Well, Detroit itself hardly qualifies as a major city anymore. It's got tall buildings, many of which are empty. But the metro area is enormous in both size and population. Either way, they have NW/DL. It is the local airport for pretty much the entire southeastern corner of the state.
And what about San Antonio - it is the 8th largest city in the country??
KBMIFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11010 times:
I think you are putting New Orleans on a bit of a pedestal. It is really not that large of a city, even less so after Katrina.
There are many cities larger than New Orleans that do not have a hub. San Diego, Tampa, Baltimore (one could argue SWA), Portland, Sacremento, San Antonio, Kansas city, Las Vegas, Columbus, Indianapolis....
InnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11009 times:
I think he meant that Detroit was kind of a large city... which is equally wrong. It's far larger than New Orleans. Detroit is about 5 million, STL is 2.5 million, and New Orleans is only 1.3 million. In fact, I wouldn't have bothered to list NO as a "major city". It's only 33rd in terms of MSA population. Waaay above that are Philly and Pittsburgh (both kinda hubs for US), Phoenix is 15th on the list, Tampa is 20th (notably not a hub), Portland at 21st, and even Milwaukee at 25th.
To sum up, this list isn't even remotely complete.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
Due to poor design of terminals to facilitate a hub operation. Their circular terminals make it necessary to cover a lot of floor from one gate to others down the building. Ass that and security areas serving a few gates as opposed to a large sterile area housing all gates.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11837 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10986 times:
From the Census Department, the list of the nation's largest population centers and the airlines that hub, or have major focus city/market concentration operations* in those markets (not necessarily in order of size):
1. New York/Newark - AA, Continental, Delta, JetBlue
2. LA/Long Beach/Riverside - AA, Southwest, United
3. Chicagoland - AA, Southwest, United
4. Washington/Baltimore - Southwest, United, USAirways
5. Boston Metro - AA, Delta, JetBlue, USAirways
6. San Francisco Bay Area - Southwest, United
7. Dallas/Fort Worth - AA, Southwest
8. Philadelphia - Southwest, USAirways
9. Houston - Continental, Southwest
10. Atlanta - AirTran, Delta
11. Miami/Dade/South Florida - AA, JetBlue, Southwest
12. Detroit - Northwest
13. Phoenix - Southwest, USAirways
14. Seattle/Tacoma - Alaska
15. Minneapolis/St. Paul - Delta
16. Denver - Frontier, Southwest, United
17. San Diego - none*
18. Cleveland - Continental
19. St. Louis - AA
20. Tampa - none*
21. Orlando - AirTran, JetBlue, Southwest
22. Pittsburgh - none*
23. Sacramento - none*
24. Charlotte - USAirways
25. Cincinnati - Delta
*Some may argue with my appraisals of "none," or my other appraisals - I leave that for discussion!
CIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2351 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10943 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter): So why isn't there a hub at MCI? In the next expansionary phase, UA could really bolster its rather weak Southern network with an MCI hub.
Hubs have been attempted at MCI with little success. TWA, Braniff II, Eastern, Vanguard to name a few. Midwest could barely be called a hub there, its more like a focus city. The terminal set up is not condusive for hub operations, and the MCI area as a whole probably is not large enough to support a hub. Granted you can say MEM and CLT are just about as big population wise and have had hubs for years. They are farther south and geographically speaking have a better role for their respective airlines. History also plays a role in having hubs located there as well. MCI is too far north to be a southern hub, if you look on a map it is directly east of DEN on I-70. IAH will be their southern hub with the CO code share (and will be so also if they ever merger with CO).
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2897 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10913 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter): NYC
St. Louis (kinda)
Don't forget (in your East-West pattern):
Anchorage (not very big, but a major regional draw akin to a larger city)
Of my additions (and I may have missed some here or there, but figured a few major sports franchises, notable landmarks, major corporations, etc. made these cities quite important), Pittsburgh is not a hub, though it was until very recently; Raleigh and Nashville are not hubs but both did serve as hubs in the 1990s and see substantial WN and p2p service today; Tampa is not a hub but sees tons of service from many airlines; Columbus is not a hub, but that is likely due to the fact that it is sandwiched between CLE and CVG (and it was the home of Skybus); Indianapolis is not a hub but has substantial service from NW/DL and AirTran; San Antonio is not a hub, but does have a lot of WN service (and UAX did try to make it a hub recently).
