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EAS Subsidy For ELY NV Is $4500.00 Per Pax  
User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

Senate approve an additional $39 mil for EAS services....

It seems that the Senate Appropraites committee really has no idea what they are spending for EAS services to those communities where EAS is subsidized.

From the article.......

Some of the subsidies, to places like Ely, Nev., Cape Girardeau, Mo., and Havre, Mont., are eye-popping.

Ely, in Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's state, leads the pack with a $4,500 per passenger subsidy, according to new data from the Senate Appropriations Committee. Just 414 people flew out of Ely last year. That's 0.7 passengers per flight, which means that some planes fly empty of passengers.

For Havre, each of its 359 passengers - 0.6 passengers per flight - received an almost $2,900 subsidy.

No matter. On Thursday, the Senate Appropriations Committee approved $175 million for the program, a $39 million increase from current funding. Congress initially provided $123 million in rural air subsidies this year, then added $13 million more as costs spiraled.


You can read the entire article here.....
http://www.2news.tv/news/national/52194827.html

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

One would think that these small towns could be more efficiently served via air taxi operations, flying VLJ's or similar aircraft. It boggles the mind that services like this can be allowed to exist and waste taxpayer money, especially in this economy.

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17510 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5147 times:

Why is ELY connected to DEN via CNY??? Of course no one is going to use that flight. Why not a nonstop to LAS or SLC? If you're going to waste that much money on service wouldn't it be better to at least send passengers where they want to go?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

Nevada is also represented by John Ensign a Republican. So I really don't see the relevance of pointing out that Harry Reid is a Democrat. Ely also happens to be represented by Repulican Dean Heller in the House.
As for the subsidy it just proves what a joke the EAS can be in some casses.



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5048 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Why is ELY connected to DEN via CNY??? Of course no one is going to use that flight. Why not a nonstop to LAS or SLC? If you're going to waste that much money on service wouldn't it be better to at least send passengers where they want to go?

Probably because there is no TSA at ELY. So the ELY passengers clear TSA screening at CNY so the plane can arrive on the secured side of DEN. Air Midwest used to have to fly ELY-CDC-LAS for the same reasons.


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5031 times:

What I just don't get is...why does the aircraft have to fly when there is nobody booked? If nobody is booked on the flight, that money spent on subsidy should partially go back to the program.

The other thing that pisses me off is the EAS contracts always ask for a minimum number of flights. So a place that may only have 8 people fly out everyday, still requires 3 flights a day on 19 seaters. Such a waste. I'm sorry, but if only 8 people fly out a day...then there should only be one flight a day. People that live there can either enjoy their one flight, or drive.


User currently offlineSierraAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4854 times:

Having family that lived in Havre, I understand the desire for air service, however Great Falls is only 1.5 hours away. Service is much more needed in cities like Glasgow or Sidney, 3.5 - 4.5 hours from a city with major airline service. I've never understood the need for 19-seat aircraft on these routes.

My family has now moved to Port Angeles, WA which also has air service through Kenmore Air. They serve the city, which has only about 2500 more people than Havre, with 9-seat Cessnas without government subsidy.

I guess I believe the entire system needs an overhaul. I'm definitely in support of the EAS program, but more cost effective aircraft are needed to serve these cities.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17510 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4720 times:



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 4):
Probably because there is no TSA at ELY. So the ELY passengers clear TSA screening at CNY so the plane can arrive on the secured side of DEN. Air Midwest used to have to fly ELY-CDC-LAS for the same reasons.

Didn't YV operate some BE1s to ABQ or DFW from places with no TSA? I thought they just bussed the passengers to a nonsterile area for rescreening.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10428 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4651 times:



Quoting MarkATL (Reply 3):
So I really don't see the relevance of pointing out that Harry Reid is a Democrat.

Could it be that it's because he's Majority Leader in the Senate and wields more power than his GOP counterpart?  Wink



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4634 times:

EAS is one of those things that will be nearly impossible to get rid of. It is not a political party issue. If you are a government official that presides over an area that needs EAS, you are going to lobby to keep it. There are too many out there still lobbying to keep it and when a lot of them have a vote in the pot, that's what happens.

