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OpenSkies Temporarily Suspends AMS-JFK  
User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1309 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

OpenSkies has just announced that it will suspend all flights from AMS to JFK effective the 16th of August.

(Only in Dutch)
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=31487

The article says that due to the economic climate the demand for business class flights has dropped and that the route is not profitable. Passengers can choose for a refund or travel via London on BA mainline.


'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeaMeFly From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9007 times:

Oh, I just saw their plane @ JFK yesterday !!! Was thinking how were they doing on this route !

User currently offline1peter From Netherlands, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8967 times:

A real shame, but then like most at the moment they're fighting for survival.


Airlines flown; AA, AC, AY, BA, BD, BY, CX, DA, DP, IB, KL, LH, LA, LP, MA & MH
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2950 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8934 times:
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Doubt it will be back.

This is more surely to release the JFK slot for the LCY Elite service.

Two are needed one coming from the terminated Gatwick service plus this one me thinks.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32567 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8639 times:

OpenSkies is an excellent product.

I really think if they went for more integration with oneWorld, and especially American Airlines, the airline could be far more successful.

Whats killing OpenSkies, in my opinion, and what killed everything, is its independence. Even though its owned by BA, I don't think BA does enough to integrate OpenSkies into BA's network.



a.
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8514 times:

It's on flightglobal now too...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...pend-amsterdam-new-york-route.html

I've heard this before... a temporary suspention becomes permanent more often than not unfortunately. Too bad to see this airline go away. I thought they had a chance with BA behind them, but I suppose they started at the wrong time.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24629 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8389 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
I've heard this before... a temporary suspention becomes permanent more often than not unfortunately.

And there's no reference to "temporary" in the OpenSkies press release.
http://www.flyopenskies.com/docs/press/PR_072409.pdf


User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8161 times:

I've always been so suprised as to why they choose AMS-JFK as their route, personally I would have guessed maybe ZRH/GVA/MXP or FRA for this route.
Don't know if the plane could de MXP-JFK but these cities have a bigger business enviroment then AMS does.



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight: AMS-FRA-AMS
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2832 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8154 times:

So when it is all said and done, the U.S.-E.U. open skies agreement will have had little effect on the status quo. Air France's LAX-LHR flight didn't last long, and its purported replacement JFK-LHR never even began. NW's new SEA-LHR flight didn't take long to get cut either. Every other new LHR flight came at LGW's expense. So all in all, we have a few more ops at LHR, and even fewer at LGW. Open Skies JFK-ORY route will be the only all-new route, if it even survives..


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32567 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8141 times:



Quoting DALCA (Reply 7):
I've always been so suprised as to why they choose AMS-JFK as their route, personally I would have guessed maybe ZRH/GVA/MXP or FRA for this route.
Don't know if the plane could de MXP-JFK but these cities have a bigger business enviroment then AMS does.

Indeed. It always surprised me considering its hot as high-yielding a market as others with not as much premium demand. I was expecting JFK-MXP or JFK-ZRH. My only guess was that it was a large local market without oneWorld presence, and while OpenSkies remains pretty independent of OW, I'm sure integration is/was in the card for the long-term.



a.
User currently offlineThirteenRight From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7962 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Whats killing OpenSkies, in my opinion, and what killed everything, is its independence. Even though its owned by BA, I don't think BA does enough to integrate OpenSkies into BA's network.

You're 100% right. I wish they would have just called themselves "British Airways" or something much more creative than OpenSkies.


User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6794 times:

Openskies should never have been opened by BA. It was simply an ego boost for WW and his merry men which has been proven an ultimate failure!
I fear the LCY Elite route could go the same way. Apparently there is already a "Plan B" within BA if the routes does not prove profitable which will allow BA save face and move the aircraft to more profitable biz only routes ex LHR such as LOS and IAH!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

I suppose they can release the staff to the new LCY service. They've already been trained in J class service and operating to JFK and they'll be grateful to hold on to a job.

The 757's can go off the DHL or someone.


User currently offlineTravelExec From Spain, joined Dec 2007, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6174 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 8):
the U.S.-E.U. open skies agreement will have had little effect on the status quo.

