminal, in terms of directions, etc. is the responsibility of the airport authority and not the individual airlines, so, DL can hardly be faulted if the airport hasn't updated that, yet.
DL is doing everything they can to inform the passengers, whether it's e-mails, stating it on the tickets, etc. DL cannot be held responsible if the passengers either don't read or pay attention to what is happening.
BTW, foreign passengers might have the same problems, anyway, regardless of the DL/NW merger and signage changes.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
MCOatc From United States, joined Mar 2009, 58 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11296 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 5): Come on, we all know that no one ever pays attention when driving around the airport. At least not here at MCO. 10,000 signs and they are rarely read.
And when they do, they have to stop in the middle of the road to do so, only to then cut across 4 lanes of traffic.
On a more relevant note, I am a bit surprised that the NW website does not include a bit more DL branding to indicate the common company. I know quite a few intelligent people who do quite a bit of traveling both domestic and international who I doubt would know about the merger.
Otherwise, DL has done a pretty good job with this integration. Like others, I am surprised the NW titles haven't had decals placed over them on the aircraft.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 26, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11436 times:
Quoting MCOatc (Reply 27): Otherwise, DL has done a pretty good job with this integration. Like others, I am surprised the NW titles haven't had decals placed over them on the aircraft.
I think that maybe they'd just as soon get as many painted as they can, to save time later. At some point, they might put stickers on, but only if necessary. When it came to Western's fleet, they stickered EVERYTHING and then went on a painting binge, later. There were a couple of 737-200s that were delivered to WA in DL colors from the factory, though.
Also, to actually answer the original question of the OP, I think DL is trying to get ahead of the game as far as rebranding and ahead of the SOC. No use sitting around, doing absolutely nothing when they could be accomplishing quite a bit.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 27, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11410 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 26): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 23):
On kind of a side note however I actually thought it was taking quite a while for them to make a switch in that there ARE still many NW painted aircraft and that there is still some separation of the two. I remember when AA bought AirCal, they disappeared nearly overnight with the ticket counters being changed, GSE being decaled and repainted AA and even the titles on the planes themselves came off quite fast and the small black American titles were applied. Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
Considering the size of the fleets they're dealing with, I think they're doing a pretty good job. Remember, much of the original DL fleet has to be repainted, also as whey were still flying around in the Wavy Gravy livery. As far as AA rebranding AirCal, how many a/c did AirCal have in their fleet that needed repainting, anyway?
You may still see some NW aircraft with stickers on them if they haven't yet been repainted by the time the SOC goes into effect.
Very true, the OC fleet was much smaller but I was just trying to drive home the point that it has before been done much quicker. I actually think DL is doing a great job so as to be near completion by the time they are under one operating certificate. The only other comparison that could possibly be brought up however is the HP/US merger. They really jumped on top of getting rid of the America West name even though that was the airline taking over.
Luckyone From United States, joined Aug 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11386 times:
Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 18): If someone books a ticket on nwa.com, does the itinerary that's e-mailed to the passenger indicate that they may need to check in at a Delta kiosk/counter?
Yes it does. I booked a flight through Northwest that involves flights on KLM Malev and Delta, and it explicity states check with KLM, check in with Delta.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 30, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11334 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 29): Very true, the OC fleet was much smaller but I was just trying to drive home the point that it has before been done much quicker.
Well, like I said before, I'm sure it could be done quicker if they wanted to go the "sticker" route, but I really think they'd rather paint as much as they possibly can, while they can, to save from doing it later. Stickers or not, they'll all have to be done, eventually....why not do it now?
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Flyabunch From United States, joined Nov 2004, 494 posts, RR: 6 Reply 31, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11237 times:
If I remember correctly, When America West and US Air merged the signage was changed pretty quickly. All plane repaints from that point on got the new scheme. And, they took two years to go to one operating certificate!
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 32, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11183 times:
Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 33): If I remember correctly, When America West and US Air merged the signage was changed pretty quickly. All plane repaints from that point on got the new scheme. And, they took two years to go to one operating certificate!
IIRC, when DL did the changeover from PA, in many cities, it was done overnight and even the A-310s were painted pretty quickly. Our first flight from JFK to TLV had a bumper sticker on it (you could still see the blue lettering and the meatball under the white paint), but the second flight, a couple of days later, was completely painted in the DL livery.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11082 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site.
Not everybody cares as much as anetters do. the merger FAQ link isn't so big; if you use orbitz or something you might not even see that; i don't know.
Do Anetters know all about M&A in other industries, like pharmaceuticals, automotive, retail, and so on? Yet they now and then buy things from these industries.
if you buy a NW ticket with a NW flight number, I don't fault somebody for looking for a NW counter.
It isn't the fact that its big on DL's site, its that its a very contrasting green color that immediately catches the eye on their site. Honestly, NW needs it more than DL needs it. Still the fact is, people who fly NW or buy NW tickets should know by now, and if not, we'll let them be confused...
The only people I'd give an exception to are the people in MKE and DEN because of the messes with YX/F9 covering most the aviation time when they talk about it in the local news.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Widget1580 From United States, joined Jul 2004, 294 posts, RR: 26 Reply 35, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10997 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
the backdrops at DL ticket counters now say "also serving nwa" at the rebranded stations. people just need to take a second and read them and 99% of the confused people would no longer be confused.
LH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 61 Reply 36, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10901 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them. Say next Friday I looked up a MSP-MKE roundtrip and found the same fare on both airlines. On the exact same flights.... Northwest, then on Delta "Operated by Northwest" for nonstop flights.
Yes but you're giving the general population the benefit of the doubt that they have the ability to read, much less understand the "complexities" of code-sharing and such. Trust me, you could put it in 25-font, bold, red letters saying "OPERATED BY XYZ AIRLINES" and they'll still go the airline with the logo on the print out.
LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 37, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10790 times:
Quoting LH423 (Reply 38): Trust me, you could put it in 25-font, bold, red letters saying "OPERATED BY XYZ AIRLINES" and they'll still go the airline with the logo on the print out
I sometimes buy tickets that say "operated by Shuttle America" or "Mesaba" or "Gojet". does that mean I should go looking for those ticket counters at the airport?
Let's not get holier-than-thou, just because we follow this particular industry, and know how it all works, at least from the pax point-of-view.
When you buy some product or software, do you read the entire licence agreement? Do read the installation instructions or manual? Or do you just open the box and use the thing?
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4196 posts, RR: 56 Reply 38, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10746 times:
I am trying to remember how AA/TWA did it, they also changed their signage overnight too, however when that change happened was it when the SOC was one?
As they had been flying separately since the announcement when AA bought TWA, and they put stickers and re painted hybrid schemes (that'd be cool to see on some NW planes!) until everything became one.
I haven't flown out of the A concourse in awhile at STL so I am unable to see how the DL/NW process is going, however the DL and NW ticket counters remain separate in the main terminal.
All in All I'd say DL is progressing fast but it does seem like they could be going faster.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 39, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10103 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 40): All in All I'd say DL is progressing fast but it does seem like they could be going faster.
Well 80%+ of the stations are re-branded and over 30% of the NW fleet is repainted....what more do you want? Remember, there is STILL an airline operation to run at the same time. Part of DL's fleet is in the process of being repainted, also. I think they're making very good progress, considering all that has to be done.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4196 posts, RR: 56 Reply 40, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9976 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 40):
Well 80%+ of the stations are re-branded and over 30% of the NW fleet is repainted....what more do you want? Remember, there is STILL an airline operation to run at the same time. Part of DL's fleet is in the process of being repainted, also. I think they're making very good progress, considering all that has to be done.
Hey, don't shoot me I didn't start it up and complain!
I agreed it was going very fast, be nice if it went faster, but I don't expect it!
STL is still one of those 20% unchanged haha
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
PI4EVER From United States, joined May 2009, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9556 times:
Tharanga said it best. Don't be so holier-than-thou or jaded when an observation is made from a passengers perspective who simply doesn't live and breathe this industry. A case in point to illustrate what might be conceived as a "stupid passenger question" relating to the merger.
I helped my sister-in-law plan a trip for her 86 year old grandmother. My sister-in-law is a bright young woman who teaches at university level. We routinely don't talk airlines or travel, or certainly mergers, nor her profession of nursing. Yes, we do share "dumb passenger" or "dumb patient" stories for a laugh occasionally.
So, on to Grandma. Booked on NW to MEM using nwa.com. Nonstop flight for her convenience due to wheelchair need. My sis accompanied her Grandma to the gate in the wheelchair (thanks for the courtesy pass NW), but called me to let me know Grandma was flying on a DL plane. One of the first DC-9-50's painted in April. First question. "Why is she flying on Delta?" Explained. "Do you have to go to a different gate or terminal to meet her?" Explained and reassured I'd meet Grandma.
A dumb question from my sister The Doctor?
Don't ever become so jaded in dealing with customers that you forget what YOU DIDN'T KNOW on your first day of employment!
Good luck to all of you DL and NW folks on your successful merger. I have been there twice, and it can be both a frustrating and exciting time when anxiety seems to rule the day. As good ole Grandma said many times "This too shall pass".
