Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13919 times:
I find it odd that Delta has already removed the Northwest name from airport terminal signage etc, when Northwest still operates under its own operating certificate with NW flight numbers, as a unit of Delta.
At DFW airport, for instance, a passenger booked on a Northwest flight (with a NW flight number) will not see any mention of the name Northwest on the airport terminal listings. So if it happens to be someone who just happens not to know to look for Delta, he/she can get thoroughly confused driving around looking for the terminal Northwest operates out of!
I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
DALMD88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1980 posts, RR: 13 Reply 1, posted (4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13874 times:
Part of the problem is the change over has taken too long. They should have stopped selling NW branded tickets by now. All the flights should have a DL number and the NW signage should be pretty much gone from a customer viewpoint. Sure the single ops cert is months away still and the fleet is nowhere close to being painted, but the customer front end should have been very quick. For most mergers they go around throwing stickers over the old airline name in a matter of days. For us it looks like the approach is we will only rebrand with the total package. So the brand stays NW until we can change all the signage to look like a legacy DL station. Meanwhile we keep selling tickets under the NW brand.
Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2185 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13852 times:
If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them. Say next Friday I looked up a MSP-MKE roundtrip and found the same fare on both airlines. On the exact same flights.... Northwest, then on Delta "Operated by Northwest" for nonstop flights.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13728 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under
You miss my point. Regardless of whether you know about the merger or not, if you have a Northwest ticket with a Northwest flight number, it would be entirely reasonable to look for the terminal Northwest (and not Delta) operates out of!
And there are plenty of international travellers who may not follow US airline mergers that closely, and get confused my the lack of directions to Northwest at the airports.
Pilotboi From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2213 posts, RR: 9 Reply 4, posted (4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13726 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage!
Oh, so the rebranding process can continue long after the SOC and you and everyone else can complain that the NW image is still around but the airline doesn't exist anymore. Right. Let alone the passengers now see all this NW stuff but have DL tickets. Now we're back to square one.
Why wait for some legal documents that say you are one airline to actually start the re-branding process? They're just trying to get ahead of the game here. Besides, there is plenty of signage that indicates NW passengers can check in at DL. And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often).
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
You're right. They can't do anything right. Maybe you should step in and take charge.
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): So if it happens to be someone who just happens not to know to look for Delta, he/she can get thoroughly confused driving around looking for the terminal Northwest operates out of!
Answered very well here:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under.
Pilotboi From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2213 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13671 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 3): it would be entirely reasonable to look for the terminal Northwest (and not Delta) operates out of!
Actually I would find it not reasonable. But either way - at almost every airport, there is signage to indicate where to go for NW passengers.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 3): And there are plenty of international travellers who may not follow US airline mergers that closely, and get confused my the lack of directions to Northwest at the airports.
Come on, we all know that no one ever pays attention when driving around the airport. At least not here at MCO. 10,000 signs and they are rarely read.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13667 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): You're right. They can't do anything right. Maybe you should step in and take charge.
Wow... with such an aggressive and arrogant response to a perfectly legitimate questions, I sure hope you're not a pilot in real life -- how would you deal with routine questions without blowing your top?
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often).
If you get asked quite often, you make my point -- obviously people are getting confused!
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13648 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 5): Actually I would find it not reasonable. But either way - at almost every airport, there is signage to indicate where to go for NW passengers.
Not at the roadways and terminal maps at DFW, which I am sure would agree is a pretty major airport.
On DFW's list of airlines it doesn't even show NW. I'm sure the "uninformed" traveller is researching and finding out all they can before getting to the airport. If not, they should be... As said earlier, both airlines, most airport websites, and many other resources link to the NW/DL merger before you even arrive at the airport. I know airplanes, procedures and everything else quite well, but even when I travel I look at maps of terminals and other needed info before even leaving for the airport.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Nws2002 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13517 times:
Have you ever heard the saying Rome wasn't built in a day? That's the case here. There is no way to merge two airline operations without confusion. Overall things have actually gone smoothly so far.
As for not knowing about the NW-DL merger I think many on a.net would be surprised. I'm a CO employee and I get stopped in the airport all the time by NW pax who are confused and looking for their check-in. Sure there is signage, but I've been guilty myself of standing right under a sign and looking everywhere buy up (or across, or at the wall, etc.)
Atlwest1 From United States, joined Jan 2009, 332 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13414 times:
I cant tell you how when im at work in a concourse CLEARLY branded for my carrier that I get people looking for another carrier. Delta or any carrier for that matter could have cheerleaders and streaming banners and people will still be confused. When people travel it seems sometimes that outside the airport they are coherent smart productive members of society, in the airport they sky cap check there brains to there final destination. Its cute sometimes but sometimes all you can do is smile and nod
IAD51FL From United States, joined Dec 2006, 272 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13309 times:
Its just like codeshare flights.... if you are in SLC and have a Continental ticket, you may be actually flying on Delta.
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 12): cant tell you how when im at work in a concourse CLEARLY branded for my carrier that I get people looking for another carrier. Delta or any carrier for that matter could have cheerleaders and streaming banners and people will still be confused. When people travel it seems sometimes that outside the airport they are coherent smart productive members of society, in the airport they sky cap check there brains to there final destination. Its cute sometimes but sometimes all you can do is smile and nod
I had a guy stand in my line at IAD for 20 minutes looking at me, the other agent and the big sign behind me, and gets mad at me because he was flying B6 and WE made him wait in the wrong line.
People don't read signs, or notices on webpages or even pay attention to announcements. They just expect others to hold their hand and get them through life, and if they don't get the hand holding, they say they had a bad experience and complain. On a similar note, check out the movie Idiocracy, it shows what kind of world we may be living in soon.
Chris
Moved to IAH, living across from the approach end of 26R
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 11 Reply 13, posted (4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12944 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): Why wait for some legal documents that say you are one airline to actually start the re-branding process?
Well now, if you want to get both technical and accurate about it......UNTIL those legal documents state you are one airline, you are NOT one airline, are you?
Sorry, but the poster was entitled to ask a question he thought valid. However, if you're going to be rude and condescending in answering, then you should really make sure you're correct.
Revelation From United States, joined Feb 2005, 3937 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12884 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 15): Well now, if you want to get both technical and accurate about it......UNTIL those legal documents state you are one airline, you are NOT one airline, are you?
Sure, but as mentioned, things like codeshares and regionals flying for majors mean that quite often folks are buying tickets branded for airline X yet are flying airline Y. Thus there's no reason why Delta can't rebrand all their flights to Z regardless of whether NW or a regional is flying them.
Brand name != airline name, not any more at least.
Daleaholic From United Kingdom (England), joined Oct 2005, 2915 posts, RR: 18 Reply 15, posted (4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12768 times:
Quoting Chootie (Reply 10): Working at an airport has unfortunately given me the insight that approximately 70-80% of people travelling, have left their brain in a jar at home. Amazing that soooo many peolple do NOT inform themselves before leaving.
