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BA To Suspend BA15/BA16 (LHR-SIN-SYD)  
User currently offlineFlyboysp From Australia, joined Apr 2007, 739 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21935 times:

I was browsing airline routes updates, and it appears BA will temporarily suspend some flights between LHR and SYD via SIN (BA15/BA16).

This will come into being from 1 NOV09-25 NOV09 and 28 FEB10- 27 MAR10.

With these temporary reductions known, are there any BA insiders who know how BA are going overall in relation in flights to Australia.

[Edited 2009-07-17 03:07:55]


#proudtobeabulldog
91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21917 times:

They are always busy flights?

Cant believe they are doing it.


User currently offlineCV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21716 times:
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The flights are busy but when you compare the fares to destinations which are closer such as LAX SFO BUE and the fact that the aircraft doesn't have to stay on the ground for 8 hours as it does in SYD then the revenue per hour might be much better. Even to JNB and CPT where the aircraft has a ground stop of 12 hrs the total time away from LON is about 36 hours compared to SYD which is about 56 hours. That is nearly 60% time away from base but the fares from LONSYD aren't 60% more than LONJNB.

Maybe in these times and with the competition from QF SQ & EK with the A380 it makes sense to cut costs and use the aircraft in a less competitive and more efficient way.



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User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1670 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21488 times:

I don't think pax will lose seats overall since BA and QF are close on the Kangaroo route, and with QF using A380s and there's less demand for seats anyway, then it sorta evens out. I'm surprised they're doing this over Xmas though, when there is high demand.

User currently offlineAPYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21449 times:

On other dates the LHR-SIN terminator service is also suspended as a temporary commercial measure


We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21446 times:



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 3):

Highest demand will be end of November / Early December, and January, times when they are thankfully not stopping the route, would have caused MAYHEM otherwise, with people booking up this route as soon as it becomes available.


User currently offlineAPYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21412 times:

Last month Singapore had UK-OZ fares for less than £400 which shows that the kangaroo route is not as full as it used to be and a sign of the number of spare seats available.

It does mean sadly that with the reduction of seats the fares are unlikely to drop for those still wishing to book travel



We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 21299 times:

Quoting CV990Coronado (Reply 2):
,but the fares from LONSYD aren't 60% more than LONJNB.

But the cost of flying LON-SYD isn't 60% higher than LON-JNB either. It's not like it cost BA twice as much operating a 2000nm flight vs a 1000nm flight

[Edited 2009-07-17 04:39:00]

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 21265 times:

They are compeeting against two carriers flying LHR-SYD on A380 which has significantly lower cost and more appeal to passengers that BA's equipment.

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8551 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 21159 times:
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Quoting Someone83 (Reply 7):
Quoting CV990Coronado (Reply 2):
,but the fares from LONSYD aren't 60% more than LONJNB.

But the cost of flying LON-SYD isn't 60% higher than LON-JNB either. It's not like it cost BA twice as much operating a 2000nm flight vs a 1000nm flight

Does BA have crew based in SIN or SYD ? If not then the crewing costs will be massively higher as crew will need to be rotated through 4 sectors rather than just two , and crew accommodation will be required in SIN and SYD then SIN again rather than just JNB . Also , if the crews rotate right through the whole routing then they will be away from base for considerably longer so the cost of allowances increases dramatically as well . Catering costs onboard are obviously higher as you are looking at catering 4 sectors rather than 2 . I am sure that there are other additional costs that I may not have considered , but overall it would not surprise me if LHR-BKK/SIN-SYD return does cost vastly more to operate than LHR-JNB return .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 21155 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 7):
But the cost of flying LON-SYD isn't 60% higher than LON-JNB

It is about revenue opportunities over a period, LON-JNB has better revenue opportunities.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2499 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 21105 times:

Even QF is reduncing their flights on the Kangooro route. There are some days where there is only one flight operating to SYD or MEL.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineSteve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 21013 times:



Quoting CV990Coronado (Reply 2):
the aircraft doesn't have to stay on the ground for 8 hours as it does in SYD

eh? the 15/16 is in SIN for about 90 minutes each direction to refuel en route to SYD. The 11/12 is the SIN terminator.

