Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
IATA: Premium Pax Percentage Plummets Periously  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 4487 times:

Ok, so I took alliterative license.  Wink

The numbers are horrible. Look at this chart:


And this one.


Here's a link to the article.
http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...oming-of-air-travel-declines/page1

This is very sobering:

Quote:
IATA notes that while premium passengers account for only 7-10% of total numbers, they are responsible for 25-30% of passenger revenues. Premium fares fell at an accelerating rate through Apr-2009 to a level around 20% lower than last year. Moreover, IATA observes, “premium seats are being discounted on average much more than economy seats, despite the latter usually being the more price-sensitive segment of the market”.

The bottom line is a further 20% decline in average premium fares on international markets in May-2009 translates into a shocking 40-45% fall in premium revenues.

The end of the (aviation) world as we know it?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

I think this means what we knew the writing on the wall said all along: that airlines will have to learn to make money on all of their passengers, not just break even on economy and have the head end bear the brunt of the costs. A lesson that is not lost on WN, B6, or any other carrier who flies aircraft with an all-economy layout, BTW...

Wish your charts also showed belly cargo, which, for airlines like SQ, also pays for a significant portion of trip costs...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (4 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 4407 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
Wish your charts also showed belly cargo, which, for airlines like SQ, also pays for a significant portion of trip costs...

I would love to see that too. If I recall correctly, there are a few airlines like British Airways that are very adept at exploiting the cargo capacity of their 744s and 777s for revenue (they don't have a dedicated cargo fleet, do they?). However, everything I've read indicates that air cargo is tanking along with premium pax revenue when compared year over year.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12783 posts, RR: 100
Reply 3, posted (4 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 4380 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The end of the (aviation) world as we know it?

 no 

Shocking? Yes.

Its time to retrench. Due to cost cutting at many businesses, they will no longer pay for premium travel for most of their employees. Expect the backlash to continue (e.g., the current fuss over the retreat on Social security will force a cram down in government and contractor travel budgets).

But airlines can survive and adapt. Sadly, this means a retrenchment on premium cabins.  Sad Its supply and demand and currently there is little demand with lots of supply.

Why no numbers on South America? Are none of the airlines in the IATA?


The Sad fact is aviation lags the economy. Before air travel recovers, the economy must first stabilize and then find a growth path again. Only then will airlines acheive the yeild they need to grow. Thus the last in the chain will be aircraft manufacturing.  Sad

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12783 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (4 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 4364 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This article would have been a better link on the decline in premium traffic (link from article in launching post).

http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...in-focus-as-premium-revenues/page1

I also find the distribution of the losses interesting:
http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...osses-to-hit-usd9-billion-in-2009/

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (4 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 4345 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 3):
Why no numbers on South America? Are none of the airlines in the IATA?

For sure JJ and LA are IATA members. Don't know the reason for the information not to be available.

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The end of the (aviation) world as we know it?


Not in fact, but a moment to airlines think about how to deal with small demand for the fares they use to sell a year ago. Charge lower fares ? Change seat configuration to offer more leisure seats ? Reduce frequencies and increase Y fares ? In my view is the same as we saw during 2-4 years, airlines increasing frequencies and establishing new routes... now is the moment to reduce frequencies and drop some routes.
The problem is that all airlines try to wait and see if the competitor will cut something before them.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (4 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 4320 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 3):
Why no numbers on South America? Are none of the airlines in the IATA?


For sure JJ and LA are IATA members. Don't know the reason for the information not to be available.

That article was from a regional airline organization that focuses on the Asia/Pacific region.

You can find details of traffic changes for the month of May and year to date in the actual IATA press releas here (link to detailed data by region at the bottom):
http://iata.org/pressroom/pr/2009-06-25-01.htm

Excerpts re Latin America:

Passenger

Latin American carriers saw their traffic decline by 9.2% in May compared to the previous year. Against a capacity increase of 0.2%, the load factor plummeted to 64.7%. That is a 6.7 percentage point drop compared to May 2008 and the lowest load factor among all the regions.

Cargo

Most regions were relatively aligned in the severity of the freight declines. Latin American carriers were the worst performers with a 21.0% fall, followed by
Africa (-20.0%), Europe (-19.2%), North America (-18.8%), and Asia Pacific (-18.1%). Middle East carriers were the exception with a 3.7% fall.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12283 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (4 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 4257 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 3):
Its time to retrench. Due to cost cutting at many businesses, they will no longer pay for premium travel for most of their employees.