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

I think EAS needs to be used to subsidize the startup of routes that can operate at breakeven or profit within 2-3 years. Not for the support of service to locations within 2hrs of a major airport that will never breakeven on its own.

I'd also put it that it needs to be in the form of 1/2 subsidy, 1/2 loan so that the carrier has something riding on its continued success, with the "loan" progressively forgiven after subsidy period ends. This way a Airline that takes the subsidy then drops the route when it ends is on the hook for the whole "loan" side, but one that keeps it up for 4-5 more years gets it all forgiven in small chunks each year.


User currently offlineCbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4480 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Why is ELY connected to DEN via CNY??? Of course no one is going to use that flight. Why not a nonstop to LAS or SLC? If you're going to waste that much money on service wouldn't it be better to at least send passengers where they want to go?

Because EAS isn't a bus service. ZK has a huge operation out of DEN, so that is why they operate it to DEN! Also, LAS has been the aim for ZK, however there is trouble getting gate space and counter space in LAS. There is a lot more to setting up a new station then most think. You have to hire employees, contract out your ground handling operations, get counter space from the airport, as well as a whole slew of other details that have to be completed. There is also a rumor that the LAS airport manager wanted a ridiculous amount of money for ZK to park an aircraft there overnight, which is another reason we didn't start it!

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 4):
Probably because there is no TSA at ELY. So the ELY passengers clear TSA screening at CNY so the plane can arrive on the secured side of DEN. Air Midwest used to have to fly ELY-CDC-LAS for the same reasons.

Nope, there is TSA in ELY!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):

Didn't YV operate some BE1s to ABQ or DFW from places with no TSA? I thought they just bussed the passengers to a nonsterile area for rescreening.

Possible, I know ZK still does out of Clovis, NM! There is no TSA there, so our operations are conducted outside of the sterile area in ABQ!




Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 5):
What I just don't get is...why does the aircraft have to fly when there is nobody booked? If nobody is booked on the flight, that money spent on subsidy should partially go back to the program.

Because thats the small incentive for the airline to continue operations into the EAS community. Keep in mind, all the EAS operators are business as well, and they need to be able to support flying to these communities. I know everyone thinks its a big waste of money, which it might be indeed, but keep in mind, if no one bids the routes, the city wont get any service as all. For those who live in any major city that gets plenty of air service, its not big deal and a huge waste of resources. However, for those who live in these tiny communities, its a life savor!

Quoting SierraAir (Reply 6):
I guess I believe the entire system needs an overhaul. I'm definitely in support of the EAS program, but more cost effective aircraft are needed to serve these cities.

Which aircraft would you suggest to fly these routes? The 1900 is probably the best aircraft for these routes. If you did them in a Saab or something, the contract would be astronomical! Also, you can't use a Pilatus or something similar on a part 121 cert!


Granted there is a lot of wasted tax dollars in the EAS system, but there never seems to be any wining! A town will often whine and complain about not having air service, yet when an airline takes a chance and offers service to these small cities, no one uses them.

Anyway...rant over!  banghead 



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4423 times:



Quoting Cbphoto (Reply 11):
Because thats the small incentive for the airline to continue operations into the EAS community. Keep in mind, all the EAS operators are business as well, and they need to be able to support flying to these communities. I know everyone thinks its a big waste of money, which it might be indeed, but keep in mind, if no one bids the routes, the city wont get any service as all. For those who live in any major city that gets plenty of air service, its not big deal and a huge waste of resources. However, for those who live in these tiny communities, its a life savor!

I get it. I'm just saying, if a flight is empty...don't fly it. Give the airline the money they need for having crew and all that ready...but don't force them to sink more cost into it by flying the route on that particular day. It's one thing to give them subsidy on an empty flight, it's another to ask them to fly it even empty. That's just burning cash for no reason.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4418 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Why is ELY connected to DEN via CNY??? Of course no one is going to use that flight. Why not a nonstop to LAS or SLC? If you're going to waste that much money on service wouldn't it be better to at least send passengers where they want to go?

