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EK To AMS - Why Not?  
User currently offlineCV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 343 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11259 times:
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Maybe this has been discussed before not sure if so my apologies.
I was amazed to see that EK don't fly to AMS even though KL and AF do fly to DXB.
AMS/The Netherlands must be one of the largest markets which don't have an EK presence - does anyone know the reasons. I know KL are pretty competitive in the home market but I can't imagine that would deter EK too much after all the fly to some highly competitive destinations.


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96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11226 times:

I was SO hoping that an announcement has been made....  Sad

But indeed, AMS is a top 15 airport in the world, but is not served by EK, even though many other smaller airports (like Manchester) are served by EK. It seems odd, but at least we get cargo flights...

Quoting CV990Coronado (Thread starter):
I know KL are pretty competitive in the home market

This could be an important reason, the dominance of KL in the home market. Although, this hasn't stopped other long-haul airlines to (succesfully) serve AMS. Maybe the lack of an alliance, to help EK with traffic feed?



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User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8572 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11187 times:
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I was under the impression ( sorry , I cant remember where I read this ) that EK has 'x' number of frequencies permitted to AMS to be used as they see fit for pax and or cargo services , and that they find the cargo sufficiently lucrative that they have devoted all their frequencies to freight . If anyone can verify , or alternatively, refute this please let me know .


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1692 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11176 times:

This has been discussed before, but I don't think we've had a thread dedicated to this. So here goes:

The reason why EK may not feel comfortable at AMS is because this is a small market. The only reason why KL has so many flights to DXB is because KLM is a transit airline-it relies on its network to carry people from Africa/Asia/Middle East to Europe, North/South America, thanks to its intricate bar-bell hub system with NWA (or should I say Delta). The percentage of people who are O&D on AMS-DXB-AMS are minimal-I don't have the stats to back this up but it's no secret.

If EK started DXB-AMS, then it would dilute the Dubai-Amsterdam market even more, which is accessible through ten weekly (?) nonstops and frequent 1-stops through LH, AF, LX, OS etc. EK has the benefit of a huge Australasian network to feed its network, but then again KL already offers nonstops to many places in Asia and the Middle East and Africa that it is sure of getting premium pax. EK would then be competing with LH, LX, OS, BA, MS, AF, AY, as a 1-stop carrier between Amsterdam and Australasia. It's a difficult game.

Perhaps that's the reason why EK has no intention of serving markets which have somewhat strong carriers serving them (ARN, CPH, AMS, BRU). A route like AMS may work with an A319 or A320, but EK does not have them in its fleet. The smallest thing it has is an A332, and it would have to make AMS daily to compete.

This is yet another example of certain airlines making certain cities work-provided it's one sided. An extreme example would be EK serving Newcastle but BA not serving Newcastle-Dubai, for example.

Perhaps when more A330s are freed up, and when the economic climate improves, then EK can consider AMS. It may seem a crucial market, but perhaps this is only thanks to a strong national carrier. Perhaps someone with Netherlands-Australasia pax figures could provide insight as to how big that market really is.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11077 times:

This is EK major missing link especially considing AMS is such a strong oil route (the HQ of Shell for example) and would draw a lot of connections in the gulf region.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 3):
The reason why EK may not feel comfortable at AMS is because this is a small market.

This is not true, many airlines operate dedicated flight to AMS without KLM partnership such as CX daily B747 HKG-AMS, SQ daily B772 SIN-AMS, UA daily IAD-AMS and ORD-AMS, JAL daily B772 NRT-AMS, or CI B747 TPE-AMS, among others.
Rgs,


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11042 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
This is not true, many airlines operate dedicated flight to AMS without KLM partnership such as CX daily B747 HKG-AMS, SQ daily B772 SIN-AMS, UA daily IAD-AMS and ORD-AMS, JAL daily B772 NRT-AMS, or CI B747 TPE-AMS, among others.

What would be the added benefit of having EK at AMS then?
Yes, I am sure EK can fill those widebodies from AMS, but it will be full of garbage in terms of yield. They would predominantly attract leisure traffic, which is fine in itself, but I don't think EK's business model is suited to that. Premium traffic to DXB already can fly on KL, heck even if traffic wants to connect beyond DXB it can currently do so already, as with most J-fares it wouldn't be a problem to interline between KL and EK.


