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UA Diverts To MIA , Conflict Pilot Vs Steward.  
User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1292 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46377 times:

What a strange reason to do something this drastic, pilot diverts to MIA after conflict with one of the fight attendants.


I feel he (the pilot) will have to give some solid reasons to explain that one.

[edit post]
349 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4578 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46312 times:

Probably both or at least one of them were on a powertrip or having the communication skills of a Rottweiler.. I hope and expect at least one of them gets the boots, both if they had an equal role in letting this go out of hand. Very classy to waste your employers money and image and the time and schedules of your customers.

nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineCityofAthens From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46195 times:

Very interesting story .... but that's about as much as I can say based on the report above which doesn't go into detail; at the end of the day, the Captain is responsible for the safety of the a/c and its occupants.

User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46175 times:

The pilot I believe went over the top in handling this situation to divert a plane to MIA just so they can resolve a conflict is way too much when they could have easily continued to ORD and resolve it there. It costs the company a lot of money and time when they do something like this. The pilot has a lot of explaining to do.

User currently offlineJustPlanes From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 898 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46077 times:

midway through the scheduled 6hr 45min non-stop flight

6:45 from Sao to Chicago... I don't think so... 10 hours I would say...

User currently offlineDLDTW1962 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 45979 times:

Here we go again. More drama with UA.

User currently offlineLevent From France, joined Sep 2004, 1718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 45906 times:

Quoting Arniepie (Thread starter):
after conflict with one of the fight attendants

Was that a Freudian slip?  Smile

User currently offlineSQ_EK_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1812 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 45605 times:

Crew-Resource-Management? I couldn't even imagine that happening at EK.

Keep Discovering
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 45480 times:

In order to win this one, the Captain is going to have to demonstrate why he thought the Flight Attendant was an unreasonable hazard to keep on the plane. It would have to be something along the lines of the FA deliberately disobeying to the point where it caused a hazard, or where the Captain became convinced that the FA was not going to follow instructions in an emergency.

Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1569 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 44985 times:

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
In order to win this one, the Captain is going to have to demonstrate why he thought the Flight Attendant was an unreasonable hazard to keep on the plane. It would have to be something along the lines of the FA deliberately disobeying to the point where it caused a hazard, or where the Captain became convinced that the FA was not going to follow instructions in an emergency.

The Captain had plenty of options short of diverting. This should be a case of the Purser being relieved of duty INFLIGHT and continuing. According to the number of flight attendants on board there was adequate staffing to allow the purser to be taken out of the loop and continuing on. Armchair review makes this appear to be some extremely poor decision making by the Captain.

User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4503 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 44752 times:

Wow, everyone's crucifying the captain without all the facts.

There has to be more to this story than meets the eye.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
Armchair review makes this appear to be some extremely poor decision making by the Captain.

You got all of that out of a few small summary paragraphs by a journalist?? I'm surprised to see this coming from you.

I do not tolerate insubordination from my employees; why should the CA tolerate it from his crew? How do we know the FA wasn't belligerent, causing a commotion on the airplane?

Too many unanswered questions to draw any sort of conclusion at this moment. Anything else would be irresponsible.

I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineDelta2058 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 44466 times:

Captain could just lock the cockpit door and say "Nyah, nyah...you can't come in." Oh, wait, that is probably how it started.

Smooth seas do not make skilled sailors.
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 44457 times:

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
The Captain had plenty of options short of diverting. This should be a case of the Purser being relieved of duty INFLIGHT and continuing.

Perhaps this was not practical, the article does not give enough information to make this determination.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
Armchair review makes this appear to be some extremely poor decision making by the Captain.

Armchair review is frequently wrong, further the Captain's decision must be reviewed in the light of circumstances, resources, and time available. It is no good to take days or weeks to arrive at a different decision after consulting a panel of experts.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 10):
Wow, everyone's crucifying the captain without all the facts.

I don't think he is being crucified by most, but he did take rather drastic measures to resolve a situation, so it is fair to ask why and how he came to this decision. The FA might have been completely unmanageable and the Captain may have made a tough but correct decision. Or it could be a personal conflict that both parties allowed to escalate too far.

Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 4283 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 44350 times:

End of the day the captain has the final word in the air, but he will have to justify it on the ground. !!!
Seems that two egos clashed and it went too far in the heat of the moment.
Surely if the flight attendant is removed from duty by the captains authority, that person sits it out for the rest of the flight, and that's it.
To divert and off load suggests the captain was fearful of something, heaven knows what.  Confused

you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 43489 times:

Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 7):
Crew-Resource-Management? I couldn't even imagine that happening at EK.

Yeah wow I was thinking CLR failed here when I saw your post. But on the same token it also worked since he used all his resources (maybe) and came up with the conclusion that MIA was the best choice. Should be interesting to see this pan out.

User currently offlineTallguy14 From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 43322 times:

So does anyone have the details? Let's get the nitty-gritty. And flight attendants for US carriers haven't been called "stewards" for almost 30 years.

User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 43277 times:

Obvious there is far more to the story than what is in the article....

As far as 'ego's' remember that the Captain has had thousands of hours in the air in the left seat in order to run a longhaul 767 such as this...he has seen all types of crews and all types of incidents and was certainly aware of the post flight investigation that would occur. He also carries the safey of the flight on his shoulders and I would be quite hesitant to think of this as any type of snap decision or personal conflict.

As to what could cause this...I think the word 'safety' has to be considered...diversions are safety of flight actions...health or maintenance or crew time or security. The captain obviously felt that the safety of this flight necessitated the removal of the purser.

What we don't know is what this incident was about...since it involved cabin crew one could suspect that it was an incident that began in the cabin....either with pax or with other members of the flight att staff. The fact that the story is not on the front page of a lot of papers suggests that the incident may have been kept among employees and that customers may not have been aware of the details.

One of the more interesting facts is that only the purser deplaned...not a customer...and no other member of the cabin crew...members of the same union. As the ground time was short and MIA is no longer a crew base for United it seems fairly clear that the flight continued on with the remaining inflight crew.

Will members of A.net ever know the full story? Probably not right away. Do members of the UA flight crew community know the story already...probably.

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4578 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 43141 times:

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 10):
Wow, everyone's crucifying the captain without all the facts

 talktothehand  In my first reaction I said ONE of them has failed miserably here and should loose his job, I never pinpointed the captain. What if the F/A behaved in a way endangering the plane and passengers then it has been a good decision.

nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4539 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 43140 times:

The pilot is in command but he will have to answer to his employer! From a pure monetary standpoint, this diversion will probably cost UA well in-excess of $10k, and that's assuming no passenger compensations were paid out because of it.