Bit surprised as its "only" a 4-class T7 with not THAT many seats to fill (compared with a 52J 744) - added to which, when I flew it this February just gone, I was quite staggered that F was full on all sectors except SIN-SYD, when there was just one free seat. Of course, no idea about yield.



eu nasci ha dez mil anos atras, e nao tem nada nesse mundo que eu nao saiba demais
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20852 times:

You'll probably find QF and SQ have snapped up all the available passengers on their roomy A380s.

Who'd want to be crammed into BA's old 747-400's at roughly the same price?

BA should have acted quicker on getting A380's for the kangeroo route.


User currently offlineCityofAthens From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20788 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
Does BA have crew based in SIN or SYD ? If not then the crewing costs will be massively higher as crew will need to be rotated through 4 sectors rather than just two , and crew accommodation will be required in SIN and SYD then SIN again rather than just JNB .

BA has SIN-based crew, however there is no crew base in SYD. The majority of the 15 cabin crew on a 747 are on a LHR-SYD round-trip with a total of 4 nights in SIN (2 local nights eastbound and westbound) and 1 night in SYD. Total trip length is 9 days.


User currently offlineCV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20684 times:
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Quoting Steve6666 Reply 12

eh? the 15/16 is in SIN for about 90 minutes each direction to refuel en route to SYD. The 11/12 is the SIN terminator.

I was refering to total time away from the London base which is about 56 hours

Quoting Babtbus Reply 13

You'll probably find QF and SQ have snapped up all the available passengers on their roomy A380s.

Who'd want to be crammed into BA's old 747-400's at roughly the same price?

BA should have acted quicker on getting A380's for the kangeroo route.

Good point although again I would say they could probably use those on other routes in perference to LON SYD. After all why complete with SQ QF and EK when you can compete with UA/DL JJ and SAA



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User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20678 times:

this is part of winter capacity cuts and SYD is a double daily so on certain weeks there is the ability to cut a flight and transfer pax over to the QF flight (which is what is happening)

The 15/16 when it does operate (and the 11/12 doesnt) shows a 744 instead of 777 to add some capacity back.


User currently offlineAPYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20661 times:



Quoting CityofAthens (Reply 14):
BA has SIN-based crew, however there is no crew base in SYD. The majority of the 15 cabin crew on a 747 are on a LHR-SYD round-trip with a total of 4 nights in SIN (2 local nights eastbound and westbound) and 1 night in SYD. Total trip length is 9 days.

Of course these trips will be much cheaper to operate when the crew SIN slip moves to just one night each way with the current proposed changes to crew scheduling agreements as part of Willie's cost cutting.



We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20582 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 13):
You'll probably find QF and SQ have snapped up all the available passengers on their roomy A380s.

well of course, after all you can book a flight on the QF A380 under a BA flight number!! It doesnt matter whether I fly on BA or QF metal under the JSA, it is for ll (well most) intents and purposes the same airline on this route.

The 380 has added capacity at a time demand has fallen. Collectively it is easier for BA/QF to drop the occasional 777 rather downguage a 380 or 744 from QF


User currently offlineCityofAthens From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20561 times:



Quoting APYu (Reply 17):
Of course these trips will be much cheaper to operate when the crew SIN slip moves to just one night each way with the current proposed changes to crew scheduling agreements as part of Willie's cost cutting.

You may be surprised to hear that I believe all of the proposals tabled by the Company to get BA out of the black hole it finds itself in are perfectly reasonable, and frankly necessary. Whilst I respect each person's right to join a union I have absolutely no time for the Union which claims to represent my interests - BASSA.

But that is for another thread, as you know. The relevance to this thread might be that with shorter slips, the route may become less costly (on the other hand it may not make any real difference given the dire performance, the formidable competition which excludes Qantas due to the service agreements on this route, and the high costs of losing an aircraft for a lengthy period of time).