And many are being told they can't fly at all, and to use other means such as teleconferencing to accomplish the same goals.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4020 times:

What has got to be sobering for the industry is that even the Middle East is showing declines. I recall reading earlier that they were well positioned to weather the storm. That may be so, but they are not immune.

IATA uses the term "De-globalization". They may be on to something....



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3927 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The end of the (aviation) world as we know it?

I'm not sure it is the end of the world as we know it but it could be the start of a new trend. Maybe we will see a reduction especially on long haul international in the number of full J & F seats and more airlines adding Y+ seating. I for one (like one would make a difference!) would be willing to use Y+ but J, even discounted, is generally out of my reach.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
airlines will have to learn to make money on all of their passengers, not just break even on economy and have the head end bear the brunt of the costs

..either a massive reduction in capacity to match demand at increased fare levels and/or and increase in the overall economy will be needed before I think that will take effect but you are correct, we may see the end of the dirt cheap fares, especially TATL in the future. Airlines can't keep giving away a huge chunk of their product at a loss.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30415 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3887 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
What has got to be sobering for the industry is that even the Middle East is showing declines.

But it is still holding up better than anywhere else in the world. And Economy travel is climbing strongly.



The interesting aspect will be how this affects future long-haul fleet purchases. A year ago, the pundits were claiming airlines had to have A380-800s so they could install large and lavish premium cabins to attract all those dollars floating about. Now, will they need an A380-800 to pack in 500-600 Economy seats in order to generate enough aggregate revenue to maintain a steady profit?

And will airlines switch from the 777-300ER to the 747-8? Many airlines switched from the 744 to the 77W because they could maintain similar-sized premium cabins with much smaller Economy cabins that could be squeezed for extra revenue through the Law of Supply and Demand. But with premium cabins shrinking and Economy cabins expanding, the 748 offers more space for more seats, strong operating economics thanks to the GEnx engines, and similar payload volume and more payload and greater range at MZFW than the 77W.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3827 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
But with premium cabins shrinking and Economy cabins expanding, the 748 offers more space for more seats, strong operating economics thanks to the GEnx engines, and similar payload volume and more payload and greater range at MZFW than the 77W.

This is a compelling argument for the 748I. When the air cargo market returns to growth, this will be a very attractive selling point.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineArabAirX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3788 times:

No amount of useless showers or double bed "Suites" will make up for the fact that premium travel could well be extinct in its present form in under five years.

British Airways alone has had spectacular double-digit premium losses for almost a year now, particularly in Asia - I find inconceivable that SQ or QF are immune while flying the WhaleJet.

Yield is king, while this elite travel continues to report courtesy of IATA, I wonder how many customers will have to rethink their premium models??


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30415 posts, RR: 84
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3710 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting ArabAirX (Reply 12):
No amount of useless showers or double bed "Suites" will make up for the fact that premium travel could well be extinct in its present form in under five years.

Oh it will come back. Two US finance companies have already announced multi-billion quarterly profits and the Dow Jones had a nice Friday.

When the Tech Boom became the Tech *BOOM*, premium cabin travel plummeted. But a new bubble (financing) replaced it. Now that the financing bubble has burst, a new bubble will form and within five years the front cabins will be stuffed again with five-figure fares.

All those eco-companies the Western governments are pouring trillions into, for example, could be the next boom market, though it will be kind of ironic to have "ecological" companies spending billions to fly people around in space-inefficient premium cabins.  Silly


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3546 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
But a new bubble (financing) replaced it. Now that the financing bubble has burst, a new bubble will form and within five years the front cabins will be stuffed again with five-figure fares.

Many major airline CEO's disagree, and believe the premium class market willl never return to pre-crisis levels. BA and LH CEO's have recently made such comments, and they're not alone.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30415 posts, RR: 84
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3509 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Many major airline CEO's disagree, and believe the premium class market willl never return to pre-crisis levels. BA and LH CEO's have recently made such comments, and they're not alone.