Correct!
Even if all the signs pointed passengers in the right direction, they still wouldn't have a f**king clue where to go! Passengers lose all common sense when they walk through the doors of an airport terminal.
Back on topic... Passengers should already know about the merger and be aware that their flight is being operated by Delta. It's a similar situation in the UK where Thomson took over First Choice. All branding has now changed and only some of the aircraft remain in First Choice colours, operating under Thomson flight numbers/codes.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
Josh32121 From United States, joined Apr 2008, 114 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12624 times:
If someone books a ticket on nwa.com, does the itinerary that's e-mailed to the passenger indicate that they may need to check in at a Delta kiosk/counter? If so, one could argue that they have been notified (although I know people rarely read everything in those e-mails).
Separately, I traveled with some coworkers a couple of months ago, and they experienced the opposite issue. One of them had booked a flight with a NW flight number but operated by DL out of LAX (which wasn't consolidated or rebranded at that time). I had to point out to him that he should come to T5 instead of T2 because he didn't realize he was on a DL-operated flight. There was no mention of it on the itinerary from our corporate travel agency.
NWAESC From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1870 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12131 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under.
I hear you, but you'd be surprised how many people don't know anything about this merger.
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often)
I get asked often too. No big deal. This also happens when they have a ticket "on Northwest," but see a plane in DL colors at the gate.
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 9): I'm sure the "uninformed" traveller is researching and finding out all they can before getting to the airport.
You're being sarcastic, right?
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 9): but even when I travel I look at maps of terminals and other needed info before even leaving for the airport.
Excellent idea... and one I'm sure never occurs to 95% of the traveling public...
Rscaife1682 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 221 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11787 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them. Say next Friday I looked up a MSP-MKE roundtrip and found the same fare on both airlines. On the exact same flights.... Northwest, then on Delta "Operated by Northwest" for nonstop flights.
Wow do you....Or have you ever worked for an airline
Jetblueguy22 From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 1044 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11611 times:
Well for one nobody should be confused because when you look at your itinerary it says check in with Delta Airlines. It says that on my itinerary out of BDL tomorrow and my return from LSE next weekend. I guarantee it says that on every itinerary issued for a station with new signage.
Blue
IMissPiedmont From United States, joined May 2001, 5579 posts, RR: 55 Reply 20, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11584 times:
Perhaps not relevant to the original question but back in the 1980s the old airline name was removed from everything the day after, or in a few cases the day of the merger approval.
Though my eyes could see I still was a blind man, though my mind could think I still was a madman
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11399 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I find it odd that Delta has already removed the Northwest name from airport terminal signage etc, when Northwest still operates under its own operating certificate with NW flight numbers, as a unit of Delta.
At DFW airport, for instance, a passenger booked on a Northwest flight (with a NW flight number) will not see any mention of the name Northwest on the airport terminal listings. So if it happens to be someone who just happens not to know to look for Delta, he/she can get thoroughly confused driving around looking for the terminal Northwest operates out of!
I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
Well you could look at it this way, NW is now a PART OF DELTA. They are much like that of SkyWest, ASA, Comair, etc. When you buy a ticket on Delta and one leg of your trip is on a regional jet/prop, the ticket only says Delta on it but it also adds "Operated by XXX". Now under your thought, and it is a reasonable question, but if Detla were to have waited longer to change the signage there would still be considerable confusion down the road as at SOME POINT they would have to change from NW to DL. So I actually give Delta credit, where you don't, and believe they did a great job in jumping on top of this issue so as to minimize the confusion when the merger is officially completed. Why wait until the planes all say Delta on them and for them to be operating under one certificate, which passengers DON'T ever really know, to change the airport signage??? Delta is being VERY proactive on this front.
On kind of a side note however I actually thought it was taking quite a while for them to make a switch in that there ARE still many NW painted aircraft and that there is still some separation of the two. I remember when AA bought AirCal, they disappeared nearly overnight with the ticket counters being changed, GSE being decaled and repainted AA and even the titles on the planes themselves came off quite fast and the small black American titles were applied. Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11369 times:
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 22): Perhaps not relevant to the original question but back in the 1980s the old airline name was removed from everything the day after, or in a few cases the day of the merger approval.
Very much agreed, I was actually thinking the opposite of the OP and I was surprised at how long this is actually taking.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11333 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 7): Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 5):
Actually I would find it not reasonable. But either way - at almost every airport, there is signage to indicate where to go for NW passengers.
Not at the roadways and terminal maps at DFW, which I am sure would agree is a pretty major airport.
Yes DFW is a major airport but think of this in terms of DL and NW, it is NOT A MAJOR airport for either of them.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11292 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 23): On kind of a side note however I actually thought it was taking quite a while for them to make a switch in that there ARE still many NW painted aircraft and that there is still some separation of the two. I remember when AA bought AirCal, they disappeared nearly overnight with the ticket counters being changed, GSE being decaled and repainted AA and even the titles on the planes themselves came off quite fast and the small black American titles were applied. Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
Considering the size of the fleets they're dealing with, I think they're doing a pretty good job. Remember, much of the original DL fleet has to be repainted, also as whey were still flying around in the Wavy Gravy livery. As far as AA rebranding AirCal, how many a/c did AirCal have in their fleet that needed repainting, anyway?
You may still see some NW aircraft with stickers on them if they haven't yet been repainted by the time the SOC goes into effect.
I also think they've done a good job with the signage, no matter what the OP might say. He's not stating that this is actually occuring, just that it is possible. Remember, much of the signage OUTSIDE of the terminal, in terms of directions, etc. is the responsibility of the airport authority and not the individual airlines, so, DL can hardly be faulted if the airport hasn't updated that, yet.
DL is doing everything they can to inform the passengers, whether it's e-mails, stating it on the tickets, etc. DL cannot be held responsible if the passengers either don't read or pay attention to what is happening.
BTW, foreign passengers might have the same problems, anyway, regardless of the DL/NW merger and signage changes.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
MCOatc From United States, joined Mar 2009, 56 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11265 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 5): Come on, we all know that no one ever pays attention when driving around the airport. At least not here at MCO. 10,000 signs and they are rarely read.
And when they do, they have to stop in the middle of the road to do so, only to then cut across 4 lanes of traffic.
On a more relevant note, I am a bit surprised that the NW website does not include a bit more DL branding to indicate the common company. I know quite a few intelligent people who do quite a bit of traveling both domestic and international who I doubt would know about the merger.
Otherwise, DL has done a pretty good job with this integration. Like others, I am surprised the NW titles haven't had decals placed over them on the aircraft.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 26, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11405 times:
Quoting MCOatc (Reply 27): Otherwise, DL has done a pretty good job with this integration. Like others, I am surprised the NW titles haven't had decals placed over them on the aircraft.
I think that maybe they'd just as soon get as many painted as they can, to save time later. At some point, they might put stickers on, but only if necessary. When it came to Western's fleet, they stickered EVERYTHING and then went on a painting binge, later. There were a couple of 737-200s that were delivered to WA in DL colors from the factory, though.