There was a hub at MCI, operated by TWA - at that time one of the world's most prestigious airlines. The airport was designed with convenience in mind, pax could park or be dropped off near the terminal and at their gate in a matter of minutes owing to the airport's unique semi-circular terminal design. DFW and TXL were also designed this way. Unfortunately, modern security was not considered, and setting up checkpoints all over the terminal proved extremely costly. TWA announced that it would abandon the airport due to these high costs, and state officials were able to convince them to move to STL, so as to keep their business in the state. Hence the major STL hub (now a shell of its former self, operated by AA) was born. Nobody ever filled the void at MCI, and the airport remains highly underutilized today. A more modern terminal (a la DEN) may be able to change that.
UA already has 5 major hubs and 2 alliance partners that are very strong in the South. No offense, but there really isn't too much money in the South (relative to the Coasts and Midwest). Plus, MCI is far too distant from the South to serve it effectively. MCI could be a nice gateway to UA's vast Great Plains/Rocky Mountain/Midwest network, and even the coasts, but UA already has DEN for that very purpose. UA would probably have better luck serving the South from LAX than from MCI, given the extremely low O&D from Kansas City to places like Jackson, MS and Charleston, SC. If anyone comes to MCI, it will likely be a new airline or an LCC. The legacy carriers seem far more interested in building up traditional focus cities into hubs (UA at LAX, DL at JFK, etc.) than starting from scratch at a mere spoke.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5553 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10885 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter): So in the U.S. my list of major cities from approximate East to West is (and correct me because I will miss a few):
St. Louis (kinda)
Now, of these, only one does not have a major airline hub and that is New Orleans. STL sort of has AA.
So why isn't there a hub at MCI? In the next expansionary phase, UA could really bolster its rather weak Southern network with an MCI hub.
Huh? I'm a bit confused. You skipped San Diego as one of your list's cities without a hub, and then you start talking about KC which is not on your list in the first place. (I also believe PHL might belong on your list...) Maybe I've missed your meaning here...
UA at IAD also US has about 200 daily flights at DCA, they call it a focus city but other stations with that many flights by one airline are considered hubs. You can make alot of connections there on US.
Travelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10703 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18): Now now, LAX got its TUL service back, and PIT begins in August. The only thing that is getting cut is St. George, Utah. Now that isn't much of a loss at all.
I guess I was referring more to the long term decline of LAX as a UA "hub". International destinations lost including CDG, HKG, FRA, AKL, GUA, SAL, etc. And domestic destinations lost (or downgraded) from the "UA Shuttle" days.
With the announcement of the downgrade of NRT to 777 (from 744), it just seems UA gets smaller and smaller at LAX. Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see UA "dehub" LAX and call it a "focus city", similar to AA at LAX.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2897 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10560 times:
Quoting Travelin man (Reply 19): I guess I was referring more to the long term decline of LAX as a UA "hub"
Unfortunately, LAX has never played a prominent role in the UA network. It has always been the airline's newest and smallest hub, overshadowed by nearby SFO. The West Coast was booming in the late 90's during the tech bubble, and that would be when LAX was at its peak. I'm afraid the economy just hasn't been the same since
Quoting Travelin man (Reply 19): International destinations lost including CDG, AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG, FRA, AKL, GUA, AND San Salvador - El Salvador International (Comalapa / Cuscatlan) (SAL / MSLP), El Salvador">SAL, etc.
Well, LHR, NRT, and SYD are the key long-haul routes from LAX and they aren't going anywhere. International travel has dropped sharply, especially from Japan with this swine flu outbreak, hence the downgauge on NRT, but I imagine the 747 will come back in due time. In the meantime, the 777 will be an upgrade in terms of onboard amenities with the PTVs in Y...
Now, given UA's strength at AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG, I'm a bit surprised LAX-AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG hasn't worked for them (they have discontinued that route twice now), but I guess they restarted it at the wrong time. Hopefully they will give it another go when things improve. Third time should be the charm
As for GUA and AND San Salvador - El Salvador International (Comalapa / Cuscatlan) (SAL / MSLP), El Salvador">SAL getting cut, those really aren't prestigious stations at all. CDG and AKL were long, thin routes, and FRA on UA metal was just unnecessary with LH already covering that route.
Quoting Travelin man (Reply 19): domestic destinations lost (or downgraded) from the "UA Shuttle" days.
UA's strengths from LAX have always been the transcons and Hawaii routes. UA remains incredibly strong to Hawaii and has held its own to the likes of BOS and JFK in spite of intense competition on those routes. Again, the UA Shuttle was a result of the tech bubble, and was a very flawed concept at that - diluting from the UA brand. UA can't make any money flying its big planes to TUS and RNO when WN flies those routes all day long, so I completely understand why those cities are all UAX nowadays. As for the loss of EWR, ATL, MIA, IAH, etc. UA simply couldn't compete with one or two daily flights when DL, AA, CO, etc. had multiple daily frequencies and strong hubs so as to appeal to both the O&D biz pax and connecting pax. The downgrades of DFW, SEA, and PDX again reflect UA's natural disadvantage against the carriers with a LAX focus city AND strong hub on the other end. At least UA didn't leave those markets altogether!