It would have to be something very serious, in my opinion, for a pilot to divert a flight due to any conflict with his crew. Heck, it has to be quite serious to divert for a passenger situation. For his sake, I hope he had his ducks in a row before deciding to let this man off in MIA! It's all very embarrasing for UA, of course, who doesn't need this right now. Maybe the purser was playing "United Breaks Guitars" over the PA and wouldn't stop when commanded to do so?

None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlinePanova98 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 42922 times:

Just great!

Now, before boarding my flight and checking out my fellow passengers for signs of, well, strangeness, I have to look at the crew and make some sort of determination as to whether they seem to be on speaking terms with each other and whether my flight may at risk for an unscheduled stop.

Maybe that's why so many UA captains want to silence channel 9. All those family disputes we might overhear. Just hope there was no governor or other politician onboard returning from some "official" business trip down there to the extent his/her cover may have been blown.

User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3383 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 42767 times:

I know the Captain must make difficult decisions, but I can't even imagine a situation where a member of the airline's OWN crew could become a threat to safety, unless that person just totally went postal & started throwing things, or something.

I mean, a disagreement is not a reason to divert an aircraft. But, hopefully, we'll get the full story. This just sounds fishy to me.

Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 42560 times:

I checked the UA F/A's MEC site, they still don't have anything posted on there about the incident...


User currently offlineNASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 42463 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 20):
but I can't even imagine a situation where a member of the airline's OWN crew could become a threat to safety, unless that person just totally went postal & started throwing things, or something.

Well, there was that Compass incident a while back where the FA set fire to the lav in order to get out of his trip. Yowzaz.

Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 42351 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
Probably both or at least one of them were on a powertrip or having the communication skills of a Rottweiler.

People with the communication skills of a Rottweiler are not allowed to enter ATPL training, at least not here in the Netherlands.
Next to that, you should expect a 767 captain having fairly enough experience in dealing with flight attendants.  Big grin  duck 

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
Armchair review makes this appear to be some extremely poor decision making by the Captain.

The armchair-part exactly states that this review has absolutely no value, however:

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
Armchair review is frequently wrong, further the Captain's decision must be reviewed in the light of circumstances, resources, and time available. It is no good to take days or weeks to arrive at a different decision after consulting a panel of experts.

the problem is most experts looking at this situations afterwards, are sitting in armchairs too..

Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 42296 times:

There will probably be allot of witnesses around to get the real truth out of what exactly happened.

