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UK Transport Minister To Airlines: Stop Winging  
User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1813 posts, RR: 8
Posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/gatwick-airport-news-160709.html

Lord Adonis tells airlines to 'stop winging' about APD increases and that they are 'doomed if they dont pay their fair share.'

What he doesnt seem to know is, airlines are doomed with this increase. People will simply by-pass LHR and go to AMS/CDG/FRA et al.

Its about time we scrapped this useless money making scheme, but we all know that all ready. I just find it a bit unprofessional for a Lord and a minister to say bluntly 'stop winging'. Mind you i hardly expect much more.


Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

I know I'm looking at booking an award ticket ex-UK in Business Class for next year, and if I leave from the UK in Business, it's $150 in tax or so. If I take a short flight in coach to AMS and connect there, it's about $40 in tax.

Hmmm...I'll save the $110 here to avoid this stupid tax by the UK.


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 951 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5633 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
if I leave from the UK in Business, it's $150 in tax or so

Thats what it's been. 80GBP (US$150 aprox)
what is it going up to?

The departure TAX in AMS just got lowered from US$70 to $35-40 They realized they lost revenue with people booking away.

I love going to London but don't because of the high tax.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5571 times:
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It seems pretty inappropriate to tell them to 'stop whingeing'. At least I assume that is what he said - strange that the spelling is wrong in the airport news source quoted.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1813 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5530 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
strange that the spelling is wrong in the airport news source quoted.

We all got it wrong. Its Whinging! I thought it looked wrong when i typed it.

But your right. Its extremely inappropriate of him. Even if the economy was in better times and the airlines weren't getting pounded this rise would be ridiculous. Partly because its too high and partly because it is completely pointless for its 'cause'. The Government are just seeing this as a way to boost cash reserves so they can waste it on things, not the environment. Like their expenses actually!

The Government must be extremely short sighted to not see the down side of this. They are purely seeing this from a money angle. But even that will backfire when everyone forgets London and the UK and uses the continent. This could just be the final nail in the coffin for UK airlines. This APD is not only going to directly affect Passenger numbers traveling to/from or through the UK, but also directly and indirectly help rise unemployment when companies, and indeed maybe even a few UK airlines, go under.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12466 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5350 times:

Looks like the government is the only one trying to "wing" it!

It is a very punitive increase in taxes, whatever way you look at it; I wonder what is to stop pax going over to AMS or CDG (well, ok, maybe not that desperate!) and get cheaper fares from there?

It'll be interesting to see what kind of trends this level of tax develops. The transport minister is certainly not seeing the reality, because at the end of the day, it's the passenger and not the airline who pays this and if they go elsewhere, you have emptier aircraft flying out of the UK, which is more environmentally unfriendly and also, no incentive for airlines to introduce more fuel efficient, environmentally friendly airlines.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5284 times:

Being an Americanist I have to ask - what the heck is Whinging????? Is that the same as whining (pronounced why'-ning)? I've seen it before in posts here and have been wondering.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21526 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 5226 times:

its in the american dictionary. it's similar to whining, but more of the "sky is falling" variety.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDogBreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 5223 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
Being an Americanist I have to ask - what the heck is Whinging????? Is that the same as whining (pronounced why'-ning)? I've seen it before in posts here and have been wondering.

Yes HAL, it essentially means the same thing.

Unfortunately we're seeing the death throes of a Government hell bent on taking this country and everyone in it so far into a deficit on failed policies and gutless management, that they can't see the woods for the trees.

It's just too easy to 'rape' Airlines and the passengers that wish to travel. But they fail to see that they're jeopardising the massive amounts of tourism revenue that will undoubtedly go elsewhere. With the end result that the amount of lost revenue will far and above exceed the revenue received from the APD.

Bring on the next general election so that we can send this farce led by an unelected Prime Minister to the dustbin of history. Unfortunately I don't see much help on this issue from the Conservatives though.



Truth, Honour, Loyalty
User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 5167 times:

This is yet another example of New Labour's complete and utter fiscal incompetence. They still haven't grasped that lower taxes = higher tax revenue.

