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DL Files For Seasonal Flexibility To MAO, FOR, REC  
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Posted (4 years 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 4671 times:

Looks like the rumours going on were right:

Quote:
Delta Air Lines, Inc.

OST-2008-0227 - Exemption and Frequencies - US-Brazil

July 28, 2009

Motion for Seasonal Service Flexibility

Delta Air Lines, Inc. hereby moves to convert its ten US-Brazil restricted regional service frequencies, awarded by NOAT dated August 8, 2008 in the captioned docket, from year-round to seasonal use.

Delta is currently using all ten of its regional Brazil frequencies for Atlanta-Fortaleza, Atlanta-Manaus, and Atlanta-Recife service. However, these beach and ecotourism markets are highly seasonal, and Delta plans to temporarily suspend service in mid-August after the end of the summer peak. Delta plans to resume full utilization of all ten frequencies by mid-December, 2009. Seasonal service flexibility is appropriate for these markets as it will allow similar future schedule adjustments in periods of slack demand.

The relief sought by Delta is fully consistent with the dormancy waiver relief and/or seasonal flexibility previously granted to every other major U.S. international carrier.

Counsel: Delta, Sascha Van der Bellen, 202-842-4184

Source: airlineinfo.com



44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (4 years 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

No surprise here. The markets never really made sense in the first place. And now with "seasonal" flexibility, Delta can keep the frequencies and fly them for mid-June through mid-August and during the Brazilian summer holiday break, mid-December through late January.


a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (4 years 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 4650 times:
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As previously discussed, seems that DL confirm the difficulties to deal with MAO, REC and FOR. Good to AA that will have more room to develop it's services (and may be reintroduce the 763 soon) and bad for markets like FOR that will lose their single flight to the United States.


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (4 years 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 4621 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
bad for markets like FOR that will lose their single flight to the United States.

Hopefully AA will be at FOR in June 2010. That's what signs are point at. And AA will have the ability to provide FOR with at least four weekly 75Ls a week year-round, possibly daily if AA were to route it as a round-robin with Belem.

Despite criticism of how AA routes the SSA/REC flights, it operates daily 10 months out of the year, and AA has done a good job steadily increasing loads.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (4 years 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 4584 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Hopefully AA will be at FOR in June 2010. That's what signs are point at. And AA will have the ability to provide FOR with at least four weekly 75Ls a week year-round, possibly daily if AA were to route it as a round-robin with Belem.

May be good to focus on NAT instead of BEL. Hope you're right about AA plans as DL is not looking to year-round service. But all depends on developing a little more the Northeast to connections.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Despite criticism of how AA routes the SSA/REC flights, it operates daily 10 months out of the year, and AA has done a good job steadily increasing loads

I'm not surprised with AA performance, but i'm surprised with DL !



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 4497 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Hopefully AA will be at FOR in June 2010. That's what signs are point at. And AA will have the ability to provide FOR with at least four weekly 75Ls a week year-round,

Not if DL is smart enough to fly to FOR from FLL instead of ATL; But that's something IMHO, very unlikely to happen.
Southeast Florida is where the FOR O/D traffic is. Any other traffic, to/from BOS, JFK (?) DL could sent via ATL, specially if the route for that B757 is ATL-FLL-FOR.
Look what DL has done in GEO, they fly it from JFK, not from ATL.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 4477 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 4):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Despite criticism of how AA routes the SSA/REC flights, it operates daily 10 months out of the year, and AA has done a good job steadily increasing loads

I'm not surprised with AA performance, but i'm surprised with DL !

But that doesn't at all mean AA is making money. On several queries to REC, AA comes up with a lower price which means they just are filling more seats but with lower average fares. It's not hard to fill seats if you price low enough. DL is apparently not committed to filling seats just so they can say they fly year round.

Remember, in DOT data, on a stage length adjusted basis, AA underperforms every other US carrier on every route they fly to GIG and GRU except for from JFK. In the latest traffic reports from Brazil, AA's core MIA routes had far lower LFs than other carriers as well.

