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When G4 Filed Bankruptcy  
User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1112 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

When Allegiant Filed for Bankrupcty, what was their route structure like, and what if anything did they have to do with Air21?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4759 times:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001206034500/http://www.allegiantair.com/

These were their routes just prior to bankruptcy:

(FAT & LGB were their "hubs"):

FAT-LGB
FAT-LAS
FAT-PDX
FAT-RNO
PDX-RNO
LGB-LAS
LGB-TVL (Lake Tahoe)

I'm not sure of any link between G4 and Air21, may just be coincidental both were based out of FAT.

[Edited 2009-07-17 13:36:05]

User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4661 times:



Quoting Ridgid727 (Thread starter):
When Allegiant Filed for Bankrupcty, what was their route structure like, and what if anything did they have to do with Air21?

IIRC, G4 flew just a few DC-9's. I remember a 10 or 20 series, and a 50 series I believe. They were very small, and not very well heard of. Air21 was solo pretty much. I think they worked with Air LA a little, and there was some talk of Tristar Airlines doing some code share work.

Things changed when Gallagher came into the office.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4480 times:

G4 had no connection with Air 21 and there was no connection with Air LA or Tri-Star. Air 21 had no connection with AIr LA.

I think where you're getting confused is:

There were a number of charter ops between FAT and LAS - the most successful being Funjet Express which started out with Viscount 737's. Funjet was using Tri-Star 146's at the end... Funjet Express was put together by ex-Morris Air guys who had a pretty good thing going for awhile. A few of those guys put together the next generation of Funjet Express, that being Win-West...which was a charter deal using short-lived WinAir out of LGB. There was even talk by the Ex-Morris Air guys of doing the FAT-LAS with a chartered WN to create an illusion of WN being in FAT.

Air 21 was a disaster in all too many ways except that there's potential in under-served markets. Its big market was FAT-LAS.

G4 was something that Mitch Allee wanted to bring to FAT. He brought in a couple good people from Air 21 and a few, uh, well....not so good, and packed FAT-LAS. They were going to call the carrier Westjet Express until a certain Canadian carrier talked them out of it. Even in it's first years, there was a dedication to quality service and value that was pretty rare then and holds true today.

FATFlyer knows more.... I was so involved with the Funjet and Air 21 era that I was pretty burned out by the time G4 actually took to the skies...


User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4392 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 3):
Air 21 was a disaster in all too many ways except that there's potential in under-served markets

Do expound on that if you will. I remember seeing them in SLC, and they had a flight one day to GJT.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4354 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 3):
Air 21 was a disaster in all too many ways except that there's potential in under-served markets. Its big market was FAT-LAS.

Yes, and close to the end, it was insane. I remember some type of marketing agreement with WN? They had F-28's all over the place. I was going to hop on one of their flights in LAX once, and as I saw the condition of the plane as it taxied past, I decided to fly the Tristar 146 back to Vegas.

Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 3):
Funjet was using Tri-Star 146's at the end

Yes, I remember that very well. In fact, one of Tristar's 146's was in the middle of being repossessed after one of their charters to LAS. I will never forget the last days of Tristar. I stayed with them until the end. They were going to try and get airborne again with 727's. The main money man for Tristar is in prison now. Go figure.

Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 3):
I was so involved with the Funjet and Air 21 era that I was pretty burned out by the time G4 actually took to the skies...

And I had no idea that G4 would be around after all of the dust settled. I too was so involved with Tristar, that I did not even consider the venture to G4.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5792 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4205 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 3):
Air 21 was a disaster in all too many ways except that there's potential in under-served markets. Its big market was FAT-LAS.



Quoting Ridgid727 (Reply 4):
Do expound on that if you will. I remember seeing them in SLC, and they had a flight one day to GJT.

WhatUSaid was very involved with Air 21 so he knows more but from what I saw a few of the problems involved:

** Taking to the air underfunded. Air 21 was in organization when ValuJet crashed which bascially dried up investor interest. They raised I believe $4 million and started flying hoping to show the concept worked.

** Rapid route expansion with low daily frequency. Air 21 started with FAT-LAS and FAT-SFO but in a few months added non-stops out of Fresno to LAX, COS, SLC, GJT, as well as PSP and I think MRY. But they did that with 3 aircraft which meant low frequencies which made it hard to attract biz passengers.

There were, I was told, some internal management issues, but I don't think I'll get into that since I wasn't intimate with the details.

Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 3):
G4 was something that Mitch Allee wanted to bring to FAT. He brought in a couple good people from Air 21 and a few, uh, well....not so good, and packed FAT-LAS. They were going to call the carrier Westjet Express until a certain Canadian carrier talked them out of it. Even in it's first years, there was a dedication to quality service and value that was pretty rare then and holds true today.

lol, well "not so good" is a bit polite but OoooKaaay.

