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KLM And The MD-11  
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15793 times:

I know that all other pax airlines have done away with the MD-11 because it didn't provide the range and performance ot was expected to have, so I'm wondering why is KLM still using it on long-haul routes when they've got the A330, B777, and B747? If it's not up to par with other airlines, what makes KLM the exception?


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15794 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
I know that all other pax airlines have done away with the MD-11

FY has them, and aeroflot gets them soon for pax services. There are routes when they're very usefull, besides, they're fully paid for. Might as well use them, and the oil price is so low now that 3 engines dont make a difference.... ( as long as the hedged enough the last 6 months..  Smile



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15762 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
FY has them, and aeroflot gets them soon for pax services

Unfortunately I don't know Int'l airline codes too well, but if FY is Finnair aren't they also getting rid of them?



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15726 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
FY has them, and aeroflot gets them soon for pax services. There are routes when they're very usefull, besides, they're fully paid for. Might as well use them, and the oil price is so low now that 3 engines dont make a difference.... ( as long as the hedged enough the last 6 months..

Aren't SU using them for cargo ops?

I think KL is planning to hold on to the MD-11's, they recently upgraded the cabins and they look really good, I'm not sure which routes they are used mostly, probably Caribbean routes.

[Edited 2009-07-30 16:59:40]


seemyseems
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15699 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 3):
Aren't SU using them for cargo ops?

Yeah, there is all kinds of cargo ops that use the MD11, but if it's not a stellar performer, then how is KLM making money off of them?



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlineJKJ777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15680 times:

I am HOPING that my flight from AMS-ATH in later August gets subbed out for an MD-11. I know the odds are slim t o none but this sure would be great........anyone know if this ever happens in Europe?

User currently offlineEcuadorianMD11 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15622 times:

KLM uses the MD-11´s to the Dutch Antilles, Peru, Ecuador, Panama and Canada.
And a few more routes, no doubt. I heard rumours about Miami in the future as well.

They will be in service for a good few years to come as the interior is brand spanking.
Very nice actually.........

I think Kenyan Airways chartered 1 MD-11 of KLM as well.

Apparently they got a cheap deal on them and since they are paid for...........they are still economic enough to run.

I fly them quite a lot, hence my username!! Love ´m!

Ecuadorian MD11.


User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 413 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15615 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

KLM uses the MD-11 to YVR and YUL.

BA84


User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15545 times:



Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 6):
Peru

LIM is a none stop B772 service now.

Quoting C5LOAD (Reply 4):

The MD-11's are usually used for leisure routes, like the Caribbean and the ones that EcuadorianMD11 mentioned, I know that they were used for SFO for some time.



seemyseems
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15507 times:

I just know that they now have a lot newer and more advanced airplanes (not that the MD-11 wasn't advanced but you know what I mean) and I had thought the -11 wouldn't have done well for a profit anymore.


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlineMk777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15381 times:

KL 871/872 (AMS-DEL) is also an MD-11, atleast during the summer season. I've been on the flight once. It was a great experience. I had the opportunity to try Marie Curie and Florence Nightingale during my roundtrip.

it would be nice to do it again on the refurbished a/c



come fly with me
User currently offlineEcuadorianMD11 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15323 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 8):


LIM is a none stop B772 service now.

Interesting, didn´t know that!

Quoting C5LOAD (Reply 9):
I had thought the -11 wouldn't have done well for a profit anymore.

I asked that same questions a few months back.
The reply I got was like: "well, they´re paid off..........may as well run ´m........they maybe a bit less profitable, but still profitable".

If you think about it, replacing them would cost a lot of money and KLM is doing just that, but bit by bit.
Their 2nd hand value is probably not worth selling ´m anytime soon, and they are pretty busy so what planes do you use to replace them on those routes?

But yes I agree, it seems odd that they will virtually be the only airline running ´m for pax, and there were about 200 built!

Beautiful names:

PH-KCA Amy Johnson
PH -KCB Maria Montessori
PH -KCC Marie Curie
PH -KCD Florence Nightingale
PH -KCE Audrey Hepburn
PH -KCF Annie Romein
PH -KCG Maria Callas
PH - KCH Anna Pavlova
PH -KCI Mother Theresa
PH -KCK Ingrid Bergman

Ecuadorian MD11.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15253 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
aeroflot gets them soon for pax services

Proof please. Last I heard SU was taking delivery of A332's for pax ops and using MD11's for cargo ops to replace its DC10-40's.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15137 times:



Quoting JKJ777 (Reply 5):
anyone know if this ever happens in Europe?