25 Abrelosojos : = Now now ... EK does not have the best record of treating most of their FA's right ... and I shudder to think what would happen if a EK crew challen
26 DescendVia : Just pulled up the flight loft. Said person is actually female and they continued on to ORD with 9 (max staffing for North American flights on the 67I
27 Boeing747_600 : Capt or FA?
28 Evanbu : Oh my gosh, a captain on a power trip? No way! (Note the sarcasm) On the other hand... He/She (the flight attendant) was probably some senior dinosaur
29 DescendVia : The purser...........
30 Lowrider : Anyone worthy of the mantle of expert should know how to conduct a proper evaluation.
31 JBirdAV8r : I wasn't singling you out! No worries...
32 UnitedFA07 : Don't hang the pilot, don't hang the flight attendant. Maybe two A type personalities, but we all know what GOD complexes some pilots can have too(not
33 Jamake1 : This is all I am going to say about this incident: The Purser of flight 842 was female. The Captain of the flight wanted the general declaration so he
34 Readytotaxi : Oopps !
35 Dragon6172 : Geez, if this is the case sounds like someone had some Cheerios with yellow milk and couldn't get over themselves.
36 UnitedFA07 : If reply 33 is closest to the truth....GOD complex!!!
37 SeeTheWorld : Wow! If that's a genearlly accurate account, then another extended sick leave might be appropriate.
38 SW733 : We have very little info, so who knows. Remember the jumpseat FedEx employee on that incident some years back who tried to kill the crew and himself?
39 SeeTheWorld : Actually, if the account above is mostly true, then we have a pretty good idea of which of the two over-reacted. Without that one post, we know nothi
40 Manfredj : No real need to speculate here guys. As far as we know it should be handled that the FA was a threat until proved otherwise. There are no "power trip
41 SQ_EK_freak : Oh no I meant this would never happen on EK because neither would dare to divert the aircraft like that. Their "resignations" would be waiting for th
42 SeeTheWorld : I completely disagree. This is a discussion thread and we have a post here that provides us with information that has some details from someone who a
43 Qantas777 : I hope they deduct the cost of the diversion out of the captains pay. Issue could have been resolved in ORD
44 KL911 : Huh?? How you call stewards and stewardesses then? What an ignorant comment.
45 SeeTheWorld : In the U.S. the words steward and stewardess for flight attendants are considered prejorative. That's all the poster meant.
46 Donindc : It's not an ignorant comment. It's true. At least in the US, the terms Steward and Stewardess have a dated and somewhat demeaning connotation that im
47 DescendVia : Or the one where a "lady of the night" hijacked the crew bus in Rio till the Cap. would pay his "bill." How long was "extended." Like was he able to
48 ROSWELL41 : I think most people on this forum need to take a step back and realize that you have no idea what goes into diverting an airline flight. Sure, the cap
49 SeeTheWorld : These are the types of responses that I'm getting sick and tired of. If we always waited to see what ALL THE FACTS WERE, we wouldn't have any discuss
50 TXJim : That's a pretty broad statement. Care to explain how, out of thousand of human beings, no member of this set could EVER possess an over-inflated ego?
51 BrouAviation : Are you actually flying as a captain with an airline? If yes, don't read my question below, if not: Do you have any right to talk about 'damn good an
52 Manfredj : This forum needs just as many skeptics as it does optimists....that's precisely what makes it work. I'm sure you understand what happens when politic
53 SeeTheWorld : This is complete hogwash; and I don't believe based on what I've read, especially from the post of the person above who obviously is a somewhat "in t
54 Sbworcs : I think we CAN question decisions of Captains and hold them to account for their actions. Yes they are ultimately in charge of the aircraft - it does
55 Richierich : Yes, except this one might not include pay. Of course, I'm sure the union will protect this guy too all ends and he'll be paid during his leave anywa
56 CO767FA : Is the Captain not subject to this possibility?
57 Saab2000 : That captain is the commander of the flight and the in-flight security coordinator. And he/she is also the final responsibility for the safe operatio
58 Max Q : Not strange at all. The Captains authority is absolute, that extends to everyone on his or her Aircraft. If this individual was refusing to obey the C
59 SeeTheWorld : That may be so, but that doesn't mean that he can do anything he wants, nor does it mean that he made a sound decision. Again, and if you don't agree
60 Sbworcs : Please see below - it would seem that UA does not appear to agree with you?
61 2H4 : I've got a question. It sounds as though the captain ordered the purser to open the cockpit door without having another flight attendant present. Doi
62 Hiflyer : FYI there is a possibility that this crew...front and back end...flew down to South America together...did the turn...and flew back together as a pair
63 IAHERJ : Well said. Until we hear otherwise, it sounds like the CA might have overreacted a bit(actually a lot). A personality conflict should never reach the
64 WNCrew : Interesting, given that when FA's take the very same action with pax (who either are disobedient or otherwise) and have them removed form the flight
65 Justlump : I think attitudes like this are part of the problem. Even though the Captain has ultimate command over his aircraft, FAs are not 'his' employees. Som
66 Bennett123 : Not sure what a general declaration is?. Is the timing of it's signature critical?. Is there limits on the Captain's discretion on is his/her power un
67 Farzan : My question, as a guy sitting in the back of the plane, is whether UA took the right decision in letting the CA continue to ORD as commander, after t
68 Qqflyboy : Since some on here think captains don't engage in power trips, I'll share this story: I'll never forget an incident when I was still an agent where a
69 WNCrew : At the carriers where I've been a FA, our policies state that if the CA's orders deviate from FAR's or Company Policy we are to comply with the CA's o
70 FLFlyGuy : Can everyone step back and get real here? Of course the Capain has the ultimate authority for (as was expressed in an earlier post) THE SAFE OPERATION
71 MillwallSean : Sometimes I am amazed. This captain here and this captain there. The big bosses are at HQ. They decide who is right and who is wrong. Their verdict is
72 IAHERJ : Very well said, and it came from an excellent source.
73 CO767FA : Whose to say a Captain doesn't go off the deep end? Please - we can voice our opinions freely - you don't have like or read them.
74 ROSWELL41 : With all due respect, you have not idea what would be an appropriate reason to divert a flight. Saab2000 and myself have years of airline experience
75 Post contains images Falcon84 : They're called Flight Attendants. This is the only "Steward" I'm aware of:
76 WNCrew : Is there even a slight chance that the CA was wrong? Made a bad decision and was just plain WRONG? Is that possible?
77 IAHERJ : Years of experience? You are listed as being 21-25 years old. Let me guess, you are a commuter first officer? Do you really need to lambast a forum m
78 ROSWELL41 : Of course it is possible that the captain acted in the wrong. This would be difficult to prove however because the FAA views any captain's decision t
79 Adools : I'm also interested in what this document is and how it is relevant to the flight when the flight is half finished? Is this a document that becomes r
80 ROSWELL41 : Instead of sinking to personal attacks on me, why don't we focus on the facts being discussed. Since you claim to be an experienced airline crewmembe
81 WNCrew : I'm also shocked at how many are equally willing to throw the Purser under the bus. If he/she is truly a very senior Purser I can't imagine their own
82 ROSWELL41 : I echo your sentiments. 99.9% of flight and cabin crewmembers are the utmost safety professionals. We will have to wait until we know the facts of th