Thomas
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 42, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9261 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
Lets use your idea for a minute and see which is more "thought through". If DL was to wait until the day that the SOC goes into effect, then you would have all the flights with DL flight numbers on them, but half would be painted in NW colors. How confusing would that be as well as the branding in the terminal? Instead of doing it the way they are and not having to rush about and get it done, they would have to a rush job, to get it completed.
Much better to do it the way they are instead of waiting. I think they've learned which way works best after the NE/WA mergers and PA acquisition. You'd be surprised at how many details there are to be worked out, even at the station level before a changeover. Better to have thought of these ahead of time, as well as ALL re-branding, than to wait until the last minute to get it done.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1000 posts, RR: 2 Reply 44, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8804 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 21): Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
The sheer difference in fleet size could leigitmize why Western had the titles changed so quickly, and now why NWA's rebranding will take longer.
We were luckier up here in Canada... when PWA/CP Air merged, titles were changed rather quickly, although the fleet was a few years. Operating as Canadi>n, the takeover of Wardair was quick, also.
When Air Canada finally took over struggling Canadi>n, there was so much media saturation, that the attitude for most Canadians was "shut up, we get it already". I guess that its easier to grasp when you had only two majors in the country....
JohnMKE From United States, joined Jun 2009, 28 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8692 times:
I'm sure that there are plenty of airport employees around every airport there to answer questions to help direct the passengers that do not utilize the internet.
Some might find this related to the topic. I saw a AmericaWest, painted with logo, bagcart last week being used for cargo and they marged almost 2 years ago.
WESTERN737800 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 497 posts, RR: 1 Reply 46, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8637 times:
Quoting Nws2002 (Reply 10): Have you ever heard the saying Rome wasn't built in a day? That's the case here. There is no way to merge two airline operations without confusion. Overall things have actually gone smoothly so far.
Well said especially when you consider this is the biggest merger in U.S. airline history.
[quote=Atlwest1,reply=11]When people travel it seems sometimes that outside the airport they are coherent smart productive members of society, in the airport they sky cap check there brains to there final destination. Its cute sometimes but sometimes all you can do is smile and nod
Same here, its amazing what people just forget when they get to the airport. I work at an FBO, a lot of the phone calls we get are people looking for the phone numbers for the airlines. Glad I don't have to put up with the stuff that you do.
I think DL is going about it the right way. Get as much rebranding done before the SOC comes into effect. Someone said 80% of the stations have been rebranded. I read somewhere that 35% of the NW fleet has been repainted. That is good progress. There is always going to be some confusion, better to get some of it out of the way before the SOC so as to minimize the chaos the night before, day after the SOC. Good job by DL.
DL brass: Keep widgetheads.net up!!! It's good for everyone!!!
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 47, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8547 times:
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 45): Some might find this related to the topic. I saw a AmericaWest, painted with logo, bagcart last week being used for cargo and they marged almost 2 years ago.
Actually US Aiways and America West merged I believe in early 2005 or late 2004 making it almost 5 years ago but yes they did manage to make sweeping changes and got rid of the America West name pretty quick.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8519 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 33): if you buy a NW ticket with a NW flight number, I don't fault somebody for looking for a NW counter.
Bingo. That is precisely my point. We are not talking about NW xxx Operated by Delta or Delta xxx Operated by NWA. We are talking about NW xxx operated by NWA! These are still two separate airlines in terms of operating certificates and flight numbers, though under common ownership.
And I am not even questioning the logo or signage at the counters, I am referring to potential confusion even before they get to the terminal and counters, when they see no signs on the roadway markings for Northwest anymore, but they are holding a NW ticket with a NW flight number.
Think also from the point of view of someone going to the airport to receive someone. The passenger says 'I am arriving on NW xxx from MSP". The person goes to the airport and sees no signs for NWA, and unless he knows he should be looking for Delta and NWA signage has been removed, he will be confused.
All I am saying is while Delta/NWA continues to sell and operate tickets and flights under the NWA name and code (which it does), it probably confuses quite a few people to see no mention of NWA anywhere in the airport roadways or terminals. Perhaps having intermim roadway and terminal signage saying "Delta/Northwest" might have been a good middle-ground.
C767P From United States, joined Oct 2008, 399 posts, RR: 1 Reply 49, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8291 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 48): And I am not even questioning the logo or signage at the counters, I am referring to potential confusion even before they get to the terminal and counters, when they see no signs on the roadway markings for Northwest anymore, but they are holding a NW ticket with a NW flight number.
I know there are at least some airports that still have “Northwest” up on roadways around the terminal even though the rebranding is complete at that airport.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 1517 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8250 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 3): You miss my point. Regardless of whether you know about the merger or not, if you have a Northwest ticket with a Northwest flight number, it would be entirely reasonable to look for the terminal Northwest (and not Delta) operates out of!
And there are plenty of international travellers who may not follow US airline mergers that closely, and get confused my the lack of directions to Northwest at the airports.
The change over should not be a problem as whom ever sold you the ticket should have known about the merge and let you know. IMO we all knew about it last year and before with all the rumours that were floating around here. Even though you may not be able to find NW you should have enough common sense to ask someone who would be able to direct you to the appropriate location. Most international airports would have some knowledge of the merger as well and it would be up to the individual station to provide the information that you are seeking.
Having low expectations means you won't be disapointed.
CFBFrame From United States, joined May 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8098 times:
I find the attitude from airline employees interesting considering the OP is a buying customer. Here we have a customer who is complaining and we end up reading about airline employees complaining about their customers. Now I understand why the industry is in so much trouble.
Many customers are afraid to fly, and they come to the airport nervous about the entire process. Some get overwhelmed at the site of all the people and are unable to focus. Some can't read, while some have eye problems. Others are just plain stupid and are always lost. But in the end they are all customers and no matter what condition they're in they should be respected and helped. Don't like it get out of the business, don't kick the folks who paid their hard earned money to fly your crappy airline!!!!
Wouldn't it be interesting if an airline accepted that responsibility and took your customers away from you hothead airline employees? Just reading the comments here tells me business would be booming for the respectful airline. With all of those stupid customers gone there would be plenty opportunity to complain to yourselves about how your worthless customer service has resulted in you standing in empty terminals. Get over yourselves, and respect the fact you have a customer facing job and your paycheck should be respected.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 1517 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7989 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 37): Do read the installation instructions or manual? Or do you just open the box and use the thing?
When it comes to computers or electronic equipment, not only do I read the instructions but I usually end up calling the damn company and have to talk to 5 different people with foreign accents before I end up calling and paying for a tech to come and show me how to work the bloody thing after he takes about 10 seconds to hook up the hardware or download the software and already have the stupid thing working.
Having low expectations means you won't be disapointed.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7766 times:
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 52): have to talk to 5 different people with foreign accents
Foreign as in a non-Canadian accent? Or a non-French Canadian accent? Being such a small part of the world's population, Canadians must have to deal a lot with foreign accents when doing business in today's world, isn't it? So why raise the accent issue here? Does it have any relevance to the topic at hand?
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7733 times:
Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 51): I find the attitude from airline employees interesting considering the OP is a buying customer. Here we have a customer who is complaining and we end up reading about airline employees complaining about their customers. Now I understand why the industry is in so much trouble.
Well said! I too am amazed at the hostile response to a geniune question -- I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
I guess the problem with airlines in many parts of the world has always been they tend to be operationally focused, and not customer focused. No where better demonstrated than on this thread.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 55, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7310 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 54): Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 51):
I find the attitude from airline employees interesting considering the OP is a buying customer. Here we have a customer who is complaining and we end up reading about airline employees complaining about their customers. Now I understand why the industry is in so much trouble.
Well said! I too am amazed at the hostile response to a geniune question -- I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
I guess the problem with airlines in many parts of the world has always been they tend to be operationally focused, and not customer focused. No where better demonstrated than on this thread.
Well I would have to say that you seem to be too focused on why the signage outside of the Terminal at DFW would have the NW name removed. You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
A quick side note however, you seem to be really sensitive to what people respond back with, you asked the question and they answered it, a couple however may have been slightly hostile but that's about all. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7095 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 55): Well I would have to say that you seem to be too focused on why the signage outside of the Terminal at DFW would have the NW name removed. You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
I would wager that the airport does it based on direction from the airlines, and that DFW is not the only airport where the NWA name has been removed from airport roadway signage.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 58, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7035 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 56): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 55):
Well I would have to say that you seem to be too focused on why the signage outside of the Terminal at DFW would have the NW name removed. You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
I would wager that the airport does it based on direction from the airlines, and that DFW is not the only airport where the NWA name has been removed from airport roadway signage.
Ok, then I guess I don't really understand what has you so flustered. It really seems like a moot point then I guess. Do you just really not like Delta??? If that is so then you should just say that and get this over with. This is getting kind of ridiculous.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 54): I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
...Really???
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
That sounds like complaining to me. So what signage are you really asking about?? The ticket counters, the gate check in, the sign on the front of the terminal or the signs on the roads going around the terminal???
