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New Bill Proposes ATP/1500 Hour Minimums For 121  
User currently offlinePocho From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 91 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 14648 times:

Better start racking up those hours!

Under the "Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009", the bill would require, at a minimum, an ATP in order to fly for a Part 121 airline.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-07-29-rwairsafe_N.htm

Per the USAToday, the bill would:

• "Require that all airline pilots obtain an Airline Transport Pilot license, which is currently only needed by captains. Pilots must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours to obtain the license. Co-pilots may now be hired at airlines with as little as about 200 hours, though most begin airline work with more experience.

• Mandate that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) within 90 days set up a new database of pilot records so that airlines will have access to more information before they hire someone for the cockpit. The captain of the jet that crashed near Buffalo had failed several FAA-mandated tests of his piloting skills, but his airline did not know about all of them when it hired him.

• Direct the FAA within one year to rewrite the rules for how long pilots can work. Several attempts to rewrite the rules to make piloting less prone to fatigue have failed in recent decades. FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt also has vowed to update the rules.

• Require airlines and travel websites when they sell tickets to disclose the name of the carrier operating the flight. About half of all flights are operated by regional airlines working under contract to major carriers, but those regionals almost never sell tickets directly to passengers. Most of the regional flights are flown with the name of the major carrier painted on their aircraft.

• Set up numerous studies and task forces to examine how best to train pilots, minimize pilot fatigue and run a safe airline."

---------------

If the bill is passed, the days of hiring 300 TT hour pilots would be a thing of the past. On the other hand, I wonder what will happen to the current Part 121 pilots who don't have 1500TT yet. My guess is they would be grandfathered under the rule.

124 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMSNDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14526 times:

I would think that for a right seat at a regional, they could reduce it to 1,000 to 1,200 if the individual has "X" hours of multi-engine and/or turbine. The training one can obtain these days is much better than 30 years ago when many started as FE's, built hours then moved to the right seat.

Quoting Pocho (Thread starter):
Mandate that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) within 90 days set up a new database of pilot records so that airlines will have access to more information before they hire someone for the cockpit. The captain of the jet that crashed near Buffalo had failed several FAA-mandated tests of his piloting skills, but his airline did not know about all of them when it hired him.

They can do that now. Doesn't require a bill.

Quoting Pocho (Thread starter):
Direct the FAA within one year to rewrite the rules for how long pilots can work. Several attempts to rewrite the rules to make piloting less prone to fatigue have failed in recent decades. FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt also has vowed to update the rules.

They can do this now too. Doesn't require a bill.

Quoting Pocho (Thread starter):
Require airlines and travel websites when they sell tickets to disclose the name of the carrier operating the flight. About half of all flights are operated by regional airlines working under contract to major carriers, but those regionals almost never sell tickets directly to passengers. Most of the regional flights are flown with the name of the major carrier painted on their aircraft.

They do this already. "Operated by American Eagle", right there in the reservation.

Quoting Pocho (Thread starter):
Set up numerous studies and task forces to examine how best to train pilots, minimize pilot fatigue and run a safe airline."

Waste of money. This has already been done numerous times.


User currently offlineBhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14513 times:

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on here. What A-Hole Senator came up with this one? Thanks for killing my dreams at possibly becoming a pilot, I don't have the $$$ to finish and get the hours now for an ATP.

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14496 times:



Quoting Bhmdiversion (Reply 2):
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on here. What A-Hole Senator came up with this one? Thanks for killing my dreams at possibly becoming a pilot, I don't have the $$$ to finish and get the hours now for an ATP.

I don't think there were very many pilots hired at 121 airlines in the past with less than 1500 hours anyway. So do it like it has been done for years; get your CFI and teach for a couple of years, fly freight for a 135 carrier, fly tourists at the Grand Canyon, fly parachute jumpers in the summer, or any of the hundreds of other low-time-available jobs (once the economy picks up and the furloughed airline pilots move out of those jobs). 1500 hours isn't that hard to get, even without working for a 121 carrier.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14479 times:



Quoting Bhmdiversion (Reply 2):
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on here. What A-Hole Senator came up with this one? Thanks for killing my dreams at possibly becoming a pilot, I don't have the $$$ to finish and get the hours now for an ATP.