No, it doesn't, sorry. No chance of getting the MD11 on European routes.

Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 6):
And a few more routes

Yes, like PBM. CUR is served by the 744 now.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 15020 times:



Quoting Mk777 (Reply 10):
KL 871/872 (AMS-DEL) is also an MD-11, atleast during the summer season. I've been on the flight once. It was a great experience. I had the opportunity to try Marie Curie and Florence Nightingale during my roundtrip.

Yes, I'm flying on KL 871 to Delhi next week! Looking forward to see the refurbished cabin

 bouncy   bouncy 

Will be my second time on a KL MD-11.
First time was back in 1996: KL 625 Amsterdam - Memphis


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2169 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14868 times:

I think they're holding until AF-KL takes a big decision on the 787/350, which imo is bound to replace the MD11 (10 frames) and the A343 at AF (19 frames). Talking about a major order there, and probably no delivery until 2014-15 at the very earliest. And the A343 at AF aren't going anywhere either for at least the next 4-5 years based on the feeling i got from different threads here (they've been refurbished recently, too). They (MD11 and A343) just are not the best airliners anymore, but they remain good and do not justify getting rid of them at all costs.

BTW, does 'refurbished' on KL MD11 mean PTV by any chance? (1st MD11 trip coming soon  Wink )



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14851 times:



Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 11):
I asked that same questions a few months back.
The reply I got was like: "well, they´re paid off..........may as well run ´m........they maybe a bit less profitable, but still profitable".

If you think about it, replacing them would cost a lot of money and KLM is doing just that, but bit by bit.
Their 2nd hand value is probably not worth selling ´m anytime soon, and they are pretty busy so what planes do you use to replace them on those routes?

Sometimes I think cashflow and cost gets mixed up in these discussions.

To acquire new planes takes alot of capital (cashflow) and as capital has a price (interest), there is a cost associated.
This is to compare with the cost (interest on alternative resell value) to keep the old equipment.
In addition, the higher cost for maintenance and higher fuel consumption for an older plane is also to take into account, plus some other factors.

I believe KLM has done their homework well and found it to be optimal for them to keep their MD-11s and refurbish the cabin.
As MD-11 is abit of a fuel guzzler with its 3 engines, so a high oil price does not work in their favor.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14822 times:



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 15):
BTW, does 'refurbished' on KL MD11 mean PTV by any chance? (1st MD11 trip coming soon )

Yes, they got PTV in the refurbishment:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thomas Piskol



User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14802 times:



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 15):
BTW, does 'refurbished' on KL MD11 mean PTV by any chance? (1st MD11 trip coming soon )

Yes, with their excellent AVOD system!

Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 11):
Their 2nd hand value is probably not worth selling ´m anytime soon

The MD11's are all leased. The reason they kept the MD11 was because the lease rates on the MD11 are very low, so that compensates the higher fuel burn. If they weren't worthwile, I'm sure KL would have gotten rid of them already, like the a310 and 763 that barely made 10 years in the fleet.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 15):
and probably no delivery until 2014-15 at the very earliest.

That's the timeframe they were looking at to replace the MD11. Not sure if that is still the plan though...



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14745 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 6):
KLM uses the MD-11´s to the Dutch Antilles, Peru, Ecuador, Panama and Canada.

And to Kenya!!

KL4141 D AMS NBO 2125 0635+1 0 13JUL09 01SEP09 M11 8:10

Regards,

Gerard



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14731 times:



Quoting JKJ777 (Reply 5):
I am HOPING that my flight from AMS-ATH in later August gets subbed out for an MD-11. I know the odds are slim t o none but this sure would be great........anyone know if this ever happens in Europe?

Very rarely indeed, only when lots of flights are cancelled because of a strike or something like that, and a big number of pax are stranded. Now, in Europe, ATH is one of the better chances for a strike, but I'm not sure if that's something you're hoping for  Wink

Quoting Kappel (Reply 18):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 15):
and probably no delivery until 2014-15 at the very earliest.