Precisely. EAS can do a lot of good, if it is managed professionally. If it is managed like an amateur laughingstock, it would end up a lot like this.

Of course no one wants to fly via CNY (whatever that is). There are plenty of great EAS routes including Columbia, MO or Bemidji, MN that should take precedence over that kind of 1 pax / flight trash.

Quoting Cbphoto (Reply 11):
The 1900 is probably the best aircraft for these routes

The 1900 is too much aircraft for some routes. Maybe a smaller 8 seater category would be appropriate in some cases.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

At least Ely is isolated. Cape Girardeau, childhood home of Rush Limbaugh, is a mere 2 hour drive from St. Louis. I-55 passes right by the town, so it's not like they are isolated. There's no way you save more than 1 hour flying from there to St. Louis and connecting than just driving to St. Louis and flying out.

EAS could be changed on demand limousine service, charging pax nothing if they have an onward connection out of/into STL, and spend less money on this service.

Same thing with Havre, a 2.5 hour drive to Great Falls, which has 11 daily flights to hubs and cities, as well as a few non-daily flights.

Not to mention the other money losing subsidized transportation to Havre: Amtrak. Been there, dead of winter. Cold as heck! But the train made it through...

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 3):
So I really don't see the relevance of pointing out that Harry Reid is a Democrat.

You don't?

Who's in power now? Who's the majority leader?

If Reid wasn't from Nevada, this excess pork product may not have passed by his desk so easily if it only benefitted R people. But he's in a tough reelection battle as it is, and he needs all the largess he can get, and because he's in control, he gets it without question.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Boondoggles like EAS are the natural result of a political system that gives severely disproportionate power to rural areas.

Until the structure of the Senate is changed, we'll continue wasting billions on things like agricultural subsidies. (In fairness, EAS is just a tiny drop in a massive rural-subsidy bucket.) Unfortunately, since it takes two-thirds of the Senate to amend the constitution, and substantially more than one-third of the Senate is from rural states with tiny populations, wasting billions on dubious rural programs will continue for the foreseeable future.

This is not really a partisan issue; although more rural legislators are Republicans, rural Democrats will happily take this pork as well when they have the opportunity. It's an issue of urban America subsidizing rural America, in my view wastefully.

[Edited 2009-08-01 15:06:14]

User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10428 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4336 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 12):
I get it. I'm just saying, if a flight is empty...don't fly it. Give the airline the money they need for having crew and all that ready...but don't force them to sink more cost into it by flying the route on that particular day. It's one thing to give them subsidy on an empty flight, it's another to ask them to fly it even empty. That's just burning cash for no reason.

Well, wouldn't it be a worse waste of cash if you were to just give the money to the airline and they DIDN'T operate the flight? The whole reason that the subsidy is paid is to cover the airline's expenses on more than likely, non-profitable routes.

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 15):
This is not really a partisan issue; although more rural legislators are Republicans, rural Democrats will happily take this pork as well when they have the opportunity. It's an issue of urban America subsidizing rural America, in my view wastefully.

You do realize, of course, that the food you eat, doesn't just originate in the grocery store, don't you? This whole urban vs rural argument is getting rather old. I think it stems from an inherent sense of snobbery on the part of the urban dwellers, which is not helped by the way the media usually portrays those in small towns or rural areas.

BTW, folks in rural areas and small towns pay taxes, too.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Quoting Mayor (Reply 16):
You do realize, of course, that the food you eat, doesn't just originate in the grocery store, don't you? This whole urban vs rural argument is getting rather old. I think it stems from an inherent sense of snobbery on the part of the urban dwellers, which is not helped by the way the media usually portrays those in small towns or rural areas.

BTW, folks in rural areas and small towns pay taxes, too.

I'm perfectly happy to see rural residents and farmers get back roughly what they pay. And I'm not judging rural residents in any way.

