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Why No Mainline DL/NW At DSM?  
User currently offlineEvanbu From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 379 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6165 times:

Just taking a look at the schedules and I noticed that DL/NW does not have ANY mainline flights in and out of DSM to either MSP, DTW, MEM, or DCA. I can understand DCA but why no mainline to MSP or DTW? I remember just a few years ago that the head-start flight was on a DC-9 sometimes the A319 to MSP.

I also looked at the airports around the midwest and found that GFK, FSD, FAR, MSN, OMA, GRB, and RAP all have mainline...

Is DSM just not that big of a market and are over-saturated with competition? Or is it because XJ have a maintenance facility at DSM and DL/NW would prefer to keep all AC in and out of DSM on the CRJ?

Just wondering...

Thanks

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6154 times:



Quoting Evanbu (Thread starter):
Is DSM just not that big of a market and are over-saturated with competition?

My guess is that the DL market there is pretty small and that most of the FF base is with AA and especially UA. This is also the case with the smaller cities like GFK, FSD, FAR, and RAP where DL (formerly NW) was pretty much the only game in town and therefore dominated the local FF base.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineUncgso From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6099 times:

Heck, GSO is about to be ALL regional to everywhere. Had 10 DL 727, 737, M88's a day to ATL/CVG once, not too long ago. At least DSM still has UA. Flew once US GSO-PIT 737-400, PIT-DSM F100. Those were the days...and the flights were full...Just thank goodness for Allegiant!

User currently offlineEvanbu From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5981 times:

I had an agent at DSM tell me that AA doesn't fly into DSM with mainline because of a contract with pilots that prohibits mainline flights into DSM. There is no way this is possible, right? I mean if AA wants to fly Mad Dog into DSM they can right?

User currently offlineDbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Believe me, gate agents know NOTHING about pilot contracts with the company. Just like how pilots know nothing about operating a jetbridge, the belt loader, or most other things about gate agents' jobs.

User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8912 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5853 times:

Agree - I doubt either the pilots or management would dictate that would not allow mainline to fly into a station. I doubt it's even a case of AA replacing mainline employees with Eagle employees there (AA hasn't had mainline to DSM in at least 15 years). It's most likely due to UA having such a dominant position at DSM - most convenient hubs for Des Moines (Chicago to go East, Denver handles the West). MSP is a bit out of the way, but for those interested parties, they still do offer first class into DSM (on 2 flights to MSP and the SLC flight) and Delta also has a strong PtP network - they serve 8 destinations out of DSM (including LGA and DCA).

User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5830 times:



Quoting Evanbu (Thread starter):
Or is it because XJ have a maintenance facility at DSM and DL/NW would prefer to keep all AC in and out of DSM on the CRJ?

That has a lot to do with it. DL has to rotate CR9's into DSM on a regular basis for maintenance. 9E has a harder time at FWA now that the MSP flight is gone. They'll have 2 FWA-DTW flights before 7a to get CR2's back in the system.

Might not be mainline, but at least you'll have F seats to upgrade into. And odds of losing them are slim because of the MX hangar.


User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

Many of the stronghold Northwest heartland stations (FAR, DLH, RST, GFK etc) have been taking cuts over the past few years. I bet, the DC-9's that frequent these stations are being retired to the desert. RST lost all mainline a few months ago, and DLH does in a few months. I just think that DSM, albeit bigger than the above markets, shouldn't be shocked to not have mainline. This seems to be part of Delta's strategy.


Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlineEvanbu From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5766 times:



Quoting Toltommy (Reply 6):
That has a lot to do with it. DL has to rotate CR9's into DSM on a regular basis for maintenance. 9E has a harder time at FWA now that the MSP flight is gone. They'll have 2 FWA-DTW flights before 7a to get CR2's back in the system.

Might not be mainline, but at least you'll have F seats to upgrade into. And odds of losing them are slim because of the MX hangar.

Just looked at the NW flight schedule for MSP-DSM for today and beyond, and it appears that the 1st flight of the day from MSP to DSM (7:00 a.m. departure) was upgraded from a SAAB to a CRJ. I'm guessing because of the MX facility?? Wow, the loads must have gotten a little bit better. I was always surprised to see the SAAB at DSM when waiting for my CO flight from DSM-IAH


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5738 times:



Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 7):
I bet, the DC-9's that frequent these stations are being retired to the desert.