There is still EI's MAD-IAD to come next year...


User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6113 times:



Quoting TravelExec (Reply 13):
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 8):
the U.S.-E.U. open skies agreement will have had little effect on the status quo.

There is still EI's MAD-IAD to come next year...

I'll bet that this one gets cancelled as well soon, certainly with the state EI is in right now.



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight: AMS-FRA-AMS
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6110 times:

Well the Point to Point theory, lauded by Boeing, to be exploited by the 7evenL8r7 is proved dead in the water, certainly on the transatlantic route.

I don't want to say I told you so...


User currently offlineBartBus From Netherlands, joined Jul 2009, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6061 times:



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 15):



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 15):
Well the Point to Point theory, lauded by Boeing, to be exploited by the 7evenL8r7 is proved dead in the water, certainly on the transatlantic route.

I don't want to say I told you so...

Well that's a bit easy after all this was an all business class fligt, perhaps it would have worked when they offered economy class. I don't think the 787 concept is dead, look at the recent A330 orders and the 787 orderbook, there is definitely demand.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5887 times:



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 15):
Well the Point to Point theory, lauded by Boeing, to be exploited by the 7evenL8r7 is proved dead in the water, certainly on the transatlantic route.

To the contrary, Boeing's theory -- which envisioned increased longahul from an ever-increasing number of gateways -- has proven largely correct. Airbus' hub-to-hub theory has been largely undermined by the fact that airlines are not falling over themselves to deploy VLA on hub-to-hub routes -- there's STILL a preference to use non-VLAs to maintain higher frequencies.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineOffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 869 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5555 times:



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 11):
I fear the LCY Elite route could go the same way.

Except that for the inconvenience of a 45 pitstop in SNN you get US pre clearance which isn't a bad trade off. Also didn't HSBC promise they'd take x amount of seats per month or something like that? I thought I read that somewhere.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineHenkybaby From Netherlands, joined May 2008, 593 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5543 times:

The main reason for the cancellation is not just loads (they weren't even that bad) but also the difficulty with crew assignments. Something about the US crews leaving due to union or labour restrictions. That is also why OpenSkies is not callled BA since BA is short for 'pension fund with wings'.

As always it is much more complicated than it seems. That being said: I will miss them. I love their product.



Wherever you go, there you are!
User currently offlineMysterzip From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5543 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 3):
This is more surely to release the JFK slot for the LCY Elite service.

BA will have two LCY flights, so they will need two pairs of slots. One they already have from their BA 172, the former 777 morning service to LHR and the LGW service is going to go away September 30, while the LCY service starts 4 days earlier. Additionally, one of the evening slots is currently not used (the 174/114/116/182 get rotated in and out of service).


User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5267 times:



Quoting BartBus (Reply 16):
Well that's a bit easy after all this was an all business class fligt, perhaps it would have worked when they offered economy class. I don't think the 787 concept is dead, look at the recent A330 orders and the 787 orderbook, there is definitely demand.

No indeed not. But these orders are to replace aging planes. None to open new gateways a la point to point. The likely scenario is 7evenL8r7's will be abused rather than used to their capability (an ever shifting paradigm at this time)



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 17):
To the contrary, Boeing's theory -- which envisioned increased longahul from an ever-increasing number of gateways -- has proven largely correct. Airbus' hub-to-hub theory has been largely undermined by the fact that airlines are not falling over themselves to deploy VLA on hub-to-hub routes -- there's STILL a preference to use non-VLAs to maintain higher frequencies.

Please name me the new gateways that have opened up on the transatlantic routes, I must have missed something.

The hub to hub is not changing, never will and there is very little more frequency to be rung out of the current infrastructure.
The VLA market was never one that was going to be one that airlines were "falling over themselves" to get into. Only highly efficient, forward thinking and well managed airlines are able to play in the VLA market and long with that continue.
The preference for non-VLA you speak off may well be scuppered as the A380s numbers are better known. Certainly SQ is stripping out its non-VLA to CDG because of poor economics compared to the VLA.
source: A380 21% More Economical P.seat Than 77W (by NA Jun 27 2009 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4464602&searchid=4471510&s=singapore+cdg+#ID4471510
Any airline without VLA in the hub-to-hub will find it impossible to compete with that level of efficiency.