Also, to actually answer the original question of the OP, I think DL is trying to get ahead of the game as far as rebranding and ahead of the SOC. No use sitting around, doing absolutely nothing when they could be accomplishing quite a bit.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 27, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11379 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 26): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 23):
On kind of a side note however I actually thought it was taking quite a while for them to make a switch in that there ARE still many NW painted aircraft and that there is still some separation of the two. I remember when AA bought AirCal, they disappeared nearly overnight with the ticket counters being changed, GSE being decaled and repainted AA and even the titles on the planes themselves came off quite fast and the small black American titles were applied. Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
Considering the size of the fleets they're dealing with, I think they're doing a pretty good job. Remember, much of the original DL fleet has to be repainted, also as whey were still flying around in the Wavy Gravy livery. As far as AA rebranding AirCal, how many a/c did AirCal have in their fleet that needed repainting, anyway?
You may still see some NW aircraft with stickers on them if they haven't yet been repainted by the time the SOC goes into effect.
Very true, the OC fleet was much smaller but I was just trying to drive home the point that it has before been done much quicker. I actually think DL is doing a great job so as to be near completion by the time they are under one operating certificate. The only other comparison that could possibly be brought up however is the HP/US merger. They really jumped on top of getting rid of the America West name even though that was the airline taking over.
Luckyone From United States, joined Aug 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11355 times:
Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 18): If someone books a ticket on nwa.com, does the itinerary that's e-mailed to the passenger indicate that they may need to check in at a Delta kiosk/counter?
Yes it does. I booked a flight through Northwest that involves flights on KLM Malev and Delta, and it explicity states check with KLM, check in with Delta.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 30, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11303 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 29): Very true, the OC fleet was much smaller but I was just trying to drive home the point that it has before been done much quicker.
Well, like I said before, I'm sure it could be done quicker if they wanted to go the "sticker" route, but I really think they'd rather paint as much as they possibly can, while they can, to save from doing it later. Stickers or not, they'll all have to be done, eventually....why not do it now?
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Flyabunch From United States, joined Nov 2004, 494 posts, RR: 6 Reply 31, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11206 times:
If I remember correctly, When America West and US Air merged the signage was changed pretty quickly. All plane repaints from that point on got the new scheme. And, they took two years to go to one operating certificate!
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 32, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11152 times:
Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 33): If I remember correctly, When America West and US Air merged the signage was changed pretty quickly. All plane repaints from that point on got the new scheme. And, they took two years to go to one operating certificate!
IIRC, when DL did the changeover from PA, in many cities, it was done overnight and even the A-310s were painted pretty quickly. Our first flight from JFK to TLV had a bumper sticker on it (you could still see the blue lettering and the meatball under the white paint), but the second flight, a couple of days later, was completely painted in the DL livery.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11051 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site.
Not everybody cares as much as anetters do. the merger FAQ link isn't so big; if you use orbitz or something you might not even see that; i don't know.
Do Anetters know all about M&A in other industries, like pharmaceuticals, automotive, retail, and so on? Yet they now and then buy things from these industries.
if you buy a NW ticket with a NW flight number, I don't fault somebody for looking for a NW counter.
It isn't the fact that its big on DL's site, its that its a very contrasting green color that immediately catches the eye on their site. Honestly, NW needs it more than DL needs it. Still the fact is, people who fly NW or buy NW tickets should know by now, and if not, we'll let them be confused...
The only people I'd give an exception to are the people in MKE and DEN because of the messes with YX/F9 covering most the aviation time when they talk about it in the local news.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Widget1580 From United States, joined Jul 2004, 294 posts, RR: 25 Reply 35, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10966 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
the backdrops at DL ticket counters now say "also serving nwa" at the rebranded stations. people just need to take a second and read them and 99% of the confused people would no longer be confused.
LH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 61 Reply 36, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10870 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under. Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them. Say next Friday I looked up a MSP-MKE roundtrip and found the same fare on both airlines. On the exact same flights.... Northwest, then on Delta "Operated by Northwest" for nonstop flights.
Yes but you're giving the general population the benefit of the doubt that they have the ability to read, much less understand the "complexities" of code-sharing and such. Trust me, you could put it in 25-font, bold, red letters saying "OPERATED BY XYZ AIRLINES" and they'll still go the airline with the logo on the print out.
LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 37, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10759 times:
Quoting LH423 (Reply 38): Trust me, you could put it in 25-font, bold, red letters saying "OPERATED BY XYZ AIRLINES" and they'll still go the airline with the logo on the print out
I sometimes buy tickets that say "operated by Shuttle America" or "Mesaba" or "Gojet". does that mean I should go looking for those ticket counters at the airport?
Let's not get holier-than-thou, just because we follow this particular industry, and know how it all works, at least from the pax point-of-view.
When you buy some product or software, do you read the entire licence agreement? Do read the installation instructions or manual? Or do you just open the box and use the thing?
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4150 posts, RR: 56 Reply 38, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10715 times:
I am trying to remember how AA/TWA did it, they also changed their signage overnight too, however when that change happened was it when the SOC was one?
As they had been flying separately since the announcement when AA bought TWA, and they put stickers and re painted hybrid schemes (that'd be cool to see on some NW planes!) until everything became one.
I haven't flown out of the A concourse in awhile at STL so I am unable to see how the DL/NW process is going, however the DL and NW ticket counters remain separate in the main terminal.
All in All I'd say DL is progressing fast but it does seem like they could be going faster.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 39, posted (4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10072 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 40): All in All I'd say DL is progressing fast but it does seem like they could be going faster.
Well 80%+ of the stations are re-branded and over 30% of the NW fleet is repainted....what more do you want? Remember, there is STILL an airline operation to run at the same time. Part of DL's fleet is in the process of being repainted, also. I think they're making very good progress, considering all that has to be done.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4150 posts, RR: 56 Reply 40, posted (4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9945 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 40):
Well 80%+ of the stations are re-branded and over 30% of the NW fleet is repainted....what more do you want? Remember, there is STILL an airline operation to run at the same time. Part of DL's fleet is in the process of being repainted, also. I think they're making very good progress, considering all that has to be done.
Hey, don't shoot me I didn't start it up and complain!
I agreed it was going very fast, be nice if it went faster, but I don't expect it!
STL is still one of those 20% unchanged haha
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
PI4EVER From United States, joined May 2009, 85 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9525 times:
Tharanga said it best. Don't be so holier-than-thou or jaded when an observation is made from a passengers perspective who simply doesn't live and breathe this industry. A case in point to illustrate what might be conceived as a "stupid passenger question" relating to the merger.
I helped my sister-in-law plan a trip for her 86 year old grandmother. My sister-in-law is a bright young woman who teaches at university level. We routinely don't talk airlines or travel, or certainly mergers, nor her profession of nursing. Yes, we do share "dumb passenger" or "dumb patient" stories for a laugh occasionally.