User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20422 times:

The obvious answer is that QF will be leasing two A380's to BA for a short period and those birds will be making the non-stop trip for BA.

User currently offlineScrappy27 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 19210 times:

I think the headline for this thread should have the word "temporary" added before the word suspension... It makes it sound like the BA15/16 are gonna be cancelled forever!?

Winter schedules will have the BA15/16 back to the 747 and not 777 too


User currently offlineSQ_EK_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1633 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18855 times:



Quoting Danny (Reply 8):
two carriers flying LHR-SYD on A380

QF, SQ and EK all use the A380 on the LHR-SYD sectors (in so far as you can fly them all the way to SYD).



Keep Discovering
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8336 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18565 times:
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AS much as BA loves Australia, can the day be far away when a British Airways plane doesn't fly to Australia ? The best things for BA may be to fly to Singapore and hub with Qantas there, and when the 787-9 does arrives, to fly to Sydney nonstop and one-stop on the way home to LHR. OF course the currently available option of teh 777LR flying 18 hours nonstop from LHR to SYD can happan NOW. BA has 777 GE experience and the only way to stop the leakage of traffic to Emirates, Etihas and Qatar is to go nonstop even if only one way.

IF Cathay can fly nonstop from JFK to JKG with a 777-300ER then BA should be able to LHR to SYD with a 777LR.


User currently offlineThe Coachman From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18212 times:

Where do we begin...

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 23):
The best things for BA may be to fly to Singapore and hub with Qantas there, and when the 787-9 does arrives, to fly to Sydney nonstop and one-stop on the way home to LHR. OF course the currently available option of teh 777LR flying 18 hours nonstop from LHR to SYD can happan NOW.

The lead-in time for a 77L is probably about 2 years at least even if they were ordered tomorrow. The 789 is at least 5 years away, who knows what the world economy will be like in 5 years time.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 23):
IF Cathay can fly nonstop from JFK to JKG with a 777-300ER then BA should be able to LHR to SYD with a 777LR.

Do you realise how much longer LHR-SYD is over JFK-HKG? And you know that CO does EWR-HKG with a 77E?

If the 77L would profitably do SYD-LHR nonstop, QF would have jumped on it years ago.

Your analysis is about 5 years behind the times.