That's the timeframe they were looking at to replace the MD11. Not sure if that is still the plan though...

With all the 787 delays and the earliest available A350 delivery slots in 2017, I'm starting to wonder if KL will use their MD11's till they fall to pieces... A decision from AF/KL about their 787/A350 won't happen this year I don't think  Sad



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT3,ATP,E90,F50/70,M11,
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14687 times:



Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 20):
With all the 787 delays and the earliest available A350 delivery slots in 2017, I'm starting to wonder if KL will use their MD11's till they fall to pieces... A decision from AF/KL about their 787/A350 won't happen this year I don't think

Indeed, well... the 772 and a332 may of course also be possible, although KL did mention that any future 777's would be 77W's.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinePHBUF From Netherlands, joined Mar 2009, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14663 times:

If any future 777s are going to be 77Ws, they are obviously too large to replace the MD-11..and if both A350 and 787 programs are delayed, wouldn't the A333 be a great MD-11 replacement, operating alongside the A332? I've never understood why KL didn't order at least 4 to 6 A333s together with a bunch of A332s.

User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14582 times:



Quoting PHBUF (Reply 22):

It certainly could be a very good selling point by Airbus to offer A333's as interim lift until A350's arrive, some kind of leasing deal like they did with SQ. I'm pretty sure Airbus will go to great lenghts to secure the AF/KL deal... OTOH, Boeing wants to keep especially AF aboard, so they could offer for example 77L's, freeing up 77E's on routes where they are payload restricted and deploy these on M11 routes.



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT3,ATP,E90,F50/70,M11,
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14472 times:



Quoting PHBUF (Reply 22):
I've never understood why KL didn't order at least 4 to 6 A333s together with a bunch of A332s.



Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 23):
It certainly could be a very good selling point by Airbus to offer A333's as interim lift until A350's arrive, some kind of leasing deal like they did with SQ.

IIRC the MD-11 has a larger range than the A333. KLM can't deploy the A333 on sectors like AMS-PTY and AMS-SFO, now served by MD11.