Delta can inform the airport that they have purchased NW and that the NW names will eventually have to come off the "AIRPORT" signs and only Delta signs would remain. Delta CANNOT CHANGE THOSE SIGNS, that is the job of the DFW Authority.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 59, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7028 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 54): Well said! I too am amazed at the hostile response to a geniune question -- I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
I guess the problem with airlines in many parts of the world has always been they tend to be operationally focused, and not customer focused. No where better demonstrated than on this thread.
There were many legitimate answers on here. Not all were hostile but you didn't seem to read them or the well thought out responses.
Again, as far as OUTSIDE signage at the airport, that is the AIRPORT's responsibility, not the airline's. I'm sure the airline can pressure them to get it done, but that's about all.
Then again, you made the observation at ONE airport. While it's a legitimate problem for you (and well founded), I don't think that one observation is enough for DL to change their entire re-branding and re-painting program at this point. Again, it's better for them to do it, now, than wait and have to rush to do it later. Be patient.......it should be entirely done by the end of the year......at that point, about all you have left to see are the a/c that haven't been painted, yet and even those will probably have DL stickers on them.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, all the flights are either NW, operated by DL or DL, operated by NW. I really don't think there are any NW, operated by NW, left.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6864 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 59): Also, if I'm not mistaken, all the flights are either NW, operated by DL or DL, operated by NW. I really don't think there are any NW, operated by NW, left.
That's the whole point -- a large number of NWA-operated flights are still NW, operated by NW (NWA flight number, NWA aircraft).
777Daedalus From Brazil, joined Oct 2005, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6864 times:
This is only my personal opinion (and no offense to any NW fans) but the NW marque in many ways represents an old, tired, groaning brand associated with a dated "regional" name (gone defunct the same way Western, Eastern, America West, Piedmont, Ozark Airlines have gone etc.) unexciting middle-western rust-belt hubs (DTW, MSP) and un-dynamic, un-sexy (although I am sure safe) DC-9's. Its brand appeal is similar to General Motors. In my mind, the faster they get rid of the ballast associated with this failed brand the better. In contrast DL's image is much more dynamic, representing a growing company headquartered in the American New South but with a fierce global reach into Europe, Latin American, Asia and Africa. While this may not have been DL's reason for removing NW signage, doing so promotes a much more cutting edge, expanding and forward looking enterprise. Now if they can just get the new livery printed on more of their aeroplanes!
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6866 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 58): Do you just really not like Delta??? If that is so then you should just say that and get this over with. This is getting kind of ridiculous.
Huh? Where did I say that? I just flew DL/NWA to Hawaii and back on the Upper Deck of a 744, and loved it. So this has nothing to do with my liking or not liking Delta.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6781 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 57): was at LAX last weekend, and Northwest signs were clearly visible, just at Terminal 5 instead of their former location at Terminal 2.
The signs hanging from the overhang by the passenger pick-up/drop-off area at Terminal 5 (like at all the terminals) said:
Delta | Northwest
IMHO, that's exactly the way it should be until they get rid of NW flight numbers and complete the merger under a single name and operating certificate.
However I believe there are several airports that are doing it the way I see it at DFW, and it is certainly something Delta can correct with the airport authorities if they want to.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 64, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6778 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 60): That's the whole point -- a large number of NWA-operated flights are still NW, operated by NW (NWA flight number, NWA aircraft).
I don't think there's as many left as you think, especially based on an observation at just DFW. Having said that, I will ask you this again.......What would you have DL do??? Just stop everything now and wait or continue on and do the "prudent" thing and finish the job? I just don't understand what the big deal is. I'm sure there's not as much confusion as you let on or we'd sure hear much more of it, here on a.net. Any confusion that does result, I'm sure DL is relying on the employees to take care of it, as they would any problem such as that.
Just as an FYI, here's the status of re-branding at DFW........per Widgetheads.net
"Together and Rebranded/ NW moved to DL gates. Combined uses E11-E16, with E11 shared with AS. Completed 4/7
Seems the only real problem is outside the terminal.
[Edited 2009-07-10 15:55:42]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Nwaesc From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1911 posts, RR: 2 Reply 65, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6743 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 64): I don't think there's as many left as you think, especially based on an observation at just DFW.
Actually, depending on how fine a point you want to put on it, almost all of the NW flights, are still "NW flights" per se.
The only exceptions would be some of the East coast flying that's been taken over from DL (ie. BDL-Florida), and the few Int'l examples out of ATL, JFK, etc.
...And for the love of God; please nobody chime in about how DL now owns NW. I figured that was already assumed; I'm just talking about "regular" flights day in/day out.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 66, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6659 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 63): IMHO, that's exactly the way it should be until they get rid of NW flight numbers and complete the merger under a single name and operating certificate.
I realize that's your opinion, which you are entitled to, but I'm confused about the reasoning. Is it just so a few customers won't initially be confused by this merger or what?
And maybe DL has told DFW to change the signs.......but, nothing happens quickly when you're dealing with a gov't. body, does it?
I just think that DL is going about it exactly the way they should.....the sooner everything is re-branded, the sooner customers will be familiar with what's going on.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
EXMEMWIDGET From United States, joined Jan 2004, 154 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6643 times:
I guess there are no hybrid aircraft paint jobs as the result of the DL/NW merger or at least I haven't seen one. I sure remember all of those garish paint jobs on the ex RC planes after NW and RC merged. Yuk!!
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 68, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6629 times:
Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 67): I guess there are no hybrid aircraft paint jobs as the result of the DL/NW merger or at least I haven't seen one. I sure remember all of those garish paint jobs on the ex RC planes after NW and RC merged. Yuk!!
I don't think you'll seen any hybrids, except maybe for some stickered aircraft.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 70, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6492 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 64): Having said that, I will ask you this again.......What would you have DL do???
I think this would be important in finding out what he feels should be done instead of what they are doing now.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 62): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 58):
Do you just really not like Delta??? If that is so then you should just say that and get this over with. This is getting kind of ridiculous.
Huh? Where did I say that? I just flew DL/NWA to Hawaii and back on the Upper Deck of a 744, and loved it. So this has nothing to do with my liking or not liking Delta.
Umm, I never said that you said that, I'm just asking and how would I have known that you flew on a DL 744 to HNL??? But I do like how you missed the rest of my post and what others such as Mayor have put up.......WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD??? If it is just the signage out front then as I said before.....
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 58): Delta CANNOT CHANGE THOSE SIGNS, that is the job of the DFW Authority.
Argonaut From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Dec 2004, 331 posts, RR: 0 Reply 71, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6113 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 48): I am referring to potential confusion even before they get to the terminal and counters, when they see no signs on the roadway markings for Northwest anymore
Quoting Mayor (Reply 24): Remember, much of the signage OUTSIDE of the terminal, in terms of directions, etc. is the responsibility of the airport authority
Quoting Commavia (Reply 57): The signs hanging from the overhang by the passenger pick-up/drop-off area at Terminal 5 (like at all the terminals) said Delta | Northwest
Same thing at BWI when I drove there earlier today: "Delta/Northwest", with the DL/Citgo widget. Presumably an interim move, but full marks to the airport authority for helpfulness.
Quoting MCOatc (Reply 25): I am a bit surprised that the NW website does not include a bit more DL branding to indicate the common company.
Agreed. Seems an obvious thing to do; curious that they haven't.
Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 51): the end they are all customers and no matter what condition they're in they should be respected and helped
Absolutely!
We in this forum know the airline world well, but most customers probably don't, or have misconceptions about it, and (as another poster pointed out) are frequently anxious about what to them is a complex and often mystifying process.
Knowing & understanding your customers surely makes good business sense, doesn't it? See things from their point of view. Don't blame them for their lack of savvy! Anticipate their needs, no matter how daft they might seem to you, and in a heartbeat they'll be relieved and happy. Help them avoid things that could give them trouble (the matter under discussion is certainly one, and a very predictable one at that). Help them, serve them, respect them. Why let such easily-corrected problems turn a potentially satisfied customer into a frustrated one?
Hey, they might just respond by giving you their future business.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6067 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 70): WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD??? If it is just the signage out front then as I said before.....
And as I said before, Delta can absolutely work with the airport authorities on the road signage. The airport basically (and within reason) put on thoses signs what the airlines want them to. Remember the days on Northwest/KLM signage? You think the airports all around the world independently came up with that? But you refuse to accept that the airlines have a key input in the airport roadway signage.
The more you, Mayor, etc debate this, the more clear it becomes that some, if not most, airline employees just do not know how to take input or feedback from customers, without attacking them or doubting their motives.
AndrewUber From United States, joined Jul 2003, 2405 posts, RR: 53 Reply 73, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6010 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under.
Quite an arrogant statement - not all airline passengers are lurkers here on Airliners.net.
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them.
You are aware that the general public can obtain airline tickets on other sources right? There are websites out there (Orbitz, Expedia, TravelZoo, etc) who sell tickets that are still branded as "Northwest" and "Delta".
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 75, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5933 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 72): And as I said before, Delta can absolutely work with the airport authorities on the road signage. The airport basically (and within reason) put on thoses signs what the airlines want them to. Remember the days on Northwest/KLM signage? You think the airports all around the world independently came up with that? But you refuse to accept that the airlines have a key input in the airport roadway signage.