They introduced a 50% top rate tax so that the rich "pay their fair share" although many believe that it will actually cost the government money rather than raise it. Now they want to double APD which will further pressure airlines' profits and ultimately lead to less profits so less tax paid....dur!!! But this won't just affect airlines. If it is too expensive people simply won't come here, so it will be punishing the whole tourism industry. Well done Labour!

Perhaps, though, Labour's big scheme is to force airlines into bankruptcy so that they can be nationalised. Comrade Brown has done quite well recently at furthering socialism in the UK.


User currently offlineEurohub From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 5103 times:



Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 9):
Comrade Brown has done quite well recently at furthering socialism in the UK.

For a man oft credited as some sort of fiscal genius, his Government's tax raising policies appear to be extremely naive. Unsurprisingly and as predicted, the cut in VAT has done little to boost the economy but has left a hole in the exchequer's revenue. Fuel Duty and APD amongst other measures allow the Government to bolster its green credentials but beneath that thin veneer, they're just trying to cover the shortfall in tax revenue that they created in the first place. And that's before we start to tackle the National Debt...



Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

I look forward to reading exactly what Lord Adonis said when the transcript of his appearance on 15 July 2009 in front of the UK Parliament's Transport select committee inquiry into the Future of Aviation becomes available (the video is already available).

Back in November last year, following the UK Government's announcement of the planned very steep rises in the UK's air passenger duty (APD) I did some quick calculations on the environmental impact and carbon price of taking a flight from LHR to AKL. One can only conclude that if as was said when this was announced, this is a green tax, based on the current price of carbon from emissions trading what is proposed seems to represent a gross over recovery at least for long-distance air travel.

It has also been asked whether this was protectionist (akin to increasing an import tariff). There has been considerable concern in the Caribbean which depends on tourism. The way the UK APD will work based on the distance to capital cities, you will pay more for travel to the Caribbean than to Hawaii!

What is more I have seen nothing to suggest that the UK APD drops once the EU emissions trading scheme covers aviation. Given a choice between a carbon tax and an emissions trading scheme it seems that the UK answer is "Yes please".

I understand that Lord Adonis is keen to see high speed rail expand in the UK. Certainly a connection with high speed rail at LHR may have merit but readers may be interested in some recent US research by Chester and Horvath based on the life-cycle emissions impact of the various transport modes. If construction is taken into account the climate change impact of heavy rail seems to be worse than for aviation.



John Macilree
User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 4975 times:



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
We all got it wrong. Its Whinging! I thought it looked wrong when i typed it.

But your right

Almost correct, except that it's "you're".



B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1813 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 4895 times:



Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 12):

God im terrible! Thanks. Does anyone know how i can change the thread title to say 'Whinging'? Or maybe if the mods are looking they can do it!  Smile

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
Being an Americanist I have to ask - what the heck is Whinging????? Is that the same as whining (pronounced why'-ning)? I've seen it before in posts here and have been wondering.

As dogbreath says, it means the same. Effectively Lord Adonis is telling the airlines to 'stop moaning'!

Quoting DogBreath (Reply 8):
It's just too easy to 'rape' Airlines and the passengers that wish to travel.

Couldnt agree more. Airline and air transport is such an easy target. Ive always said i cannot understand how shipping gets away so lightly. Massive polluter.

This government seems to think they are looking good to the rest of the World. What they dont realise is everyone knows that this money raised is going straight into their pockets. And, quite embarrassingly, everyone but the Government knows that this tax will only drive passengers away. As the B747-4U3, they will only raise less money in the long run. I fear the only way they will realise this error and back down is once they implement this and see what a mess they make.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7602 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 4833 times:

B747-4U3

That only applies up to a point.

Question is, where is that point?


User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1784 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 4265 times:



Quoting DogBreath (Reply 8):
Unfortunately I don't see much help on this issue from the Conservatives though.

I don't see much from the Conservatives if i'm being honest. Better the devil you know?



Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineLuke From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 4146 times:



Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 15):
I don't see much from the Conservatives if i'm being honest. Better the devil you know?

Yeah, Labour seem to be much less anti-aviation than the Conservatives. For example, Labour are supporting the LHR 3rd runway plans while the Conservatives seem to believe that a few rail links to the north of the country will be a suitable substitute for the extra runway - despite the fact that most of LHR demand is of course for international and intercontinental services.

Aviation is just an easy target for governments to use as a scapegoat for climate change in order to enhance their green credentials.