So, on to Grandma. Booked on NW to MEM using nwa.com. Nonstop flight for her convenience due to wheelchair need. My sis accompanied her Grandma to the gate in the wheelchair (thanks for the courtesy pass NW), but called me to let me know Grandma was flying on a DL plane. One of the first DC-9-50's painted in April. First question. "Why is she flying on Delta?" Explained. "Do you have to go to a different gate or terminal to meet her?" Explained and reassured I'd meet Grandma.
A dumb question from my sister The Doctor?
Don't ever become so jaded in dealing with customers that you forget what YOU DIDN'T KNOW on your first day of employment!
Good luck to all of you DL and NW folks on your successful merger. I have been there twice, and it can be both a frustrating and exciting time when anxiety seems to rule the day. As good ole Grandma said many times "This too shall pass".
Thomas
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 42, posted (4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9230 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
Lets use your idea for a minute and see which is more "thought through". If DL was to wait until the day that the SOC goes into effect, then you would have all the flights with DL flight numbers on them, but half would be painted in NW colors. How confusing would that be as well as the branding in the terminal? Instead of doing it the way they are and not having to rush about and get it done, they would have to a rush job, to get it completed.
Much better to do it the way they are instead of waiting. I think they've learned which way works best after the NE/WA mergers and PA acquisition. You'd be surprised at how many details there are to be worked out, even at the station level before a changeover. Better to have thought of these ahead of time, as well as ALL re-branding, than to wait until the last minute to get it done.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 999 posts, RR: 2 Reply 44, posted (4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8773 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 21): Heck even the DL/WA merger seemed to have the planes with smaller Delta decals and the Western titles removed off of the fleet quite fast.
The sheer difference in fleet size could leigitmize why Western had the titles changed so quickly, and now why NWA's rebranding will take longer.
We were luckier up here in Canada... when PWA/CP Air merged, titles were changed rather quickly, although the fleet was a few years. Operating as Canadi>n, the takeover of Wardair was quick, also.
When Air Canada finally took over struggling Canadi>n, there was so much media saturation, that the attitude for most Canadians was "shut up, we get it already". I guess that its easier to grasp when you had only two majors in the country....
JohnMKE From United States, joined Jun 2009, 24 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8661 times:
I'm sure that there are plenty of airport employees around every airport there to answer questions to help direct the passengers that do not utilize the internet.
Some might find this related to the topic. I saw a AmericaWest, painted with logo, bagcart last week being used for cargo and they marged almost 2 years ago.
WESTERN737800 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 1 Reply 46, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8606 times:
Quoting Nws2002 (Reply 10): Have you ever heard the saying Rome wasn't built in a day? That's the case here. There is no way to merge two airline operations without confusion. Overall things have actually gone smoothly so far.
Well said especially when you consider this is the biggest merger in U.S. airline history.
[quote=Atlwest1,reply=11]When people travel it seems sometimes that outside the airport they are coherent smart productive members of society, in the airport they sky cap check there brains to there final destination. Its cute sometimes but sometimes all you can do is smile and nod
Same here, its amazing what people just forget when they get to the airport. I work at an FBO, a lot of the phone calls we get are people looking for the phone numbers for the airlines. Glad I don't have to put up with the stuff that you do.
I think DL is going about it the right way. Get as much rebranding done before the SOC comes into effect. Someone said 80% of the stations have been rebranded. I read somewhere that 35% of the NW fleet has been repainted. That is good progress. There is always going to be some confusion, better to get some of it out of the way before the SOC so as to minimize the chaos the night before, day after the SOC. Good job by DL.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 47, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8516 times:
Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 45): Some might find this related to the topic. I saw a AmericaWest, painted with logo, bagcart last week being used for cargo and they marged almost 2 years ago.
Actually US Aiways and America West merged I believe in early 2005 or late 2004 making it almost 5 years ago but yes they did manage to make sweeping changes and got rid of the America West name pretty quick.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8488 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 33): if you buy a NW ticket with a NW flight number, I don't fault somebody for looking for a NW counter.
Bingo. That is precisely my point. We are not talking about NW xxx Operated by Delta or Delta xxx Operated by NWA. We are talking about NW xxx operated by NWA! These are still two separate airlines in terms of operating certificates and flight numbers, though under common ownership.
And I am not even questioning the logo or signage at the counters, I am referring to potential confusion even before they get to the terminal and counters, when they see no signs on the roadway markings for Northwest anymore, but they are holding a NW ticket with a NW flight number.
Think also from the point of view of someone going to the airport to receive someone. The passenger says 'I am arriving on NW xxx from MSP". The person goes to the airport and sees no signs for NWA, and unless he knows he should be looking for Delta and NWA signage has been removed, he will be confused.
All I am saying is while Delta/NWA continues to sell and operate tickets and flights under the NWA name and code (which it does), it probably confuses quite a few people to see no mention of NWA anywhere in the airport roadways or terminals. Perhaps having intermim roadway and terminal signage saying "Delta/Northwest" might have been a good middle-ground.
C767P From United States, joined Oct 2008, 322 posts, RR: 1 Reply 49, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8260 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 48): And I am not even questioning the logo or signage at the counters, I am referring to potential confusion even before they get to the terminal and counters, when they see no signs on the roadway markings for Northwest anymore, but they are holding a NW ticket with a NW flight number.
I know there are at least some airports that still have “Northwest” up on roadways around the terminal even though the rebranding is complete at that airport.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8219 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 3): You miss my point. Regardless of whether you know about the merger or not, if you have a Northwest ticket with a Northwest flight number, it would be entirely reasonable to look for the terminal Northwest (and not Delta) operates out of!
And there are plenty of international travellers who may not follow US airline mergers that closely, and get confused my the lack of directions to Northwest at the airports.
The change over should not be a problem as whom ever sold you the ticket should have known about the merge and let you know. IMO we all knew about it last year and before with all the rumours that were floating around here. Even though you may not be able to find NW you should have enough common sense to ask someone who would be able to direct you to the appropriate location. Most international airports would have some knowledge of the merger as well and it would be up to the individual station to provide the information that you are seeking.
Having low expectations means you won't be disapointed.
CFBFrame From United States, joined May 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8067 times:
I find the attitude from airline employees interesting considering the OP is a buying customer. Here we have a customer who is complaining and we end up reading about airline employees complaining about their customers. Now I understand why the industry is in so much trouble.
Many customers are afraid to fly, and they come to the airport nervous about the entire process. Some get overwhelmed at the site of all the people and are unable to focus. Some can't read, while some have eye problems. Others are just plain stupid and are always lost. But in the end they are all customers and no matter what condition they're in they should be respected and helped. Don't like it get out of the business, don't kick the folks who paid their hard earned money to fly your crappy airline!!!!