The more you, Mayor, etc debate this, the more clear it becomes that some, if not most, airline employees just do not know how to take input or feedback from customers, without attacking them or doubting their motives.
I'm not going to go on with this silly debate anymore. But if you would take the time to look at my profile I DON'T WORK FOR THE AIRLINES!!!!!! Can I ask though where Mayor or myself have attacked you or doubted your motive ALL WE TRIED TO DO IS EXPLAIN WHY DL MAY BE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING. As I have said before I AM NOT AN AIRLINE EMPLOYEE AND I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT DL OR ANY OTHER AIRLINE DOES.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5727 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 75): Can I ask though where Mayor or myself have attacked you or doubted your motive ALL WE TRIED TO DO IS EXPLAIN WHY DL MAY BE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING
Perhaps when you suggested to me out of the blue that I should just admit that "I just really dont like Delta" and get over with it? These kinds of emotional comments dont usually come from people not closely connected (and usually employed by, or is close to someone employed by) the said company.
Edited to add: I see you work for Air Traffic Control. So while not an airline employee, it does make you part of the same industry, which explains why you seem to see things as "us vs them" where the customers are the "them".
Mayor also refers to the Widgethead magazine, which to me sounds like an internal Delta magazine, which would not typically be available to non-employees.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7360 posts, RR: 16 Reply 77, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5603 times:
I'd say the reason why the Northwest name is disappearing is that it's a conscious decision by Delta to try and get rid of the NW name as quickly as possible - the quicker they appear as one unified brand, the better off (or so goes the thinking in pretty much any marketing environment out there).
The small stickers there showing "Now Serving NWA" are enough to drive away confusion inside the terminal, but still make it clear that the new airline is Delta (which is what marketing wants) - in the minds of most marketing folks, the less NW recognition and the more DL, the better.
As for airline codes, it's the joys of res systems. When you've got one airline (DL) on a vintage early-1960s res platform, another airline on a vintage late-1960s res platform, it's the year 2009, and you're trying to combine the two together, it's a major task. It's not as simple as having all flights just pop up as a DL codeshare in the NW res platform.
There's a huge difference in comparing Northwest/KLM on road signs and Delta/Northwest. If the airlines are at completely separate counters (as they are at LAX, even though both airlines are at T5), it makes sense for Delta to do so. If they're at the same counter (which is most of the stations in the network), DL wants those customers to get used to the DL name/branding (again, see my above point). With Northwest/KLM, it was about joint marketing - they were still two separate companies - this is not the case of Delta/Northwest.
Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2193 posts, RR: 6 Reply 78, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5505 times:
Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 73): Quite an arrogant statement - not all airline passengers are lurkers here on Airliners.net.
You don't need to be a lurker on A.net to know these two airlines are merging. If people are too oblivious to even watch the news on an occasional basis.... WOW.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Kevin752 From United States, joined Jul 2003, 682 posts, RR: 7 Reply 79, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5472 times:
Pax have been notified about where to check in. Also as part of the merger signage needs to be chaged as quick as possible. We at Delta are tryig trying to make the merger very smooth. I think that DL has done a great job. NW at SNA where I work is no longer posted at the gate and when the flights are annouced NW is not mentioned as part of the merger. At the airport we are also exposing the NW pax to the Delta branding and mentioning the Breezeway and Skymiles program.
USPIT10L From United States, joined Mar 2006, 2666 posts, RR: 9 Reply 80, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5387 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 76): Mayor also refers to the Widgethead magazine, which to me sounds like an internal Delta magazine, which would not typically be available to non-employees.
Actually, Widgetheads is not internal at DL at all. It is run by a A.net memeber to keep fans of the airline informed about the merger/integration without using the internal DL or NW systems.
Tsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 81, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5312 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often).
Ain't that the truth. Just the other day in Terminal 2 a lady asked me where NW was and she was standing right in front of it! All she had to do was look lol
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7360 posts, RR: 16 Reply 82, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5286 times:
Quoting Kevin752 (Reply 79): At the airport we are also exposing the NW pax to the Delta branding and mentioning the Breezeway and Skymiles program.
Breezeway should be mentioned - it's SOP across the system now. Big thing is making sure it's executed properly. which is something that is hit or miss and I know the powers that be in Atlanta are working on making sure rogue stations fall in line.
At this point, SkyMiles and WorldPerks are two different programs, and it probably isn't a good idea to only refer people to SkyMiles for the time being. While 95% of the FFP is aligned, and to most non-elites it's not a big deal, there are still quite a few differences - there are certain airline partners that can only be used with NW (MH, Jet, Kingfisher) or DL (Avianca, Singapore). Also different variations on upgrades (on NW metal, officially only NW Plats/Golds are eligible for upgrades on award tickets - the official line is DL Plats/Golds are not eligible on NW metal; companion upgrade rules are also different (a Plat companion is treated as equal to the Plat on NW metal; on DL metal the Plat and the companion are both lower than a Silver on their own); on NW metal, elites and companions get bag waivers, on DL metal it's only the elite, etc.
Until October when SkyMiles becomes the only program, there are still substantial differences between WorldPerks and SkyMiles and those will remain until the combination of programs. Even there, after October it will be One FFP, Two Airlines with different rules if someone is on NW metal or DL metal.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 83, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5100 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 72): The more you, Mayor, etc debate this, the more clear it becomes that some, if not most, airline employees just do not know how to take input or feedback from customers, without attacking them or doubting their motives.
Apparently, you don't pay attention to ALL of what we say, just the parts that you don't like.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 59): Then again, you made the observation at ONE airport. While it's a legitimate problem for you (and well founded), I don't think that one observation is enough for DL to change their entire re-branding and re-painting program at this point. Again, it's better for them to do it, now, than wait and have to rush to do it later. Be patient.......it should be entirely done by the end of the year......at that point, about all you have left to see are the a/c that haven't been painted, yet and even those will probably have DL stickers on them.
I wrote this on reply 59. I don't see where it's not taking input from passengers (which, quite frankly, I don't have to do, anymore as I'm retired). All I was doing, if you'd care to read it, was explain why I thought DL was doing it the way they were, one of several times I've stated the same thing. While I understand your concerns, unfortunately, I don't think they warrant changing around the complete re-branding and re-painting schedule to accomodate a few passengers. It's easier for DL to let the employees alleviate these problems with the customers as they happen.
Also, in all the mergers I've seen or been involved with, I don't recall the surviving airline waiting until the SOC to completed re-branding or re-painting. So, what DL is doing is nothing new.......just SOP as far as I can see.
BTW, this is your title of this thread "Why Has Delta Removed The Northwest Name Already? "
You asked, we told you. Just because you didn't like our answers doesn't make you right and us wrong.Just my two cents, which I am also entitled to.
[Edited 2009-07-10 20:08:57]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
CFBFrame From United States, joined May 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0 Reply 84, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4889 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 60): That's the whole point -- a large number of NWA-operated flights are still NW, operated by NW (NWA flight number, NWA aircraft).
Here's the issue- people are getting ahead of the process. If you have NW flight numbers flying into an airport, leave the NW signage up. Whether you've changed terminals or done something else inside the terminal, let the customer know where to go to get checked in.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 63): IMHO, that's exactly the way it should be until they get rid of NW flight numbers and complete the merger under a single name and operating certificate.
Just don't get too far ahead of yourself. I like hearing the people at the gate are calling NW flights DL despite flight numbers are still NW. Don't you think that might be confusing. Hey, isn't Delta the airline that has very few human announcements made at gates anyway?
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 63): However I believe there are several airports that are doing it the way I see it at DFW, and it is certainly something Delta can correct with the airport authorities if they want to.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 64): What would you have DL do???
Hope that has been explained above
Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 65): Actually, depending on how fine a point you want to put on it, almost all of the NW flights, are still "NW flights" per se.
Do you think this causes confusion? So no matter what you do, if the flight numbers are NW, customers are not buying a merger. You might think you are, but the public is not getting the claim.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 66): I just think that DL is going about it exactly the way they should.....the sooner everything is re-branded, the sooner customers will be familiar with what's going on.
That probably is coming from the eyes of someone who is in the know and not someone trying to figure out how a flight number they have is for an airline that has no airport signage. Many of you here think the world should know DL/NW have merged, but that's not the person you should worry about. The process should be based on the stupid person and how you make 90% of those folks feel comfortable about flying. Never assume your customer is smart, help them feel as if they are smart.
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 75): I'm not going to go on with this silly debate anymore. But if you would take the time to look at my profile I DON'T WORK FOR THE AIRLINES!!!!!! Can I ask though where Mayor or myself have attacked you or doubted your motive ALL WE TRIED TO DO IS EXPLAIN WHY DL MAY BE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING. As I have said before I AM NOT AN AIRLINE EMPLOYEE AND I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT DL OR ANY OTHER AIRLINE DOES.
And you say that to say what? Most of us are using the same system then. Right?
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 77): As for airline codes, it's the joys of res systems. When you've got one airline (DL) on a vintage early-1960s res platform, another airline on a vintage late-1960s res platform, it's the year 2009, and you're trying to combine the two together, it's a major task. It's not as simple as having all flights just pop up as a DL codeshare in the NW res platform.