That may be, but UA still remains the largest operation at LAX, that's pretty good, right?
Quoting Travelin man (Reply 19): Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see UA "dehub" LAX and call it a "focus city", similar to AA at LAX.
I'm not so sure. While UA and AA are quite similar out of LAX in terms of mainline ops, UA doesn't embrace the concept of a "focus city" like AA does. Their last focus city would have been MIA, and we all know what happened to that. LAX is far bigger and stronger than MIA ever was. UA flies many niche routes through UAX, and the mainline op provides competitive service to key Northeastern markets, other major UA hubs, and Hawaii, as well as the key international leisure and business markets.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
BOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10469 times:
Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 8): all of which have hubs except for BOS and SAN due to their poor geography.
In the case of BOS, I disagree that it's due to geography. BOS would make a perfect TATL hub the way JFK, PHL, and IAD are. The location and O&D (#4 US market for European travellers, and #11 market for domestic travellers) are good. BOS was once a hub for a few airlines, including Braniff, and Eastern had a good-size presence here as well. Unfortunatley, those airlines no longer exist anymore and the airport's size makes it near impossible to hub there.
With SAN I agree, due to its proximity to LAX and the lack of anything southwest aside from Western Mexico and Australia, but they also have to deal with being a one-runway airport and a smaller market.
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10410 times:
There's no need for another hub in the U.S. the domestic market is saturated in most areas...but the largest city without a hub in the US would be San Antonio but no offense establishing a hub at SAT is suicide it can't compete with IAH or DFW or even DAL......IMHO
Briguy1974 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10383 times:
No one in the above post mentioned the 10th largest city in the US. SJC again is overshadowed by the city to the north that is far smaller in population but continues to attract all the big time international traffic.
Of course the UA hub and huge international facility make SFO the spot for now in the bay area. It will be sad to see SJC new terminal sit underutilized like ONT, and STL.
: A number of people mentioned the "Bay Area" which is the CMSA or Combined Metropoliton Statistical Area of SF, OAK, SJC and surrounding areas. Just li
: For everyone who thinks that a metro area supporting multiple hubs is "suicide" or a "bloodbath", it's interesting to note that two-thirds, 14 of the
: Nobody mentioned it because city proper is absolutely irrelevant. The largest cities in the U.S. based on census definitions: 1) NYC 2) LA 3) Chicago
: Berlin, Germany. 5 million people 2 airport (a third one recently closed) 1 mega airport under construction, which will replace the current two from 2
: DAL or DFW? Correct, DFW has AA and DAL has WN For todays airports, I don't see much difference between a "hub" and a "focus city". To me, either des
: Everyone keeps forgetting Houston! It's the fourth largest city in the US. While Dallas will always be home and where my heart lies, Houston is where
: CO has it's largest hub at IAH which one of Houston's airports.... Houston is easily on the list above....
: The size is a big issue in terms of having a hub at boston, especially considering the way the terminals are laid out. I dont see there every being a
: What would differentiate a hub from a focus city? For example, is NYC a hub for 5 airlines or 3? You have DL and B6 at JFK, plus AA's "focus city/int'
: Doc, your reasoning isn't very consistent. The "city" of Detroit is still far larger than the "city" of Atlanta, though both have huge metro areas. C
: HELLO!!! Were missing a HUGE one! LAS- has over 1/4 of WNs traffic and G4s Major west coast hub type thing. LAS has 2.3 million and the 13 largest air
: No, we are not missing it. Las Vegas is not a major city.
: A very good point, Berlin could just be the largest metropolitan area I can think of off the top of my head that isn't a hub, at least in the West. I
: I believe that the term 'Hub' to describe Boston is a misnomer. To me, a Hub implies a place where people come in on Flight 123 and leave on Flight 45
: The Dusseldorf/Cologne/Essen region is far more populous and also lacks a hub airline. It has lots of flights though, you just can't connect anywhere
: While not a hub for any single carrier, people would be surprised how much transit traffic Boston sees, especially to Europe. Iberia carriers more tr
: LAX is a focus city for many airlines, Alaska, American, Delta, Southwest, United but not really a hub for any airline.
: I know all of that... I live here, but thanks. The reason I said what I said was because no one else was mentioning it.
: If memory correct, LH also opened their 2nd major hub at MUC a couple of years after German reunification. MUC happens to be only Germany's 3rd large
: LAX is technically a hub city for us. I would argue that PDX is more of a focus city than LAX, since much of the AS flying has been taken over by QX.