User currently offlineSB From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 15 hours ago) and read 3987 times:



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 13):
Ive always said i cannot understand how shipping gets away so lightly. Massive polluter.

My thoughts exactly. Or does it have something to do with keeping the UK shipping industry (what's left of it anyway) alive? No, I'm fantasizing.

The crusade against aviation which the UK government (and environmentalists) seem to be on really is ridiculous, unfortunately it looks like a change in ruling party will only make things worse.

S.



"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 12 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

The Dutch tried this scheme. All they did was to make airport operators in the border regions of Germany and Belgium rich.

Jan


User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1784 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 9 hours ago) and read 2498 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
The Dutch tried this scheme. All they did was to make airport operators in the border regions of Germany and Belgium rich.

Whilst I don't necassarilly agree with what the UK Government are doing, the situation here is different. We're an Island nation that for short haul, more often than not, use charter and LCC on a point to point basis. Therefore the threat of simply going elsewhere isn't as great.



Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2089 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

Well never mind the air tax, You now need to find £77.50 (approx $145) just to renew your passport in order to get out of the country. Back in 1997 (when Labour were elected) it cost £18 (approx $35 at current conversion rates).

So if you're a young family, no passports, and wanting to travel abroad to start enjoying a holiday you have to find £310 ($580) just to get the documents you need - which could be more than the cost of your week on the Costa del Sol!



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3013 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 2366 times:



Quoting DogBreath (Reply 8):

Unfortunately we're seeing the death throes of a Government hell bent on taking this country and everyone in it so far into a deficit on failed policies and gutless management, that they can't see the woods for the trees.

I thought you were talking about the US until I saw the Union Jack by your name.

Thankfully Obama has not looked towards the airlines as a source of carbon reduction I don't think. We don't have a workable rail system in the US so cutting down on airline travel is not really an option.

I flew to LHR in 2005 and the taxes were horrible back then. I got a $330 ticket on BA BWI-LHR-BWI but after taxes it was around $480. On the same trip I also took several FR flights around Europe, I think it took 3 of them just to equal the taxes for flying into LHR.

Loved London, but it's too bloody expensive for me to consider going back anytime soon, both to fly there and to stay.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1784 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2285 times:



Quoting Brons2 (Reply 21):
Loved London, but it's too bloody expensive for me to consider going back anytime soon, both to fly there and to stay.

Agreed but there are other places in the UK just waiting to be explored.



Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

We always assume people in authority know what they are doing. Here is a case in point that they do not.

Putting up airport taxes while many people are so heavily affected by the recession and airlines are finding it hard to find punters is complete madness.

When they are relegated to the opposition benches they will look back objectively at this decision and cringe at their mistake.


User currently offlineEric From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2253 times:



Quoting Danfearn77 (Thread starter):
People will simply by-pass LHR and go to AMS/CDG/FRA et al.

This tax still applies if you are connecting in another country. I.e. the same ADP would be paid on a flight that goes LHR-FRA-CPT as one that goes LHR-CPT.

In order to by-pass the ADP, you'd have to book LHR-FRA//FRA-CPT on two separate tickets. As this tax is largely aimed at the business and first segment (as noted by the incredible premium they will charge over Y tickets ADP) I assume they hope people won't book a separate ticket to somewhere else. Very few companies (or the ones who buy C/F ticket out of own pocket) would really be too concerned about the increase. In the former, having an employee misconnect can quickly turn out to be more time-consuming and expensive and in the latter, well, if you can afford £2000 ticket, then you are not really going to worry about £80 extra in tax.


25 Rutankrd : Babybus Don't expect this tax to be abolished after next May. Its NOT the British way , once a tax and duty is imposed here they rarely go away! The T
26 Kaitak : I'd say even moreso; the Tories are - at present - committed to axing the third runway at LHR, although if a new Tory leader is appointed between now
27 Viscount724 : "Whingeing" is also an acceptable spelling. It's British English for what Americans (and Canadians) would call "whining".
28 Par13del : From a pax point of view, how is this any different from the EU push to place carbon charges etc. on airlines operating to and within the EU airspace?
29 Davehammer : I'm not sure it's going to make a massive difference to be honest. I have no particular basis for this but our Airport Taxes have always been high and
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