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Qatar And Their 787  
User currently offlineOlympic472 From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 476 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 12343 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oeing-tomorrow-to-discuss-787.html

Quite insightful article as to Al Baker's thinking regarding the whole 787 mess. This does not sound like posturing because they truly have options.

I doubt we'll hear the outcome of the meeting, unless it is a cancellation.


Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 12287 times:



Quote:
"They knew that when Qatar Airways says something it's not just talk but we will follow it up with our decision," he says.

What an ego...too bad Boeing needs the business and can't tell him to stuff it.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 12277 times:

Quote from the article:
"The Qatar Airways chief believes Boeing knew about the delays at Paris although it did not announce them until the following week. Al Baker also criticises Boeing for not taking steps earlier to mitigate the delays.

"Boeing has lost leadership. The mess of this programme should have been corrected a long time ago," he claims, adding Qatar had a better relationship with Boeing when Alan Mulally was still CEO.

"I'm having a meeting with Boeing here [Washington, DC] tomorrow. They will have to brief me exactly where this programme is," Al Baker adds."


Sounds like Akbar al-Baker means business. And he has the best wikipedia picture evvvvvver.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 12234 times:



Quoting Brons2 (Reply 1):
What an ego...too bad Boeing needs the business and can't tell him to stuff it.

Just being a customer means the latter part of that applies. He does not need an ego. You make it sound as if B were doing him a favour by taking the Qatar money.

There used to be a saying about customers and their opinions, but it appears it must have been declared inoperative??????  sarcastic 


User currently offlineFlood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1383 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 12237 times:

Now that would make an interesting webcast  biggrin 

How realistic is obtaining 2011 delivery slots??

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 2):
And he has the best wikipedia picture evvvvvver.

 Confused


User currently offlineOlympic472 From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 12195 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 2):
Sounds like Akbar al-Baker means business.

Yes, and I do not blame him for doing so if he is not getting the answers from Boeing. It is better to be direct in a business relationship than to beat around the bush.

I think he definitely misses Alan Mulally.



Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 12133 times:
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Quoting Brons2 (Reply 1):
What an ego...too bad Boeing needs the business and can't tell him to stuff it.

so I guess that if you were a customer and somebody kept slipping your delivery dates further and further out that you would just shrug your shoulders , accept it as 'just one of those things' and thank them for still being prepared to accept your business and your money .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 11902 times:

He was annoyed at the delays before - God knows how they feel about the latest delays. People are talking on the other thread about another 8 months before she takes to the skies, so at least another year and a half before NH get theirs. Thats 2011! That means QR's deliveries probably slip to 2012 or even 2013. Messy!

Boeing really screwed the pooch on this one. Fingers crossed they can get it sorted out asap.

COME ON BOEING!!!



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8589 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 11741 times:
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Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):
Boeing really screwed the pooch on this one

- I love that!

Let's face it, QR have every reason to be upset with Boeing with the way the whole program is going.

I imagine Boeing are kind of relieved we have a global recession on at the moment, had we not, I can imagine they would be under far greater pressure from the airlines over the 787 farce.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1715 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11553 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 2):
"I'm having a meeting with Boeing here [Washington, DC] tomorrow. They will have to brief me exactly where this programme is," Al Baker adds."

I hope Boeing has also been briefed where mr. Al Baker is. If they believe that he is in the state of Washington, a cancellation is in the bag. But nothing would surprise me anymore from B's managers  Yeah sure

Quoting Olympic472 (Reply 5):
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 2):
Sounds like Akbar al-Baker means business.

Yes, and I do not blame him for doing so if he is not getting the answers from Boeing. It is better to be direct in a business relationship than to beat around the bush.

I think he definitely misses Alan Mulally.

I believe many do. Although I have the impression QR's relationship with Boeing has been a bit of a struggle for a longer time - remember the farce with the announcement of the 777 order at the Paris airshow a couple of years ago?

Quoting Flood (Reply 4):
How realistic is obtaining 2011 delivery slots??