83 Csavel : Well put. An airline captain != Kim Jong Il. I think there is more to the back story of *these two people*. Not to engage in "mile high club" cliches
84 Post contains images OPNLguy : Based only upon what's been said here and assuming it occured as stated, the situation sounds more worthy of a written irregularity report on arrival
85 Blackbird1331 : Can the FA fly the plane? The PIC makes the decisions, right or wrong, let him live with it.
86 FLFlyGuy : The General Declaration is a form that is required for all international arrivals. (Also, mysteriously, for the US Virgin Islands...go figure). It is
87 Farzan : Years of experience? So young and you already learned that the "cargo" back there is a pest polluting to your empire with their bloody existence. But
88 ROSWELL41 : I've never said any of what you are insinuating. I treat all customers with the respect they deserve. I only ask that they treat their crewmembers in
89 TonyBurr : Let's see which Union wins this argument !
90 Lincoln : I'm coming in a little late here.... but one question I have that I don't see naswered here is... Does UA policy or CFR/federal law require two fligh
91 IAHERJ : Will not be like that. The union will not be able to back up this CA if the situation on that flight did not warrant his decision to divert. He will p
92 DescendVia : I'd like to call myself one plus at least 4 others I know who have ties to the company have also posted, including the one who posted word from the t
93 Chgoflyer : How long until ALPHA spins this to where its really Tiltons fault. How much did that diversion cost? He should be presented a bill.
94 Post contains images Theredbaron : wasnt this guy the one who tried to start an airline with Planes with meat wings? and failed... Now back to topic. Say what you want but clearly this
95 DL Widget Head : Aside from the whole who's right and wrong debate, this unfortunate tussle probably cost UA a lot. They may have had to take on more fuel in MIA and t
96 AirframeAS : Did the FA get arrested for interfering with crewmembers?
97 Chgoflyer : I looked on the Miami Herald.com and a few other news sites in Dade Co- no mention of any arrest.
98 DocLightning : So if a captain chooses to do something horribly dangerous, like not extending the gear prior to landing, his authority should not be questioned. Tha
99 DescendVia : Not much if any. (Going a bit tecy) Don't have the flight papers in front of me but I would assume the flight was on a re-dispatch FPF (opspec B044).
100 Max Q : Nothing said here alters the fact that the Captain is the ultimate authority over the operation of the Aircraft and all passengers and crewmembers abo
101 UnitedFA07 : Similar to what was said in reply 70, but I would say they were probably finishing FA breaks and getting ready for the breakfast services. Depending o
102 Qantas767 : No matter who is proved to be right or wrong, the one thing that is certain is that there has been a significant failing in the CRM process. No incide
103 B737100 : I believe I'm the first to bring up that a similar diversion happened back in the 70's. UA 727 routing was SAN/SEA nonstop and the lead F/A forgot to
104 Hiflyer : The divert to MIA instead of MCO was a far better choice as MIA Customs is 24/7....and UA is located on a Customs concourse...and that concourse start
105 TravelExec : Ah yes - the old chestnut raises its head again... PC upside down and on steroids again... By the way, Flight Attendants for US carriers have been ca
106 Vfw614 : A very early contribution to this thread - which does not appear in any way to convey a fabricated story - from someone with apparent inside knowledge
107 B707forever : Oh, Oh. A koo-koo Captain. I wonder what the medical was all about? Sounds like the F/O handled it well, trying to get MCO but appeasing the Capt. Wha
108 GT4EZY : This differs around the world. Whilst being called a steward/stewardess in the US is seen as some sort of insult, the Europe (and certainly in the UK
109 RL757PVD : They were coming from ORD...
110 AirNZ : You're surely joking, right?
111 AAL0616 : Yes, indeed. Or the reverse: read, sign and set the thing aside early in the trip for submission upon arrival so it is out of the way and not a distr
112 Hiflyer : No they were not. The article linked in the OP clearly states GRU-ORD.
113 SeeTheWorld : Excuse me sir, but just because I am not a pilot or a f/a doesn't mean I can't reasonably comment on this issue. I have worked in the airline industr
114 SeeTheWorld : AND, if the f/a had had a mental breakdown, I suspect we would have heard that by now. In fact, based on the information we have, it's more likely th
115 TravelExec : Wouldn't be the first time... we had a diversion to SNN recently of a t/a filght because of one...
116 SeeTheWorld : You attacked me personally, and now you're crying foul?!?! You clearly have a lot to learn if you think the only people who are worthy of a comment o
117 Giopan1975 : I apologise if this has been already answered, but anybody knows what was told to the passengers as an official reason for the diversion?
118 NWAESC : Actually, he did it on two separate occasions...
119 ROSWELL41 : I agree, we'll see what the facts of this situation are and until then all we can do is continue to speculate.
120 ROSWELL41 : The reply you quoted was in response to IAHERJ's comments towards me. As an industry veteran, surely you know that the media rarely gets the facts ri
121 Manfredj : Followed by: Then: If I can make a comment, you seem to be the one sparking the fire and adding the fuel. You ask us to be open minded, then attack e
122 Nws2002 : I know I'm coming in way late on this, but I'm sure the situation is not as simple as was outlined above. I'm a FA and normally defend us, but I'm sur
123 Mcdu : An update of current information. The FA has been returned to the line and will be flying her normal schedule. The Captain is not allowed to fly and i
124 Max Q : Unfortunately this is a constant problem with the shuffle we have to do now, as Pilots when we need to go to the bathroom. Most Flight Attendants are
125 Giopan1975 : You must be kidding!!! I havent realised that pilots have lost so much of their credibility with all of this fly-by-wire stuff maybe it is normal to
126 Nws2002 : It is your responsibility to plan ahead and let us know in sufficient time. Sure there will be occasional situations where a pilot "must go now", but
127 Nws2002 : That is the type of attitude that gave us Tenerife. The captain does have final authority, but most also know when it is prudent to use that authorit
128 Mcdu : There is no change in the hierarchy. With command comes responsibility and the proper use of the authority that comes with the job. The Captain is st
129 Max Q : It's a real shame there sometimes is such acrimony between the front and back end. There is no need for it. Politeness and respect go a long way, whe
130 Nws2002 : I am aware that safety of flight is our number one priority. My point is that it is your responsibility to plan ahead and make sure your "physiologic
131 Prebennorholm : It is almost automatically assumed that the "problem" was between the offloaded FA and the captain. That's not necessarily so. It is probably unlikely
132 Adools : Thanks! Very informative.
133 GT4EZY : There does seem to be a certain amount of "god" like attitudes from certain pilots on the forum. As a crew, we are a team. The Captain, of course, is
134 Mpdpilot : I am just curious how you plan for a bathroom break. As a pilot I can think of a couple of reasons why the pilot might need to deside on this at last
135 MASTYC : You give a good 10-15 minute window so that whatever needs to get done, gets done. It's not like anyone asked to make a pee schedule before the fligh
136 Max Q : Very well said. In the past my FO and myself have given plenty of notice that we need to go back and have had to wait so long for the Flight Attendan
137 AirmaleJUM : It's Flight (LOF) not flight loft. Flight "List Of Flight Attendants" FLTLOF. Not LOFT.
138 DescendVia : Oops made a typo, had Line Oriented Flight Training on the mind or something.