I do think that they will most likely see an overall drop in mainline capacity when the DC-9s do eventually go. The economics of these flights might be interesting since the DC-9 is more costly to fly than other aircraft, but I should think that the airline sees pretty good yields on these routes, some of which are virtual monopolies. These may some of the last places to see DC-9s when they are retired...sometime...in the future.  Smile



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5711 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The economics of these flights might be interesting since the DC-9 is more costly to fly than other aircraft,

As has been said many times on these fora, however, on many short flights (of the MSP-RST and DTW-FNT variety, and even MSP-FAR or DTW-MKE) the economics of the DC-9 are nearly comparable to newer aircraft types, as taxiing, takeoff, and landing consume so much fuel and represent such a large percentage of the flight.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5710 times:



Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 10):

Which further means that the DC-9s aren't going anytime soon. Really a smart move on the part of the airline - minimize the disadvantages and use them on routes where they can keep revenues fairly high.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5705 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):

Which further means that the DC-9s aren't going anytime soon. Really a smart move on the part of the airline - minimize the disadvantages and use them on routes where they can keep revenues fairly high.

Of course. But why Delta -- and the new proprietors of that 83-year-old airline called Northwest -- fail to acknowledge this by operating the DC-9 on the routes for which it was intended is the subject under discussion.

My explanation? A desire to downsize mainline so drastically that practically every station except top-20 cities is operated by feeder carriers. Motivation for that? Short-sighted profit.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5703 times:



Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 12):
My explanation? A desire to downsize mainline so drastically that practically every station except top-20 cities is operated by feeder carriers. Motivation for that? Short-sighted profit.

I doubt that it is quite that sinister, but all airlines are looking to trim the fat (and somethings that aren't fat) at this point.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5658 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
My guess is that the DL market there is pretty small and that most of the FF base is with AA and especially UA.

I do believe UA is tops there, they get mainline, even 757's at times from ORD and DEN. However though DSM was one of NW's heartland markets, so now combined with DL they run a pretty impressive schedule there:

MSP 6x
DTW 4x
CVG 2x
LGA 1x
DCA 1x
ATL 3x
MEM 3x
SLC 1x

That's 21 daily flights so pretty impressive, not even UA or AA can top that in destinations served. MSP. SLC, MEM do get some of he CR9 flights with first class, DTW used to but I am not sure if they still do

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
AA hasn't had mainline to DSM in at least 15 years

actually they did still have F100's to DFW until they got retired which was about 8-9 years ago I think


User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5614 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I doubt that it is quite that sinister,

It's debatable. Especially when one looks at larger markets than DSM and examines the type of aircraft flown into them on airlines like UA and CO. I'm not naming city names here but those two airlines are NOTORIOUS for overuse of regional jets.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5558 times:



Quoting Lexy (Reply 15):
I'm not naming city names here but those two airlines are NOTORIOUS for overuse of regional jets.

I will. STL doesn't get mainline service from either, (I don't know when UA will pull the last 737 from DEN) and UA is pulling IND and MIA too.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEvanbu From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5467 times:



Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 14):
LGA 1x

I thought DSM-LGA was 2X daily...


User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5437 times:



Quoting Evanbu (Reply 8):
Just looked at the NW flight schedule for MSP-DSM for today and beyond, and it appears that the 1st flight of the day from MSP to DSM (7:00 a.m. departure) was upgraded from a SAAB to a CRJ. I'm guessing because of the MX facility??

No, my understanding is the the DSM hangar is for CR9 mx. If you look at DSM-MSP, you'll see that flight actually just turns and comes back to MSP.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5393 times:



Quoting Evanbu (Reply 17):
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 14):
LGA 1x

I thought DSM-LGA was 2X daily...

actually it looks like this is operated by Comair now with a CR7 1x Sun-Fri


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5370 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
I will. STL doesn't get mainline service from either, (I don't know when UA will pull the last 737 from DEN) and UA is pulling IND and MIA too.

As I recall, sometime ago there was a thread regarding the largest cities that have no mainline service for each major US carrier. Obviously aircraft deployments change, but at the time, STL was the largest metro area (~2.8 million) that had no mainline flights from an airline that does serve it (CO, in that case). As UA presumably will pull that last mainline flight with the closure of mainline staffing, I suppose STL will have the dubious honor of being the largest airline without mainline service from 2 major carriers. As CO and UA will be the cornerstones of Star Alliance in the states, I would imagine they will be at a disadvantage in STL.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5328 times:



Quoting Evanbu (Reply 3):
I had an agent at DSM tell me that AA doesn't fly into DSM with mainline because of a contract with pilots that prohibits mainline flights into DSM. There is no way this is possible, right? I mean if AA wants to fly Mad Dog into DSM they can right?

Nothing like the rumor mill from the field. Now why in the world would the pilots have a clause in their contract PROHIBITING mainline flying and instead insist in REGIONAL flying????

This is like the rumor I heard from an AA employee along time ago that if DAL opened up, AA would move their DFW hub to MCI.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
AA hasn't had mainline to DSM in at least 15 years)

Not true. They flew MD-80s to DFW within the last 15 years. ORD hasnt seen mainline since the mid 1990s.


