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Are US Carriers Disadvantaged In Canada?  
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 946 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

Are US carriers disadvantaged in Canada? With the US immigration and customs control done in selected Canadian airports Canadian airlines can fly virtually anywhere in US, while US carriers are limited to selected airports set up with border control. So Air Canada can fly and get some feeder traffic from MKE, BUF, BDL, IND etc. while AA or UAL can only fly from ORD to YYZ, but not YSB, YQT or YHM.

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6482 times:



Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
while AA or UAL can only fly from ORD to YYZ, but not YSB, YQT or YHM.

Huh?

U.S. carriers can fly to any airport they want in Canada. It's just that only the major ones have pre-clearing for U.S. customs/immigration.



a.
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 946 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6431 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
just that only the major ones have pre-clearing for U.S. customs/immigration.

Exactly the point - it does not make any sense for US carriers to fly anywhere where there is no border crossing set up as those flights would have to originate and conclude in international terminals. Besides I thought that US border pre-clearing was a requirement.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24793 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6430 times:

I don't understand your argument. US carriers and Canadian carriers can both serve exactly the same transborder markets if they choose to do so. There are no transborder markets that a Canadian carrier can operate that a U.S. carrier cannot. Please explain your point again.

Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
So Air Canada can fly and get some feeder traffic from MKE, BUF, BDL, IND etc. while AA or UAL can only fly from ORD to YYZ, but not YSB, YQT or YHM.

Why couldn't UA fly to YQT (Thunder Bay, Ontario) if they wanted to do so? NW operates a couple of daily flights MSP-YQT and has been doing so for years (operated by Mesaba Saab 340s).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
U.S. carriers can fly to any airport they want in Canada.

Only if it has Canadian customs/immigration facilities. And that's not unique to U.S. carriers. The same thing applies to Canadian carriers. Again, I fail to see the original poster's point.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6409 times:



Quoting WROORD (Reply 2):
Exactly the point - it does not make any sense for US carriers to fly anywhere where there is no border crossing set up as those flights would have to originate and conclude in international terminals

.Take a look at the route networks of U.S. carriers to Canada.

Continental flies to Moncton and St. John's.

Northwest flies to Charlottetown, Regina and Thunder Bay.

Alaska flies to Kelowna and Victoria.

Those are just some examples from the top of my head, there are plenty more. Pre-clearing is not a requirement.



a.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21499 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6398 times:



Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
AA or UAL can only fly from ORD to YYZ, but not YSB, YQT or YHM.

Not UA or AA, but NW does fly to YQT from MSP. There's no reason that UA or AA couldn't if they wanted to.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 2):
Exactly the point - it does not make any sense for US carriers to fly anywhere where there is no border crossing set up as those flights would have to originate and conclude in international terminals.

And yet they do. UA flies to Saskatoon, DL flies to Cranbrook, etc. If the market is there, they can fly it. You'll notice that AC isn't flying to the US from those places.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 2):
Besides I thought that US border pre-clearing was a requirement.

It isn't.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6378 times:



Quoting WROORD (Reply 2):
Exactly the point - it does not make any sense for US carriers to fly anywhere where there is no border crossing set up as those flights would have to originate and conclude in international terminals.

I think you're mixing up the *US* customs pre-clearance than some Canadian airports have, with the *Canadian* clearance that essentially all Canadian airports have.

Anyone flying from outside Canada into Canada (US, Canadian, or other carrier) can fly to any airport with international capability (which is most of them). It just means there are Canadian customs folks there, which is true even for many very small airports, and all of the large ones.

If you're flying *out* of Canada to the US, you can pre-clear US customs at some large airports. This applies whether the carrier is Canadian or US. This means you can arrive at a domestic terminal in the US, rather than going to the international terminal on US arrival.

The procedures in either direction are completely the same regardless of the flag of the carrier.

Tom.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24793 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6365 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
Quoting WROORD (Reply 2):
Besides I thought that US border pre-clearing was a requirement.

It isn't.

Only 8 Canadian airports have U.S. customs/immigration pre-clearance (YVR/YYC/YEG/YWG/YYZ/YOW/YUL/YHZ). But there are at least twice that many cities in Canada with transborder service, and almost all transborder service to the smaller cities in Canada is operated by U.S.carriers, not Canadian carriers.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3034 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6231 times:



Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
MKE, BUF, BDL, IND

AC doesn't fly to BUF, they only fly to ALB,ROC,HPN,LGA,and JFK in NY



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24793 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6221 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 8):
Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
MKE, BUF, BDL, IND

AC doesn't fly to BUF, they only fly to ALB,ROC,HPN,LGA,and JFK in NY

AC no longer has any flights to JFK. They moved their JFK-YYC and JFK-YVR flights to EWR a couple of months ago. They were AC's only remaining JFK flights.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6145 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 8):
AC doesn't fly to BUF,

I just flew in BUF 2 days ago and saw AC (CRJ I think)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24793 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6071 times:



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 8):
AC doesn't fly to BUF,

I just flew in BUF 2 days ago and saw AC (CRJ I think)

Possibly a diversion or charter. AC has no scheduled service to BUF.