But I see no new gateways of the type you describe. Certainly not on this isle.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24629 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4913 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 21):
Please name me the new gateways that have opened up on the transatlantic routes, I must have missed something.

DL began nonstop service from their SLC hub to CDG last month.
http://blog.delta.com/2008/06/12/first-flight-salt-lake-city-to-paris/

However, that service had nothing to do with last year's US-EU Open Skies agreement, as US-France has been an Open Skies market since 2001.

[Edited 2009-07-25 12:43:41]

User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3588 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4795 times:



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 21):
Please name me the new gateways that have opened up on the transatlantic routes, I must have missed something.

Have you been sleeping for the entire last decade? Do you really not have any idea of all the new TATL routes that have developed over the last 10 years? GLA?, EDI?, How about the USA-Russia and Ukraine routes?, or maybe the other new USA-Eastern European routes? Heck, even CLE had some European service for a brief period! How about the USA-India and Africa traffic (overflying the traditional EU hubs). How about the Middle East services that have opened up (overflying the traditional EU hubs)? This is all about avoiding double connections through two hubs (The Airbus theory) and flying hub-single spoke (The Boeing theory).

quote=EbbUK,reply=21]But I see no new gateways of the type you describe. Certainly not on this isle.[/quote]

How about EDI and GLA service with 757s? (bypassing the traditional England hubs)? I think that they are on the same Isle as you. LCY is starting service to the USA for heavens sake! Is that not a new gateway? Is that not in the UK?


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24899 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4754 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 23):
How about EDI and GLA service with 757s? (bypassing the traditional England hubs)? I think that they are on the same Isle as you. LCY is starting service to the USA for heavens sake! Is that not a new gateway? Is that not in the UK?