I really like this one. The airline says the systems are tough to integrate and the customer should bear with them while they work through their 1960s technology merger. But while we go through it the customers should live through NW flight numbers, FFP merger, no NW signage entering the airport, and gate attendants eliminating announcing NW flight numbers. I think we will respect you if you're willing to respect us enough to make the merger dumb enough for 90% to come down the learning curve with you. NEVER MAKE AN ASSUMPTION YOUR CUSTOMER WILL GET AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT IF YOU DON'T. Whether your thinking a good job is being done, the only way you really know is when people stop posting these type threads. Then you know you did it right. So you still think you did it right?
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 85, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4799 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 78): You don't need to be a lurker on A.net to know these two airlines are merging. If people are too oblivious to even watch the news on an occasional basis.... WOW.
I bet somebody could watch the nightly news every day, and not remember that NW and DL are merging. It doesn't come up all that often, and It really isn't that big a deal to most other people. I'll do an informal poll around my workplace, if you want - highly educated people, and fairly frequent travelers. I'd guess maybe half know.
Really - did you know Dow and Rohm and Haas are going through a messy merger? It's been in the news. Genentech and Roche? These things are relevant to my field, so I remember what I hear about them. I don't expect others to.
Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2193 posts, RR: 6 Reply 87, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4769 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 85): Really - did you know Dow and Rohm and Haas are going through a messy merger?
I really don't care if they merged. When somebody buys a ticket to fly, they should know who they are buying the ticket on and atleast figure out what to do before going to the airport....
Of course most these people who can't figure out what they are doing when they buy a NW/DL ticket are the ones that don't pay attention to the road while driving
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Nwaesc From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1911 posts, RR: 2 Reply 88, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4769 times:
Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 84): Do you think this causes confusion? So no matter what you do, if the flight numbers are NW, customers are not buying a merger. You might think you are, but the public is not getting the claim.
That was my whole point. Sorry if that wasn't clear...
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 89, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4756 times:
For my two cents, this thread has gotten very hostile, and I don't know why. The original observation was at one airport only, DFW. The last few airports I've been through, I'm pretty sure the airport road signs and outside terminal markings said Delta/Northwest. As it should, in my opinion. I wonder which is the norm.
If DFW is the unusual outlier, then it really isn't worth the argument, anyway.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4731 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 78): You don't need to be a lurker on A.net to know these two airlines are merging. If people are too oblivious to even watch the news on an occasional basis.... WOW.
Even if we were to accept that this was the case for most US-based passengers, what about passengers from other countries? What is happening in the US airline industry is not necessarily top of mind in the rest of the world, you know.
Put yourself in their shoes. Suppose you were an American visitor in India for the first time, holding an Indian Airlines ticket with an Indian Airlines flight number, but when you show up at the airport there are no signs directing you to Indian Airlines, only to Air India. What if you were then told "everyone should know the two airlines have merged, and it should be obvious you need to follow the Air India signs".
You think the average non-Indian customer knows that Air India and Indian Airlines have merged, that Jet Airways and Air Sahara have merged, that Kingfisher and Air Deccan have merged? But this is big news in India!
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 91, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4734 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 87):
I really don't care if they merged. When somebody buys a ticket to fly, they should know who they are buying the ticket on and atleast figure out what to do before going to the airport....
Well, that's an entirely different statement from your previous one, and it proves my point. Expecting somebody to read the entire confirmation email is a totally different matter from expecting somebody to remember all the business merger information that might be mentioned on the nightly news.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 92, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4681 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 90):
Put yourself in their shoes. Suppose you were an American visitor in India for the first time, holding an Indian Airlines ticket with an Indian Airlines flight number, but when you show up at the airport there are no signs directing you to Indian Airlines, only to Air India. What if you were then told "everyone should know the two airlines have merged, and it should be obvious you need to follow the Air India signs".
That reminds me: If I remember correctly, back when IC was the only domestic carrier, Terminal 1A and 1B at DEL were separated by Airbus and Boeing. You had to know what aircraft you were flying to go to the right terminal. I'm sure that caught American visitors off guard.
Am i correct on this? This was at least ten years back.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4680 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 91): Well, that's an entirely different statement from your previous one, and it proves my point. Expecting somebody to read the entire confirmation email is a totally different matter from expecting somebody to remember all the business merger information that might be mentioned on the nightly news.
Curiously though, I just went to nwa.com and went thru the steps to buy a ticket from DFW-MSP and back. I got to the "Purchase my ticket now" step, and upto that point, there was not one mention -- none, zip, nada -- of Delta anywhere on any of the screens. The web site is NWA, the flights listed were NWA, the FFP program tab was World Perks and not SkyMiles, so basically if you did not already know that the Delta and NWA are not merged, you could have bought your ticket without anything telling you about the connection between the two airlines.
So then this poor passenger shows up at the airport and sees no signage for NWA on the roadways, somehow finds the right terminal, and finds his NW flight being referred to as a DL flight in the gate announcements, but it is his fault for maybe getting a tad confused?
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 94, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4666 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 92): That reminds me: If I remember correctly, back when IC was the only domestic carrier, Terminal 1A and 1B at DEL were separated by Airbus and Boeing. You had to know what aircraft you were flying to go to the right terminal. I'm sure that caught American visitors off guard.
Am i correct on this? This was at least ten years back.
You are correct. I certainly dont use IC as an example of best practices, but just to make my point about how some things are obvious to some people, but not to others.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 95, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4622 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 93): Curiously though, I just went to nwa.com and went thru the steps to buy a ticket from DFW-MSP and back.
I did the same, actually, just to see. I'm sure at some point after you bought the ticket, you'd have gotten some message explaining it.
Though it depends on how you buy the ticket - I've got a friend's itinerary here, booked through a travel agent, and that says nothing about Delta. It does specify the departure and arrival terminals, though.
Still, you might be making a mountain out of a molehill. If DFW is not typical, and most airports do have DL/NW markings on the outside of the terminals, then there isn't a problem. You've got a sample size of one.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 96, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4579 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 95): Still, you might be making a mountain out of a molehill. If DFW is not typical, and most airports do have DL/NW markings on the outside of the terminals, then there isn't a problem. You've got a sample size of one.
I agree -- if indeed Delta/Northwest signage is being used in most airports, then it is much less of an issue and Delta just needs to work with DFW and any other exceptions. However then what would all those who have passionately defended the logic of removing all NWA signage ASAP have to say about Delta retaining the Delta/NWA signage at most airports?
VC10DC10 From United States, joined Apr 2006, 750 posts, RR: 0 Reply 97, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4452 times:
Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 1): Part of the problem is the change over has taken too long. They should have stopped selling NW branded tickets by now. All the flights should have a DL number and the NW signage should be pretty much gone from a customer viewpoint.
I could never disagree more. The day Northwest disappears is the day that company loses my business. I'll fly Delta when a snowflake has a chance in Purgatory. For that matter, I'll continue to refer to specifically Northwest properties as that: Northwest properties, just as MSP's Gold Concourse is still the Gold Concourse whether or not somebody wants to put a "G Concourse" sign on it.
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 21): if Detla were to have waited longer to change the signage there would still be considerable confusion down the road as at SOME POINT they would have to change from NW to DL.
Not if Delta had done the intelligent thing, as Air France did when it acquired KLM. Heaven forfend if there should be two different airlines, SOCs, and liveries flying about the skies.
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 33):
if you buy a NW ticket with a NW flight number, I don't fault somebody for looking for a NW counter.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 48): We are not talking about NW xxx Operated by Delta or Delta xxx Operated by NWA. We are talking about NW xxx operated by NWA! These are still two separate airlines in terms of operating certificates and flight numbers, though under common ownership.
Indeed. Again, why Delta is hell-bent on destroying the 83-year-old brand of Northwest Airlines is a mystery to me. Then again, they'll never have me as a customer if they were the last airline on Earth.
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 55): You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
Er, surely Delta pays rent to the airport, and might thus find itself in a position to negotiate???
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 98, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4432 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 83): BTW, this is your title of this thread "Why Has Delta Removed The Northwest Name Already? "
You asked, we told you. Just because you didn't like our answers doesn't make you right and us wrong.Just my two cents, which I am also entitled to.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 76): Edited to add: I see you work for Air Traffic Control. So while not an airline employee, it does make you part of the same industry, which explains why you seem to see things as "us vs them" where the customers are the "them".
How so, please elaborate?? I'm just a bit confused as to why you might think that it would matter to me either way???
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 99, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4424 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 21):
if Detla were to have waited longer to change the signage there would still be considerable confusion down the road as at SOME POINT they would have to change from NW to DL.
Not if Delta had done the intelligent thing, as Air France did when it acquired KLM. Heaven forfend if there should be two different airlines, SOCs, and liveries flying about the skies.
So that is the only way to have a merger go down??? In any industry too??? This happens in many US industries where one company name is kept. Using the AF/KL merger is a bit ridiculous though as you are comparing 2 major airlines from 2 different countries, apples and oranges my friend.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 55):
You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
Er, surely Delta pays rent to the airport, and might thus find itself in a position to negotiate???