Then they're probably setting themselves up for endless posts in this forum about "why are BA and LH premium cabins so lousy?" just like we have today about the US carriers.  Smile


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3492 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Many major airline CEO's disagree, and believe the premium class market willl never return to pre-crisis levels. BA and LH CEO's have recently made such comments, and they're not alone.

Then they're probably setting themselves up for endless posts in this forum about "why are BA and LH premium cabins so lousy?" just like we have today about the US carriers.

It's not related to service but to expectations that in the post-financial crisis world, companies are less likely to revert to their old free-spending ways, and many of the current travel restrictions that limit access to premium cabins are likely to remain. And new technology (e.g. more advanced video-conferencing systems) will make at least some business travel less necessary than in the past. And where they do travel, a higher percentage will be in lower classes of service.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13005 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

We may be seeing a long term lower demand for Premium class seats, to me perhaps on the order of 15% for long-haul international and perhaps 25% or more for domestic USA longer flights from 2007-early 2008 numbers. There could be a slight return as in some financial deals done by those who would mainly use Premium services, one has to deal face to face.

As many other have suggested here and elsewhere, all companies are in a huge squeeze to hold down costs including travel costs. Clients of many companies will not pay for premium travel. Improvements in internet based conferencing are reducing the need for many in person meetings and confrences. I would also suggest that many of those who were in the Premium seats as well as their employers may be glad to not travel and may continue to limit their travel due to the loss of time in travel. Far too many flights are delayed, getting to/from and through airports is taking too much time from their home jobs and their families, as well as the many other hassles of travel that has made travel a burden.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8160 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

The decline in premium demand is not new. Airlines have been cutting 1st class seats for years, and the standard has become 2 class configurations, instead of the 3 class configuration that we used to know 10-20 years ago. Simply put, it's hard to justify the exorbitant amount of money that airlines want for a slightly bigger seat and a meal that wouldn't qualify as first class in any restaurant outside of an airplane. The difference between a premium fare and a discount economy fare is just too great.

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The end of the (aviation) world as we know it?

No, why? They'll just have to come down from the unsustainable state that they're in and adjust. There are plenty of airlines that will be making money, even without premium seats. Airlines and their workers just have to accept the harsh reality that the good old days are over. If passengers are not willing to pay $3K for a 4 hour flight, it's unrealistic to expect a salary in the hundreds of thousands of dollars annualy.


User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

And a good place to begin: Figure out what to charge for a Y class that is a pleasure to fly.

Price includes one checked bag - this protects those who use only modest sized carryons

A reasonable pitch - I would suspect that about 34-35 inches would do

Water and restrooms always free, moderate prices for other beverages and food

This would be for the new standard pitched and serviced seats. Reduced prices available for lesser pitches and services. Goal in new standards would be to restore the flight as not being the most negative portion of ones trip.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30415 posts, RR: 84
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3395 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
It's not related to service but to expectations that in the post-financial crisis world, companies are less likely to revert to their old free-spending ways, and many of the current travel restrictions that limit access to premium cabins are likely to remain. And new technology (e.g. more advanced video-conferencing systems) will make at least some business travel less necessary than in the past. And where they do travel, a higher percentage will be in lower classes of service.

Each and every one of those arguments was made after the Tech BOOM, after 9/11 and after SARS, and yet two years ago airlines were spending hundreds of millions redoing their premium cabins.

I'm confident it will come back.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12783 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3344 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 19):
And a good place to begin: Figure out what to charge for a Y class that is a pleasure to fly.

Y class is too often picked out off the net on discount. Its tough to pay for a higher service level when too much of the customer base is trying to be cheap. Business class is for those willing to pay 3X more. Look at how small Y+ cabins are. Usually with fewer seats than J. Why? The 'slight premium' market is small.

In my opinion, this 'hunkering down' will last 2+ years with a return to premium travel over the next 7 years. Oh wait, we've seen this cycle before.  spin 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):

I'm confident it will come back.

 bigthumbsup 

It will return. When we have the majority of a.net stating premium traffic will not come back, it might actually be time to invest in airline stocks.  Wink

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
And many are being told they can't fly at all, and to use other means such as teleconferencing to accomplish the same goals.

 checkmark  That works, until it doesn't. Air travel is required for expanding business. Since business isn't expanding, video telcons are good enough. But there will come a time in the business cycle when the profits off of the new business pays for the travel.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):

But it is still holding up better than anywhere else in the world. And Economy travel is climbing strongly.

 checkmark  Between now and then the trick will be to minimize CASM while offering a product *just* enough better than the competition so that the reviews point to a good value. Airlines should still offer premium seats, they will just have to reconfigure to having fewer per aircraft.