Let's keep in mind that UA is also operating its 7 GIG flights only a couple months per year seasonal basis as well.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
But that doesn't at all mean AA is making money.

Oh just can it. DL's entrance into secondary Brazil has been a total train wreck.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
. DL is apparently not committed to filling seats just so they can say they fly year round.

To infer DL has any strategy whatsoever in Brazil outside of ATL/JFK<>GRU/GIG is to give them way too much credit

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 5):
Not if DL is smart enough to fly to FOR from FLL instead of ATL

They would be crushed by AA and JJ.

[Edited 2009-07-28 15:33:02]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 4437 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
But that doesn't at all mean AA is making money.

Oh just can it. DL's entrance into secondary Brazil has been a total train wreck.

But can't we selectively pick certain data points - the data points we pick can vary by route - and then show how Delta is stronger? We'll ignore the whole picture, just look at individual data points where Delta outperforms American.



a.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (4 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 4413 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
But can't we selectively pick certain data points - the data points we pick can vary by route - and then show how Delta is stronger? We'll ignore the whole picture, just look at individual data points where Delta outperforms American.

Funny thing is, a lot of people on here are guilty of the exact same thing. Besides, he's right, there is no proof that AA is profitable in secondary markets unless you have "data points" you'd care to share that prove otherwise.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Oh just can it. DL's entrance into secondary Brazil has been a total train wreck.

Like I said above, do you have data that indicates otherwise vis-a-vis AA? We really don't have evidence one way or the other.

[Edited 2009-07-28 15:43:24]


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (4 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 4402 times:

Even though I'm pro-Delta, I have to admit that DL's strategy in Brazil has been a disaster. The only alternative I see right now is going full force into daily ATL-BSB and 3-weekly ATL-FOR. They should just forget about REC and MAO.

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (4 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 4389 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
The only alternative I see right now is going full force into daily ATL-BSB and 3-weekly ATL-FOR. They should just forget about REC and MAO.

That may very well be what happens. I'm sure they're waiting on the results from ATL-BSB to see what do with the secondary markets.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 4333 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
They would be crushed by AA and JJ.

Why no DL ATL-FLL-FOR now?, Because both AA and JJ are already flying MIA-FOR non-stop? Could DL easily move the route authority from ATL to FLL if they wish to do so?

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
The only alternative I see right now is going full force into daily ATL-BSB and 3-weekly ATL-FOR.

ATL-BSB daily could be overkill, maybe better for DL to fly 4 weekly red-eyes both ways; FOR 3 weekly, red-eyes both ways. With maybe extra frequency to both destinations during Brazilian holiday seasons.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
They should just forget about REC and MAO

Agree.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (4 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 4311 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
ATL-BSB daily could be overkill, maybe better for DL to fly 4 weekly red-eyes both ways; FOR 3 weekly, red-eyes both ways. With maybe extra frequency to both destinations during Brazilian holiday seasons.

I don't think it's. I actually think that it won't work for them at BSB if they don't fly daily. That's the only way to make the service attractive.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (4 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 4287 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 9):

Funny thing is, a lot of people on here are guilty of the exact same thing. Besides, he's right, there is no proof that AA is profitable in secondary markets unless you have "data points" you'd care to share that prove otherwise.

Except nobody here is claiming it is profitable. It has met AA's expectations (with regards to passenger loads; but not cargo), but not even AA is expecting a new market in a new region to be an overnight profit. There is a difference.

It's extremely difficult to enter an international market and profit within 6 months. Even often, the first year is operated at a loss.

While we cannot determine profit, we can infer relative success. And based on load-factors, its clear Delta is struggling. DL's MAO average sub-40% loads, AA's CNF reaching 80% after four weeks.

[Edited 2009-07-28 16:40:44]


a.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22715 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (4 years 12 months ago) and read 4196 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 13):
I actually think that it won't work for them at BSB if they don't fly daily. That's the only way to make the service attractive.