M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
25 BP1 : Do you think BA is XNLing that frequency because customers want to fly on the A380 between LHR-SIN on SQ and QF? Maybe the A380 is a REAL factor in cu
26 Viscount724 : No, the 777LR cannot operqate LHR-SYD with an economic payload. It's almost 2,200 nm further than JFK-HKG, and almost 1,000 nm further than the longe
27 AirNZ : Can you perhaps explain how you come to that (completely incorrect) conclusion........especially the bit regarding the currently available option? Fr
28 FlyCaledonian : The JSA has only been mentioned once. Is everyone forgetting that? On flights to Australia routed via BKK and SIN to all intents and purposes BA and Q
29 Max Q : Does the average coach passenger have any more room in an A380 than a 744 ? Granted the bus is bigger but it also has a lot more seats.
30 Viscount724 : Just a correction (too late to edit) to my reference in the posting above to SQ's A340-500 ultra-longhaul service JFK-SIN. That should read EWR-SIN.
31 Jfk777 : How long is it from Mumbai to Atlanta on Delta's 777LR ? Another 777LR flown by Delta is the JNB to ATL nonstop, thats about 8500 miles, its flown no
32 Jfk777 : AIR NZ, The longest range plane I can think of today is a 777LR or an A340-500. So if you have another we on this board haven't heard of please let u
33 BMI727 : ATL-BOM is about 8,500 miles while LHR-SYD is about 10,500.
34 Chrisrad : ATL-BOM - 8510 MILES LHR-SYD - 10573 MILES Slight difference??
35 VV701 : LHR-SYD 10,573 miles ATL-BOM 8,510 miles ATL-JNB 8,439 miles
36 Alangirvan : If the 56 hours away from London makes poor use of one aircraft, why does BA not do a lunch time departure from LHR, with early evening arrival into S
37 Viscount724 : LHR-SYD is 18 nm further than JNB-SFO, .
38 XT6Wagon : Sure it can. What it can't do is compete against the glut of seats on the 1 stop flights. If the 1 stop flights were at full capacity in the premium
39 RedChili : The return flight would have to leave SYD at around 21:00, with arrival in SIN at 03:00. It would continue from SIN at 05:00 and arrive in LHR at 12:
40 Post contains links Nickofatlanta : Here's an interesting article about these cuts: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...ory/0,28124,25791542-23349,00.html
41 ZK-NBT : BA actually used to have a flight like this that arrived in SYD at 1945 and left around 2215. It was around 2001/02 from memory when QF had a shortag
42 Bananaboy : What's inconvenient about arriving in Heathrow at midday? Mark
43 LHR380 : QF do that at the mo. Lots of connections to europe and the uk around that time as well.
44 OP3000 : The other factor here is that demand has dropped more on people flying out of LHR than from SYD, which favors the Aussie carrier despite BA having str
45 Alangirvan : From my experience of flights operating between SYD and UK, there seem to be very few passengers who actually leave the flight at SIN (or KUL or HKG)
46 The Coachman : And therein lies the inherent contradiction in your post. A B777-200LR "could" economically do LHR-SYD non-stop but it "can't" at the moment. Your po
47 Lufthansa : It absolutely would. Hotels in singapore are much much cheaper then in both Sydney and London. (though I'm sure at the moment you can get out of the
48 Astuteman : At the end of the day that will always depend on the specific configurations, but current configurations allow more space per pax in Y. An A380-800 h
49 VHTJE : Quite! How does this change affect the JSA? (And I thought the JSA affected all routes to Australia, i.e. HKG as well as SIN/BKK?)
50 AirNZ : Hmmm! what exactly are you talking about, or was that your explanation I asked for? The fact that the 777LR and A345 are the longest-range available
51 Theginge : I think BA's main reason for doing this is likely to be to free the B777's that operate the LHR-SIN-SYD route for a period of time. Which in turn mean
52 Jfk777 : Dear AIR NZ, Lets talk a fews facts, not opinions. Delta Mumbai to ATL is 18 plus hours on a 777LR. Some years ago Tony Blair was in Brussels for an E
53 Lufthansa : Um... a few points. Firstly that wasn't nonstop to Sydney. If my memory serves me correct that was nonstop to Darwin. There was some sort of commonwe
54 Lufthansa : Okay sorry I stand corrected. The flight was to Melbourne. Which I might add is actually closer then Sydney to Singapore flight time wise...and doesn'
55 RedChili : You've got a point. Midday would, in fact, be a better time of arrival for some passengers. The people who would lose on a midday arrival are the one
56 Post contains images Astuteman : I thought we had already done the facts....    edit- As an afterthought - As far as I can recall, EK are preparing to operate their A380's between
57 Lufthansa : Oh just one more thing to ad. In 1989 Qantas flew the 747-400 Non-stop between LHR and Sydney on its delivery flight. This aircraft obviously only had
58 Theginge : It is all very well doing LHR-SYD non stop in a 777LR but then if you have to stop on the way back, say in SIN, you then have to have a replacement cr