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4897 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10974 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
EK has 'x' number of frequencies permitted to AMS to be used as they see fit for pax and or cargo services , and that they find the cargo sufficiently lucrative that they have devoted all their frequencies to freight

This is exactly right. Mixing in some PAX frequencies simply would not work as:

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 3):
EK would have to make AMS daily to compete.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
(the HQ of Shell for example) and would draw a lot of connections in the gulf region.

Shell HQ is in Houston, Texas. Even before the total tie up of Shell and Royal Dutch Shell it's head offices were in the Hague and London.  Wink

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10885 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 6):
Shell HQ is in Houston, Texas. Even before the total tie up of Shell and Royal Dutch Shell it's head offices were in the Hague and London

Shell Oil Company is the United States-based affiliate of Royal Dutch Shell, a multinational oil company ("oil major") of Anglo Dutch origins which has its Headquarters in The Hague, The Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Dutch_Shell

Rgs,


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10824 times:

Remember too that EK serves DXB from nearby DUS which is about 110 miles from AMS and close to the Dutch border. DUS is well connected to Holland by fast road links and there's also a fairly speedy rail service from the city's main train station which is directly linked by S-Bahn (a metro rail service).

For that reason DUS must already attract a fair number of Dutch passengers using EK.

But many Dutch travellers head from AMS to Asia and Australia both for business and pleasure. So I too am surprised that EK hasn't yet started flying from Holland.


User currently offlineAl2637 From Ireland, joined Oct 2006, 407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10754 times:

This has often puzzled me too. I agree there isn't much traffic AMS-DXB, BUT, EK's model isn't about ferrying OD traffic to DXB, it's about the onward connections. AMS really has quite a large catchement area, probably more than the likes of NCL, GLA, NCE etc.

Airlines like CX and SQ seem to make AMS-Connection-Destination routes work, I'm sure EK could too. The fares on the CX and SQ routes are generally much higher than to the same destiantions from LHR. Also, I frequently notice that even KLM's fares on AMS-Asia are much higher than their fares on LHR-AMS-Asia (i.e. with an extra leg.. and yes I understand why: supply/demand).. which suggests the yield is there.


User currently offlineCc2314 From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10716 times:



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 5):

Does it really matter if its yeild is full of garbage ????? Im sure ek have plenty of flights out of india to the uae which would be full of pax which dont idelically fit into their Biz model.

I think if they can fill Y class along with a good bit of freight below deck they should give it a shot.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8572 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10672 times:
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does anyone actually have a copy of the Air Services Agreement between the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the United Arab Emirates ? I have tried to google it but only found a double taxation treaty .


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10663 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
This is not true, many airlines operate dedicated flight to AMS without KLM partnership such as CX daily B747 HKG-AMS, SQ daily B772 SIN-AMS, UA daily IAD-AMS and ORD-AMS, JAL daily B772 NRT-AMS, or CI B747 TPE-AMS, among others.

US-PHL-AMS
OpenSkies-JFK-AMS

I was looking at AA and i just realized they don't fly to AMS either, is this a similar reason?


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10612 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 12):
I was looking at AA and i just realized they don't fly to AMS either, is this a similar reason?

AA operates to BRU instead of AMS but BA"s Openskies flies AMS-JFK. of the US carriers AMS has flights from NW, US, UA, CO, and DL, being AA the only major carrier not to operate in AMS.

For more info on AMS-United States traffic see

United States-AMS December 2008 Traffic (by Hardiwv Jun 14 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Rgs,


User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10570 times:

I have been across similar threads earlier and I myself find it puzzling that NO gulf carrier serves AMS. And honestly I have not found even one convincing answer.

1)The gulf carriers along with O & D would like to target the connecting traffic to SE Asia , Australia. So filling up the planes will never be a problem. So the prospect that there is no traffic, is incorrect according to many postings in the past.

2) Bilateral Issues? well if KLM can operate a daily flight to the Gulf I'm sure that a reciprocal right must be existing in the bilateral as well.

3)Is there a hidden reason, that the normal public does not know?