Wouldn't it be interesting if an airline accepted that responsibility and took your customers away from you hothead airline employees? Just reading the comments here tells me business would be booming for the respectful airline. With all of those stupid customers gone there would be plenty opportunity to complain to yourselves about how your worthless customer service has resulted in you standing in empty terminals. Get over yourselves, and respect the fact you have a customer facing job and your paycheck should be respected.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7958 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 37): Do read the installation instructions or manual? Or do you just open the box and use the thing?
When it comes to computers or electronic equipment, not only do I read the instructions but I usually end up calling the damn company and have to talk to 5 different people with foreign accents before I end up calling and paying for a tech to come and show me how to work the bloody thing after he takes about 10 seconds to hook up the hardware or download the software and already have the stupid thing working.
Having low expectations means you won't be disapointed.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7735 times:
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 52): have to talk to 5 different people with foreign accents
Foreign as in a non-Canadian accent? Or a non-French Canadian accent? Being such a small part of the world's population, Canadians must have to deal a lot with foreign accents when doing business in today's world, isn't it? So why raise the accent issue here? Does it have any relevance to the topic at hand?
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7702 times:
Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 51): I find the attitude from airline employees interesting considering the OP is a buying customer. Here we have a customer who is complaining and we end up reading about airline employees complaining about their customers. Now I understand why the industry is in so much trouble.
Well said! I too am amazed at the hostile response to a geniune question -- I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
I guess the problem with airlines in many parts of the world has always been they tend to be operationally focused, and not customer focused. No where better demonstrated than on this thread.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 55, posted (4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7279 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 54): Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 51):
I find the attitude from airline employees interesting considering the OP is a buying customer. Here we have a customer who is complaining and we end up reading about airline employees complaining about their customers. Now I understand why the industry is in so much trouble.
Well said! I too am amazed at the hostile response to a geniune question -- I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
I guess the problem with airlines in many parts of the world has always been they tend to be operationally focused, and not customer focused. No where better demonstrated than on this thread.
Well I would have to say that you seem to be too focused on why the signage outside of the Terminal at DFW would have the NW name removed. You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
A quick side note however, you seem to be really sensitive to what people respond back with, you asked the question and they answered it, a couple however may have been slightly hostile but that's about all. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7064 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 55): Well I would have to say that you seem to be too focused on why the signage outside of the Terminal at DFW would have the NW name removed. You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
I would wager that the airport does it based on direction from the airlines, and that DFW is not the only airport where the NWA name has been removed from airport roadway signage.
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 58, posted (4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7004 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 56): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 55):
Well I would have to say that you seem to be too focused on why the signage outside of the Terminal at DFW would have the NW name removed. You know that is probably the resposibility of the Airport and not DL itself.
I would wager that the airport does it based on direction from the airlines, and that DFW is not the only airport where the NWA name has been removed from airport roadway signage.
Ok, then I guess I don't really understand what has you so flustered. It really seems like a moot point then I guess. Do you just really not like Delta??? If that is so then you should just say that and get this over with. This is getting kind of ridiculous.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 54): I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
...Really???
Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter): I think it would have been much more prudent for Delta to have waited for the NW code to actually disappear before removing the signage! Surprised they do not seem to have thought this through very well!
That sounds like complaining to me. So what signage are you really asking about?? The ticket counters, the gate check in, the sign on the front of the terminal or the signs on the roads going around the terminal???
Delta can inform the airport that they have purchased NW and that the NW names will eventually have to come off the "AIRPORT" signs and only Delta signs would remain. Delta CANNOT CHANGE THOSE SIGNS, that is the job of the DFW Authority.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 59, posted (4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6997 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 54): Well said! I too am amazed at the hostile response to a geniune question -- I am not even really complaining, I was just making an observation based on a recent NWA flight out of DFW.
I guess the problem with airlines in many parts of the world has always been they tend to be operationally focused, and not customer focused. No where better demonstrated than on this thread.
There were many legitimate answers on here. Not all were hostile but you didn't seem to read them or the well thought out responses.
Again, as far as OUTSIDE signage at the airport, that is the AIRPORT's responsibility, not the airline's. I'm sure the airline can pressure them to get it done, but that's about all.
Then again, you made the observation at ONE airport. While it's a legitimate problem for you (and well founded), I don't think that one observation is enough for DL to change their entire re-branding and re-painting program at this point. Again, it's better for them to do it, now, than wait and have to rush to do it later. Be patient.......it should be entirely done by the end of the year......at that point, about all you have left to see are the a/c that haven't been painted, yet and even those will probably have DL stickers on them.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, all the flights are either NW, operated by DL or DL, operated by NW. I really don't think there are any NW, operated by NW, left.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6833 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 59): Also, if I'm not mistaken, all the flights are either NW, operated by DL or DL, operated by NW. I really don't think there are any NW, operated by NW, left.
That's the whole point -- a large number of NWA-operated flights are still NW, operated by NW (NWA flight number, NWA aircraft).
777Daedalus From Brazil, joined Oct 2005, 22 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6833 times:
This is only my personal opinion (and no offense to any NW fans) but the NW marque in many ways represents an old, tired, groaning brand associated with a dated "regional" name (gone defunct the same way Western, Eastern, America West, Piedmont, Ozark Airlines have gone etc.) unexciting middle-western rust-belt hubs (DTW, MSP) and un-dynamic, un-sexy (although I am sure safe) DC-9's. Its brand appeal is similar to General Motors. In my mind, the faster they get rid of the ballast associated with this failed brand the better. In contrast DL's image is much more dynamic, representing a growing company headquartered in the American New South but with a fierce global reach into Europe, Latin American, Asia and Africa. While this may not have been DL's reason for removing NW signage, doing so promotes a much more cutting edge, expanding and forward looking enterprise. Now if they can just get the new livery printed on more of their aeroplanes!
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6835 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 58): Do you just really not like Delta??? If that is so then you should just say that and get this over with. This is getting kind of ridiculous.
Huh? Where did I say that? I just flew DL/NWA to Hawaii and back on the Upper Deck of a 744, and loved it. So this has nothing to do with my liking or not liking Delta.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6750 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 57): was at LAX last weekend, and Northwest signs were clearly visible, just at Terminal 5 instead of their former location at Terminal 2.
The signs hanging from the overhang by the passenger pick-up/drop-off area at Terminal 5 (like at all the terminals) said:
Delta | Northwest
IMHO, that's exactly the way it should be until they get rid of NW flight numbers and complete the merger under a single name and operating certificate.
However I believe there are several airports that are doing it the way I see it at DFW, and it is certainly something Delta can correct with the airport authorities if they want to.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 64, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6747 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 60): That's the whole point -- a large number of NWA-operated flights are still NW, operated by NW (NWA flight number, NWA aircraft).
I don't think there's as many left as you think, especially based on an observation at just DFW. Having said that, I will ask you this again.......What would you have DL do??? Just stop everything now and wait or continue on and do the "prudent" thing and finish the job? I just don't understand what the big deal is. I'm sure there's not as much confusion as you let on or we'd sure hear much more of it, here on a.net. Any confusion that does result, I'm sure DL is relying on the employees to take care of it, as they would any problem such as that.