Depends on how fast they can get the first 19 production frames out of the factory. He doesn't want any of those (and I wonder who does  Confused ), but if ZA120 is ready around mid 2011 or so, QR will probably retain its order for the 787's.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):
He was annoyed at the delays before - God knows how they feel about the latest delays. People are talking on the other thread about another 8 months before she takes to the skies, so at least another year and a half before NH get theirs. Thats 2011! That means QR's deliveries probably slip to 2012 or even 2013. Messy!

Well, in that case Boeing must take a gamble and start producing customer 787's already while the flight test program is still in progress - and  crossfingers  no major snag will come up that requires redesigning/rebuilding the already produced frames. And I'm not at all confident such a thing won't happen.  Sad



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11532 times:
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I loved this quote from another article

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...em.aspx?type=blog&ak=68495246.blog

...When asked if he'd take the job as CEO at Boeing if it were offered to him, Al Baker said: "I would take it and a lot of heads would roll. Just like it my airline. ... People must deliver."...

On FT I read that apparently QR staff refer to him as "Mr Burns" when he is is out of earshot , obviously .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4944 posts, RR: 40
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11510 times:
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Interesting. QR was already clearly disappointed and communicated this clearly. A very interesting quote from this interview:

"We'll start getting the A350 during the last quarter of 2013 if they are on time," he says. "I think there could be a six month slippage maximum, but at the same time I feel more confident Airbus will deliver on time due to the fact they're learning huge lessons from the mistake Boeing has made."

Also not important imho is this quote:

"They knew that when Qatar Airways says something it's not just talk but we will follow it up with our decision," he says.

Boeing must really come clean with this customer regarding the status of the B787 program. Maybe then the rest of the world will get (for the very first time) an honest and informative answer from Boeing on this topic.

So far they have done a lousy job in that department, contrary to their performance in market hyping and sales. That is what they have done very, very well.


User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1715 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11482 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
I loved this quote from another article

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...em.aspx?type=blog&ak=68495246.blog

...When asked if he'd take the job as CEO at Boeing if it were offered to him, Al Baker said: "I would take it and a lot of heads would roll.

Well, where he's coming from, I would take that threat VERY literally  duck 
Just kidding folks... I've been in Qatar and I know it's a modern state.



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11391 times:

Boeing need to keep QR happy as they need to keep a finger in the growing Middle East aviation scene.

Boeing needs QR more than QR needs Boeing and I think they both know it.


User currently offlineFlood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1383 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11283 times:



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
Boeing must really come clean with this customer regarding the status of the B787 program

Agreed, but how do they come clean when, as of just two days ago, their own public assessment of the length of delays was "we don't know"? Not to mention they'll already be walking into the meeting under a cloud of mistrust. In the article, Al Baker essentially claimed Boeing lied in Le Bourget as he believed they knew about the forthcoming delays. If he gets the impression he's being cooked up another fairytale, he could just as easily walk.

Losing QR from the books would be a far greater disaster from a PR standpoint than financially IMO. Love him or hate him, I imagine they'll be going to great lengths to appease Al Baker through any means possible.


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11283 times:

I'm sure that whenever the name Al Baker appears in the news there is suddenly a very cold breeze in the Airbus and Boeing sales offices..."please, god, let it be about the other guys".

Boeing faces the dilemma that when they give in too much to him they can rest assured that tomorrow there are 10 other airlines on their doorstep.

[Edited 2009-07-24 05:24:07]

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4944 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11202 times:
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Quoting Flood (Reply 14):
Losing QR from the books would be a far greater disaster from a PR standpoint than financially IMO. Love him or hate him, I imagine they'll be going to great lengths to appease Al Baker through any means possible.

I agree with this. It is also important to note that the meeting will be held in Washington DC, the political center of the country. And not in Chicago at Boeing headquarters. They meet on equal turf instead of on Boeing's home soil.

I know it is a minor detail, but when it comes to such meetings the place where to meet becomes suddenly very important.


User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11143 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
I loved this quote from another article

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...em.aspx?type=blog&ak=68495246.blog

...When asked if he'd take the job as CEO at Boeing if it were offered to him, Al Baker said: "I would take it and a lot of heads would roll. Just like it my airline. ... People must deliver."...

On FT I read that apparently QR staff refer to him as "Mr Burns" when he is is out of earshot , obviously .