Oh I'm so sorry you don't get to be a 250 hour wonder kid at an airline. If you are dedicated and follow the traditional path below you can make it and only 2-3 years later than you could have otherwise. Along the way you'll actually learn how to be a PIC and have your flight skills tested in some of the hardest environments imaginable (135 night cargo IFR flying). This bill will weed out all of the students who aren't serious and dedicated to being a PROFESSIONAL pilot. Put in the time, pay your dues, and gain the necessary experience to be an airline pilot.

Quoting HAL (Reply 3):
I don't think there were very many pilots hired at 121 airlines in the past with less than 1500 hours anyway. So do it like it has been done for years; get your CFI and teach for a couple of years, fly freight for a 135 carrier, fly tourists at the Grand Canyon, fly parachute jumpers in the summer, or any of the hundreds of other low-time-available jobs (once the economy picks up and the furloughed airline pilots move out of those jobs). 1500 hours isn't that hard to get, even without working for a 121 carrier.

Spot on, 121 dreamers will even be surprised to learn they can make more money flight instructing or flying cargo than they can their first couple of years as an FO at a regional.


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14452 times:



Quoting Pocho (Thread starter):
Better start racking up those hours!

Oh great. I'm a student-less CFII just shy of 300hrs and there's no way in hell I'm getting a flying job anytime soon. I've been sending out resumes left and right and haven't heard back from anybody. A buddy of mine sent out 86 resumes and got ONE call for a relay pilot operation. Turns out it was a really shady operation but now he has nowhere to go since if he quits he'd be jobless.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
(once the economy picks up and the furloughed airline pilots move out of those jobs).

Which won't be anytime soon.  banghead 

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
121 dreamers will even be surprised to learn they can make more money flight instructing or flying cargo than they can their first couple of years as an FO at a regional.

I am not surprised. And not one of my CFI friends makes more than what they pay at a mediocre-paying regional.


User currently offlineDfanucci From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14425 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
Oh I'm so sorry you don't get to be a 250 hour wonder kid at an airline.

+1

Personally, I'd like to shake the hand of that Senator. It's about frickin time some sort of movement is made. Pilots are over worked and under paid. Putting pilots with 500 hours under thier belt in the cockpit as PIC should be flat out illegal. 1500 hours should be that absolute minimum. Paying regional pilots peanuts has destroyed those that have paid thier dues....


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12966 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14416 times:



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):
Quoting Pocho (Thread starter):
Set up numerous studies and task forces to examine how best to train pilots, minimize pilot fatigue and run a safe airline."

Waste of money. This has already been done numerous times.

Yes, this is what politicians do when they want to look like they are doing SOMETHING while acutally doing NOTHING.

Everyone knows the current rules around schduling pilots guarantee fatigue, but doing something about it would cost the airlines money.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):

Oh I'm so sorry you don't get to be a 250 hour wonder kid at an airline. If you are dedicated and follow the traditional path below you can make it and only 2-3 years later than you could have otherwise. Along the way you'll actually learn how to be a PIC and have your flight skills tested in some of the hardest environments imaginable (135 night cargo IFR flying). This bill will weed out all of the students who aren't serious and dedicated to being a PROFESSIONAL pilot. Put in the time, pay your dues, and gain the necessary experience to be an airline pilot.

Agree, but your last sentance makes you come across like an arrogent jerk.

Get the experience you need, and the best way to do this is by putting in the time.

As you yourself pointed out there's ways to do that while making decent money.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14397 times:



Quoting Dfanucci (Reply 6):
Putting pilots with 500 hours under thier belt in the cockpit as PIC should be flat out illegal. 1500 hours should be that absolute minimum.