Besides carriers like Oman Air, Qatar Airways have an added advantage that KLM does not serve MCT,DOH non stop. With a superior in flight product and non stop service can help WY,QR.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8572 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10529 times:
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Quoting Ojas (Reply 14):
2) Bilateral Issues? well if KLM can operate a daily flight to the Gulf I'm sure that a reciprocal right must be existing in the bilateral as well.

that's why I have asked above if anyone has a link to the Netherlands - UAE Air Services Agreement - in the back of my head I have the feeling that EK chooses to use all its frequencies for cargo , but I would like confirmation whether I am just recycling an Anet urban legend or whether I am actually correct for once .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10486 times:

Quoting Ojas (Reply 14):
2) Bilateral Issues? well if KLM can operate a daily flight to the Gulf I'm sure that a reciprocal right must be existing in the bilateral as well.

KLM does not operate "a daily flight to the Gulf" but it has an extensive network in the Gulf countries including 10 weekly flights to DXB, in addition to services to AUH, KWI, BAH, MCT, DMM and DOH.

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-07-15 07:22:28]

User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10449 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
KLM does not operate "a daily flight to the Gulf" but the following it has an extensive network in the Gulf countries including DXB, AUH, KWI, BAH, MCT, DMM and DOH.

My bad, typed in a hurry.

Yes they fly to DXB daily whereas DMM-DOH, AUH-MCT are 5 weekly; and BAH is 4 weekly. However I'm keen to know what the rights on paper are, so even not daily some 5 weekly frequencies must be available for the gulf carriers.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10372 times:

Quoting Ojas (Reply 17):
Yes they fly to DXB daily

AMS-DXB is 10 weekly.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 17):
whereas DMM-DOH, AUH-MCT are 5 weekly; and BAH is 4 weekly

Lets make things clearer -

AMS-DXB B772 10 x week
AMS-AUH-MCT A332 5 x week
AMS-DMM-DOH A332 5 x week
AMS-BAH A332 4 x week
AMS-KWI A332 4 x week

KLM operates 28 weekly flights to 7 destinations in the oil-rich Gulf region.

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-07-15 07:41:29]

User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4897 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10349 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
Shell Oil Company is the United States-based affiliate of Royal Dutch Shell, a multinational oil company ("oil major") of Anglo Dutch origins which has its Headquarters in The Hague, The Netherlands.

Well the amalgamated Shell HQ is in IAH and I already pointed out that Anglo-Dutch Shell was HQed in The Hague.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 14):
2) Bilateral Issues? well if KLM can operate a daily flight to the Gulf I'm sure that a reciprocal right must be existing in the bilateral as well.

I think the notion that cargo is more lucrative holds.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10324 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 19):
Well the amalgamated Shell HQ is in IAH and I already pointed out that Anglo-Dutch Shell was HQed in The Hague.

As I said, Houston only has a subsisiary (affiliated) of Royal Dutch Shell while the world HQ is in The Hague.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10243 times:



Quoting Al2637 (Reply 9):
This has often puzzled me too. I agree there isn't much traffic AMS-DXB, BUT, EK's model isn't about ferrying OD traffic to DXB, it's about the onward connections. AMS really has quite a large catchement area, probably more than the likes of NCL, GLA, NCE etc.



Quoting Al2637 (Reply 9):
Also, I frequently notice that even KLM's fares on AMS-Asia are much higher than their fares on LHR-AMS-Asia (i.e. with an extra leg.. and yes I understand why: supply/demand).. which suggests the yield is there.

= AMS is probably one of the lowest yielding European markets. If you think otherwise, look at the yield comparisons on AMS-North America flights and compare it with other European gateways. I use North America as the data is publicly available.

With poor yields, AMS needs to funnel traffic beyond DXB - this is harder as traffic is already carried by KL and AF among others. Cities like MAN do not have a large global airline at its doorstep.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10213 times:

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
= AMS is probably one of the lowest yielding European markets. If you think otherwise, look at the yield comparisons on AMS-North America flights and compare it with other European gateways. I use North America as the data is publicly available.

This is not true and was widely discussed here on a.net. This is a huge myth.

Amsterdam is the centre of the so called Randstad (Rim City) which is a conurbation consisting of the four largest Dutch cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht), and the surrounding areas. With its over 10 million, it is one of the largest conurbations in Europe. It is the home of 50 of Fortune 500 corporation and the busiest port in Europe.