Just as an FYI, here's the status of re-branding at DFW........per Widgetheads.net
"Together and Rebranded/ NW moved to DL gates. Combined uses E11-E16, with E11 shared with AS. Completed 4/7
Seems the only real problem is outside the terminal.
[Edited 2009-07-10 15:55:42]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
Nwaesc From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1870 posts, RR: 2 Reply 65, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6712 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 64): I don't think there's as many left as you think, especially based on an observation at just DFW.
Actually, depending on how fine a point you want to put on it, almost all of the NW flights, are still "NW flights" per se.
The only exceptions would be some of the East coast flying that's been taken over from DL (ie. BDL-Florida), and the few Int'l examples out of ATL, JFK, etc.
...And for the love of God; please nobody chime in about how DL now owns NW. I figured that was already assumed; I'm just talking about "regular" flights day in/day out.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 66, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6628 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 63): IMHO, that's exactly the way it should be until they get rid of NW flight numbers and complete the merger under a single name and operating certificate.
I realize that's your opinion, which you are entitled to, but I'm confused about the reasoning. Is it just so a few customers won't initially be confused by this merger or what?
And maybe DL has told DFW to change the signs.......but, nothing happens quickly when you're dealing with a gov't. body, does it?
I just think that DL is going about it exactly the way they should.....the sooner everything is re-branded, the sooner customers will be familiar with what's going on.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
EXMEMWIDGET From United States, joined Jan 2004, 153 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6612 times:
I guess there are no hybrid aircraft paint jobs as the result of the DL/NW merger or at least I haven't seen one. I sure remember all of those garish paint jobs on the ex RC planes after NW and RC merged. Yuk!!
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 68, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6598 times:
Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 67): I guess there are no hybrid aircraft paint jobs as the result of the DL/NW merger or at least I haven't seen one. I sure remember all of those garish paint jobs on the ex RC planes after NW and RC merged. Yuk!!
I don't think you'll seen any hybrids, except maybe for some stickered aircraft.
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 70, posted (4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6461 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 64): Having said that, I will ask you this again.......What would you have DL do???
I think this would be important in finding out what he feels should be done instead of what they are doing now.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 62): Quoting FX1816 (Reply 58):
Do you just really not like Delta??? If that is so then you should just say that and get this over with. This is getting kind of ridiculous.
Huh? Where did I say that? I just flew DL/NWA to Hawaii and back on the Upper Deck of a 744, and loved it. So this has nothing to do with my liking or not liking Delta.
Umm, I never said that you said that, I'm just asking and how would I have known that you flew on a DL 744 to HNL??? But I do like how you missed the rest of my post and what others such as Mayor have put up.......WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD??? If it is just the signage out front then as I said before.....
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 58): Delta CANNOT CHANGE THOSE SIGNS, that is the job of the DFW Authority.
Argonaut From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Dec 2004, 327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 71, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6082 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 48): I am referring to potential confusion even before they get to the terminal and counters, when they see no signs on the roadway markings for Northwest anymore
Quoting Mayor (Reply 24): Remember, much of the signage OUTSIDE of the terminal, in terms of directions, etc. is the responsibility of the airport authority
Quoting Commavia (Reply 57): The signs hanging from the overhang by the passenger pick-up/drop-off area at Terminal 5 (like at all the terminals) said Delta | Northwest
Same thing at BWI when I drove there earlier today: "Delta/Northwest", with the DL/Citgo widget. Presumably an interim move, but full marks to the airport authority for helpfulness.
Quoting MCOatc (Reply 25): I am a bit surprised that the NW website does not include a bit more DL branding to indicate the common company.
Agreed. Seems an obvious thing to do; curious that they haven't.
Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 51): the end they are all customers and no matter what condition they're in they should be respected and helped
Absolutely!
We in this forum know the airline world well, but most customers probably don't, or have misconceptions about it, and (as another poster pointed out) are frequently anxious about what to them is a complex and often mystifying process.
Knowing & understanding your customers surely makes good business sense, doesn't it? See things from their point of view. Don't blame them for their lack of savvy! Anticipate their needs, no matter how daft they might seem to you, and in a heartbeat they'll be relieved and happy. Help them avoid things that could give them trouble (the matter under discussion is certainly one, and a very predictable one at that). Help them, serve them, respect them. Why let such easily-corrected problems turn a potentially satisfied customer into a frustrated one?
Hey, they might just respond by giving you their future business.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6036 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 70): WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD??? If it is just the signage out front then as I said before.....
And as I said before, Delta can absolutely work with the airport authorities on the road signage. The airport basically (and within reason) put on thoses signs what the airlines want them to. Remember the days on Northwest/KLM signage? You think the airports all around the world independently came up with that? But you refuse to accept that the airlines have a key input in the airport roadway signage.
The more you, Mayor, etc debate this, the more clear it becomes that some, if not most, airline employees just do not know how to take input or feedback from customers, without attacking them or doubting their motives.
AndrewUber From United States, joined Jul 2003, 2398 posts, RR: 52 Reply 73, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5979 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): If people still haven't heard of this merger and the implications of their tickets on NW/DL... I'd love to know under which Afghani rock they've been living under.
Quite an arrogant statement - not all airline passengers are lurkers here on Airliners.net.
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 2): Both airline websites have a "Northwest-Delta Merger FAQ's" link at the top of the site. The tickets being sold also have "Operated by" on them.
You are aware that the general public can obtain airline tickets on other sources right? There are websites out there (Orbitz, Expedia, TravelZoo, etc) who sell tickets that are still branded as "Northwest" and "Delta".
FX1816 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 518 posts, RR: 3 Reply 75, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5902 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 72): And as I said before, Delta can absolutely work with the airport authorities on the road signage. The airport basically (and within reason) put on thoses signs what the airlines want them to. Remember the days on Northwest/KLM signage? You think the airports all around the world independently came up with that? But you refuse to accept that the airlines have a key input in the airport roadway signage.
The more you, Mayor, etc debate this, the more clear it becomes that some, if not most, airline employees just do not know how to take input or feedback from customers, without attacking them or doubting their motives.
I'm not going to go on with this silly debate anymore. But if you would take the time to look at my profile I DON'T WORK FOR THE AIRLINES!!!!!! Can I ask though where Mayor or myself have attacked you or doubted your motive ALL WE TRIED TO DO IS EXPLAIN WHY DL MAY BE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING. As I have said before I AM NOT AN AIRLINE EMPLOYEE AND I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT DL OR ANY OTHER AIRLINE DOES.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5696 times:
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 75): Can I ask though where Mayor or myself have attacked you or doubted your motive ALL WE TRIED TO DO IS EXPLAIN WHY DL MAY BE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING
Perhaps when you suggested to me out of the blue that I should just admit that "I just really dont like Delta" and get over with it? These kinds of emotional comments dont usually come from people not closely connected (and usually employed by, or is close to someone employed by) the said company.