The proof is actually in the pudding for Al Baker. When his airline has yet to turn a profit in nearly 10 years of his stewardship, and no prospect of turing one in the near future, how can he possibly justify his public criticism when he himself isn't responsible to shareholders or his own employees or required to deal with other "silly" issues like regulatory requirements, financial transparency, and/or labor standards.

He may perfectly justified in his criticism of Boeing's performance, but until he's proven that he's capable of turning a profit, he needs to learn some professional behaviour and keep his childish antics out of the public media. It only serves to make his look like an insolent child.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11130 times:

I think you should always respect an important supplier / business partner. Obviously not a skill mastered by mr Baker. Many of his fellow princes have an issue with that. However they didnt have work their way up and cant be fired.

User currently offlineA333TS From Canada, joined May 2008, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10526 times:

Quick question:

Were airlines that angry when Airbus had delays on their A380 project or did Airbus handle customer concerns in different manner? For some reason I don’t remember it being that bad with Airbus, but I’m probably wrong.


A333TS


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31412 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10527 times:
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Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 9):
Well, in that case Boeing must take a gamble and start producing customer 787's already while the flight test program...

They've been producing customer 787s for some time now. That was always the plan, even as the plan slipped farther and farther to the right as the delays multiplied.

If QR is ready to cancel, Boeing might float 77Ls and 77Ws at them as an alternative, since QR could use them and Boeing can get them earlier delivery slots thanks to customer deferrals (and possibly delaying the production down-ramp).


User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10486 times:



Quoting A333TS (Reply 19):
Were airlines that angry when Airbus had delays on their A380 project or did Airbus handle customer concerns in different manner? For some reason I don’t remember it being that bad with Airbus, but I’m probably wrong.

IIRC the A380 delay was 18 months? April 2006 pushed to October 2007.

And B787 has been delayed for more than 2 years already and still the picture is not clear.

QRs expansion are held hostage by the B787 delays. And be it Airbus or Boeing, a delay of this order will piss off many people.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31412 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10399 times:
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Quoting A333TS (Reply 19):
Were airlines that angry when Airbus had delays on their A380 project or did Airbus handle customer concerns in different manner?

Yes they were upset, as well.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10234 posts, RR: 97
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10399 times:
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Quoting A333TS (Reply 19):
Were airlines that angry when Airbus had delays on their A380 project or did Airbus handle customer concerns in different manner? For some reason I don’t remember it being that bad with Airbus, but I’m probably wrong.

There were a number of voices raised, from memory.

But if you want a more pertinent reference, the very same Mr. Al Baker was EXTREMELY annoyed, and vociferous, when Airbus cancelled the original A350, of which QR had 60 on order, for delivery from 2010.

Rgds


User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9703 times:

Simply put, Boeing lied at Paris. In doing so they took the 787 programme to a new low (and it was pretty low anyway)

Quoting Babybus (Reply 13):
Boeing needs QR more than QR needs Boeing and I think they both know it

Pretty much sums it up nicely. QR seems to be unique at the moment at weathering the current storms. They gonna' be big and strong when all this is over, so Boeing need to swallow some pride and be honest.

The A350 might just turn out to be the most important civil aircraft programme since the Comet. If they crack it and deliver within say 6-9 months of schedule, thats gonna make a huge difference to the balance of power, particularly when it comes to the next generation narrowbodies. Airbus will be able to say "who delivered last time?"

Of course, they might also cock it up, but one hopes at least they won't lie.