User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Porter seems to be doing quite well with trans-border flights from YTZ - despite the fact that YTZ has no US customs/immigration pre-clearance facilities.

User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5968 times:

I think that US carriers can fly to any city in Canada as long as that they can staff the border guards that are needed. When Delta announced SLC-YXC, they were quick to hire border guards even though they are only needed once a week. The US carriers here at YYC seem to be doing all right but I guess with everywhere else it could always be better.

User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5915 times:



Quoting WROORD (Reply 2):
Exactly the point - it does not make any sense for US carriers to fly anywhere where there is no border crossing set up as those flights would have to originate and conclude in international terminals. Besides I thought that US border pre-clearing was a requirement.

I don't know what you are talking about. Where U.S. flights fly into Canada there are always Canada Customs agents to clear the planes at those airports. In Canada we don't have specific terminals specified for international flights. At YYZ international flights originate at the same terminals as domestic flights. There is no requirement for pre-clearing customs in Canada. It only happens at the major airports so the flights are considered domestic flights when entering the U.S.

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 13):
I think that US carriers can fly to any city in Canada as long as that they can staff the border guards that are needed. When Delta announced SLC-YXC, they were quick to hire border guards even though they are only needed once a week. The US carriers here at YYC seem to be doing all right but I guess with everywhere else it could always be better.

There are no boarder guards at airports in Canada or the U.S. I think you are getting them confused with CPB and TSA in the U.S. In Canada we have the Canadian Boarder Service Agency at our borders and Canadian Immigration at our airports.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2844 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5879 times:

If anything, Canadian airlines are at a disadvantage! Indeed, US carriers can pull feed from the densely populated Eastern Seaboard, the South, the Midwest, and the West (depending on where they are flying to and from, of course). The Canadian airlines have limited onward feed given Canada's small size and majority population clustered in just a few regions such as southern Ontario, southern Quebec, and Southwestern B.C. When flying ORD-YVR, for instance, UA can get pax from BOS, LGA, PHL, DCA, ATL, MIA, etc. AC can only get pax from interior B.C. cities. I'd say the American carriers have the clear advantage in most cases.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5861 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 14):
In Canada we don't have specific terminals specified for international flights.

We do at some airports. Vancouver is done this way (three actually...domestic, US, and international), and I think Toronto might be as well.

Tom.


User currently offlineAcfa From Canada, joined Feb 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5825 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 14):
There are no boarder guards at airports in Canada or the U.S. I think you are getting them confused with CPB and TSA in the U.S. In Canada we have the Canadian Boarder Service Agency at our borders and Canadian Immigration at our airports.

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at here. Canadian airports with customs service are staffed by both Canada Border Services Agency and Citizenship & Immigration Canada.

Airport security like TSA or CATSA, are not border guards.


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5541 times:



Quoting Acfa (Reply 17):
Airport security like TSA or CATSA, are not border guards.






That is what I meant but I did not know if we had boarder security at airports or just the CBSA at our airports as most airports' security is handled by the local police service for the city that the airport is in.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 16):
We do at some airports. Vancouver is done this way (three actually...domestic, US, and international), and I think Toronto might be as well.

Actually at Toronto with the two terminals T-3 has the U.S. Immigration and customs agents to clear the passengers so they can be treated as domestic passengers upon arrival at their US destination. T-1 has the same but there is a satellite terminal where certain flights depart from, the passengers once clear customs take a bus to it.

International passengers can avoid going through Canadian customs and go through U.S. Immigration and customs when they transfer from their overseas flights and continue on to the states.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1606 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5459 times:

I believe the OP was presuming that US carriers could be at a disadvantage because flying from a non-preclearance airport in Canada to their US hubs would result in the passengers on such flights being taken to an international arrivals area rather than arriving like any other domestic flight (as flights from preclearance airports do).

However, at the majority of hubs in the US, this isn't a significant issue. In most US airports, there isn't a specific "international terminal," but rather international gates are intermingled with domestic gates. At an airport such as DTW (as a random example since NW operates YXU-DTW), an inbound passenger from YXU deplanes at an international gate, goes through customs/immigration, then heads upstairs within the same terminal (actually still in the sterile area) for onward connections on NW.