Edited to add: I see you work for Air Traffic Control. So while not an airline employee, it does make you part of the same industry, which explains why you seem to see things as "us vs them" where the customers are the "them".
Mayor also refers to the Widgethead magazine, which to me sounds like an internal Delta magazine, which would not typically be available to non-employees.
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7292 posts, RR: 16 Reply 77, posted (4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5572 times:
I'd say the reason why the Northwest name is disappearing is that it's a conscious decision by Delta to try and get rid of the NW name as quickly as possible - the quicker they appear as one unified brand, the better off (or so goes the thinking in pretty much any marketing environment out there).
The small stickers there showing "Now Serving NWA" are enough to drive away confusion inside the terminal, but still make it clear that the new airline is Delta (which is what marketing wants) - in the minds of most marketing folks, the less NW recognition and the more DL, the better.
As for airline codes, it's the joys of res systems. When you've got one airline (DL) on a vintage early-1960s res platform, another airline on a vintage late-1960s res platform, it's the year 2009, and you're trying to combine the two together, it's a major task. It's not as simple as having all flights just pop up as a DL codeshare in the NW res platform.
There's a huge difference in comparing Northwest/KLM on road signs and Delta/Northwest. If the airlines are at completely separate counters (as they are at LAX, even though both airlines are at T5), it makes sense for Delta to do so. If they're at the same counter (which is most of the stations in the network), DL wants those customers to get used to the DL name/branding (again, see my above point). With Northwest/KLM, it was about joint marketing - they were still two separate companies - this is not the case of Delta/Northwest.
Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2185 posts, RR: 7 Reply 78, posted (4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5474 times:
Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 73): Quite an arrogant statement - not all airline passengers are lurkers here on Airliners.net.
You don't need to be a lurker on A.net to know these two airlines are merging. If people are too oblivious to even watch the news on an occasional basis.... WOW.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Kevin752 From United States, joined Jul 2003, 679 posts, RR: 7 Reply 79, posted (4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5441 times:
Pax have been notified about where to check in. Also as part of the merger signage needs to be chaged as quick as possible. We at Delta are tryig trying to make the merger very smooth. I think that DL has done a great job. NW at SNA where I work is no longer posted at the gate and when the flights are annouced NW is not mentioned as part of the merger. At the airport we are also exposing the NW pax to the Delta branding and mentioning the Breezeway and Skymiles program.
USPIT10L From United States, joined Mar 2006, 2573 posts, RR: 9 Reply 80, posted (4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5356 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 76): Mayor also refers to the Widgethead magazine, which to me sounds like an internal Delta magazine, which would not typically be available to non-employees.
Actually, Widgetheads is not internal at DL at all. It is run by a A.net memeber to keep fans of the airline informed about the merger/integration without using the internal DL or NW systems.
Tsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 81, posted (4 months 3 days ago) and read 5281 times:
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4): And if they really need help - I'm sure they'll ask any airport employee (believe me - I get asked quite often).
Ain't that the truth. Just the other day in Terminal 2 a lady asked me where NW was and she was standing right in front of it! All she had to do was look lol
DeltAirlines From United States, joined May 1999, 7292 posts, RR: 16 Reply 82, posted (4 months 3 days ago) and read 5255 times:
Quoting Kevin752 (Reply 79): At the airport we are also exposing the NW pax to the Delta branding and mentioning the Breezeway and Skymiles program.
Breezeway should be mentioned - it's SOP across the system now. Big thing is making sure it's executed properly. which is something that is hit or miss and I know the powers that be in Atlanta are working on making sure rogue stations fall in line.
At this point, SkyMiles and WorldPerks are two different programs, and it probably isn't a good idea to only refer people to SkyMiles for the time being. While 95% of the FFP is aligned, and to most non-elites it's not a big deal, there are still quite a few differences - there are certain airline partners that can only be used with NW (MH, Jet, Kingfisher) or DL (Avianca, Singapore). Also different variations on upgrades (on NW metal, officially only NW Plats/Golds are eligible for upgrades on award tickets - the official line is DL Plats/Golds are not eligible on NW metal; companion upgrade rules are also different (a Plat companion is treated as equal to the Plat on NW metal; on DL metal the Plat and the companion are both lower than a Silver on their own); on NW metal, elites and companions get bag waivers, on DL metal it's only the elite, etc.
Until October when SkyMiles becomes the only program, there are still substantial differences between WorldPerks and SkyMiles and those will remain until the combination of programs. Even there, after October it will be One FFP, Two Airlines with different rules if someone is on NW metal or DL metal.
Mayor From United States, joined Mar 2008, 4090 posts, RR: 11 Reply 83, posted (4 months 3 days ago) and read 5069 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 72): The more you, Mayor, etc debate this, the more clear it becomes that some, if not most, airline employees just do not know how to take input or feedback from customers, without attacking them or doubting their motives.
Apparently, you don't pay attention to ALL of what we say, just the parts that you don't like.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 59): Then again, you made the observation at ONE airport. While it's a legitimate problem for you (and well founded), I don't think that one observation is enough for DL to change their entire re-branding and re-painting program at this point. Again, it's better for them to do it, now, than wait and have to rush to do it later. Be patient.......it should be entirely done by the end of the year......at that point, about all you have left to see are the a/c that haven't been painted, yet and even those will probably have DL stickers on them.
I wrote this on reply 59. I don't see where it's not taking input from passengers (which, quite frankly, I don't have to do, anymore as I'm retired). All I was doing, if you'd care to read it, was explain why I thought DL was doing it the way they were, one of several times I've stated the same thing. While I understand your concerns, unfortunately, I don't think they warrant changing around the complete re-branding and re-painting schedule to accomodate a few passengers. It's easier for DL to let the employees alleviate these problems with the customers as they happen.
Also, in all the mergers I've seen or been involved with, I don't recall the surviving airline waiting until the SOC to completed re-branding or re-painting. So, what DL is doing is nothing new.......just SOP as far as I can see.
BTW, this is your title of this thread "Why Has Delta Removed The Northwest Name Already? "
You asked, we told you. Just because you didn't like our answers doesn't make you right and us wrong.Just my two cents, which I am also entitled to.
[Edited 2009-07-10 20:08:57]
''Life's tough . . . It's even tougher if you're stupid..'' The Duke -- John Wayne
CFBFrame From United States, joined May 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0 Reply 84, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4858 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 60): That's the whole point -- a large number of NWA-operated flights are still NW, operated by NW (NWA flight number, NWA aircraft).
Here's the issue- people are getting ahead of the process. If you have NW flight numbers flying into an airport, leave the NW signage up. Whether you've changed terminals or done something else inside the terminal, let the customer know where to go to get checked in.
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 63): IMHO, that's exactly the way it should be until they get rid of NW flight numbers and complete the merger under a single name and operating certificate.
Just don't get too far ahead of yourself. I like hearing the people at the gate are calling NW flights DL despite flight numbers are still NW. Don't you think that might be confusing. Hey, isn't Delta the airline that has very few human announcements made at gates anyway?