139 Bellerophon : Nws2002 I know nothing about the incident which started this thread, and I make no comment about it. I wait with interest to learn what happened from
140 MillwallSean : Some pilots seem to forget that they are piloting a company asset and that its rules and regulations stipulated by HQ that governs what he can and can
141 CO767FA : Oh you would think so, but some doink around and try to grab a coffee or coke or food.
142 Olympic472 : Speaking for myself as a passenger I have no problems with interrupting the service for the flight crew. Their needs are important, more so than mine
143 Qantas767 : Mate, I have been in the military for nearly 10 years. Prior to becomming aircrew I was a platoon commander in a combat corps. The ethos in a combat
144 Post contains images Nws2002 : Not sure if you wanted me to reply or not, but here it goes. I work for CO. If you insisted I would assume you had a good reason and follow along. St
145 USAFDO : I wonder which airline in MIA serviced the 767 in the middle of the night since I don't believe UA has any night flights, much less staff on hand to h
146 CO767FA : Thanks, but you are one voice in a million, there are those who will ask if is really necessary to divert for a medical emergency and get all pissy b
147 SHUPirate1 : For what it's worth, the flight landed in Miami at 4:11 AM (Eastern Daylight Time), and departed for Chicago-O'Hare at 5:06 AM (also Eastern Daylight
148 Spacecadet : It used to be exactly the same here. A "steward" was a person in charge of things, namely the cabin area of a flight in this case. An "attendant" was
149 DescendVia : We really have nothing in MIA. I bet the plane parked at either a) our old gates/UAX gates now or b) the planes parked at a remote spot and had air s
150 USAFDO : Spacecadet.....is everyone on here supposed to be impressed with your dissertation on airline terms? Get over it! Talk about something worth talking a
151 Max Q : This is where you lose credibility, the Captain is not just a 'team member' he is by definition and law the leader of the 'team' and the ultimate aut
152 Wukka : Yikes! Really? That doesn't make me feel safe at all. I would much rather you attend to a pilot flying rather than be grabbing the half cup of water
153 CO767FA : So why is it so difficult for a pilot to begin with a request instead of a demand? We all get the "urge" in advance of the "event" and our "equipment
154 WNCrew : I think we all understand doing what HAS to be done as it relates to safety of flight. I have NEVER denied anyone (FA or pilots) a restroom break on t
155 GT4EZY : Very well put.
156 Bellerophon : Nws2002 ...If you insisted I would assume you had a good reason and follow along... Excellent! I'm genuinely pleased you've moderated your position fr
157 Max Q : Just a little reminder for you 'team players' in case you forget. FAR 121.535 Responsibility for operational control: Flag operations. (d) Each pilot
158 ATTart : So what you are saying is that you are not a team player? It is your way or the highway? When you say jump, your crew members should say how high? Yo
159 MillwallSean : Now Max Q report to HQ. HQ sets the guidelines and limits the authority of any flightdeck personnel. This important to keep in mind. Whatever decision
160 ROSWELL41 : Teamwork and captain's authority are not mutually exclusive. 'Bosses' micromanaging things from the ground will not be accepted and in the United Sta
161 Babybus : If I was a passenger the captain would get a good kicking from me too. Unless that is, the FA had gone completely mad and would be a danger to the air
162 Post contains links Ryu2 : An email account from an insider is posted on Flyertalk: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ord-diversion-mia-july-13-a-3.html Fair use excerpt: M
163 PWMRamper : Exactly, if the captain's ordering something that could directly affect the safety of the aircraft and people on board, I think the Purser, or any ot
164 Giopan1975 : First of all this incident is quite a disgrace for company's Houman Resource Department and as far as people selection and monitoring is concerned. S
165 RussianJet : Sounds like it, and that would be precisely the kind of arrogance that seems to have led to this situation. The rules basically say you have total au
166 Sbworcs : Where was the disrespect - he asked for the document (albeit when it was not needed and affecting cabin service) and she gave him the document? Where
167 RussianJet : and also she apparently slid it under the door because there was no other crew available to look out while the flight deck door was to be opened.
168 Giopan1975 : If this mail is true, captain had to ask for the document "now" twice. Regardless of the fact he may be an authoritative jerk he is still the person
169 Kiwiandrew : hmm , if the crew of the KLM flight at Tenerife had shown an unwillingness to follow directions from the captain it is likely that several hundred pe
170 Giopan1975 : Two very different things: Speak up your opinion to the person in charge and even physically intervene if you think safety can be compromised and sho
171 AirNZ : Hmmm! yes, and agreed.......but I wasn't referring to Flight Attendants or Gate Agents so I fail to see your point. Had you actually noted, the poste
172 GT4EZY : Something as mundane as this piece of paperwork is not critical to the aircraft's operation. The F/A was well within her rights to highlight the fact
173 LTBEWR : While this incident will involve an internal (non-publc) review/hearing process involving UA, the pilot, the f/a involved their respective unions, I w
174 Sbworcs : So even if the Captain demands a piece of paper that is not actually needed that minute nor is it relavant to the safety of the flight the Cabin Crew
175 Giopan1975 : I agree, but this kind of answers one would expect to come from a good team player. Apparently, this captain is far from a good teamplayer and seems
176 Kiwiandrew : I am not confused , I am well aware that these are different things , but your post was presented in absolute terms 'no room' , you did not qualify i
177 Vfw614 : Despite what all those who are defending this captain are saying, I would be VERY surprised if United top brass will tolerate his strange behaviour th
178 ATTart : This is the rest of the story from FlyerTalk.. So later, she goes on break and in the middle of her break the f/c girl wakes her up and tells her she'
179 Kiwiandrew : an 'atty' ????
180 ATTart : I am sure he brought with him an attorney.
181 Mercure1 : The outward signs of mental disease become a problem when an employer enters into a period of financial instability. Those with latent tendencies wil
182 Vfw614 : The "atty" bit relates to the F/A, not the captain. Probably not necessary given that everybody at MIA and at ORD is shaking heads about the captain
183 OB1504 : Well, at MIA, UA still has mainline employees, and they use Gates J10, J12, and J14. They're all international, and J12 can take a 763, so I imagine
184 ATTart : OOPs, you are right!!!
185 Mayor : Pilots do tend to get unreasonable, sometimes.......a couple of incidents, from my work experience........ I was working at ORD, in cargo as the Speci
186 Mayor : The general dec can be signed on the taxiway at destination......I fail to see why he insisted he needed it at that moment unless he was especially l
187 MPDPilot : I guess I don't understand what this is. Can someone explain. Now about the situation at hand. Having been in situations at work where I was in charg
188 Blrsea : Er, the captain getting all worked up because the GD was passed under the door is over the top. The FA did get it to him. There are other ways of res
189 Basefly : Are you kidding me!? If the account from flyertalk is accurate the CA is a VERY dangerous man, and why on earth should the FA be fired for not bringi
190 RussianJet : How is this a perfect example of that? One might suggest that the FA was in some way wrong, but how did she 'let it get out of control'?? That part s
191 WNCrew : WOW!! so now it's the FAs fault that this all happened!!! Some people will do anything to support the idea of "Captains Authority"!!!! I am almost spe