You do know that no PIC on an airliner has less than 1500 hours, right?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 743 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14363 times:

I'm not sure I agree with making every 121 pilot have an ATP.

Quoting Pocho (Thread starter):
• Require airlines and travel websites when they sell tickets to disclose the name of the carrier operating the flight. About half of all flights are operated by regional airlines working under contract to major carriers, but those regionals almost never sell tickets directly to passengers. Most of the regional flights are flown with the name of the major carrier painted on their aircraft.

This is already required by law so what's new about this. As an agent I was required to tell a person I was selling a ticket to that the flight was a XXX Express flight operated by XXXX Airline for each leg of the reservation that wasn't being operated by the major partner. Agents are even supposed to let the customer know that he/she was booked on a code shared flight which is not operated by the airline they bought the ticket from.


User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14300 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 5):
I am not surprised. And not one of my CFI friends makes more than what they pay at a mediocre-paying regional.

Ok, get a minimum wage job to supplement your income and split some time with your CFI buddies. Mabye room with 3-4 of them in a studio apartment and eat nothing but Ramen noodles and peanuts, at least that way you'll get to see what the first couple of years at a regional is like. You might want to get used to that kind of lifestyle because as a 1st year FO you'll most likely qualify for food stamps and live in a crashpad.

It's not like any regionals are hiring now anyways. You have 5,000+ ALPA pilots (not counting the non-union or non-ALPA) out on the street right now that have way more time than you. You'd be stuck flight instructing anyways for years.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Agree, but your last sentance makes you come across like an arrogent jerk.

Yes it might seem that way, but it's equally arrogant or even more so to think you have what it takes after 250 hours of flying to pilot a commercial aircraft.


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14285 times:

You know, something along these lines might just kill the 250-hour wunderkind phenomenon, and I don't think that'd be a bad thing. At all.

You can have the best flying education in the world, but at 250 hours, you're still unbelievably dangerous. Sophomoric. There is no one-for-one substitute for experience, not even close.

The problem for most of the newbies I see out there isn't building the hours. It's just that it's not particularly glamorous. There's nothing sexy to those out there infected with Shiny Jet Syndrome about flying a beat-to-hell Centurion on an NDB approach to "minimums" in a blinding snowstorm. It takes a certain kind of individual to prosper, or even want to try their hand, in the OOTSK. There's nothing appealing to those guys about teaching a timid 70-year-old how to land a 17,000 hour Cessna at a local flying club.

So they just dig into their trust fund or go outrageously into debt to these ridiculous Zero to Hero programs.

I could've sworn I had Opie Taylor as my FO the last time I boarded a commercial ERJ.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinePhxplanes From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14244 times:

I think this is crazy. I agree that 250 hours is extremely low but 1500 hours and ATP is a little extreme. I think people have already forgot about what the hiring frenzy was like a few years ago. The only reason they were hiring low time pilots was because they needed a lot of pilots at the time. Once the economy gets going again this will probably happen again and eventually your going to run out of people with 1500 hours and an ATP so then what do the airlines do?

User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14225 times:



Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 12):
Once the economy gets going again this will probably happen again and eventually your going to run out of people with 1500 hours and an ATP so then what do the airlines do?

IF that happens, the laws of supply and demand will take over and they'll have to raise their starting wages to something more respectable to attract guys from Part 135 operators, Airforce, and corporate flight departments who want to be airline pilots but like making more money at their current jobs than they would as an FO at regional.

FYI, it would cost less than $2 per passenger on a 2 hour flight to nearly double a typical FO starting salary at an airline. Don't bother with the, it's too expensive arguments or it'll destroy passenger demand because it isn't true.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14155 times:



Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 12):
I agree that 250 hours is extremely low but 1500 hours and ATP is a little extreme.