This also will tip the balance *slightly* more towards hubbing. Point to point requires premium traffic to pay for the smaller routes higher CASM (due to the smaller aircraft). Obviously 'thick routes' and 'Trunk routes' will be the easiest to maintain.

Frequency also needs the premium traffic to pay for all of the flights. As long as they hibernate, we'll see more service reductions. But the traffic will return. Its just years away from returning. Those who have short memories forget the cyclic nature of the economy. This is a worse down cycle, but there will be an up cycle.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9943 posts, RR: 96
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3312 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The end of the (aviation) world as we know it?

Come on guys!.
What you're seeing now is not fundamentally different to what we saw a decade or so ago, and all of the same drama queen comments were made then too...
It's called a cycle.....

Quoting ArabAirX (Reply 12):
No amount of useless showers or double bed "Suites" will make up for the fact that premium travel could well be extinct in its present form in under five years.

 Wow!
The human race could be extinct in its present form in under five years (gods above - I'm starting to sound like Zvezda...  faint   Wink )
But seriously..
Premium traffic will be back...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Each and every one of those arguments was made after the Tech BOOM, after 9/11 and after SARS, and yet two years ago airlines were spending hundreds of millions redoing their premium cabins.

I'm confident it will come back.

 highfive 
Given that I'll be sitting in the comfort of CO's businessfirst again next week, I've got to agree  Smile

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):
When we have the majority of a.net stating premium traffic will not come back, it might actually be time to invest in airline stocks

Yup. A-dram (sorry, A-net) has an appalling track record in predicting the future.  Wink

Where do I buy?  Smile

Rgds


User currently offlineArabAirX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3299 times:



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):
Premium traffic will be back...

Not at previous levels we've been used to seeing  Wink


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
BA and LH CEO's have recently made such comments, and they're not alone.

Then the LH CEO must be kicking himself for just adding F class to all a346's...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
companies are less likely to revert to their old free-spending ways

I guess not entirely on the same level as before, but you can expect the top brass to be flying F and J again as soon as the economy improves. But I can imagine that the somewhat lower management functions will now have to fly Y+ or even Y, where J was the norm for them now. Some cost cutting measures stay, some will go when the economy improves.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):
Look at how small Y+ cabins are. Usually with fewer seats than J. Why? The 'slight premium' market is small.

I do expect this market to grow. It has potential to grow from two sides. It does seem to be the trend that more and more airlines are adding Y+, even if they are small cabins. So it seems it is a market segment that can't be ignored anymore.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):
In my opinion, this 'hunkering down' will last 2+ years with a return to premium travel over the next 7 years. Oh wait, we've seen this cycle before.