I'm just sick of the *massive* subsidies they get, which are not needed for the cost-effective production of food (as demonstrated in plenty of other countries) and which take away resources that could be used to solve urban problems affecting hundreds or even thousands of times as many citizens.

If the Senate, like the House, were arranged roughly according to population, this wouldn't be a problem. The only reason it's a problem is because of the way the Senate is set up, in which (for example) the 1 million or so residents of Alaska and Wyoming have twice as much representation as the 30 million or so residents of California.

[Edited 2009-08-01 16:14:28]

User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10428 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4294 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 17):
The only reason it's a problem is because of the way the Senate is set up, in which (for example) the 1 million or so residents of Alaska and Wyoming have twice as much representation as the 30 million or so residents of California.

Which is balanced out by the representation in the House.

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 17):
which take away resources that could be used to solve urban problems affecting hundreds or even thousands of times as many citizens.

Maybe the rural folks are tired of paying for the problems of the urban folks, which caused most of their own problems.  Yeah sure


Last I checked, the tax rates are the same for rural or urban taxpayers. Maybe you're right. Urban taxpayers should pay more in taxes because their problems are larger.  Wink



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4243 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 16):
Well, wouldn't it be a worse waste of cash if you were to just give the money to the airline and they DIDN'T operate the flight? The whole reason that the subsidy is paid is to cover the airline's expenses on more than likely, non-profitable routes.

Which is fine. My original point is, if the flight is empty, it shouldn't go and the airline shouldn't get paid out. I was responding to someone who implied that no airline would ever bid for EAS if that was the case because they could potentially make less money if the system was like that.

I'm pointing out that it's such a lose lose either way. Sure, you don't want to pay the airline for having a flight canceled. But the alternative is you pay them to fly around wasting fuel, wear and tear on the airplane, and anything else you can think of.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4231 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 5):
People that live there can either enjoy their one flight, or drive.

I agree entirely with what you're saying.......but that same principle should equally be used for all those locations where people demand frequency?


User currently offlineSierraAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4216 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 17):
If the Senate, like the House, were arranged roughly according to population, this wouldn't be a problem. The only reason it's a problem is because of the way the Senate is set up, in which (for example) the 1 million or so residents of Alaska and Wyoming have twice as much representation as the 30 million or so residents of California.

Check out the history books. That's precisely the reason we have two separate bodies of the legislature.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Same thing with Havre, a 2.5 hour drive to Great Falls,

Only if you're driving 50. Otherwise, it's about 1.25 - 1.5 hours.

Quoting Cbphoto (Reply 11):
Which aircraft would you suggest to fly these routes? The 1900 is probably the best aircraft for these routes. If you did them in a Saab or something, the contract would be astronomical! Also, you can't use a Pilatus or something similar on a part 121 cert!

And maybe that's the problem. 19 seats is far too large, especially in cities that routinely get 2 passengers a day. There is the ability to operate Part 121 and Part 135, just look at Cape Air.

I can't speak for every EAS city, but a 9-seat Cessna 208 would be best suited for most Montana cities.


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 4146 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 20):
I agree entirely with what you're saying.......but that same principle should equally be used for all those locations where people demand frequency?

Are you talking about EAS cities or any market?


User currently offlineCbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4094 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 19):
Which is fine. My original point is, if the flight is empty, it shouldn't go and the airline shouldn't get paid out. I was responding to someone who implied that no airline would ever bid for EAS if that was the case because they could potentially make less money if the system was like that.

I'm pointing out that it's such a lose lose either way. Sure, you don't want to pay the airline for having a flight canceled. But the alternative is you pay them to fly around wasting fuel, wear and tear on the airplane, and anything else you can think of.