The Randstad is the 3rd wealthiest metropolitan area in Europe measured by GDP behind Paris, London and Milan.

For more information on US-AMS traffic and KL/NW extensive network from AMS to the US see

United States-AMS December 2008 Traffic (by Hardiwv Jun 14 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-07-15 08:28:35]

User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10192 times:



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
AMS is probably one of the lowest yielding European markets. If you think otherwise, look at the yield comparisons on AMS-North America flights and compare it with other European gateways. I use North America as the data is publicly available.

Not strictly true. I feel that London is a lower-yield market, especially to Asia and Australasia, because of our weak GBP. Compare economy and premium class fares ex-LHR with ex-AMS with one of the main online booking sites and you will see what I mean.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13165 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10184 times:
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Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
I was SO hoping that an announcement has been made....

You were not the only one!  rotfl  I thought EK had switched their strategy at AMS.  Sad

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 8):
which is about 110 miles from AMS

Nitpick, most airports draw a substantial portion of their traffic from within 45 minutes. 60 minutes still provides a decent amount of traffic. While people will travel 120 minutes to an airport, they will tend to travel less due to the hassle of the airport trip.

So unless there are a number of dedicated busses to BRU to shuffle traffic there, the fraction of passengers from 170+km away will be small. (e.g., LAX is served by dedicated buses that transfer passengers from Van Nuys, Lancaster, Santa Barbara, Riverside (and other Inland Empire cities), Orange county (I forget where the pick ups are), and even San Diego. This presents it with a HUGE catchment area. Between rail and buses, I would expect AMS to be in a similar position. But BRU? I'm not aware of as large a network to efficiently and quickly move people from far away to that airport. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
KLM operates 28 weekly flights to 7 destinations in the oil-rich Gulf region.