Agreed. In Europe, they put pilots with very low time (perhaps as low as 250) in the right seat, and we don't hear of these sort of problems there. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do, of course, but it is evidence that it may not be vitally necessary to require 1500 hours before getting hired as an FO.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14126 times:

Nothing more than a senator here trying to rear his ugly head into what should be an FAA decision. Typical, really.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 13):
FYI, it would cost less than $2 per passenger on a 2 hour flight to nearly double a typical FO starting salary at an airline.

Yes, yes, we've heard your math ad-nauseum in the 10 different threads that have talked about this in the past week. Oddly enough, you never seem to be able to justify why any increase in fares should be passed straight onto the pockets of pilots and not FAs, techs, ground handlers, gate agents, back-office or even, gasp, maybe even the shareholders that have been shouldering this industry for decades without receiving a single dime of return on investment. But then again, expecting a union pilot to think about anyone else but himself would be a bit too much, wouldn't it?

Change the way pilots are paid (by seniority and size of aircraft instead of job difficulty, hours away from home, etc.) and maybe you can afford to pay living wages to entry-level pilots that, for the most part, have a much more difficult job than a captain flying SFO-FRA once a week. But, just like in fraternities, senior pilots seem to consider junior pilots as nothing more than frosh to be hazed and made to suffer what they did. The seniority system in airlines is a giant ponzi scheme if there ever was one.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineG4LASRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14081 times:

I don't see what's wrong with a 1500 hour requirement - if (and only if) you're serious enough about the profession you'll find a way to build the time. It's called "paying your dues." Times are tough and pilots are once again a dime a dozen and probably will be for a couple more years. The dues have gone up for now.

But I must say, I wish I could have landed in the right seat of a regional anything when I had only 250 hours (in 1979). As one of my instrument instructors (an F-27 captain for RW that loved to both fly and teach) used to say, "I've got more time over the outer marker than that!"

These days I have 2100 hours and an ATP and still can't get in the right or left seat of anything unless I pay for it. I'm broke - and non-current - for now.

So, all you wannabees out there, shut up and go fly.



"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
User currently offlineSB From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14050 times:

Flame me if you want, but I fail to see how having 1500 hours flying parachutists, towing gliders or any other "little-aeroplane" GA flying makes someone a better "big-jet" airline pilot. It's like comparing sport cars and coaches - their handing and method of operation don't have much in common. If anything I would speculate that the transition to multi-crew, strict SOPs and CRM to be harder after years of flying solo.

Also, in Europe and the Far East (and probably elsewhere) graduating from flight school straight into the right seat of a B737/A320/MD80/etc is considered normal, people who go into GA usually make a career of it or are forced to due to passing economical difficulties.
The north american "earn your wings the hard way" method isn't universally accepted as the best one... I think it's downright derogatory to have to work for scraps to earn the right to have a proper flying job.

S.



"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14041 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 10):
Mabye room with 3-4 of them in a studio apartment and eat nothing but Ramen noodles and peanuts, at least that way you'll get to see what the first couple of years at a regional is like. You might want to get used to that kind of lifestyle because as a 1st year FO you'll most likely qualify for food stamps and live in a crashpad.

With all due respect, I think you are pretty much over exaggerating the Regional Pilots lifestyle. Yes, the pay sucks but the lifestyle is not what you put it to be. I have been friends with a lot of Regional Pilots and they were nowhere near your food stamps and crashpad theory.

You might wanna check on your facts before declaring such conclusions. A lot of Regional pilots get by just fine. All it takes is to manage your finances and maintain a healthy (NOT LAVISH...) lifestyle where one can afford to do so.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13992 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
With all due respect, I think you are pretty much over exaggerating the Regional Pilots lifestyle. Yes, the pay sucks but the lifestyle is not what you put it to be. I have been friends with a lot of Regional Pilots and they were nowhere near your food stamps and crashpad theory.

It's pretty bad the first couple years. I made $22k last year. I can't imagine trying to do that anywhere other than the midwest where the cost of living is low. Even then I was just getting by.