: PHL and PIT are "kinda hubs" for US? How about: US ops at both: PHL: ~400 daily flights, and with a large chunk of those going across the Pond and do
: Haha I was about to say. PHL is one of US' major hub, alongside CLT which has more flights, less transatlantic and PHX which almost all domestic/Mexi
: New Orleans fits no deffinition of a major city or MSA. Even Nashville is larger.
: Really? The auto motive industry is not what it once was but Detroit is still the 12th largest CMA in the U.S. DTW is the 22nd busiest airport in the
: And it will stay that way...the transatlantic market is saturated right now and it will be for the time to come.....if that's the case then why does
: When considering the size a city's population size, you really can't look at the population of the city itself, rather the population of its Metro are
: and like PIT it, too, was a former hub -- for AA. I think BNA is no more than a spoke in AA's system now. I remember when they used to have a PIT-BNA
: Was it not US or are we going back a few more years that my mind cannot remember?
: I'd put New Orleans on the high end of the "mid size" metropolitan area list, but its lack of being a hub has more to do with the lack of a hub-condus
: Because it is. Just because it receives a lot of its connections to Europe does not change it. Every major U.S.-Europe O&D market has far more capaci
: SAN is WN, and has multiple destinations served, including internationa Yes, but in cultural and economic influence, Atlanta and Detroit aren't even
: Not enough open free gates for anyone to create a "hub" at MSY. "Focus city" would be doable...hub, no. UA could have a few extra gates if they wante
: I guarantee you that if UA walked in to MSY and said "We'd like you to build us a terminal with 50 gates and we'll establish our new Southeast hub he
: The problem is MSY is hemmed in as far as land goes: Mississippi River just a few blocks South, suburbia directly to the East and North, and the vast
: There is plenty of land; just people living on it. For enough money, you can exercise eminent domain and get the land. It's not easy to do, but it ca
: Actually, since 11 new gates will be up and running by 2013, those could handle the needs of AA, WN, FL, B6, and AM...so UA could have B and C for a
: Well, when compared to other cities the same size as BNA, AA has a pretty large presence here for just a "spoke". They still maintain a number of fli
62 USFlyer MSP
: Huh? The San Francisco area is 2.5 times larger than Las Vegas metro and is MUCH more important economically and culturally. You cannot compare the t
: The SF/Oakland metro area has about twice the employment of Las Vegas; SFO is obviously a top economic center for the nation, not to mention the Paci
: But tell us how you REALLY feel about Las Vegas. Don't hold back, now! Vegas is very important. It has a rather diversified economy and plays a major
: Population size is not conducive to productivity or financial success in cities. San Jose has a big population because it is basically a huge sprawli
: I don't mean to burst your bubble but NO hasn't come even close to becoming the "major tourist destination" that it once was. They're slowly eeking t
: That would be true of almost any other city in America. Unfortunately, this is New Orleans we're talking about. I would go a step further and say tha
: I'm not sure who wouldn't consider N.O a major tourist destination...it's one of the premier tourist destinations in the U.S. Sure, it's not back to
69 USFlyer MSP
: It beg to differ, the lack of economic diversity is why Las Vegas and Detroit have the worst economies in the nation right now. I highly doubt that L
: I've read all the posts, and I think that we need to define what is a major city. All cities develop and grow differently, politics and the economy us
: I agree with you here for the most part, though I don't believe Chicago or Washington are stretching it in the least. According to the journal Foreig
: You forgot perhaps the most landlocked and concentrated U.S. city of all...Boston! Interestingly enough, Chicago has a very vibrant and strong downto
: Sure they do. All industries support each-other in some way. Without construction and real estate, there is no development. There is also no developm
: I tend to agree. Paris is home to fashion and the many finer things in life, while Tokyo is where virtually all of our electronics come from. Togethe
: Interesting Wikipedia Article. Funny thing though, I hadn't read it before I made the post, but my opinions are aligned with their study. However, the
: Once had BA ops but only really for european and domestic. Did see some BE connections at MAN for the BA JFK flight. Not sure how often people connec
: LV is hurting, but I wouldn't call it the worst economy in the nation. Lots of foreclosure based on lots of new homeowners... and all that population
: If only our politicians in MSY had never squandered the airport's potential in the past 3 decades and let cities such as ATL, DAL and HOU eclipse us.
: Easy. BNA. But, we do have the WN Focus City "thingy" and you can take from that what you will.
: I certainly dont think so. Urban area measurements show bias toward cities that are more centralized and dont show a true measurement of the people l