Quite so Delta would pay rent and would thus have a reason to make sure that all proper signage is used but Delta wants to operate under one name, DELTA.
We're talking about airlines, and no other industry, old sport.
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 99): Using the AF/KL merger is a bit ridiculous though as you are comparing 2 major airlines from 2 different countries,
Er, surely Northwest and Delta should each be considered "major airlines," each with very distinct markets and strategies. I submit much the same could be said of Air France and Delta.
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 99): apples and oranges my friend.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 101, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4316 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): Indeed. Again, why Delta is hell-bent on destroying the 83-year-old brand of Northwest Airlines is a mystery to me. Then again, they'll never have me as a customer if they were the last airline on Earth.
We know, we know. You've told us that, ad nauseum. Yours is not exactly an objective viewpoint, anyway. How, exactly is DL "destroying" NW's brand? Rather harsh words, don't you think? DL is doing what any surviving carrier would do (AF/KL are the exception, rather than the rule) and making one common brand. Do you not think that the "sainted" folks at CO might have the same thing in mind if and when they were to merge with UA? UA will disappear in a heartbeat. It's the way of business and it happens in any business. Whatever is most visible to the public is what gets changed first.....the rest happens as it can be done.
BTW, this argument is going nowhere because I can give you as many reasons why DL is doing it the right way as you can find reasons why they're not. Who's correct??
Why, me, of course!
[Edited 2009-07-11 07:19:53]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 103, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4177 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 102): the SOC is granted do you think we will see DL put stickers on the remaining NW aircraft that are still waiting to be repainted?
I would think so.....then they might slow down the re-painting schedule, somewhat or at least start to repaint some of the DL a/c, again. IIRC, I thought DL said that the entire NW fleet would be re-painted by the end of next year. I would imagine that the DC-9-30s aren't in that mix as they'll slowly go away, first before the 40s and 50s. The 30's could end up with stickers, only.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2204 posts, RR: 1 Reply 104, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4081 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 21): there ARE still many NW painted aircraft
Very true but I tip my hat to them as they have done a pretty good job at painting a/c for two major airlines with fleet sizes well over 400 each and regional carriers across the country.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97):
I could never disagree more. The day Northwest disappears is the day that company loses my business. I'll fly Delta when a snowflake has a chance in Purgatory. For that matter, I'll continue to refer to specifically Northwest properties as that: Northwest properties, just as MSP's Gold Concourse is still the Gold Concourse whether or not somebody wants to put a "G Concourse" sign on it.
So you will give up your business from the same hard working people that have been serving you for however long. I'm sure you're not the only person in the world with this mentality and the airline won't miss you. AA and others will be glad to take your business though.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97):
Not if Delta had done the intelligent thing, as Air France did when it acquired KLM. Heaven forfend if there should be two different airlines, SOCs, and liveries flying about the skies.
That worked for Air France and KLM. The one obvious reaon being they are two MAJOR national carriers. This type of marriage worked for them on several levels but I don't see the similarities between DL/NW and AF/KLM. Of course i'm getting ready for your comment below about how they serve two very different geopraphical areas...come on. Same can be said for US and AW. These two very very polar/ two different sides of the country in fact! And all the other airline mergers worldwide-not just the US- where one brand disappeared was just plain dumb.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): Indeed. Again, why Delta is hell-bent on destroying the 83-year-old brand of Northwest Airlines is a mystery to me. Then again, they'll never have me as a customer if they were the last airline on Earth.
Try driving, taking a bus, or a train from say Detroit to Los Angeles...and back. Your comments are very asinine and you have pure hatred for DL for whatever reason. I can only applaude that F/As/ gate agents etc don't have to deal with you.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 100): There are many reasons why this would be the most intelligent way for the "merger" to happen in this case.
Elaborate, please.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 100): Er, surely Northwest and Delta should each be considered "major airlines," each with very distinct markets and strategies. I submit much the same could be said of Air France and Delta.
Here it is!!!
Pure nonsense IMO.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
Pilotboi From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2253 posts, RR: 10 Reply 105, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4025 times:
Well Sankaps, I have bad news for you. Here's what's going down at MSP:
Beginning this week, Corporate Real Estate commenced rebranding signage at MSP Campus buildings and hangars. Weather permitting; all work will be finished by July 24.
The expected timeline is:
• July 6 – Removed NWA letters on the Building C Hangar. New Delta letters will be installed on July 16.
• July 8 – Removed NWA letters on the Building B Hangar and repaint the red band across the top of the building blue. New Delta letters will be installed on July 16.
• July 13-24 – Install new signage at Building A and Building N. Remove NWA Cargo sign outside of Building F and replace it with Delta Cargo sign. Install new Delta Cargo pylon sign at Building F.
Tommy767 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 2086 posts, RR: 10 Reply 106, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3990 times:
I'm flying LAX-MSP-LGA next month and I expect NOTHING but NW insignia and on both flights. I guess DL is prioritizing gates and paint than interior upgrades at this time.
"sailing takes me away to where I always knew it could be..." --Christopher Cross
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5249 posts, RR: 3 Reply 108, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3935 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): Indeed. Again, why Delta is hell-bent on destroying the 83-year-old brand of Northwest Airlines is a mystery to me. Then again, they'll never have me as a customer if they were the last airline on Earth.
What should they do? You know the faster they get this done the quicker they can make money and cash in on the savings of this merger. I guess they should just wait it out? Or better yet they can just make NWA a DCI brand.
I hated this merger as much as the next guy but jeesh folks its time to get over it. don't fly Delta anymore good for you. IMO no will really care. Its time to grow up a bit and let it go. This is life.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 48): We are not talking about NW xxx Operated by Delta or Delta xxx Operated by NWA. We are talking about NW xxx operated by NWA! These
Ok so MQ (owned by AA) OH(owned by Delta) CP(owned by Delta) and XJ(owned by Delta) also should live by this? It isn't Delta Connection then? Its a comair flight? A ASA flight? and so on.
Fact is they are trying to make it so the public sees them as one airline. Sure they aren't one right now but you know NWA has about 4 months of life left. period. The faster they get things done the better life will be. BTW this merger has been one of the better mergers ever. Take notes on how its done.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7360 posts, RR: 16 Reply 109, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3913 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): Not if Delta had done the intelligent thing, as Air France did when it acquired KLM. Heaven forfend if there should be two different airlines, SOCs, and liveries flying about the skies.
Completely apples and oranges. Air France-KLM was the merger of two companies in two different countries. There are huge differences in regards to legally-binding route allocations, etc. between those two - not all countries have Open Skies (or bilaterals) with the EU. Putting a French (or Dutch) flag over the whole combined two would have had some huge drawbacks with those allocations.
And why wouldn't an airline want everyone on one SOC? Operationally, it's a ton more efficient to have one set of work rules, one group of employees, etc. Money is what matters - not the feelings of a bunch of airline enthusiasts (something that I think gets lost on this site way too much)
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): Indeed. Again, why Delta is hell-bent on destroying the 83-year-old brand of Northwest Airlines is a mystery to me. Then again, they'll never have me as a customer if they were the last airline on Earth.
Please see my above comments on marketing. While some companies do do dual branding (my company does this in Canada, for some reason), 99% of the time they want one unified brand and don't want to compete with each other. In most M&As, the sooner you get rid of the old brand, the better for getting customers to get used to the new brand. Forced assimilation pretty much, but it's effective.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 100):
Er, surely Northwest and Delta should each be considered "major airlines," each with very distinct markets and strategies. I submit much the same could be said of Air France and Delta.
Nowhere near as much as AF/KLM. See my route allocations comments earlier in this post. While DL and NW had some distinct markets and strategies, at their core they were US trunk carriers. NW served the upper midwest a bit more than DL, who in turn better served the Southeast. Pretty much all domestic consumers knew of both carriers though - the one exception might be in Asia, where DL historically has had a limited (and spotty) history. Then again, the NW name was hardly known in Latin America outside of pretty much some Mexican beach resorts - much different than DL.
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 102): When the SOC is granted do you think we will see DL put stickers on the remaining NW aircraft that are still waiting to be repainted?
They will have to do something. My guess is that they won't put huge DL stickers on the planes, but do something like put a decent-sized "Operated by Delta Air Lines" sticker somewhere on the plane; much like the DL-painted NW birds have the "Operated by Northwest Airlines" sticker on them.
Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 106): I'm flying LAX-MSP-LGA next month and I expect NOTHING but NW insignia and on both flights. I guess DL is prioritizing gates and paint than interior upgrades at this time.
Some cabin retrofits have commenced - some DC-9s and A319/A320s, plus some A330-200s have gotten leather seats inside. Most likely though, it'll be the old-style NW seats.
I'd look for more interior refits to be done in the Fall, once travel drops off even more than it currently has.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 110, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3901 times:
People are replying to anything and everything EXCEPT the OP's point.
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 108): Fact is they are trying to make it so the public sees them as one airline.
As well they should. They can take down all the NW banners and logos and carpets and lounges and anything else, inside the terminal. Put breezeways at every gate. Repaint all the planes. Absolutely, do all those things, as quickly as you can.