I hope you guys enjoy paying more for your tickets. The whole reason we had 250 hours in the right seats of RJs is because it was easier to lower standards than it was to pay what was required to attract qualified individuals.



DMI
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13975 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 19):
It's pretty bad the first couple years. I made $22k last year.

I guess it has to do with how one lives their lifestyle and how they spend their money.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13956 times:

Even living on the cheap (old car, pack food on trips, small apartment) it's not easy to live on that. I couldn't imagine doing it with a family.

Then again, I knew what I was signing up for. I also know it needs to get better. Hopefully this will turn the supply/demand equation in our favor. If 1500 hours is what it takes I think a lot of people will shy away.



DMI
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13948 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 10):
You might want to get used to that kind of lifestyle because as a 1st year FO you'll most likely qualify for food stamps and live in a crashpad.

No sh!t sherlock. Hence why I'm attempting to skip going through a regional.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 10):
It's not like any regionals are hiring now anyways.

Or anybody else for that matter.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 10):
You'd be stuck flight instructing anyways for years.

Uhm, ok, your point? Any new CFI will be in that position.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 11):
It's just that it's not particularly glamorous.

I'd take an unglamourous banner towing, traffic watch, pipeline patrol or CFI job in a heartbeat, but no, nobody is f'ing hiring.  banghead 


Basically if you're a low time pilot like me, your f'ed until things come around economically and poeple start hiring again.


User currently offlineDfanucci From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13923 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 19):
I hope you guys enjoy paying more for your tickets. The whole reason we had 250 hours in the right seats of RJs is because it was easier to lower standards than it was to pay what was required to attract qualified individuals.

If I have to pay more to have gray temples behind the yoke, then so be it. If I have to pay more to put more money in the pockets of pilots who I put my life in the hands of, then so be it.


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13913 times:



Quoting Dfanucci (Reply 23):

If I have to pay more to have gray temples behind the yoke, then so be it. If I have to pay more to put more money in the pockets of pilots who I put my life in the hands of, then so be it.