Yes, just like the economy runs in cycles, air travel follows. So this current cycle will be broken again for an upward trend in premium travel.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
25 PVG : I, for one, will never fly in coach on any flight over 6 hours. I used to do it when I first started extensive LH travel 20 years ago, and I just can
26 Airbazar : And loosing money hand over fist on them. However, keep in mind that most airlines were upgrading their business class at the expense of First class,
27 Stitch : Airlines don't invest that kind of money in a product when they expect no return on it. They invest in it because if they didn't, they would see thei
28 PITIngres : That's great if you can afford paying something like 3x the coach fare. All too often, at least for me, the choice is fly in Y or don't go at all. (O
29 Viscount724 : What I find strange is that until the 1980s, carriers weren't trying to outdo their competitors by continually improving their inflight products. Lon
30 Lightsaber : I hope you are right. I'd like to see Y+ grow into a viable niche. However... I hope you don't mind me not holding my breath. I think that those will
31 PVG : Everyone makes their choices. If my company expected me to travel on LH flights more than 2 or 3x a year, I would negotiate in my deal that I get to
32 PITIngres : If you're working for a large company, at least the ones I've had experience with, there's no such thing. Expense and travel policies are applied cor
33 Kappel : LOL, of course I don't mind you holding your breath. But if look at the trend, a few years ago there were hardly any carriers offering Y+. This is no
34 Airbazar : Exactly. Most airlines have a flawed business plan that focuses on market share rather than profits. Keeping up with the Jones' does not equate profi
35 PVG : Noted. I have many friends who work for large companies. Most them are at fairly senior levels and get to sit up front. I had one friend who worked f
36 Kappel : Are you saying he put on 40 lbs and aged 10 years due to flying Y or due to his job? Well, if you look at the profitability of airlines like AF/KL an
37 AirNZ : Why exactly? On what grounds are you arbitarily deciding what routes can be flown out of any country? How on earth are you explaining that flying in
38 Stitch : The problem for the airlines is the hard product in Business Class has become so strong, it’s pretty much forced First Class to become “an oasis o
39 Par13del : So the funds BA are borowwing are to update their fleet by reducing Premium Capacity and increasing Y capacity to better prepare themselves for the n
40 GRIVely : As a business person responsible for making decisions about how our employees fly I have to draw attention to the fact that airlines have effectively
41 PVG : Well he was flying 12 hours + flights 2 to 6x a month. He was very fit until he started doing all that travelling. I'll admit that it was an extreme
42 PITIngres : Bingo. That is precisely the rationalization I hear over and over. And, in the larger company, it's obvious to me that the corporation does not belie
43 MogandoCI : How can companies expect their employees not look like a corpse when they fly a 12-hour RED-EYE flight in economy and attend an all-day meeting at 9a
44 Lightsaber : I do wonder at how much of the premium hit is due to the ultra-premium market having moved on to business jets. I'm aware that business jet travel is
45 PITIngres : As best as I can tell, the corporate theory is that it's a LOT cheaper to send you out a day ahead, pay the $150-200 hotel for the extra day, rather
46 AirlineCritic : Most people are pretty worn out after a 12 hour flight, regardless of class they fly in. I know its much better in business, and probably even more s
47 Stitch : Folks should be careful to not make all-encompassing statements on justifying or dismissing premium cabin travel on long-haul (or even short-haul) seg
48 AADC10 : The key difference is that before the 1980s was regulation and under regulation airlines made money on coach tickets. Now most of the profit on a tra
49 PITIngres : I don't dispute that, and I believe we are basically agreeing. The key point being that in many companies (I believe most companies, but have no proo
50 FrmrCAPCADET : When I have seen Y+, it has considerably wider seats as well as much more pitch, I suspect more than 20% foot print. In the 'classic' days of flying
51 LTBEWR : A poster here noted the switch in recent years to private-biz jets. That demand dropped off dramatically since last fall, especially after the Detroit
52 PVG : Yes, when you spend 6+ months a year on the road, weekends at home are a precious commodity!
53 Lightsaber : Fair enough. Y at $800 Y+ at $1,050 for 120% of the floor space For every bit more of floor space, the argument stays the same, but the Y+ price cree
54 Astuteman : Have to say that (thank God) our company hasn't changed it's policy yet. I guess that we're not feeling the squeeze quite the same as other businesse
55 Brilondon : This is a little extreme I think. There have been down turns in the past and look we still are flying even more so then thirty years ago. The airline
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Airline Ranking Per Pax (IATA Stats) posted Thu Jun 22 2000 16:00:37 by BOS-CDG
DL Upgrades South America On Iata Winter (GIG/EZE) posted Mon Jul 13 2009 21:13:29 by LipeGIG
Marginal Cost Of An Extra Pax? posted Mon Jul 13 2009 12:00:03 by Luv2cattlecall
Any B707/DC-8/DC-10 Pax Aircraft Left In Service? posted Thu Jul 9 2009 09:03:11 by United Airline
707 Still In Pax Service?!?! posted Wed Jul 8 2009 18:53:12 by Aviateur
AMS: 737 Pilot Has Pax Removed And Flies Out Empty posted Tue Jun 30 2009 18:47:56 by BuyantUkhaa
TSA Abuses Pax At STL, Pax Sues! posted Fri Jun 26 2009 22:00:08 by Luv2cattlecall
Pax Thermal Scan At NRT posted Sun Jun 21 2009 11:37:03 by Cvg2lga
More US1549 Pax Complain About Compensation posted Thu Jun 11 2009 20:45:09 by Eghansen
Top 10 Indian Airports By Pax Or Movements posted Thu Jun 11 2009 03:34:02 by Pe@rson