Just to correct you, the name change was not because of the Canadian carrier. The real name issue was with West Jet Air Center, an aviation company in Rapid City, SD.
http://www.airlineinfo.com/Sites/Dai...irline/web-content/ostpdf7/714.pdf

Pre-BK Allegiant made some bad moves in their expansion. For example, they started LGB routes but then didn't do much advertising of the service.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4139 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 5):

Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 3):
Air 21 was a disaster in all too many ways except that there's potential in under-served markets. Its big market was FAT-LAS.

Yes, and close to the end, it was insane. I remember some type of marketing agreement with WN? They had F-28's all over the place. I was going to hop on one of their flights in LAX once, and as I saw the condition of the plane as it taxied past, I decided to fly the Tristar 146 back to Vegas.

It wasn't Air 21 who had the agreement with WN, it was the Funjet Express boys. The agreement with WN was actually the beginnings of something that had promise and is worth another thread (especially for everyone who ever thought of WN having a feeder from medium size markets). If I remember correctly, Air 21 and Funjet (using Tri-Star) at this point were flying at the same time. Those F28's were right out of USAir, most not even painted, other than to mark out "US Airways", and half the fleet was being parted out to keep the remainder going. Some of those F28's were pretty beat up.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 6):
Just to correct you, the name change was not because of the Canadian carrier. The real name issue was with West Jet Air Center, an aviation company in Rapid City, SD.
http://www.airlineinfo.com/Sites/Dai...irline/web-content/ostpdf7/714.pdf

Really. I thought it was out of Canada.... Oh, well.... I wasn't with the G4 people - just admired them for the "class" they all showed from day one. Mitch assembled some great crews.... I just remember thinking "Allegiant" what sort of name is that for an airline?

I will say, once you get aviation fuel in your blood, it's hard to not want to step right back into start-ups.... It's a rush until reality hits. Of, course, Air 21 is the exception. That was a nightmare. Somebody ought to use Air 21 as the basis for a case study on "airline failures for dummies"...

G4, on the other hand, great reading then and now.


User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4103 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 6):
** Rapid route expansion with low daily frequency. Air 21 started with FAT-LAS and FAT-SFO but in a few months added non-stops out of Fresno to LAX, COS, SLC, GJT, as well as PSP and I think MRY. But they did that with 3 aircraft which meant low frequencies which made it hard to attract biz passengers.

Initial Air 21 routes were FAT-SFO-PSP-LAS-FAT and return. SFO-PSP actually did quite well.

Air 21 expanded in FAT with nonstops to SLC (flying up Delta's tailpipe) which made no sense at all, but that was better than the original idea of FAT-PROVO (I am serious) to capture the LDS population in Fresno. They did FAT-SLC-COS...at a time when Western Pacific was in business.

FYI, Air 21 was bankrolled by a number of Fresno investors, including Joe Levy, who had the Gottschalks Department store chain that recently closed. A good number of people lost money in that pathetic airline - myself included. Many of us invested for the community not for the airline or even the hope of making back our investment. At that time, FAT's service was pretty pathetic.

Ok, we're way off topic.... But, for G4 to come in after Air 21 says something about having a vision for underserved markets.


User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4015 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 8):
Air 21 expanded in FAT with nonstops to SLC (flying up Delta's tailpipe) which made no sense at all, but that was better than the original idea of FAT-PROVO (I am serious) to capture the LDS population in Fresno

at that time, Im sure it wouldn't have worked, however, G4 has talked on several occasions with Provo airport officials about a Provo-Mesa AZ flight. Im not sure where that is at this time


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24884 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

I recall prior to Ch11 and the grounding of ops G4 was attempting to secure what would have been for it a large charter track program from SoCal which it planned to run from LGB. At the end the operator decided to use scheduled service seats.

For Air 21 I remember their noisy F-28s quite well at LAX. Air21 bounched between T-3 and TBIT for counters and when at TBIT just about never was assigned a gate and had to make use of the remote gates. On several occasions I recall their bookings were so low, they would cancel the LAWA bus, and instead drive the passenegrs to/from the terminal in a single shot in a car or van themselves. I recall once when out looking at the plane at the remote, the arriving passenger count coming off was merely 3!



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2433 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3962 times:
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Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 8):
FYI, Air 21 was bankrolled by a number of Fresno investors,

Boy, Fresno doesn't have much luck backing airlines. Air 21, Far West Airlines. Maybe someday...



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3866 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 7):
The agreement with WN was actually the beginnings of something that had promise and is worth another thread (especially for everyone who ever thought of WN having a feeder from medium size markets).

Please do start that new thread...or at the very least, expound on this development. I would be very interested in how that agreement looked (or was going to look).


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5792 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2727 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 8):
Ok, we're way off topic.... But, for G4 to come in after Air 21 says something about having a vision for underserved markets.

Wasn't the original Air 21 business plan written by the guy from Exeter? I always forget his name, but he was a pilot (commercial or cargo, I can't remember this morning) He saw a niche.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
On several occasions I recall their bookings were so low, they would cancel the LAWA bus, and instead drive the passenegrs to/from the terminal in a single shot in a car or van themselves. I recall once when out looking at the plane at the remote, the arriving passenger count coming off was merely 3!