Too bad 99.9% of the rest of the world won't agree  Yeah sure


25 Pilotpip : Not to mention that grey temples don't equate to anything. Half of my newhire class at my current regional was older than me, mostly career changers a
26 Silentbob : Upping the left seat requirements would have made more sense to me. I'm not really that concerned with a relatively inexperienced pilot in the right s
27 Dfanucci : Actually, I could care less what you look like. The simple fact that "gray temple" set you off tells me more about you than your 10 years of flying e
28 Lowrider : I like the first and third parts of the bill, but I fail to see how the second part will change anything. The fourth seems incredibly redundant and ig
29 NorCal : They all think about just themselves too and most have their own union and would gladly screw over pilots and any other work group or shareholder to
30 Pilotpip : Glad you got me figured out. Age has nothing to do with experience. I find it a bit insulting when people have gotten off the aircraft saying authori
31 Planespotting : There were quite a few in the past few years. However, I don't think it's really dangerous ... it's not like they're flying solo up there. There's a
32 Bhmdiversion : Oh I'm so sorry you don't get to be a 250 hour wonder kid at an airline. If you are dedicated and follow the traditional path below you can make it a
33 KL911 : Very good idea, let them show first that they can handle everything. I would like to raise the minimum age and lower the maximum age though. Same as i
34 Salukipilot : For some reason I feel like I know where you work.... Ever heard of Expedia, Orbitz, CheapTickets, and Priceline? People follow the cheapest ticket.
35 Mir : It's interesting that so much is being made of the 1500 hour requirement, when the airlines can just take someone with those 1500 hours and fly them t
36 KL911 : Europeans too, that's why Ryanair, Wizzair and Skyeurope are so populair with businessmen nowadays, and i book what they want. Same distance, same se
37 Salukipilot : THANK YOU! Then again that costs money...money airlines dont want to pay...therefore its not going to happen anytime soon.
38 NorCal : They are changing the rules for 121, not 135. For decades pilots used to go license -> CFI -> 135 cargo or something equivalent -> regional -> major.
39 Tb727 : Sounds good to me, it will bring a higher standard to the airlines than the rather low commercial minimums. Get in, work your way up like you should l
40 MCOatc : You're statistical analysis is, like some of your other comments, a little off my friend. I know quite a few people who are not aviation folks who ar
41 Salukipilot : Well as long as there are airplanes there will be people willing to fly them for peanuts, no matter the hourly requirement. Its more of a social thin
42 Cubsrule : I hear what you're saying. OTOH, though, doesn't the captain necessarily have to do some amount of training? If ZW hires a guy with 10,000 hours of e
43 Post contains links FighterPilot : Welcome to Canada, it's already the standard for our ATPL pilots. Excerpt from the CARS: (4) Experience An applicant shall have met the training requi
44 Ikramerica : How many crashes have there been because the FO was under 1500 hours again? All this does is make it more expensive for anyone to enter the field, it
45 Salukipilot : Think of it this way....if you're serious about flying...you'll get the 1500 hours. Hopefully gone are the days of the 250 hour wonder kids, willing
46 Sancho99504 : I was reading on Airportbusiness.com an article on this topic and read this: "A Plain Dealer review shows an increased rate of deadly incidents at reg
47 Tb727 : By making it more expensive, in theory, I think it will weed out a lot of the people that don't belong in a cockpit. It's all good that there is a Cap
48 Dfanucci : Hehe, yeah I guess we are. But I tend to think that the flying public is moving away from "cheap". It would seem to me that the Airlines currently ma
49 Xdlx : I agree with your statement, but keep in mind India, China, Germany and other countries place a Comm/INST/Multi Pilot on mainline A320 with under 100
50 Flighty : Exactly. This is training on the job. Surgeons do it. It's a non-issue. It is a professional model that works just fine. I'd fly with an FO under 100
51 Silentbob : There are plenty of captains that feel/act that way now, regardless of how much experience the FO has. No, it makes it much more difficult for people
52 Aviateur : Under the "Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009", the bill would require, at a minimum, an ATP in order to fly for a Part 121 air
53 Alias1024 : Now watch what's going to happen. The airlines are going to raise holy hell about this and the FAA will magically pull a new rating out of its ass. AT
54 Lowrider : Hopefully, by the time you have reached 1500 hours, you have developed the judgement to know when to call fatigue, most likely because you have exper
55 Lufthansa411 : From what I have have read in other places, the proposed law would "switch" the way that flights are advertised. In other words, instead of saying "U