L1011 - P F M
25 Sancho99504 : IIRC didn't A380 take flight before the delays were announced?
26 Slz396 : Didn't he order the 30 787s as a consequence? QR originally had 60 A350s on order with first delivery in 2010 if I recall correctly, but those got pu
27 Post contains links PlaneInsomniac : A380 maiden flight April 27, 2005 First delay announcement June 2005 Mid-2006 (?): planned first deliveries September/November 2006: full passenger f
28 Post contains links MSNDC9 : You got that right: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...em.aspx?type=blog&ak=68495247.blog We would like to be part of an alliance, but at the sam
29 BrouAviation : Which airline hasn't? Still, QR and Al Baker are one of the very few talking this way. Airlines are looking everywhere to cut costs as much as possib
30 EcuadorianMD11 : Different strokes for different folks I suppose............ Not sure if this is thread related, but thanks for sharing your preference with us! Qatar
31 Directorguy : Looks like Dr. Evil in a dishdasha : Seriously. What is it with al Baker? It's like he's trying to be the MoL of the Middle East. He complained about
32 Pellegrine : :D
33 Asiaflyer : Boeing probably will, but thats not really what QR needs, replace A332 with 77L or 77W. QR more likely will go for cash compensation from Boeing, may
34 Brons2 : Sure, the customer is #1, and you have to take their crap. It doesn't mean you have to like it when they act like an all-powerful buffoon and speak a
35 EcuadorianMD11 : Okay, I missed that thread I think.......... What´s the exact number please? Whatever it is, it may get a little bigger yet after seeing this Qatar
36 Baroque : By being a provided, you automatically declare yourself a "crap receptacle facility". Al B may be (and may not be) acting like an all-powerful buffoo
37 Astuteman : Exactly 80 A350XWB Rgds
38 EC777 : To Brons2: Without knowing the details of the two contracts, yours and Qatars, (which I suspect are quite different) it is very difficult to judge who
39 Par13del : Everyone in this whole fiasco needs some recovery, customers and Boeing. So far all cancellations have been on the customer side, I think Boeing needs
40 Stitch : They wouldn't use them to replace their A330-200s, but to expand now instead of having to wait years for their first tranche of A350XWBs to come in o
41 Babybus : If someone can't deliver a product I think you're able to cancel the deal and get your money back. That applies to supermarkets, DIY shops and intern
42 Stitch : Until such a time as Boeing formally withdraws the 787 from production, they're in a position to deliver the product eventually. It's the same reason
43 Thorben : Right. The article claims it was 100, but 80 is the exact number.
44 Pellegrine : A few things: We're not privy to the actual contract which is different for each order as I'm sure you know (there probably is a walk away clause as
45 Asiaflyer : These two cases can not be compared, as TG and Airbus agreed about a new schedule and Airbus compensated TG with discounted A330s. QR and Boeing are
46 Stitch : Folks should not assume that just because QF has a clause that allowed them to "walk away" from the 787 after a certain date that every 787 customer h
47 Thorben : I don't think Al-Baker is behaving very professional in this matter. He can say these things inside his company or to Boeing officials, but he shouldn
48 Stitch : QR did buy the 787-8, which is smaller than the A350-800XWB and equivalent to the A330-200. So his plans might have been to use the 787-8 as an A330-2
49 Revelation : And all his complaints were justified.
50 AirNZ : To be perfectly honest though, the reality is that it really doesn't matter a fiddlers damn what you either like, or don't like, about the matter. Yo
51 DocLightning : I cannot imagine that they would forfeit their deposit on a delay of 3 years. The contract simply cannot be that unilateral.
52 Thorben : 30 x 788 20 x A358 40 x A359 20 x A3510 would make a decent wide-body fleet, supported by A32X narrowbodies and some A388 for the real important dest
53 B777LRF : "Therefore I agree that they could live without the 788. But betting everything on the A350 isn't too wise either. Imagine they canceled the 787 and a
54 FlyingAY : And on the other hand, it's not in any airline's interest to sign a contract where you pay your deposit and just have to patiently wait for a plane i
55 Directorguy : That may be so, but it is the manner in which those complains were made that has irked so many.
56 Post contains links Olympic472 : http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1248905225.html The latest from Qatar is that they will receive 4 of their 787 by 2011 and the remaining 26 by 2015
57 Pellegrine : I love every minute of it. Thx for the link.
58 BrouAviation : Wasn't it Al Baker too, bashing on QR's A345's?
59 WINGS : That would be the A346's. Regards, Wings
60 Post contains links OP3000 : Another media source confirming that Boeing has worked things out for now with Al Baker: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...escues-qatar-airways-7
61 Post contains links EPA001 : And if you read the latest unfortunate developments in the B787 wing joint problem (see: 787 First Flight Delayed At Least One Year? Part 2 (by Scbri
62 OP3000 : Yes that's going to make the calls for cancellations much more widespread. Boeing may have to get into the business of giving out A330s or 777s loane
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