25 Burkhard : MD11s maintained properly ( we can assume with KLM ) do not fall apart.
26 Sibille : KL also operates MD-11 to Tehran.
27 NicoEDDF : Actually, in terms of cargo aircraft, it is quite a stellar performer. There is none 90 ton payload freighter on the market with a comparable volume
28 Kappel : I think it's a good option, but it would require some reshuffeling of the fleet, as mentioned, I'm not sure the a333 has the range for SFO and PTY (w
29 Hardiwv : All KL MD-11 are fully renovated with new Y and C products featuring IFE in both classes. Correct, just correction that SFO is now operated with B74M
30 A388 : Indeed so, I think KL911 is mistaken or we missed out on something. Is their any credible source for SU starting passenger flights with the MD11? A38
31 NicoEDDF : No, because they are not! All M1Fs for SU are destined for pax-to-freighter conversion for SU Cargo.
32 Indio66 : Question: Is there any other plane in the KL fleet that can do SXM / AMS non-stop (with Pax)? Thanks, Indio
33 Hardiwv : I think the B772 and B773 would be able to do it. Rgs.
34 EcuadorianMD11 : Are you sure about that? I thought they owned them..........but maybe it´s just me. Ecuadorian MD11.
35 Viscount724 : The AF-KL 2008-09 annual report has a detailed fleet list for AF, KL and subsidiaries, showing which are owned and which are leased. Unless it's chan
36 C5LOAD : How could I go about finding the routes that KL sends their MD-11s on?
37 AA777223 : and I think the 744 and the A332. I think the better question is, is there any widebody in the KLM fleet that cannot make that run?
38 DM : Hope this helps. AMS-YUL AMS-YVR AMS-JRO AMS-PTY AMS-IKA AMS-PBM AMS-BON AMS-DEL (Also 772)
39 PHBUF : AMS-JRO is incorrect I believe, I think that's always a 772 or 77W I can't believe an A333 would not be able to reach AMS-SFO or AMS-PTY without restr
40 DM : My mistake it is operated by a 777. I believe they used to operate that route with the MD-11 until now!
41 Indio66 : I thought that the 747 could not do it (had to stop at one of the other NL Islands) due to weight issues with a full fuel load to get back to Europe.
42 LACA773 : AMS-SFO is operated with the M11 during othe off season normally, Autum & Winter.
43 EcuadorianMD11 : Bear in mind that the plane continues from BON to both Guayaquil / Quito before returning to BON and finally AMS again. It takes 3 crews to do that h
44 C5LOAD : Wow, none of them fly to the US? I was really hoping to fly on one if one came into the east coast!
45 C5LOAD : I think pretty much every widebody that goes out of SXM with a lot of pax they have to sacrifice fuel, so they have to stop somewhere else.
46 Viscount724 : YUL is only 50 miles from the US border.
47 KL911 : Sorry to create confusion, but I'm sure I saw a topic last week saying that SU would use MD-11's for Pax ops again. Just can't find it anymore...
48 C5LOAD : Have all of DL's MD-11s gone to freighters? If not, I think they should dig them out of the desert and further increase their int'l market. Plus, it w
49 Indio66 : I may be mistaken, but I thought that both KLs MD-11 and AF's 343 can (and do) make it back to Europe from SXM non-stop.
50 Post contains links Lightsaber : Very common here on a.net. There are always cash flow issues at every airline. Even well run once. Perhaps it is considered less harmful to their pro
51 Viscount724 : KL MD-11 delivery dates: 1993 - 1 1994 - 5 1995 - 3 1997 - 1
52 Kappel : You're right, my bad. I guess I got them confused with the 763's, IIRC those were all leased. Anwyay, I stand corrected. The 744 can't due to runway
53 Post contains links and images DM : Apparently for a short period during the winter session of 2008 they had the MD-11's going to JFK. View Large View MediumPhoto © Josh May Nine o
54 Singel09 : @JKJ777 I had an MD-11 once from London Heathrow to Amsterdam, as the regular 737 dropped out. I know KLM did a Transavia flight a few weeks ago to Pa
55 HAM : any chance that they'll send the MD11s to SFO in september? bookings might be low... I really hope for the MD as a replacement for the 74M I would fly
56 AlexEU : I didn´t even know that KLM flies to Ecuador. Does it include a stop in Bonair, Netherlands Antilles?
57 Viscount724 : KL MD-11s have 14 more seats than their 744M combis (294 vs. 280).
58 Trijetsrmissed : Let's not forget, KL's MD-11's are full PIP modified. The majority of the fleet built new that way. Therefore, they are higher performing than most fo
59 BasilFawlty : Yes, AMS-BON-UIO-GYE v.v.
60 EcuadorianMD11 : Minor correction: AMS-BON-GYE-UIO-BON-AMS. I see this flight taking off almost every day.........can watch it from my balcony! Cool stuff.......... C
61 B727LVR : What is the possibility of KLM rolling their MD-11 into their cargo fleet, once they out live their passenger life? Since they are already paid for, I
62 SB : They can. The 777/330 can't due to one-engine-out climb restrictions, and the 744 can't because the runway isn't long enough to depart with a full lo
63 Hardiwv : Your reasoning makes even more sense now that Martinair Cargo was acquired by KL/AF group. Rgs,
64 LJ : The chances KL will convert its MD-11s into freighters are very slim. Not only because of the Martinair MD11Fs (which have different engines if I´m
65 KL911 : Plus KLM doesn't even use it's 2 new 747ERF's. MP is using them at the moment.
66 Readytotaxi : Some 5 years ago I did the MD11 on AMS - AUA in J. Lots of room but suprised how quiet it was, very little vibration.
67 Frigatebird : That might have changes by now. More airlines have deferred delivery than those that have placed orders. Recent orders for 777's by TK and ET show th
68 DesertAir : I was in Quito, Ecuador on July 14th waiting for the 9:30 am AA flight to Miami. I was thrilled to see a KLM MD-11 pull up to one of the gates. I have
69 KL911 : Take the last row in Y class... But even that is a cool experience. I just love the bird.
70 Post contains links and images Andaman : Guys, it's AY!   Most of Finnair's MD11's are gone already, the last one says good bye next winter. At the moment one of AY's MD11 is carrying a Spa
71 Viscount724 : Yes, KL uses GE engines. Martinair's are PW.
72 EcuadorianMD11 : I know the feeling.........it makes a difference between all the domestic traffic, and your regular LAN & AA etc etc. That color........it just stand
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