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4431 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5280 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Evanbu (Thread starter):
Or is it because XJ have a maintenance facility at DSM and DL/NW would prefer to keep all AC in and out of DSM on the CRJ?

Exactly right, the CR9's are serviced overnight in DSM, so luckily DSM will always be guaranteed a couple CR9 morning departures that way. Currently there are three CR9's leaving DSM before 7am- two to MSP and one to MEM.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 14):
I do believe UA is tops there, they get mainline, even 757's at times from ORD and DEN

That use to be the case, however the new DL/NW combined had the largest passenger share for May, followed by UA and AA. G4 is a distant fourth, closely followed by US.


User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5272 times:

I'll be honest, I would like to see WN enter the DSM market sometime in the future. I think they are a market that could be stimulated dramatically from the additon of WN. Just my thoughts on it though. Seems DSM, like OMA, is a good steroetypical WN market. I really wonder what has kept them out this long?


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4431 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5252 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Lexy (Reply 23):
I'll be honest, I would like to see WN enter the DSM market sometime in the future. I think they are a market that could be stimulated dramatically from the additon of WN. Just my thoughts on it though. Seems DSM, like OMA, is a good steroetypical WN market. I really wonder what has kept them out this long?

It certainly could be stimulated by WN, and FL by quite a bit as well IMO. The only thing is, DSM has a little more than half the population of OMA, and less than half the traffic numbers. But to be real, WN is going for the big markets right now, not the smaller ones such as DSM and RIC for example. I think it MAY happen eventually, but it won't be anytime soon. They could run a similar schedule out of DSM as they do in OMA, say 4x MDW, 2x PHX, 2x LAS, and maybe a couple DEN and STL eventually. But that's even a stretch.


25 SNCntry32 : XJ has a MX base in DSM, however I always thought DSM was a 'regoional' station. A little off topic, but I find it intresting that DTW-OMA is all CRJ
26 Joeljack : If OMA can only support 6xMDW 3xDEN 2xPHX (recently reduced) 2x LAS (recently reduced) and 3x STL, what makes you think a market half the size would
27 Iowaman : No, but when they run out of cities to add they may be forced to, even though it would be a very small station. Well, I stated 8x would work, which i
28 CIDFlyer : I agree, at some point they are going to have to open newer type markets after the big ones are taken. They didnt care about opening up BOS between P
29 Azjubilee : XJ mx in DSM works on the CRJ200 overnighter as well. DSM has been a mx facility for XJ for many years. It's just recently we have a new hanger for th
30 Tango-Bravo : So what then was with the American Airlines MD-80 I saw at DSM in July 2002...operating on a scheduled AA flight to STL?
31 KcrwFlyer : Why? The ground handling aspects of their business plan need to change before they open up smaller stations. WN's not going to staff a station withou
32 Iowaman : The new hangar is for the CR9's IIRC, with the old being used for the CR2's. Both CID and DSM had MD-80's operating to STL throughout '02 and part of
33 Azjubilee : The new hanger is for all Mesaba a/c if necessary. It's a primary mx facility for the 900s, but that doesn't mean they don't do work on our other flee
34 CIDFlyer : toally forgot about the TWA merger, yes AA did operate M80s to STL 7-8 years ago... at one time we supported 8 M80's to STL....
35 Skyrat : The MSP flight is still operating out of FWA.
36 Lexy : I don't know anything about CID, but DSM could support 8-10 flights a day on WN to stations other than DEN and MDW. Be nice if they would connect the
37 FWAERJ : As mentioned before, FWA-MSP is still operating (though it almost got the axe). However, FWA-DTW is now 4x daily on Saturdays instead of 5x daily sta
38 Iowa744fan : A quick question - probably Iowaman can answer this for me. I don't get to fly into DSM much anymore. Can you tell me where the new XJ hangar is so th
39 Azjubilee : The hanger is near UPS. It's on the opposite side of the 31/13 from the terminal. You can't miss it... it's got a huge MESABA AIRLINES sign on the fro
40 UPSMD11 : Even thought we have mainline at SDF it's shrinking and we have no service on DL to LGA, DCA or SLC. You folks in DSM should consider yourself lucky.
41 KcrwFlyer : I was thinking the same thing......
42 Skyrat : This is the norm for the airlines on Saturdays. Even though I have been to stations that have had increases on flights on Saturdays.
43 Evanbu : So does this mean the end of the SAAB's at DSM? Or will they return for the first flight from MSP?
44 CIDflyer : I think it will be the end of SAAB service to DSM, here at CID we will lose the SAABs too and become all CRJs to MSP.
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