192 AirframeAS : Pardon my ignorance but.... Can someone explain to the rest of us what a crew dec is??
193 CO767FA : The document is known as the "General Declaration" and it is document that is required to be completed prior to Arrival in US. It details crew names,
194 BillReid : I see NO terminate-able offense from her. Obviously people who think she should be fired have NEVER had a person working or reporting to them. You do
195 TXJim : You sound like my son on road trips. My normal response is that he should plan better and go when opportunity permits. Are you stating that pilots ha
196 Silentbob : To be a good leader, people have to be willing to follow you. Treating people poorly is a good way to make sure they don't want to follow you, even i
197 Lowrider : The FA had a part in it. Sometimes you you have to swallow your pride, no matter how absurd the other person is being. You do this when it does not c
198 CokePopper : Was it the individual crew declaration or the General Declaration? Two different forms.
199 DescendVia : This is the only "defense" I will give to the captain, especially after all the new stuff that came to light. If this guy was not "up" on UA news, he
200 Sfomb67 : Sounds like the Captain is guilty of giving false statements to a police officer. Quite a difference in cultures here. Women are 2nd class citizens,
201 OB1504 : Wait, no, no, I was saying quite the opposite. Considering that at MIA, UA uses heavy-capable international gates and still has mainline employees st
202 DescendVia : No no I understand that, I just chose to quote you since it was the "closest" to the statement I was about to make. Sorry for the confusion. But on t
203 DescendVia : Can't edit..... But no its actually at very bad place to divert especially if they have had to get a new crew in. That would have caused a massive pr
204 MCOflyer : I am not going to make any judgment until the outcome is known. I wish the f/a the best of luck. I wish people knew how to communicate. KH
205 Pellegrine : This captain sounds absolutely crazy and out of control from the Flyertalk email. Not someone I would work with. I would tell him to kiss my a** too i
206 CO767FA : Gen Dec requires Captain and Lead Signatures. The Crew Dec only pertinent to the the individual crew member.
207 CO767FA : The whole diversion was unnecessary and costly for UA.
208 RussianJet : Wow, you seem to be reading a different story to the rest of us. You're still referring to the original incident anyway, not to how ridiculously exag
209 AirframeAS : The one question I have is why would the Captain need the crew doc before they reached the midway point in the flight??
210 WNCrew : As this situation seems to point more and more to irrationality on the part of the captain some of you who claim to be captains yourselves are loosing
211 EA CO AS : This captain is in a lot of hot water, if you ask me.
212 TXJim : This is the part of this thread I'm struggling with. I don't understand the aggressiveness of "the Captain as God" crowd. None of the pilots I know w
213 GT4EZY : I have to admit that they are few and far between but these types of guys are out there. I have only come across a couple in four years of flying but
214 OPNLguy : So too would ES's good friend and contemporary RC, as well as other old-timers JE, WH, and HT (who would later make it into my office). After reading
215 WestWing : Can anyone confirm whether Captain really told law enforcement officers that "(the FA) is a terrorist" ?
216 SeeTheWorld : That's like say to a woman, "you know your husband batters you, so you need to make sure you don't piss him off." This diversion is even more strange
217 SeeTheWorld : I wouldn't be surprised if this Captain has flown his last commercial flight. I absoutely disagree provided that most of what we've read is true. Thi
218 OPNLguy : That's part of things that neither of us will (or can) know about. If things can be successfully dealt with, or they can't, that'll be the deciding f
219 SeeTheWorld : It's just my opinion. I don't want this guy flying the airplane I'm on. I want a pilot who understands the importance of CRM and who proper communica
220 Lowrider : So if the FA simply said "I'm sorry", dropped it, and dealt with it through official channels after arrival, it would in no way have diffused the sce
221 SeeTheWorld : That is uncalled for ... The fact that you can't see that this pilot created far more safety issues by diverting this aircraft and clearly had commun
222 RussianJet : Why? Should she be expecting a captain to divert the aircraft because of some bickering about a crew dec? Hardly. Again, this is just talking about t
223 Blrsea : So why should the FA apologize? Going by what has been posted, I don't see her doing anything wrong. Why couldn't the Captain have done the same thin
224 Boeing747_600 : The Captain was found by the airline to have exceeded his authority and to have made a needless diversion to MIA. He was appropriately suspended. He
225 SeeTheWorld : Exactly. This is a pretty straightforward situation ... As I said at the beginning of this thread, "a pilot needs a DAMN good reason to divert an int
226 Lowrider : A landing in Miami is not inherently more dangerous than a landing in Chicago. The Captain is obviously not a CRM poster child and will, I'm sure, be
227 Post contains images TXJim : I think I solved the problem! Make this standard on all flight decks I always wondered if you had crossed paths with him. There have been many commen
228 Blrsea : We don't know if the FA backed down or not. She did send him the crew dec. So the captain got what he wanted. We don't know for sure if the FA backed
229 SeeTheWorld : Two landings are twice as dangerous as one. I actually think you've completely missed the boat on this one. If after over 200 posts, with the informa
230 Boeing747_600 : Not necessarily. Its entirely plausible given the information at hand, but more importantly, the fact that the pilot was disciplined following a revi
231 Lowrider : If your application of statistics is correct, then it is only a matter of time until I end up in a smoking hole at the end of a runway because you as
232 NASBWI : Here's the thing: given the little information we know, it's difficult to deduce that everything happened exactly the way it did according to the ema
233 AirframeAS : What is the pilot's union response to all of this? Does anyone know? What about the FA's union?
234 WNCrew : I will end my participation in this thread by stating that I am AMAZED at the... as one poster put it.. As a crewmember, if I were on a trip with a CA
235 Boeing747_600 : Jamake1 - My MOST sincere apologies for not quoting the right poster -It was Manfredj in Reply 40 that I meant to quote. Terribly sorry. Again Cheers
236 Lowrider : This is reading too much into the circumstances. The captain was discipline because of multiple failures on his part during the course of the flight.
237 SeeTheWorld : It's just a fact ... just as riding your bike down the street two times versus one time. I'm not making any claim that landing in MIA is more dangero
238 SeeTheWorld : It's true - coming of an extended sick leave is not the issue here. It is purely the actions of the Captain on this flight. It may or may not turn ou
239 NASBWI : Not preferred, perhaps. But, UA does have facilities at MIA - even if they don't serve mainline. The company itself is still present, and that's enou
240 SeeTheWorld : Seriously dude .. they should not have diverted .. that's the point. Regardless, the co-pilots apparently suggested MCO. However, it doesn't really m
241 Nws2002 : Based on the information we have available she didn't have anything to back down from. He asked for the paperwork once, she got busy and forgot, he a
242 AirframeAS : Another question: How was the flight even legal sans 1 FA?! That's another big deal now that UA also has to deal with the FAA on this one.
243 Nws2002 : Most international flights have more than the minimum required by the carrier evac certification. I'll assume this was the case here.
244 Vfw614 : Why are we arguing so much? If the guy really demanded the FA being arrested as a "terrorist", he is simply nuts and should get nowhere near a plane f