FAT-LAS was the star among the routes, it was typically near full when I used the flight. Since the aircraft were never refurbished they still had a row or 2 of first class seats that Air 21 would upgrade or upsell, usually saw the "high roller" or "high roller wannabe" types to Vegas occupying those seats. Although WhatUSaid may have flown in those seats once or twice.  Wink

The few times I used the FAT-SFO flight it was decent loads.

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 11):
Boy, Fresno doesn't have much luck backing airlines. Air 21, Far West Airlines. Maybe someday...

Don't forget that WestAir was a Fresno company before Mesa bought it. Allegiant was started in Fresno and based here until Maury Gallagher stepped in.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2433 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2592 times:
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Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13):
Don't forget that WestAir was a Fresno company before Mesa bought it

True, but since they started in Nor Cal and were based in Chico prior to FAT, I was referring to home grown FAT lines. As for G4, they have really done well and I hope it continues. Guess it's the shining star from San Joaquin Valley.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2430 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13):


Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 8):
Ok, we're way off topic.... But, for G4 to come in after Air 21 says something about having a vision for underserved markets.

Wasn't the original Air 21 business plan written by the guy from Exeter? I always forget his name, but he was a pilot (commercial or cargo, I can't remember this morning) He saw a niche.

Yep. He had a vision until a certain CEO of a certain former American Eagle carrier stepped in....

Hey FAT, a question for you. Who was the driving force behind Sun Pacific, the start-up that never took to the air? They had planned FAT-ONT with DC-9s and were using ONT as their base, I think, to other markets...


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5792 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2271 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 15):
Hey FAT, a question for you. Who was the driving force behind Sun Pacific, the start-up that never took to the air? They had planned FAT-ONT with DC-9s and were using ONT as their base, I think, to other markets...

That was what about 1980 or 81? The name escapes me right now but they were also planning like BFL, SFO and some others.

FYI, WhatUSaid, you might find this article about BFL's new terminal interesting. Looks like they are facing a cash crunch due to the $1 million annual debt payments while enplanements have dropped. And then of course there is the "international terminal" that now sits empty.
http://www.bakersfield.com/news/loca...-for-new-airport-terminal-grounded



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1966 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 7):
It wasn't Air 21 who had the agreement with WN, it was the Funjet Express boys. The agreement with WN was actually the beginnings of something that had promise and is worth another thread (especially for everyone who ever thought of WN having a feeder from medium size markets). If I remember correctly, Air 21 and Funjet (using Tri-Star) at this point were flying at the same time. Those F28's were right out of USAir, most not even painted, other than to mark out "US Airways", and half the fleet was being parted out to keep the remainder going. Some of those F28's were pretty beat up.

I have one of their timetables that showed tons of flights. It had a quite a few WN flights too.

And the F-28's indeed were showing some age. I however really enjoyed seeing their paint scheme finally come to LAS. The flights were pretty packed, as I saw them come in first hand. I wonder what would have been if they had survived? I was really hoping they would make it. I too fought tooth and nail to keep Tristar airborne. It was a very special place to work.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 6):
** Taking to the air underfunded. Air 21 was in organization when ValuJet crashed which bascially dried up investor interest. They raised I believe $4 million and started flying
hoping to show the concept worked.

$4 Million bucks? Wow, that sounds like spare change needed to get an airline airborne nowadays. Incredible.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 6):
** Rapid route expansion with low daily frequency. Air 21 started with FAT-LAS and FAT-SFO but in a few months added non-stops out of Fresno to LAX, COS, SLC, GJT, as well as PSP and I think MRY. But they did that with 3 aircraft which meant low frequencies which made it hard to attract biz passengers.

There were, I was told, some internal management issues, but I don't think I'll get into that since I wasn't intimate with the details.

Is that all they had was 3 aircraft?



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineIcebird757 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 662 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1959 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 2):
IIRC, G4 flew just a few DC-9's. I remember a 10 or 20 series, and a 50 series I believe.

We started with DC-9-21 N127NK which is now with Perris Valley Sky Dive. Then we got 3 DC-9-51 series N410EA, N411EA and N414EA.

Stephen



LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
User currently offlineJet13 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

Is allegiant air currently in bankruptcy?


- Nick Ullom | KFSD | Flown: A320,B738,MD83,B752,MD88,CRJ2, CRJ9,E190,E175,C206T | FSD DEN MSP CVG MCO PHX OMA LAX JKJ A
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5792 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1934 times:



Quoting Jet13 (Reply 19):
Is allegiant air currently in bankruptcy?

No.

They are currently one of the most profitable US airlines, profitable every year since 2003.

They went into bankruptcy back in December 2000. They originally started as just another LCC, flying flights on the west coast. But that didn't work.

Current CEO Maury Gallagher invested in the company, brought it out of bankruptcy and wrote the current business plan that they now successfully follow.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
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