56 Max Q : 1500 Hours and an Atp would not have been sufficient to be hired at Cal when I started. Seems very reasonable for a major Airline.
57 Pilotpip : Even Chuck Yeager crashed airplanes. The best pilot out there has a mental capacity similar to that of somebody with a blood alcohol level above the
58 Simpilot459 : As a young, aspiring pilot, I have to say I agree with requiring an ATP and at least 1,000hrs. for FO. I also think pairing new/low time FOs with the
59 Floridaflyboy : Dead wrong! In the regional industry (Part 121 Carriers), there are MANY pilots flying who got hired at less than 1500 hours. As a matter of fact, th
60 Silentbob : I've worked with guys that have been called to company HQ so they can be threatened for calling in sick "too often". The company has also redefined t
61 Salukipilot : I have anything but deep pockets and 1500 hours is more than reasonable for me. When I started flying you needed at least 2500 to get to a regional.
62 FlyMIA : Flying in the United Stats has been the safest it has ever been in history arguably with the amount of flights there are in the US it is the safest pl
63 Salukipilot : Can't do that here in the US...free market and all.
64 ThirtyEcho : 250 hours? You have a license to kill, like James Bond, except it applies to yourself and your passengers. 500 hours puts you at greatest danger. You
65 RiddlePilot215 : This is completely asinine...... 90% of your new pilot pool with a reg like this is literally going to get vaporized. This is also going to make flyin
66 DBCC : Why do you think the JAA does not accept US PPL, CPL and ATPL at face value? JAA has much higher standards and requirements, so a 250 hour JAA CPL ha
67 AirframeAS : No need to as I am not a pilot and have no plans of becoming one. Source?
68 Mir : There are certainly different policies for training and hiring standards. My point was that 1500 hours is not the cure-all it's being made out to be.
69 Lowrider : I am aware of that. I have had to throw the fatigue card a few times myself. I just made sure I could articulate the circumstances that lead up to it
70 NorCal : A couple of websites pilots visit to find out whose hiring and what their mins/pay are like. airlinepilotcentral.com and willflyforfood.com are popul
71 Cubsrule : No pilot who is calling fatigue on 20% of his flights is going to last long, though. Are there regional pilots who should call fatigue on almost that
72 Mir : Which is why putting an hours requirement in will do nothing compared with improving rest rules. -Mir
73 Cubsrule : Might there also be a need for rules regarding commuting? Certainly, the 9L f/o had a pretty brutal commute.
74 Mir : That's a much harder thing to do. What would really solve that is paying the pilots enough that they can afford to live near their base. But that's n
75 Doug_or : More than 2 or 3 calls in a year and I'll bet you're talking to a chief pilot. The only people I know who've ever called in fatigued (and there aren'
76 NorCal : They couldn't expect her to live near EWR on her pathetic salary. She was living with her parents out of necessity. Absolutely That's what should hap
77 Mir : No argument there. But I don't think that a change to 1500 hours will change that mentality. Those sort of people aren't going away. -Mir
78 Cubsrule : But Sully has a similarly bad commute by choice, as do plenty of other relatively highly-paid pilots. Maybe the answer is that, at some point, you kn
79 Mir : Sully also has the seniority to have a fair amount of say over his schedule, and so can plan out his trips to fit into a commuting lifestyle. Not so
80 Cubsrule : That's an excellent point, and US' Airbii fly, on average, much longer flights than any regional aircraft. I'm not sure ANY regional schedule fits we
81 Flighty : Arguably, it was faulty of her to enter the cockpit that night, if she really was so tired. The fact that her "commute" was the reason for the condit
82 Mir : It depends. Some can pull it off. I will say, however, that trying to non-rev to NYC can be an absolute nightmare, so if that's your base, you've bee
83 Post contains links ULMFlyer : But it seems somethings don't change, Patrick. According to the Inflation Calculator, $900 in 1990 is equivalent to approximately $1500 in 2009 or $1
84 Post contains links Pocho : According to the Head of the FAA, these new changes are not necessary. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...is-not-necessary-faas-babbitt.html Per F
85 Sbworcs : Why is that? Do poor people make bad pilots and should flying only be for the rich and elite?
86 Mir : I'm not sure why the is necessary, because he's right: Take a look at Europe, where the training programs are more rigorous, and look at when they pu
87 NorCal : Sully could also afford a hotel room on his salary if he had a hard time commuting for his line. She couldn't afford one and was thus forced to sleep
88 Tb727 : It has nothing to do with your financial background. If it costs more money, people are going to work hard to earn the job of becoming a professional