59 RedChili : I don't think this would be a big problem. The only deadhead leg would probably be SYD-SIN. They would probably need four pilots for LHR-SYD, two for
60 AirNZ : Will you please explain to me what in hell you are actually talking about? You want facts, then let's deal in facts (which many have tried to present
61 B747-4U3 : I think the only fact worth considering is that Qantas (or BA...can't remember which) looked at the 77L to operate SYD-LHR non-stop but concluded tha
62 Astuteman : Funnily enough, Airbus have flown and A330-200 from TLS to SYD. Have to say, when you look at the ferry range (no payload) of a 744 (about 8 400Nm II
63 Post contains links and images EPA001 : Quoting Astuteman (Reply 56): Do you think maybe that's what BA a really preparing for? LHR-SYD direct with their A380's?.... That would be something,
64 Astuteman : True. I was just having fun. The 772LR will get there first... Rgds
65 FlyCaledonian : From what I recall the MEL-HKG-LHR flight was introduced after the current JSA was extended, so it only covers the flights operating through SE Asia.
66 Jfk777 : Air NZ, Are you qualified to work at such an airline as Aerolinias Agentinas ?
67 Viscount724 : If you want to talk facts, where do you get the "18 plus hours" for DL's BOM-ATL nonstop? The scheduled block time is 16:30. And as a sidenote. DL is
68 Jfk777 : per Delta .com its 17 hours, it might be longer in the winter.
69 VV701 : I think that you will find that the JSA is still broader than that. It covers all BA and QF services between Australia and Europe and services from b
70 Alangirvan : The plane that was going to give you non stop SYD-LHR has not yet been built - it was going to be the Boeing Sonic Cruiser, which became the 787. The
71 Gemuser : Astuteman, they did it by: 1) Only the upper deck was fitted out 2) There were TWENTY or so people on board, tech crew, executives & press, food & dr
72 Pellegrine : Also don't forget going LHR or TLS to SYD you have the benefit of winds. The issue with with a nonstop between London and Sydney is with SYD-LHR, whe
73 Astuteman : True. For what its worth, its easy to see how the A330 did it - it's ferry range is about 9 200Nm, so it's easy to see how TLS-SYD was possible with
74 RedChili : I'm curious to know why do you think it's longer in the winter? Does the 77L lose performance because the calendar says "January" instead of "July"?
75 BMI727 : No, but winds are generally stronger in the winter.
76 RedChili : Which would be an important factor that would prolong a flight between e.g. HKG-LHR, but would reduce flight time on LHR-HKG. But on ATL-BOM, winds a
77 AirNZ : absolutely!! Both QF and BA have extensively studied it and came to that conclusion indeed. Both those airlines would give their right arm to do it s
78 VV701 : Absolutely sure. Here are three examples not in the LHR-BKK/SIN-SYD/MEL group of flights that are operated with a BA/QF code share: BA7306 (FRA-SYD)
79 Jfk777 : Curious to what makes you the ulimate authority on matter of 777LR ? Are you a pilot, an egineer, and executive whose career has been in the airline
80 AirNZ : First of all, I think you really need to refrain from the melodrama. In no way, shape nor form have I claimed, or even implied, that I am an 'authori
81 Ncelhr : I flew LHR-SIN-SYD 3 weeks ago and SYD-BKK-LHR 2 weeks ago. In each case, the aircraft lands at (SIN or BKK), you leave the aircraft for a couple of h
82 EPA001 : That is quite a career you have in aviation AirNZ. And although you say it is relatively unimportant, I think it is a quite impressive list and that
83 Readytotaxi : You miss the rush hour, and sitting on the M4 for ages.
84 EDICHC : Try reading the guy's profile.... As stated by many others, I cannot possibly see how any carrier could operate the 777 or any other current commerci
85 Jfk777 : Thank You for the courtesy of an answer, however I am trying to have a constructive conversation, as are all of us. AS for Delta's use of the 777LR,
86 Astuteman : Those would have been interesting references by the way, as all of those routes are being scheduled by EK to be operated by their A380's in the near-
87 Yellowtail : I jsut flew BA LHR-NBO...and I can tell you it was a horrible experience.....compared to my return on VS.......BA's crew was miserable, the flight was
88 CityofAthens : This is precisely the problem with BA as far as the service proposition is concerned ... it remains far too inconsistent, and the reality can be very
89 SurfandSnow : It's almost shocking to see iconic giants such as BA ending these classic flights, but then again, EK, EY, and QR aren't drawing most of their pax out
90 Hardiwv : This means BA will park even more aircraft in the short-term. Rgs,
91 Gemuser : We will just have to agree to disagree, Astuteman. I think it will be an A380 derivative that will do it ECONOMICALLY. I think the B72L is just too s
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