All the OP said is that on the road taking you to the terminal, the sign should simply say delta/northwest is at Terminal X, instead of omitting the NW name altogether. The pax have to find their way to the check-in counter somehow, before you can start exposing them to the DL brand.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 7 Reply 111, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3894 times:
I was at AMS today and it was really weird to see lots of DL aircraft instead of NW aircraft. It seems DL has been rapidly painting the a330's. Of the 4 a330's I saw this morning at AMS, only 1 was in NW colours. What's the latest in the NW to DL painting process?
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 112, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3878 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 110): People are replying to anything and everything EXCEPT the OP's point.
Including, you..........we have replied to what he asked and many of us have said what we believe to be the answer. I can't speak for the signage OUTSIDE of the terminal at DFW.....no matter how much DL might pressure the airport authority, it is STILL the airport authority's responsibility to change the signage. For all we know, DFW may not even realize that DL is even there, anymore.
The OP brought up ONE airport and this is supposed to be a TREND?? I hardly think so and it will all work out in the end. I hardly think that DL will stop their rebranding and repainting just because one airport is lax.
I suggest that Sankaps take his complaint to either the DFW airport authority or to DL (who man not even realize the problem exists) rather than complaining about it here on a.net. All you'll get here is a bunch of speculation (even from me) and members using this as an opportunity to bash DL.
[Edited 2009-07-11 12:02:03]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 114, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3855 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 112): The OP brought up ONE airport and this is supposed to be a TREND??
I pointed out the exact same thing to the OP. Reply #95. He agreed in reply #96.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 112): it is STILL the airport authority's responsibility to change the signage.
Which has also been noted. With those two points addressed, the topic should have died out a long time ago, but for some reason it goes on.
Maybe people are confusing the OP, who made a very specific complaint and not a general attack on DL, with another poster who seems to have a close emotional relationship with the NW brand.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 115, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3828 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 114): Maybe people are confusing the OP, who made a very specific complaint and not a general attack on DL, with another poster who seems to have a close emotional relationship with the NW brand.
No, but the OP made some confusing accusations against a few of us airline employees (retired or active) and ATC personnel (which I found rather funny). The other poster did seem to use this thread as an excuse to bash DL, though.
Just looking at the DFW website and they don't even list NW anywhere on the airport guide.
[Edited 2009-07-11 12:22:02]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 117, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3701 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 115): No, but the OP made some confusing accusations against a few of us airline employees (retired or active) and ATC personnel (which I found rather funny).
I am the OP. The only "accusation" I have made is that people in the industry tend to see things from the operational convenience / internal point of view, and do not necessarily see things from the customer convenience / external point of view. This thread pretty much validates this observation.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 119, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3686 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 110): All the OP said is that on the road taking you to the terminal, the sign should simply say delta/northwest is at Terminal X, instead of omitting the NW name altogether. The pax have to find their way to the check-in counter somehow, before you can start exposing them to the DL brand.
Amen. And perhaps start using Delta's name and logo on the nwa.com website as well. Rgiht now there is nothing in the "normal" nwa.com pages (ie if you ignore press releases and FAQs) that even hints at the Delta relationship.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 120, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3650 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 117): The only "accusation" I have made is that people in the industry tend to see things from the operational convenience / internal point of view, and do not necessarily see things from the customer convenience / external point of view.
Right. People aren't dumb just because they don't follow the business as closely as those in the business.
Even for people who do follow the business, and know there's a merger afoot - the process does not take place at the same rate at every single station. For the airports remaining where the gates are still separated, do they still have separate check-in counters?
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 122, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3491 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 115): Quoting Tharanga (Reply 114):
Maybe people are confusing the OP, who made a very specific complaint and not a general attack on DL, with another poster who seems to have a close emotional relationship with the NW brand.
No, but the OP made some confusing accusations against a few of us airline employees (retired or active) and ATC personnel (which I found rather funny).
I too rather thought this quite confusing and funny at the same time.
Kevin752 From United States, joined Jul 2003, 682 posts, RR: 7 Reply 123, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3493 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 82): Breezeway should be mentioned - it's SOP across the system now. Big thing is making sure it's executed properly. which is something that is hit or miss and I know the powers that be in Atlanta are working on making sure rogue stations fall in line.
Well with NWA / AOP PARS system not printing zones on he bp. It really is hard to board the flight according to DL standards. Also their BP's do no indicate breezeway like the DL ones do. I work at SNA so really untill we have one system its going to be more difficult to really do the breezeway boarding the right way but we menion it and we board by zone for NW flights. We make it work and we want the NW pax to be exposed to the DL products and branding.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 593 posts, RR: 1 Reply 124, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3473 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 121): Why not check on Widgetheads.net and see for yourself?
I actually did, and it wasn't obvious to me. He's sometimes got notes on ticketing for some stations on there; but the site is more convenient for seeing if the gates are together. I assume if the gates are in entirely different terminals, there's probably still separate check-in. If the gates are together and rebranded, can I assume there is only one ticket counter?
Luckyone From United States, joined Aug 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0 Reply 125, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3467 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 97): I could never disagree more. The day Northwest disappears is the day that company loses my business. I'll fly Delta when a snowflake has a chance in Purgatory. For that matter, I'll continue to refer to specifically Northwest properties as that: Northwest properties, just as MSP's Gold Concourse is still the Gold Concourse whether or not somebody wants to put a "G Concourse" sign on it.
Do you hear yourself? Using your logic much of Northwest's current (or is it past now??LOL) route structure should be referred to as it was during the Republic days... This is business.
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 109): There are huge differences in regards to legally-binding route allocations, etc. between those two - not all countries have Open Skies (or bilaterals) with the EU. Putting a French (or Dutch) flag over the whole combined two would have had some huge drawbacks with those allocations.
Check and double check. If they could be merged, they would, and may still from a cost perspective. Just a guess but if the EU further integrates and moves to a joint treaty-negotiating body this will happen.
This merger has been all over CNN and has been reported ad nauseum well away from the a.net circle. My 82 year old grandmother knew about it, and she hasn't been on a plane in ten years.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2204 posts, RR: 1 Reply 126, posted (5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3306 times:
Quoting Kevin752 (Reply 123):
Well with NWA / AOP PARS system not printing zones on he bp. It really is hard to board the flight according to DL standards. Also their BP's do no indicate breezeway like the DL ones do. I work at SNA so really untill we have one system its going to be more difficult to really do the breezeway boarding the right way but we menion it and we board by zone for NW flights. We make it work and we want the NW pax to be exposed to the DL products and branding.
Good for you! That's the attitude that we all should see and display system wide. Of course that would be all but impossible to get EVERYONE on board but overall I think the people on both sides are doing a heck of a job to make this work. You don't, you're only screwing yourself is what I always say.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
Burnsie28 From United States, joined Aug 2004, 6254 posts, RR: 16 Reply 127, posted (5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3025 times:
Had Delta been smart, and since they just had to have NW's network, they should have done a KLM/Air France type deal... from the news reports and others with other airlines, NW/DL has lost many of the NW Frequent Flyers.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
JMV From United States, joined Jan 2000, 241 posts, RR: 1 Reply 128, posted (5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2672 times:
Although I'm flying every week, my experience with the merger must be fairly limited, as it seems to be going fairly smoothly, all things considered.
At some point the duel branding will have to stop so Delta can recognize the cost savings of not having to market two airlines - for example, maintaining two web sites.
My only regret is I've heard they are closing the Sky Club in IAD now that it appears they've consolidated the old Northwest gates to the far end of B concourse where Delta has been. Though the club was showing its age, it was still nice to pop in there before my flights home.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7360 posts, RR: 16 Reply 129, posted (5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2655 times:
Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 127): they should have done a KLM/Air France type deal... from the news reports and others with other airlines, NW/DL has lost many of the NW Frequent Flyers.
If DL had gone the route of the Air France/KLM FFP, there would be no one left - by far the worst major FFP in the world.
Instead of being a DL Platinum, I'd be a proud ExPlat at AA or 1K at United instead.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 1517 posts, RR: 0 Reply 130, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2227 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 118): So I guess the situation exists in at least 2 airports (DFW and FLL), with a third airport (MSN) possibly being added on Monday.
You need to visit Widgetheads to figure out there alot more airports where there is no NW signage any more then maybe you will stop with these posts.
Having low expectations means you won't be disapointed.
NWAESC From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1911 posts, RR: 2 Reply 133, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1917 times:
Quoting Rj777 (Reply 131): on a flight from FAI-MSP, I was just on a NW 757 (In Delta Colors), but the safety card was still NW.
They're slowly swapping them out. Not sure if it's by fleet type, or individual A/C. For example, a couple of the RON A320's in my station today had DL cards, but the DC9 turn did not.
Had Delta been smart, and since they just had to have NW's network, they should have done a KLM/Air France type deal... from the news reports and others with other airlines, NW/DL has lost many of the NW Frequent Flyers.
I'm with you, Burnsie. Once SOC happens, my flying will be done on another carrier.
One would think the financial guys and girls at DL would recognize that NW's system was well-run and valuable in itself, indeed, worth more than the sum of its parts.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 137, posted (4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1596 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 135): I'm with you, Burnsie. Once SOC happens, my flying will be done on another carrier.