If it's the only US-BSB service, does that make a difference? It seems like 4x per week is much more attractive if it's the only nonstop option to the states than if it's against, say, 14 weekly flights on OALs.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4171 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
If it's the only US-BSB service, does that make a difference? It seems like 4x per week is much more attractive if it's the only nonstop option to the states than if it's against, say, 14 weekly flights on OALs.

The alternatives through GRU and GIG are very competitive.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22715 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4157 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 16):
The alternatives through GRU and GIG are very competitive.

They are. But let's say I want to travel from DEN to BSB, and the n/s BSB flight only runs one of the days I want to go. Assuming I want to do it all on one airline, my options are

1) DEN-ATL-BSB-GRU-ATL-DEN (and the connection in GRU is sort of a pain, as it's domestic to international)

--or--

2) DEN-DFW-GRU-BSB-GRU-DFW-DEN (same caveat as before, and an added international-domestic connection at GRU on the way south).

It seems like an easy choice to me... obviously, the best would be DEN-ATL-BSB-ATL-DEN, but (1) is clearly superior to (2).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4123 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
But that doesn't at all mean AA is making money. On several queries to REC, AA comes up with a lower price which means they just are filling more seats but with lower average fares. It's not hard to fill seats if you price low enough. DL is apparently not committed to filling seats just so they can say they fly year round.

No one make money on secondary routes. But i don't expect DL or AA to expect profits as mostly markets have no cargo and no strong premium demand

Quoting OA412 (Reply 11):
That may very well be what happens. I'm sure they're waiting on the results from ATL-BSB to see what do with the secondary markets.

ATL-BSB probably will perform very well in terms of passengers, but also will lack cargo support.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

I have no doubt Delta can do well at Brasilia initially, but their exclusivity in the market will not last more than 6 to 9 months.


a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4097 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 16):
The alternatives through GRU and GIG are very competitive.

Because of the lack of options.
Going thru GIG or GRU means at least more 3:30 hours.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4064 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):

Because of the lack of options.
Going thru GIG or GRU means at least more 3:30 hours.

Yes, but you know how it works in terms of fares, not to mention the fact that the average passenger doesn't see the difference between flying BSB-ATL-NYC or BSB-GRU-NYC for example..


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4000 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4023 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
But that doesn't at all mean AA is making money. On several queries to REC, AA comes up with a lower price which means they just are filling more seats but with lower average fares. It's not hard to fill seats if you price low enough.

I've said that over and over again about the price leader for JFK-GRU, DL, and you have continuously argued that DL does just fine at it. So I don't get your point. It is possible AA is happy with its revenue at REC.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 9):
Funny thing is, a lot of people on here are guilty of the exact same thing. Besides, he's right, there is no proof that AA is profitable in secondary markets unless you have "data points" you'd care to share that prove otherwise.

Though what motivated this thread is evidence that DL's routes have been a disaster.

I would hope Brazil would end this piece meal bilateral that only distorts the decisions airlines make. Bureaucrats at their worst!


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3938 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 21):
Yes, but you know how it works in terms of fares, not to mention the fact that the average passenger doesn't see the difference between flying BSB-ATL-NYC or BSB-GRU-NYC for example

Agree with this point of view. But BSB can attract traffic from GYN and other points to places without non-stop service like SFO or BOS with also lower fares. For sure O&D will got a bigger price.
Is like TAM is doing with CNF, SSA and REC. You can buy CNF-GIG-JFK, or CNF-GRU-JFK R/T on Business for US$ 2,200. GIG-JFK or GRU-JFK will cost you US$ 3,600



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3842 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
No surprise here. The markets never really made sense in the first place. And now with "seasonal" flexibility, Delta can keep the frequencies and fly them for mid-June through mid-August and during the Brazilian summer holiday break, mid-December through late January.