A convienient 4 daily flights to the region.  spin 

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
With poor yields

and a lack of aircraft (for EK), this is the main reason EK has not entered the market.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
25 Abrelosojos : = The numbers you post are segment traffic data and does not indicate much about the Amsterdam market. Having a high load factor is not necessarily a
26 LondonCity : Another thread on this site has discussed the opening of the new high-speed train line linking Amsterdam and Rotterdam with Brussels which will open
27 Hardiwv : But you have not provided any other hard data to counter our argument. In addition the fact I mentioned above that AMS is the catching area for Europ
28 Thestooges : There are a few demographic factors that might explain why EK flies to numerous airport in the UK but not AMS. The largest ethnic minority groups in t
29 Hardiwv : Thanks for shedding some lights on this discussion. As I mentioned above, KL already operates 4 daily flights to the Gulf region alone covering DXB,
30 PHKLM : This is exactly the point. You can endlessly compare apples and oranges, but it is a given fact that AMS has an excellent portfolio of international
31 Abrelosojos : = The data I have access to is usually proprietary and needs more work ... and hence I mentioned, in my first post, the lack of public data. I pulled
32 Directorguy : I'm not saying AMS can't support a nice number of longhaul airlines because it obviously does. But there's a limit, and EK would enter a competitive
33 Post contains links Abrelosojos : = I forgot to comment on this. You keep on mentioning AMS is within the catchment area of Europe's 3rd richest region ... but catchment area for prem
34 Thestooges : I was assuming that this was certainly so, especially when compared to the the UK-South Asian (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) VFR market.
35 Post contains links Hardiwv : The response was that AMS actually has high yields. On the contrary, many have agreed with me, look on the link I provided to you and above. But AMS
36 BartBus : Well my first post, be gentle. I think it would be a good idea for EK to open EIN-DXB. Virtually no competition. AMS is about an our drive (without tr
37 PHKLM : Welcome to A.net. As far as your idea, I reckon you're thinking about daily A380 to start with? No serious, it's a sure no-go to even remotely think
38 BartBus : Well a A330 will be fine. I don't see why they won't do it. EIN has only O&D traffic which suits EK's business model better. Sure it is a safe bet to
39 Viscount724 : The UK is a much larger market for historical and ethnic reasons to/from major EK connecting destinations such as Australia, New Zealand and India. T
40 Hardiwv : Welcome to a.net. I personally think AMS would work better because of AMS location and connectivity among other factors. Other non-KLM partners have
41 Thestooges : Yes traditional Dutch thriftiness, I can definitely tell you sometihng about that !!! Holland is about the only place where you'll see some businessw
42 Abrelosojos : = I am surprised ... because I just pulled the number. = I read the thread carefully and it seems many respected members of the board had a different
43 Hardiwv : Funny, I did the same. Point well taken. What do you mean by others? Berlin, Geneva, Luxemburg, Hamburg, Zurich? (as per your list of major European
44 Directorguy : Welcome to a.net It's interesting to see new ideas. Personally, it's interesting to think about the possibilities. You say that there is a lot of bus
45 Abrelosojos : = You are now confusing two arguments ... yield vs. traffic. AMS gets more traffic than some other cities because it might have higher demand and/or
46 Gkirk : Why not? It seems to do fairly well flying out of Newcastle's 2,332m runway
47 BartBus : Well I don't think the runway is the problem, AN-225 and MD-11 have used the airport before. But the main reason to operate from EIN would be to avoi
48 Hardiwv : When UA uses F/C cabin or CX uses F/C in AMS without counting on onward connection we could conclude they are certainly having good yields. Btw, in 2
49 Abrelosojos : = The conversation thus far - and my point at each step was questioning AMS's yield - not its traffic potential. I will disagree with your above comm
50 Viscount724 : You can't draw that conclusion. UA has F and J class cabins on their entire international widebody fleet, but that doesn't mean every route they serv
51 Gffgold : Interestingly, GA intends to fly CGK-DXB-AMS early in 2010 now that the EU ban has been lifted on some Indonesian carriers. Not sure why they have cho
52 Thestooges : I'm not sure why either, but as far as I can remember, when Garuda did last fly to Amsterdam they did stop somewhere on the way as well. I actually d
53 Huaiwei : The route was last flown via SIN until its termination on 28 October 2004, pitting itself against SQ. This time, it will have to square off with EK w
54 Thestooges : So I was correct in my assumption that CGK-AMS has never actually been flown non-stop before !!! However, couldn't Garuda's 747-400's make the flight
55 SurfandSnow : AMS also lacks service from AA, another key global airline with a major European footprint. I suppose in both cases (for AA as well as the rapidly eme
56 Post contains links Huaiwei : That was in 26 October 2008, not 2009. http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_...b8911bb110VgnVCM1000000ad21c39____ CX has codeshare aggrements with Fin
57 Hardiwv : My whole point was to challenge your assumption that AMS has low yields. On the contrary, I have provided a lot of evidence and factual information p
58 SASDC8 : I think the main reason would be to improve loads (if not yields) considering the amount of Indonesian workers in Dubai. I think EK eventually will f