ORD is the significant exception to this rule, with all non-preclearance arrivals going into Terminal 5, though even in that case the international departures from AA, IB, LH, NH, and UA operate from the domestic gates (I'm guessing that ORD was the airport in mind in the OP). On a route such as YQB-ORD, UA's inbound ORD passengers are forced to deplane at T5 and go through customs/immigration, then exit the sterile area and ride the tram to T1 before reclearing security for connections on UA. This really is not a disadvantage given that an inbound flier on YQB-ORD would be forced to go through the same motions if they had arrived on AC or WS.

Most likely, as mentioned by SurfandSnow, the Canadian carriers might be at a slight disadvantage on these types of routes. Aside from other star alliance hubs, AC would generally be competing on routes between small Canadian cities and larger American cities without the benefit of a hub on either end, relying almost entirely on local traffic, while an American carrier would likely be competing from its hub. YQT-MSP is viable for NW largely because they can connect YQT to the states/world through their MSP hub, whereas AC would basically be attempting to capture only local traffic without significant connections on either end.


User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5395 times:

Speaking of US-Canada, isn't there some kind of a restriction where American carriers can't fly pax on a routing like YYZ-ORD-YVR and Canadian airlines can't fly pax on routing like LGA-YYZ-LAX ???

If this is in fact true, why do they have this restriction ??? The American carriers would of course steal an amazing amount of passengers from the Canadian carriers by routing them through their hubs like DTW, ORD, MSP etc. But then on the other hand an airport like YYZ could in effect become a massive US domestic hub. Whatever Canadian passengers the Canandian airlines would lose to the American airlines, they would surely be able to steal just as many American pax back off the American carriers.


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1606 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5332 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Reply 20):

If this is in fact true, why do they have this restriction ??? The American carriers would of course steal an amazing amount of passengers from the Canadian carriers by routing them through their hubs like DTW, ORD, MSP etc. But then on the other hand an airport like YYZ could in effect become a massive US domestic hub. Whatever Canadian passengers the Canandian airlines would lose to the American airlines, they would surely be able to steal just as many American pax back off the American carriers.

That would essentially be cabotage and is not limited to just the USA and Canada. It is essentially unheard of for any country to allow domestic travelers to be carried by a carrier flying under the flag of a different country. Despite the intermediate ORD stop, it would essentially be the same as allowing UA/AA to fly non-stop YVR-YYZ in terms of taking revenue away from a Canadian carrier.

While AC probably could capture some USA-Canada-USA traffic, they would never be able to bring in as much revenue with those passengers as they lose to US majors flying Canada-USA-Canada. Keep in mind that the introduction of AC (and to a lesser extent, WS and PD) as competitors within the USA would have some effect, but they would have difficulty stealing traffic on many routes against multiple non-stop and shorter one-stop flights on US carriers. While AC could offer convenient connections on MSP-YYZ-NYC traffic, for example, they have to take that traffic away from existing services by NW/DL and CO, not to mention compete with relatively easy connections offered through ORD/MDW by AA, UA, and WN as well as through MKE on YX and FL and even PHL on US.

However, the change from only 2 competitors to as many as 7 or 8 competitors on many major intra-Canadian routes would be huge. Look at a route like YYZ-YVR, which is currently split between AC and WS with non-stop service. Suddenly, US carriers would flood the market with connecting options (such as UA @ ORD/DEN, NW/DL @ MSP, and even less direct options like AA @ DFW, DL @ ATL, CO @ IAH, US @ PHL, etc.). This detrimental effect is what the laws are protecting against.


User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5270 times:



Quoting Steex (Reply 21):
While AC probably could capture some USA-Canada-USA traffic, they would never be able to bring in as much revenue with those passengers as they lose to US majors flying Canada-USA-Canada.

This is what I assumed was the case, that the restriction is there to protect the Canadian carriers, and not the other way around.


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1606 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5255 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Reply 22):
This is what I assumed was the case, that the restriction is there to protect the Canadian carriers, and not the other way around.

That may well be the way it would work out in this case, but the restriction is really in place in countries around the world to protect ALL home country carriers. While US carriers might be able to see some benefit from competing for intra-Canadian traffic, it would not be even close to worth the trade-off of allowing other carriers to compete for intra-USA traffic.


User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

Back in December, I needed to travel on way YEG-YYZ around Dec 19 or so. As you can imagine tickets were soooo expensive as I was booking my flight last minute...Sure enough, I got on Orbitz and picked up a ticket for 400 CAD YEG-ORD-YYZ all flights on United.