You were right from the beginning. The decision by DL to open secondary markets in Brazil did not work and this is now plain clear. There is room for one airline to operate into selected secondary markets from Brazil to the US and this is AA because of its hub in MIA and density.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Oh just can it. DL's entrance into secondary Brazil has been a total train wreck.

Correct. It shows again how difficult live is outside GRU and GIG. And never mind, now that MAO, REC, FOR did not work some have the guts to say that DL should try BSB, POA, CWB, SSA, GYN...perhaps VCP?...oh dear...

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
Even though I'm pro-Delta, I have to admit that DL's strategy in Brazil has been a disaster. The only alternative I see right now is going full force into daily ATL-BSB and 3-weekly ATL-FOR. They should just forget about REC and MAO.

DL should focus on GRU and GIG. Full stop.

And now we see why some airlines smartly keep quiet in their position, see UA.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 22):
I would hope Brazil would end this piece meal bilateral that only distorts the decisions airlines make. Bureaucrats at their worst!

Fully agree, this new US-Brazil bilateral is marred by market distortions.

Rgs,


25 WorldTraveler : ah, yes, but DL does have higher average fares out of ATL to GRU and GIG than AA does on a mileage adjusted basis out of MIA or DFW. Why is that/ The
26 2travel2know : If major Brazilian airports outside GRU/GIG can't support DL flights to its ATL mega-hub, What are the chances DL flights from a couple of those airpo
27 Ripcordd : Does anyone here work for AA yield managment or DL yield? If not you guys are talking out of your ass. The only time you can tell is when someone pull
28 MaverickM11 : DL would never get the local traffic over JJ or AA, and it has very little connecting opportunity at FLL. DL is not flying anything in Brazil that it
29 LipeGIG : WT, i was referring to secondary routes to Brazil only. The big market distortion is the fact the Brazilian secondary markets, except BSB, can't rely
30 2travel2know : What local traffic? Between MIA and FOR? Who's flying that route right now? If DL, regardless of the lack of connections available @ FLL, is the 1st
31 MasseyBrown : My unpopular theory: When these routes were planned, the structure of DL's balance sheet and the pressure of US's takeover offer forced them to try t
32 LipeGIG : JFK feeding is more limited and more focused on O&D. You can expect a few connections from Chicago and Boston areas, plus Canada, but i don't believe
33 MaverickM11 : The local market is much better than ATL to any of these places, but they'd have trouble flowing traffic over NYC. Plus DL has never made much of any
34 Incitatus : The simple fact is that DL changes its approach every couple of months. I am afraid I am losing track: DL filed to serve MAO with daily 757, FOR with
35 2travel2know : Of course if all routes DL has tried already have another airline flying them. GEO works (not really Latinamerica but Southamerica) because DL is alo
36 WorldTraveler : DL is flying to exacly the same cities it was awareded in the same route case that AA added SSA and REC in. Those are the facts. Imagine how much bet
37 LipeGIG : I'm a big deffender of secondary destinations and i know how DL got some very interesting routes. However, in Brazil a lot of reasons come on my mind
38 Commavia : I'm personally not thinking that AA is too worried, seeing as their operating profit and yield substantially outperformed Delta's both to Latin Ameri
39 Incitatus : Double-U-tee - I agree with that. Unprofitable product lines should be canned - unless they pay off through bringing other profitable business. I com
40 Ualcsr : This is why I always enjoy and appreciate your posts. I said the same thing a few months/year ago and got flamed by the usual bunch.
41 MAH4546 : AA and DL are both temporarily suspending roughly the same amount of capacity - seven weekly 763s - from Russia this winter. It's a tough market, and
42 MasseyBrown : Agreed; but they were desperate. Balance sheets can be straitjackets.
43 MaverickM11 : According to you that makes DL's network more "spread out" while AA has a "smaller network". All the problems at AA, and there are lots, don't change
44 Incitatus : Those are the facts depending on the period of the year. With DL suspending REC/FOR for low season, and over some weeks flying MAO 2 x week, it will
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