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 63): However I believe there are several airports that are doing it the way I see it at DFW, and it is certainly something Delta can correct with the airport authorities if they want to.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 64): What would you have DL do???
Hope that has been explained above
Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 65): Actually, depending on how fine a point you want to put on it, almost all of the NW flights, are still "NW flights" per se.
Do you think this causes confusion? So no matter what you do, if the flight numbers are NW, customers are not buying a merger. You might think you are, but the public is not getting the claim.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 66): I just think that DL is going about it exactly the way they should.....the sooner everything is re-branded, the sooner customers will be familiar with what's going on.
That probably is coming from the eyes of someone who is in the know and not someone trying to figure out how a flight number they have is for an airline that has no airport signage. Many of you here think the world should know DL/NW have merged, but that's not the person you should worry about. The process should be based on the stupid person and how you make 90% of those folks feel comfortable about flying. Never assume your customer is smart, help them feel as if they are smart.
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 75): I'm not going to go on with this silly debate anymore. But if you would take the time to look at my profile I DON'T WORK FOR THE AIRLINES!!!!!! Can I ask though where Mayor or myself have attacked you or doubted your motive ALL WE TRIED TO DO IS EXPLAIN WHY DL MAY BE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING. As I have said before I AM NOT AN AIRLINE EMPLOYEE AND I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT DL OR ANY OTHER AIRLINE DOES.
And you say that to say what? Most of us are using the same system then. Right?
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 77): As for airline codes, it's the joys of res systems. When you've got one airline (DL) on a vintage early-1960s res platform, another airline on a vintage late-1960s res platform, it's the year 2009, and you're trying to combine the two together, it's a major task. It's not as simple as having all flights just pop up as a DL codeshare in the NW res platform.
I really like this one. The airline says the systems are tough to integrate and the customer should bear with them while they work through their 1960s technology merger. But while we go through it the customers should live through NW flight numbers, FFP merger, no NW signage entering the airport, and gate attendants eliminating announcing NW flight numbers. I think we will respect you if you're willing to respect us enough to make the merger dumb enough for 90% to come down the learning curve with you. NEVER MAKE AN ASSUMPTION YOUR CUSTOMER WILL GET AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT IF YOU DON'T. Whether your thinking a good job is being done, the only way you really know is when people stop posting these type threads. Then you know you did it right. So you still think you did it right?
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 85, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4768 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 78): You don't need to be a lurker on A.net to know these two airlines are merging. If people are too oblivious to even watch the news on an occasional basis.... WOW.
I bet somebody could watch the nightly news every day, and not remember that NW and DL are merging. It doesn't come up all that often, and It really isn't that big a deal to most other people. I'll do an informal poll around my workplace, if you want - highly educated people, and fairly frequent travelers. I'd guess maybe half know.
Really - did you know Dow and Rohm and Haas are going through a messy merger? It's been in the news. Genentech and Roche? These things are relevant to my field, so I remember what I hear about them. I don't expect others to.
Smcmac32msn From United States, joined May 2004, 2185 posts, RR: 7 Reply 87, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4738 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 85): Really - did you know Dow and Rohm and Haas are going through a messy merger?
I really don't care if they merged. When somebody buys a ticket to fly, they should know who they are buying the ticket on and atleast figure out what to do before going to the airport....
Of course most these people who can't figure out what they are doing when they buy a NW/DL ticket are the ones that don't pay attention to the road while driving
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
Nwaesc From United States, joined Aug 2007, 1870 posts, RR: 2 Reply 88, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4738 times:
Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 84): Do you think this causes confusion? So no matter what you do, if the flight numbers are NW, customers are not buying a merger. You might think you are, but the public is not getting the claim.
That was my whole point. Sorry if that wasn't clear...
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 89, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4725 times:
For my two cents, this thread has gotten very hostile, and I don't know why. The original observation was at one airport only, DFW. The last few airports I've been through, I'm pretty sure the airport road signs and outside terminal markings said Delta/Northwest. As it should, in my opinion. I wonder which is the norm.
If DFW is the unusual outlier, then it really isn't worth the argument, anyway.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4700 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 78): You don't need to be a lurker on A.net to know these two airlines are merging. If people are too oblivious to even watch the news on an occasional basis.... WOW.
Even if we were to accept that this was the case for most US-based passengers, what about passengers from other countries? What is happening in the US airline industry is not necessarily top of mind in the rest of the world, you know.
Put yourself in their shoes. Suppose you were an American visitor in India for the first time, holding an Indian Airlines ticket with an Indian Airlines flight number, but when you show up at the airport there are no signs directing you to Indian Airlines, only to Air India. What if you were then told "everyone should know the two airlines have merged, and it should be obvious you need to follow the Air India signs".
You think the average non-Indian customer knows that Air India and Indian Airlines have merged, that Jet Airways and Air Sahara have merged, that Kingfisher and Air Deccan have merged? But this is big news in India!
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 91, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4703 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 87):
I really don't care if they merged. When somebody buys a ticket to fly, they should know who they are buying the ticket on and atleast figure out what to do before going to the airport....
Well, that's an entirely different statement from your previous one, and it proves my point. Expecting somebody to read the entire confirmation email is a totally different matter from expecting somebody to remember all the business merger information that might be mentioned on the nightly news.
Tharanga From United States, joined Apr 2009, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 92, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4650 times:
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 90):
Put yourself in their shoes. Suppose you were an American visitor in India for the first time, holding an Indian Airlines ticket with an Indian Airlines flight number, but when you show up at the airport there are no signs directing you to Indian Airlines, only to Air India. What if you were then told "everyone should know the two airlines have merged, and it should be obvious you need to follow the Air India signs".
That reminds me: If I remember correctly, back when IC was the only domestic carrier, Terminal 1A and 1B at DEL were separated by Airbus and Boeing. You had to know what aircraft you were flying to go to the right terminal. I'm sure that caught American visitors off guard.
Am i correct on this? This was at least ten years back.
Sankaps From United States, joined Jan 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4649 times:
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 91): Well, that's an entirely different statement from your previous one, and it proves my point. Expecting somebody to read the entire confirmation email is a totally different matter from expecting somebody to remember all the business merger information that might be mentioned on the nightly news.
Curiously though, I just went to nwa.com and went thru the steps to buy a ticket from DFW-MSP and back. I got to the "Purchase my ticket now" step, and upto that point, there was not one mention -- none, zip, nada -- of Delta anywhere on any of the screens. The web site is NWA, the flights listed were NWA, the FFP program tab was World Perks and not SkyMiles, so basically if you did not already know that the Delta and NWA are not merged, you could have bought your ticket without anything telling you about the connection between the two airlines.
So then this poor passenger shows up at the airport and sees no signage for NWA on the roadways, somehow finds the right terminal, and finds his NW flight being referred to as a DL flight in the gate announcements, but it is his fault for maybe getting a tad confused?
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because of the messes with YX/F9 covering most the aviation time when they talk about it in the local news.
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