59 Hardiwv : Let us not forget that EK already flies into AMS with the B747F cargo-only operation. Besides having good traffic and yields AMS is also a strong car
60 Directorguy : I didn't know NCL's runway was that short. In that case EK has no need to anticipate operational issues at EIN. Is EIN in the AMS city code or is it
61 Hardiwv : EIN is a totally separate city with an area population of over 2 million and its economy driven mainly by Philips and DAF which attracted many hi-tec
62 BasilFawlty : The flight has been downgraded to a B777 since June this year.
63 AMS : Actually as mentioned before; on the Dusseldorf-Dubai route about 50% of the passengers are originating from the Netherlands, Therefore EK does not se
64 SASDC8 : Or I think he meant CGK-DXB were EK has had a monopoly for years I think that EK future expansion into Europe will be very interesting to follow and
65 Post contains links Hardiwv : MH downgraded AMS to B772 seasonally only, it will be back to 3-class B747 from October 2009. This because effective October 2009 MH will suspend KUL
66 Post contains links and images SASDC8 : I am just being picky They (the 747's) are wet leased from Atlas Air and TNT. This is why all images of them at Anet show either Atlas Air or TNT beh
67 Wukka : Is it possible that the cultural differences alone are something to be considered? Perhaps a rather conservative environment chooses not to fly into a
68 Kiwiandrew : 'interesting' notion , but if you look at the rest of EKs routemap there are many other destinations at least as liberal as AMS which they do serve .
69 AMS : I don't think that that cultural differences has anything to do for EK not flying to AMS. Dusseldorf is receiving already 50% of the Dutch market. th
70 BrouAviation : There is. But this traffic flows via SIN and HKG by CX, SQ and KL. India and Pakistan are also very well served by KL. :D. It's the fastest and most
71 Post contains links Planesailing : http://gem.sciences-po.fr/content/re...LANDS-UNITED%20ARAB%20EMIRATES.pdf http://untreaty.un.org/unts/144078_158780/5/5/12975.pdf This seems to be pa
72 Directorguy : Shame, I hope Garuda retains CGK-DXB though. A five weekly A333 would be just the thing. EK has succeeded in not bowing to regional aeropolitics of t
73 Post contains images Kiwiandrew : Thanks for posting it    but I think that your interpretation may be incorrect for two reasons : 1 / if it were correct KL would not be able to fly
74 Post contains links Planesailing : With reference solely to: http://gem.sciences-po.fr/content/re...LANDS-UNITED%20ARAB%20EMIRATES.pdf Page 48, or 10/12 of the actual document states Ro
75 Kiwiandrew : thanks James , I appreciate your help , you would not believe some of the garbage that came up when I tried searching with similar parameters - the f
76 Post contains links Planesailing : Can we talk about India? They have listed their Bilateral Agreements in full up to 2006. http://dgca.nic.in/bilateral/Bilateral.pdf The Emirates SkyCa
77 Huaiwei : Sorry for the confusion guys, but cheers to SASDC8 for getting it right! This is jumping the gun a little, considering you are just judging one airli
78 BrouAviation : Have you considered that: - The population of the Netherlands is way smaller than the countries of FRA, CDG and LHR? - There is something like codesh
79 Viscount724 : Many governments don't bother filing their air service agreements with ICAO. Many probably don't even know they're supposed to do it. And many agreem
80 Post contains links Directorguy : I used this link http://untreaty.un.org/unts/144078_158780/5/5/12976.pdf and indeed, it does state that any UAE airline must route its flight via Mus
81 Planesailing : To understand it, you have to go back to through the history of commercial aviation in the UAE and Oman. Gulf Air in 1973 was purchased from BOAC by
82 Kiwiandrew : yes , but it also contains the following wording Notes 1. Intermediate and beyond points on any of the specified routes may, at the option of the des
83 Planesailing : There are no intermediate and beyond points specificed in the agreement, only the comment "to be nominated later." The stipulation of the agreement i
84 Airbuseric : They did for a long time, later just seasonal. Now only codeshare via Star Alliance through FRA and LHR (LH/BD) Codeshare via Star Alliance, using LH
85 Huaiwei : I suppose both of you have missed the point. The only reason why I bother to create that list, is not to directly tackle the issue of yields on AMS r
86 Airbuseric : Of course not. All carriers you've listed above would come to AMS if they can fill up their planes. But they can't keep the route profitable enough.
87 BrouAviation : I guess it's not a matter of not profitable enough, but of efficiency and more profits when choosing alternate routing. AMS may be profitable, but FR
88 Viscount724 : Your DUB 2008 passenger traffic number is much too high. DUB handled 23.5 million in 2008, not 37.4 million.
89 Seemyseems : KL has quite good prices to Dubai, I found that KL is cheaper than EK to Dubai (from MAN).
90 Huaiwei : Well clearly BrouAviation got my point while Airbuseric didn't, but I think I shall just leave it as that. Ultimately, nothing concrete can be derive
91 LondonCity : Indirect carriers will almost always undercut direct flight airlines.
92 Petertenthije : That's just a post box for tax reasons. Maybe half a dozen sales representatives but that's about it. Why not? The RNLAF has a twice weekly IL-76 shu
93 Directorguy : I get the point. EIN can accomodate A332s.
94 BrouAviation : Maybe a stupid question, but why actually? I have always wondered. Here in NL, a transit passenger pays way less taxes and fees than a starting passe
95 LondonCity : Simply because the average passenger would rather fly direct (quicker journey) than change planes en route (longer journey, more hassle, more chance
96 Mas777 : and CDG :0)
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