245 AirframeAS : We have no more information on what is happening now, if the Captain got canned or got a severe suspension or if the FA got suspended.
246 Max Q : Lowrider, You have been one of the few, consistently rational and cogent contributors to this thread along with Bellerophon's insightful analysis. Unf
247 AirframeAS : Then explain to us why the captain needed the crew dec right then and there before they reached the midway point into the flight. Can you explain tha
248 Mayor : Exactly. Whether it was the general dec or the crew dec, this particular form is not a safety of flight issue and should never have started this type
249 ARFFdude : I don't think anyone has a specific grudge against captains here. If the FA had blown up and started yelling and screaming because a pilot wanted sug
250 Jamake1 : You're the one that has has a very myopic concept of Captain's Authority, and quite frankly a rather distorted view of CRM. The Purser on flight 842
251 Jamake1 : Very well said, WN Crew...
252 DescendVia : Negative...... after a diversion is required, not in this case though, its ALL about limiting the damage. Luckily the crew went onto to ORD or this c
253 Max Q : How do you know this, were you on this flight and witnessed the events ? Again, how do you know this, do you work in dispatch / system control ? You
254 DescendVia : I can't confirm nor deny they "told him to go to MCO" but I guarantee dispatch would have told the captain that MCO is his best bet (another resource
255 WNCrew : Yes, while your statements have all been based on sound, unbiased, fair, open-minded, educated, moral, logical, facts showing ZERO favor to either cr
256 Max Q : In other words you don't know. Period.
257 DescendVia : No I do know....... dispatch CAN'T force the pilot to divert but I know for a fact they (CHIDD) would have said MCO is the best bet.
258 OPNLguy : Going back to my post #218, you'd consider getting served that 145F cup of coffee (versus the 150F cup your ordered) as a challenge to your PIC autho
259 Max Q : Now that is something I completely agree with.
260 IAirAllie : I thought Wonder Dog was a cartoon. As have flight deck crew members. No human being is immune from malfunction. Of course not captains are never wro
261 Mayor : This whole thread reminds me of the joke that went like this..... What's the difference between God and a Pilot? God doesn't think he's a pilot.
262 USAFDO : After reading the 2nd hand story, and if true I can only hope UA has already fired that pilot, and docks his pay for the total cost diversion (all cre
263 Max Q : Well, how can you argue with such fair and balanced logic as this ? ! Regardless of how some on this thread like to postulate on whose authority is f
264 SKY1 : Because the divert itself. There was not any mechanical or engine failure, nor a terrorist among the pax. or drunk/difficult pax. It seems there was
265 USAFDO : Poster "MaxQ"... Go back and re ready the beginning of my statement: "...if true". And 100% yes I stand by every comment I posted..... if the story is
266 Giopan1975 : Why not ask first "Is it all right if I slip the paper under your door? There is no way I am breaking the rules by opening cockpit door in flight." I
267 USAFDO : Giopan1975.... Why would you ask if it is OK for the F/A to slip the paper work under the door? Strange question....since we all know the rules...i.e.
268 IAHERJ : You can throw me in the category of those who think this captain has just flown his last trip for United Airlines. Unless some very different version
269 USAFDO : IAHERJ... Thanks for shedding light on the subject. The UA situation sounds bad, but back to the basics of what may have happened..... this type of ac
270 Giopan1975 : Because you have the knowlegde or the ability to think that this captain is either having big issues with his ego or just a very bad day and the matu
271 USAFDO : To GIOPAN1975.... If you think for 2 seconds that some F/A is going to bow and beccon to this type of irrational behavior..... my advise is to take a
272 AirframeAS : Dude, my respect for you is going nowhere but a downward spiral. With that said, do you think it was really warranted and necessary for this Captain
273 Max Q : As already stated, you are not in a position to judge this Captain unless you know the full (unadulterated) facts of the case and, just as crucially a
274 AirframeAS : Neither are you, but this is A.net....in case you forgot. Speculation happens here every minute this site has been up and running! But then again, ho
275 Vfw614 : 1. As a captain, you do not expect your crew members to break the law 2. As a captain, you do not scream at your crew - particularly not if the first
276 Woof : The beneficiaries of A.net must love threads like this. It just made me pay $5 a month after having been solely a 'lurker' for the last 7 years. I'm n
277 MD11Engineer : The Scottish royal family was called Stewart (with a "t" at the end). A steward was originially (in medieval England) a person who administered a man
278 Giopan1975 : Commenting on this Flyertalk e-mail and taking what it says as fact is quite dangerous. Anyway, this mail has made most of the posters in this forum
279 IAirAllie : Nothing cheap about it that is what is being said internally about the issue at UAL.
280 LTBEWR : I wonder if the pilot in question will be encouraged to retire soon as possible, that would be the least embarassing way out for everyone. As a Captai
281 Kaiarahi : I'm beginning to think you're hiding the fact that you were actually the captain on UA842.
282 IAirAllie : Giopan1975 "What would happen in a real emergency where captain would give clear and direct orders? Would she look the other way?" If anything her con
283 IAirAllie : Giopan1975 "Why not ask first "Is it all right if I slip the paper under your door? It would be SO SIMPLE to ask first. What do you think that captain
284 SeeTheWorld : Complete and utter rubbish!!!
285 Melpax : When I was working in reail in a previous life, it was common to get complaints from my Area Manager that were passed on from head office staff who c
286 CO767FA : This is the Court of Public Opinion and it appears your client is going down fast; unless you provide the QB sneek play of the week it looks like you
287 NASBWI : I would tend to agree with you, except you make it sound as though teamwork and CRM are merely 'beneficial' and not 'necessary'. I would beg to diffe
288 CO767FA : Do you think the Purser told the CA to take a hike, that she wasn't going fufill his request because she was up to arms in the service and that he co
289 Mayor : And if the Captain told the FA to open an exit door, inflight, would this also apply? Of course not.....that's a safety of flight issue. This, from w
290 Panova98 : Woof, Welcome aboard. I certainly couldn't have said it better. I wonder if the network/cable TV folks are reading threads like this one. The facts, w
291 SeeTheWorld : This is actually a pretty bizarre situation and one in which a lot of people/airlines will learn from. If you think it's silly, then don't waste time
292 AirframeAS : Well, that seals the deal for me. It is pretty obvious that this pilot went wacko in the cuckoo's nest. I think this guy flew his last ever commercia
293 Lowrider : Thank you. I try to stay objective. I have often witnessed popular theories that emerge here and are defended virtually to the death, but are ultimat
294 Kaiarahi : So if the CA orders the FAs to strip and do the meal service naked and start by serving the FC meals to PAX at the back of economy, the FAs should ju
295 NASBWI : Honestly, we don't know what set the CA off on that flight. He could have had other issues going on (not having anything to do with the purser), or t
296 IAirAllie : I agree. This could be a great learning opportunity. Does it matter what set him off? Unless she was being unsafe it does not. You don't divert an ai
297 NASBWI : Indeed it doesn't matter; it's all water under the bridge at this point, and I agree that a diversion over a personality conflict (that doesn't inter