However, United.ca or United.com would not sell you this ticket.


Anywho, sometimes it's cheaper flying through the US while doing an Intra Canada journey


25 Viscount724 : Different areas of the same terminals, not different terminals. For example, at YYZ, the two terminals (T1 and T3) both handle domestic, transborder
26 Pnwtraveler : American government/carriers don't want Air Canada, WestJet, Aeromexico or Mexicana (just to name a few) flying into a US City picking up travelers a
27 Thestooges : I don't much about 3rd, 4th and 5th freedom rights etc. but I think there's a difference between an airline like Air Canada flying passengers EWR-YYZ
28 Post contains links Viscount724 : That may be true for some carriers, but it's certainly not the U.S.government's position. The 2005 Canada-USA Open Skies agreement permits exactly wh
29 Pnwtraveler : Correct, I was think of AC flying YYZ-LAX-HNL or something like that. The problem with the third country provision in the bilateral is you have to pr
30 SLCUT2777 : For example a Canadian charter carrier (Transat, SkyService) can fly to a U.S. airport and pick-up passengers on the way to the Caribbean or Mexico i
31 Steex : This route would not qualify, though, since LAX and HNL are both US destinations. What the agreement would allow is something like YYZ-LAX-SYD, with
32 Thestooges : This is interesting, as you're actually saying that it's the Canadians who want the open skies and the Americans who are effectively protecting thems
33 Viscount724 : St. John's (YYT) does not have precelarance. The other 7 do, plus YOW.
34 YYZA330 : US pre clear only opens at a set time in YYZ. Any flight leaving very early are set to post clear in the USA. I think (and don't quote me) US pre clea
35 Pnwtraveler : As you point out that AC wants access, however it might be news to some on ANet that AC does not equal Canadians. Nor does AC equal the Canadian gove
36 Tdscanuck : How would this be a disadvantage for the US carrier? If it's a non-preclearance airport, the Canadian carrier is in the same boat. Tom.
37 Sebring : Speaking of US-Canada, isn't there some kind of a restriction where American carriers can't fly pax on a routing like YYZ-ORD-YVR and Canadian airlin
38 OP3000 : I think the premise of this thread is incorrect, as has already been said. IMO the biggest advantage the Canadian carriers have is their internal duop
39 EwRkId : Isnt YUL also? When I flew out, I departed from the Transborder Section and I know there the Int'l jetty and the domestic departures area....right??
40 Steex : I don't know if this was directed at me in particular (since it does quote me), but we are in agreement...the remainder of my post went on to explain
41 Thestooges : Actually I asked a question that I really had no idea what the answer was. . . specifically this one Someone gave me this response . . . Seeing that
42 Thestooges : Once again, to clear things up . . . Pnwtraveller, you said this . . . and in response to that, I said this . . . and then you said . . . What ?!?!? I
43 YYZYYT : I think I see the point the OP is trying to make - while both are in the same boat, is there an advantage to the carrier who happens to have a hub at
44 Goaliemn : They do have to land at a US Airport with some customs presence. This is, just in case, there is someone on the plane that shouldn't have gotten on.
45 Yegbey01 : I think it was Alaska that wanted to fly YVR to Orange County or Ontario, CA and the flights were then cancelled
46 BA : It was to Orange County. Ontario has a U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) presence so it wouldn't have been a problem. Orange County will soon
47 GhYHZ : Really? Do LGA and DCA have Customs & Border Protection? Numerous flights a day from YYZ, YUL & YOW. There’s also YHZ-LGA service on AC.
48 BA : Yes, they have a CBP presence although they don't have an FIS facility.
49 AirNZ : I think you are confused as to the difference between Immigration and Customs (seemingly very common on a.net!)......Customs of any country have noth
50 Viscount724 : The U.S. government department you deal with when entering the country is called Customs & Border Protection (CBP). You don't deal with 2 different d
51 WROORD : Thank you to everyone for responding. Please keep in mind that I asked a question asking for your opinion. Some treated it like a definate statement t
52 BA : I think you are still confused. You keep stating that because 8 airports in Canada have U.S. border preclearance that somehow Canadian carriers have
53 Viscount724 : I would also guess that at least 90% (possibly more) of all Canada-U.S. airline passengers originate (or connect via) one of the 8 Canadian airports
54 Briboy : Not just Canadian / USA carriers. LAN which operates YYZ - JFK - SCL with local traffic rights between YYZ and JFK. US pre-clearance happens in YYZ.
55 AirframeAS : Incorrect... QX does that.
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