And whilst not transatlantic, non VLA's have been used to open up routes from the likes of NCL, BHX and GLA to DXB.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
25 Avek00 : Sure you have -- thanks to the expansion by US carriers using primarily non-VLA 757/767 equipment, more UK cities now have nonstop access to the USA
26 DLPMMM : Very good examples. I am sure that most people that do not live in London would prefer to avoid LHR and LGW if they could for international travel. T
27 Nickofatlanta : I imagine BA has quite a significant FF base at JFK and probably not an insignificant one in AMS. I agree with MAH4546 in that more integration with
28 EbbUK : Clearly have, at least eight hours per day. These are hardly new. Well yes ok there is that one granted Bristol fairly new the others were already es
29 DLPMMM : ????? Your premise was that the A380 obsoletes smaller aircraft as Airbus' "Hub to Hub" theory will blow away the "Hub to Point" theory that Boeing i
30 MaverickM11 : This model will never ever ever work. If you want the premium passenger, you need to offer a premium schedule--or make the economics work on highly d
31 Post contains links EbbUK : Point to POINT never mentioned hub nor did Boeing when talking about the 787 now late. Sorry I wasn't talking about last 10yrs. The 787 wasn't launch
32 JER757 : I disagree with the NYC point. NYC-LON is a huge market, and BA by far hold the majority stake in it. There aren't many airlines which operate 10 747
33 DLPMMM : Apparently you must have a reading problem. It is well explained in the article that YOU cited. If you would care to quote the next paragraph, then m
34 MaverickM11 : You can only go to one place on BA nonstop from NYC. If you're a NYC resident, your airline of choice is probably not going to be BA, unless you only
35 Avek00 : I wouldn't be so sure of that, as some of those markets get double-dailies from CO, at least during peak travel periods.
36 Avek00 : To the contrary, the preference for VLAs is being scuppered by the current economic environment and increasingly integrated multilateral alliances th
37 EbbUK : Yes you are right.
38 BMI727 : The timing was terrible, but I think that BA should also integrate OpenSkies with its main brand, much like the new LCY-JFK service. By the way, is t
39 AirNZ : So's BFS, but you seem to have left that out. Absolute nonsense. You are joking, right? I would hardly call 10 747 and 777 flights a day between LON-
41 VV701 : The perception that BA is a minor player in NYC and that "if you're a NYC resident, your airline of choice is probably not going to be BA, unless you
42 AirNZ : Hmmm yeah! you already made that statement, so why the need to repeat it as an 'answer' to my comment? I don't see any sensible point? I mean, let me
43 RedChili : During the past few years, AFAIK we've got two airlines that have tried point-to-point on long haul: Open Skies and Oasis Hong Kong. And both were fai
44 MaverickM11 : I'm sorry I just assumed you didn't read or understand it otherwise you wouldn't have made that comment. If you're a NYC business traveler, who is yo
45 PHKLM : This doesn't come as a surprise at all to me. Despite the popular believe at A.net the 757-200 has extremely high CASM on TATL sectors due to the natu
46 Hardiwv : Very nad news and it shows how difficult it is to crack into the AMS-US market without cooperation with KLM and NW/DL, although UA, US, and CO have ma
47 DLPMMM : You are right in that the "point to point" definition as used by Boeing is often misinterpreted by many to exclude all hubs. The A380 is a "hub to hu
48 Hardiwv : Well, OpenSkies also had BA pax base in AMS because the flight was codeshared with BA, but you are right. Rgs,
49 EbbUK : Trust Boeing not to know the difference between Point to Point and Hub to Point and say one when they meant the other. I certainly got confused. I am
50 Viscount724 : I don't think BA unions would ever accept that. If not mistaken, that's one of the primary reasons Open Skies was established as a separate operation
51 BMI727 : True point-to-point flying will probably be pretty rare since if there was that much money in it, one of those places would be a hub.
52 Goldorak : This service gegan last year, not last month
53 Antonovman : They could not do that. AFAIK the cabin crew are american and the LCY-JFK will be crewed by LGW cabin crew. I guess the pilots could move over but i
54 VV701 : Correct. Although some are interpreting "point-to-point" air travel as a journey between two non-hub airports, does it not really refer to a journey
55 EbbUK : So it is clear Boeing said one thing but actually meant something else. My statement was that the case put forward at the launch of the 7evenL8r7 for
56 Hardiwv : JFK-AMS has as high yields as ZRH-JFK or GVA-JFK. The issue in AMS is fierce competition on the one hand and as you said lack of integration in OW (A
57 DLPMMM : You knew exactly what Boeing meant, as you posted the link to the article, you just wished to misconstrue the meaning in order to promote meaningless
58 EbbUK : Oh no I didn't. However, thanks to your counsel, I am wiser. Well have you seen a 787 fly? I haven't. It's my catchy branding for the product. Clearl
59 VV701 : A (if not the) major factor in the EC withdrawl from the AMS-JFK route is that the launch of their service aimed solely at business travellers unfortu
60 TravelExec : Plenty more long-haul failures to add to the list... Air Madrid, Zoom, Eos, MaxJet, FlySilverJet, l'Avion [I know this last one lives on in Open Skie
61 MAH4546 : Doubt it. With ZRH they might be somewhat level, but I especially doubt that JFK-AMS yields can match JFK-GVA. That's just laughable.
62 Post contains links BALHRWWCC : Noticed on the Openskies blog page that they now have 25% market share between PAR and NYC. http://blog.flyopenskies.com/ That is pretty good going in
63 MaverickM11 : Share of what? How does one 757, operated by a carrier that is not the preferred brand in NYC or PAR, get 25% of anything, when there are 6 +/- AF fl
64 BALHRWWCC : 25% of business class traffic possibly??
65 MAH4546 : OS has three daily 757s - two from JFK and one from EWR.
66 OA412 : Laughable based on what? You haven't provided any data to prove otherwise.
67 MaverickM11 : Oh I only saw one today, but even so, they're still barely 4% of the total seats in the market. Even if they're 100% local, which is pretty likely, 2
68 Viscount724 : What is your source of that data? I find that very hard to believe when neither KL nor NW operates F class service JFK-AMS. Although LX (and previous
69 BMI727 : Let me point out that neither NW nor DL have an international first class product. The only American legacy carriers that do are United and American
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