One would think the financial guys and girls at DL would recognize that NW's system was well-run and valuable in itself, indeed, worth more than the sum of its parts.
Burnsie has his own agenda on why he hates DL. What's yours? Unless you can show me where DL is dismantling the NW system, as you both imply, I'll reserve judgement on what they are doing. Besides, why does integrating the airline into one carrier seem to be a bad thing to you?
Neither one of you are old enough to ever have been CEOs or managers at a major airline and I know I wasn't one, either. Therefore, how do you think you can do a better job of integrating the two airlines than the people at DL have, so far? I haven't seen any monumental mistakes made so far and, in fact, much of what has been done, lately, is because of the economy, not the merger. How many airline mergers have the two of you been personally involved in, BTW? I've been involved in 3 and you can't imagine the amount of details that have to be taken care of, even at the station level, let alone systemwide.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
VC10DC10 From United States, joined Apr 2006, 750 posts, RR: 0 Reply 138, posted (4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1538 times:
Mayor, the reassignment of NW's A330s -- and their excellent onboard amenities -- to prime DL routes, while assigning run-down DL767s to important NW routes strikes me as the first sign of a serious dismantlement. Second, as discussions on FlyerTalk show, NW's clubs, elite program, and frequent flyer program are being diluted with substandard DL products.
I dislike integration because NW is my home town airline, I admire NW's long-term strategy (which in many ways is unchanged from decades ago, because if it ain't broke why fix it), and I deeply respect NW's 83-year heritage -- the oldest airline in the United States.
If DL is not dismantling NW, demonstrate one thing about NW that will remain in the "new" Delta, apart from physical assets.
DeltaCTO From United States, joined Mar 2009, 111 posts, RR: 0 Reply 139, posted (4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1471 times:
Everyone said DTW and MSP would be immediately dismantled - all routes shifted to ATL. Instead ATL is losing international routes in favor of DTW. Perhaps it is really going to be the best of NW and DL ??
CIDflyer From United States, joined Apr 2005, 1401 posts, RR: 3 Reply 140, posted (4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1451 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 138): If DL is not dismantling NW, demonstrate one thing about NW that will remain in the "new" Delta, apart from physical assets.
for me, personally, I can only speak of here at my hometown airport in CID, but the new DL is looking lot like the old NW, with flights only to MSP and DTW. Flights on the "old DL" to CVG and ATL end mid August So much for more hub choices
Lexy From United States, joined Jun 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 8 Reply 141, posted (4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1436 times:
Quoting DeltaCTO (Reply 139): Everyone said DTW and MSP would be immediately dismantled - all routes shifted to ATL. Instead ATL is losing international routes in favor of DTW. Perhaps it is really going to be the best of NW and DL ??
Perhaps. What you are seeing is routes that are not profitable going away. Notice though, ATL has kept, and in some regards gained more, service to core international cities like AMS, NRT, LHR, etc. I think what you are seeing is a bit of "right-sizing" the service in regards to both frequency, equipment, and timing.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7360 posts, RR: 16 Reply 142, posted (4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1442 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 138): Mayor, the reassignment of NW's A330s -- and their excellent onboard amenities -- to prime DL routes, while assigning run-down DL767s to important NW routes strikes me as the first sign of a serious dismantlement. Second, as discussions on FlyerTalk show, NW's clubs, elite program, and frequent flyer program are being diluted with substandard DL products.
Here are the routes that have lost/are losing A330s:
In some cases, yeah - they're downgrades. In some cases, it's an improvement (I'd say the lie-flats on MSP/DTW-LHR are better than the angled lie-flats on the A330s; coach is a push). One route still has an A330 on it as well (NRT-GUM is 1x A330, 1x 763), another has the KLM product on it indirectly (EWR-AMS/JFK-AMS).
Despite all the gloom and doom on NW's FlyerTalk forum, the WorldClubs have not gone downhill that much. Sure, you can't get carrots and cheese all day. Breakfast options are the same, the cookies are still there, and the lounges are going Self-Serve systemwide (except where prohibited by law - meaning ATL will still have bartenders). It's a change in philosophy - NW viewed clubs as a convenience, DL views them as areas that need to sustain themselves.
The FFP - well, NW's program was in some cases too good. Overly competitive, which has costs - FFP's aren't free things to run. I think most elites care most about the free upgrades, which are untouched. Here's some actual numbers provided to FlyerTalkers from Delta leadership (Jeff Robertson/VP Loyalty Programs and Josh Weiss/Managing Director, delta.com): http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...-delta-q-meeting-execs-notes.html. It would have cost DL $250m a year to run a program where the best of both programs was taken - Richard Anderson shot that one down himself. With the 125% bonus for Plats/50% bonus for Silvers, no airline does that anymore. CO stopped it earlier this year. Simply uncompetitive with every other airline out there. Award redemption fees? All the other majors have it. It's still waived for Plats as well. Sure, the award deposit fee was a bit of a boondoggle, but DL at least gave in some ground. Again, all other airlines require redeposit fees to some extent. When an award ticket is redeposited, those seats do not go back into award inventory - some people were abusing the system simply too much an it was having an effect.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 143, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1263 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 138): If DL is not dismantling NW, demonstrate one thing about NW that will remain in the "new" Delta, apart from physical assets.
Well, the execs and managers, for one.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 138): Mayor, the reassignment of NW's A330s -- and their excellent onboard amenities -- to prime DL routes, while assigning run-down DL767s to important NW routes strikes me as the first sign of a serious dismantlement. Second, as discussions on FlyerTalk show, NW's clubs, elite program, and frequent flyer program are being diluted with substandard DL products.
Perhaps everyone, including those on FlyerTalk should be patient and wait for the integration to be complete before passing judgement.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 138): I dislike integration because NW is my home town airline, I admire NW's long-term strategy (which in many ways is unchanged from decades ago, because if it ain't broke why fix it), and I deeply respect NW's 83-year heritage -- the oldest airline in the United States.
I also respect NW's heritage.....but I also respect DL's 80 year heritage......NW's heritage will not be forgotten......it's in your hearts and minds just as it is for those that worked for or travelled on Chicago & Southern, NE, WA and PA.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 146, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1067 times:
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 130):
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 118):
So I guess the situation exists in at least 2 airports (DFW and FLL), with a third airport (MSN) possibly being added on Monday.
You need to visit Widgetheads to figure out there alot more airports where there is no NW signage any more then maybe you will stop with these posts.
Good, constructive advice. So I guess every Delta passenger needs to know about Widgetheads to get this kind of info...!
Not even sure you followed the original point being made!
Oh, right -- the truth I've been pointing out, and the truth that the DL praise chorus keeps shuffling under the carpet -- that the "merger of equals" was a lie and NW is being swiftly dismembered.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 148, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 913 times:
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 147): Oh, right -- the truth I've been pointing out, and the truth that the DL praise chorus keeps shuffling under the carpet -- that the "merger of equals" was a lie and NW is being swiftly dismembered.
747F operations, anyone?
Check your messages.
BTW, I don't know what all the complaining is about. From what I've heard DL is treating NW much better than NW did Republic. Oh, sorry....you weren't around for that were you?
[Edited 2009-07-22 14:46:29]
[Edited 2009-07-22 14:47:05]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
BTW, I don't know what all the complaining is about. From what I've heard DL is treating NW much better than NW did Republic. Oh, sorry....you weren't around for that were you?
Yeah I don't get why these young folks on here are so angry about the DL/NW merger. They are really emotional about it and when someone has something positive to say about DL you're just a crazy Delta lover.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 150, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 803 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 149): Yeah I don't get why these young folks on here are so angry about the DL/NW merger. They are really emotional about it and when someone has something positive to say about DL you're just a crazy Delta lover.
Different generation, different mindset.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 567 posts, RR: 3 Reply 151, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 801 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 150): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 149):
Yeah I don't get why these young folks on here are so angry about the DL/NW merger. They are really emotional about it and when someone has something positive to say about DL you're just a crazy Delta lover.
Different generation, different mindset.
I guess so but hey I'm only 29 and I don't act like that. I was hanging around ONT from the time I was 4 and I remember all of the "big" mergers of the 80's and how bad they went. This DL/NW merger just seems like such a cake walk compared to the many mergers of the 80's.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4276 posts, RR: 11 Reply 152, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 786 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 151): I guess so but hey I'm only 29 and I don't act like that. I was hanging around ONT from the time I was 4 and I remember all of the "big" mergers of the 80's and how bad they went. This DL/NW merger just seems like such a cake walk compared to the many mergers of the 80's.
Well, from my perspective as a Deltoid in SLC, I thought the DL/WA merger came off pretty well.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Dalfannyc From United States, joined Jun 2004, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 153, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 635 times:
Well, I must say, I am of this "different generation" and the DL/NW merger is one of the most exciting things I've seen in the U.S. airline world. Two large legacies forming the largest airline is no small potatoes. Even if I wasn't a DL fan, it would still be great.
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because of the messes with YX/F9 covering most the aviation time when they talk about it in the local news.
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So much for more hub choices
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