89 Mir : It's not like it's cheap now. If the goal is to get rid of the "trust fund kids", raising the cost of training isn't going to do it - they'll still b
90 Pilotpip : For those of you bashing the choice to commute. I'll say you have it a bit wrong. I commute. It's a choice I make. However, I accept the consequences
91 Planemaker : Not so. If someone loves flying and doesn't have the money then they can do one of two things... build time in the traditional way or get a well payi
92 Cubsrule : In a perfect world, everyone does the right thing. But we don't live in a perfect world...
93 Pilotpip : You're right, but the vast majority who commute do. As I said it's the price we pay to live somewhere else.
94 Atpcliff : Hi! Currently, it is often difficult to tell who U R flying on. I've been on a LOT of websites, and it says DAL to, say, GRB, or ATW. Now, I know that
95 SandroZRH : You're pretty much spot on. A lot of the European legacies have their own flight school/pilot training programs. LH, LX, AF, KL, OS and AY from the t
96 Cubsrule : Couldn't you make the same argument about rest and qualifications (hours), though?
97 Mir : And it might be beneficial for US carriers to move in this direction. -Mir
98 Pilotpip : Again, yes. But there will always be a couple who slip through the cracks like this captain did. In the grand scheme of things, these regulations won
99 Cubsrule : Do you think it's airlines' reluctance to address fatigue that is keeping the conversation about fatigue from starting, or is it something else? Cert
100 ZKSUJ : Here in NZ its not uncommon for a guy to just make FO in a Dash 8 with 1500-2000Hrs TT with 500+ ME PIC etc... Around 1000TT-1500TT to get into a B190
101 413x3 : so you are just advocating all these low time pilots live with their parents or 5 roomates just to make ends meet "flying tourists" for a whopping 15
102 Planemaker : I think that everyone that is thinking about being an airline pilot should take an economics course before they make a decision on trying to make air
103 413x3 : pay is lousy until citizens realize the less you pay the more chance you have of crashing. if people in America accepted "terrorism" security fees the
104 Flighty : It's not so bad for the guys at the top right now. They benefited from the age 60 retirement rule which propelled them up through the ranks. Now they
105 Planemaker : Because in the quest for profits, every airline trys to match the next airlines's fare... and if it is a dollar cheaper pax will go for it. I don't t
106 Mir : It's the airlines. The pilots and the NTSB have been trying to get the conversation about fatigue started for a while now, but it's never gotten off
107 Planemaker : It will never happen because the pilots are not federal employees while the TSA are. As has been stated many times throughout this thread, it is a pr
108 MHO : As a 250 hr private pilot, I agree whole-heartedly with this statement. Experience is the best teacher, and though 250 may seem like a lot when reach
109 Pocho : Would the bill still pass even though the FAA is against it?
110 Mir : So would you rather have a 1500 hour CFI who's taught in the southwest US for all that time, or a 750 hour CFI who's taught in the northeast, where s
111 MHO : Please do not misunderstand. Of course, the 750 hour CFI who's taught in the northeast, would be more prepared - that's the point actually, maybe not
112 Mir : It was more of a rhetorical question, actually, because the 1500 hour guy will have some advantages over the 750 hour guy. And he will also have disa
113 Lowrider : Don't be so quick to dismiss the guy from the southwest. That part of the country has its own, unique challenges. Your 750 hour guy from the NE might
114 Mir : If you read my Reply #112, you'll see that I didn't. -Mir
115 Planemaker : Again, we come down to supply and demand. Hopefully there will a lot fewer pilots willing to make it through to 1500 and thus reducing the supply of
116 Mir : I hope that's correct. Call me a pessimist, but I don't see it happening. -Mir
117 Cubsrule : It almost seems like it has to happen. At some point, those pilots with a bunch of debt have to make enough money to pay it off.
118 Post contains links Luv2cattlecall : Thanks for being honest about what the real issue here is: pay. It has nothing to do with safety, but unions know that it's much easier to use fear t
119 Post contains links F9Animal : Please read what you quoted below. You did it. You were part of this game. Double standard? Two wrongs make a right for you? So, you got in. Do you d
120 Planemaker : Choosing to live on ramen noodles with no realistic prospect of advancement is not thinking rationally.... it is gambling that somehow they will beat
121 FlyMKG : This entire bill is one big knee jerk reaction to Colgan Flight 3407. The actions of those two pilots do not speak for all pilots at regionals. 1500 h
122 Luv2cattlecall : Agreed. The best part is that both Colgan pilots had well over 2000 hours each!
123 AirframeAS : Thanks! I know my limits.... heh!
124 Cubsrule : If it drives wages up, it should.
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