298 Max Q : The FAA seems to disagree : As a major Airline Captain or a Flight Attendant ? there is a difference I can make a cup of coffee, does that qualify me
299 Mayor : Isn't something like her slipping the general dec under the cockpit door a pretty chicken s**t reason for his actions??? Regardless of what the FAA s
300 Gigneil : From what I've been told, this guy is a total douche with a history of conflict with other employees. He's also still not flying after the incident. N
301 Mayor : And supposedly, she still is. That should mean something, right there.
302 ATTart : We, get it you are boss hear you roar!!!!!!!! You carry a big stick and watch out for anyone who doesn't agree with you. So beat your chest some more
303 VC10DC10 : So... about three hundred replies here... a lot of emotion from a lot of people... any more real news or verifiable information about this incident?
304 CO767FA : LOL...what did you expect - calm -reasonable discussion? If there is anything to report it will be shot down as bad journalism, rumor or conjecture.
305 Silentbob : Why did the company or the other crew allow him to depart MIA after exhibiting such irrational and disconcerting behavior? If I was working the fligh
306 IAirAllie : Gee now why would there be any emnity...
307 IAirAllie : I would have strongly considered it too. However that would leave all the pax stranded. I would have to really think long and hard about how much of
308 IAirAllie : Excuse? CRM is meant to empower the crew to challenge the captain when there is a legitimate reason to do so. I can see that you do... Your respect f
309 MillwallSean : YES thank you, that is the right thought. we are all here for the paying customers. Our job is to get them from point A to point B in a safe and punc
310 AirframeAS : Where does it say in FAR 121.535 that a FA must give the captain the crew dec whenever he requires it? Show me word for word that says "Flight attend
311 Lincoln : If I were a passenger on the fligh and had heard the captain go bonkers on the purser I would seriously consider getting myself removed from the airc
312 Gigneil : He was, in fact, instructed to divert to MCO because of that fact - he chose not to. I can't see any way for this guy to keep his job. I'm sure his c
313 NASBWI : Being that that particular flight came from abroad, it would be much more difficult for the passenger to disembark (customs/immigration on top of the
314 AirframeAS : Right but one error on your part, he was not instructed to.... his ops folks suggested that he go to MCO.
315 Max Q : You may be a little confused about your role. With most flights carrying more than the minimum required complement of Flight Attendants your 'walking
316 Nws2002 : That's big question for me too. I would assume that dispatch only had his side of the story or they would have stopped the flight from departing MIA.
317 Peterpuck : I suggest you read more carefully, the Captain is clearly in charge of the entire aircraft and all crew members. The wording is specific.
318 NASBWI : With regard to part (e) - mainly because it's been brought up so much - that basically translates to: the PIC, regardless of what might be going on i
319 ATTart : It, shows how much you do not know about the FAs role. I can tell you about a flight that I was working and we had a CA with an attitude like yours a
320 ATTart : I had another flight Pre 9/11 working a 747SP to NRT. I had a CA wanting me to lay linen in the Cockpit when I was laying the linen for the pax in the
321 Max Q : NAS, your question carries with it the assumption that the Captain in question acted in the manner that has been speculated on and I stress, speculat
322 NASBWI : That wasn't my intention in asking; I simply wanted to know where you would stand (and not any other pilot), given similar circumstances - especially
323 IAirAllie : Not in this case they had an RO onboard so loosing one pilot would not shut it down (assuming they were within FAR duty limits for 2 pilot ops and th
324 SkyGirl : Welcome to the posting world, and thanks for your regards!! I'm following along the lines of Allie here, in that I would have to question how much of
325 Theredbaron : I Imagine myself on seat A3 of F in that flight.... I see the F/o going to the lav and the purser going in the cabin. Then I hear yelling, and a mad s
326 Max Q : With your extensive experience as a Flight Attendant and Private Pilot I am very surprised you do not realise that GRU-ORD cannot be operated with tw
327 Nws2002 : In the air, maybe, but it all changes when you land. If I chose to disregard a request from the captain, and I have a good reason to do so, I will no
328 Max Q : I am reminded again why so many passengers prefer to fly on Singapore, Cathay, Japan Airlines etc.. This 'all about me' attitude from some Flight Atte
329 Post contains images AirframeAS : This is far, far, far, FAR from that state of mind of the "all about me" theory. Crewmembers are expected to work together as a team. With that, it i
330 Nws2002 : The point is its not all about any one person. As a team we should strive to move our passengers safely, comfortably, and on time to their destinatio
331 Max Q : I know plenty of Flight Attendants that never have to apologise for their service. Good service is grounded in attitude, a good one guarantees an equ
332 Nws2002 : Pax: "What's for lunch on this flight?" FA: "I'm sorry meals are not served on this flight, but we do have snacks for sale for $5" Pax: "Can I have a
333 Max Q : I would suggest, NWS, that you never apologise for things that are out of your control.
334 Woof : Max, I'm a little confused here. I can see the regulations you've posted, but you appear to be stating that the only interpretation of those regs is
335 EA CO AS : Wow, Max - look, I respect the hell out of you and your opinions, and certainly your position - but your statement above is not only overly-simplisti
336 Pblanker : As a "pax" this has been an interesting fight to observe... No doubt that tensions are high and I have also no doubt that this is going to cost lives
337 VC10DC10 : I would suggest, Max Q, that this would tend toward the creation of an impression of indifference, arrogance, and rudeness in the minds of passengers
338 DescendVia : Read reply's 254 and 257. I was doing some thinking last night in the shower and came to this. The meal service is the flight attendants "sterile cab
339 SeeTheWorld : Don't forget a catalsyt for "pilot apologists." If anything, I think fellow pilots would be appalled by the apparent unprofessional behavior of one o
340 SeeTheWorld : I think this is a really good question. I'm wonder why and surprised that the co-pilots didn't intervene in MIA based on his irrational behavior. Thi
341 Kaiarahi : Duhhhh - we're talking about MIA-ORD.
342 SeeTheWorld : You really are a piece of work - gross generalizations, supporting the pilot side regardless of the situation, insulting flight attendents, ridiculou
343 CokePopper : Your kidding right? If not, then I am certainly glad you don't work for Delta. Our customers want to be heard, they want someone to take ownership of
344 IAirAllie : I am ever so sorry that I do not off hand know the flight times for every possible routing on the globe especial for a route which I have never perso
345 Post contains links Vfw614 : Account of (an alleged) crew member of said flight: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...-offload-purser-7.html#post5075364 - FA has a spotless 30+
346 SkyGirl : I imagine it's might have been difficult for the FO to say anything. If I recall, the ORD-GRU trip is a 4 day trip, which means the guys up front had
347 Post contains images Blrsea : Looking at your response here, it appears to be true in case of CAs   I think some captains don't want to acknowledge that there might be bad apples
348 Gigneil : That's true. And when that authority is abused, he gets it taken away. That's what's likely to happen here. And certainly what should happen based on
349 Srbmod : This thread has run its' course and nothing constructive has come of the posts in quite a while. There will not be a second part to continue the discu
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