And I am going to fight this statement, because this is job security for me. How can you expect a company to fly a government subsidized route and only get paid when there are passengers flying? The company that bids on these routes, expects to get some financial help from the government to fly to these cities that cannot support any other carriers. How can a company survive with a fleet of aircraft, employees and everything else if they can only rely on income IF passengers are booked on the flight? The airline would loose money hand over fist, because the aircraft are sitting on the ground, the airline still has to pay the employees, and they get no revenue from the government. In a very short time, the airline would give up on EAS and EAS would be dead within a few months. I don't mean to pick on you, but your logic and ideas just don't add up from the business point of view!

Quoting SierraAir (Reply 21):
There is the ability to operate Part 121 and Part 135, just look at Cape Air.

I can't speak for every EAS city, but a 9-seat Cessna 208 would be best suited for most Montana cities.

While this is true, and Cape air is a shining example of this, do you have any idea how many people are truly terrified of getting onto a Beech 1900? It is by far the smallest plane that they have ever flown on, now can you imagine there look when getting on a Cessna 402 or a 208? Now, everyone is probably going to tell me, who cares its not our problem, but it is! The whole purpose of EAS is to try and stimulate the population to fly out of the small town, instead of everyone driving out to the bigger cities. Once the airline is in there and the general population starts flying more on the carrier, the eventual goal is to have the airline be able to operate into that small cities without any government help. However, if passengers are so scared on flying something so small, they will continue to drive to those bigger cities to fly on something big and purpose of EAS would have failed again. Before anyone asks "Has EAS ever worked perfectly ?" I will tell you that is has, and a lot of the routes in Kansas that ZK flies used to be EAS, but are no longer EAS service and the loads are sometimes incredible out of Kansas.

In short, is EAS perfect, no! Is it a huge waste of tax dollars, well to us city dwellers yes, but to the people and business that rely on EAS out in there small towns, no! I agree that the schedules and destinations might not be everyone's cup of tea, but hey beggars can't be choosers.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4083 times:



Quoting Cbphoto (Reply 23):
And I am going to fight this statement, because this is job security for me. How can you expect a company to fly a government subsidized route and only get paid when there are passengers flying? The company that bids on these routes, expects to get some financial help from the government to fly to these cities that cannot support any other carriers. How can a company survive with a fleet of aircraft, employees and everything else if they can only rely on income IF passengers are booked on the flight? The airline would loose money hand over fist, because the aircraft are sitting on the ground, the airline still has to pay the employees, and they get no revenue from the government. In a very short time, the airline would give up on EAS and EAS would be dead within a few months. I don't mean to pick on you, but your logic and ideas just don't add up from the business point of view!

I'm not trying to fire you up. Nor am I even trying to present a business case. I was pointing out from the start that paying to fly an empty plane is such a waste. It is crappy either way you slice it. Fly an empty plane, send tax dollars and operating costs down the drain. Don't fly an empty plane, either send tax dollars down the drain to the airline that is waiting to provide their service, or the airline loses out...which no airline would ever bid because that is a horrible way to run a business.

My only suggestion was...if the money is already going to be paid out...why fly an empty plane just because??? You already set aside the EAS money, now you're asking the airline to just go waste a bunch of resources for a plane nobody is going to be on. That's all I'm saying man.

If we're going to have to pay them no matter what...I'd rather they be allowed to not fly that round trip. They can still pay out their labor costs as if it happened, but we don't have to go spending money on and wasting fuel or wear and tear on the airplane. Was I making that not clear at all? I apologize if I didn't explain it enough.


25 SierraAir : I would imagine a similar argument ensued when Horizon Air pulled out of Port Angeles, but here we are - over 5 years later - and the flights are sti
26 Flighty : People like that are just being ridiculous. The B1900 is a large, safe, high performance and comfortable aircraft. Compared to the vehicles most peop
27 Cbphoto : I couldn't agree more, but every day I encounter people who are terrified on getting on a small prop plane, especially after the Colgan incident! Unf
28 Luv2cattlecall : Thanks to the OP for opening my eyes to the whole EAS issue... I fly into/out of Marion, IL several times a month, and on over half of my 25+ recent f
29 Hatbutton : That's good to know. Thanks!
30 Mayor : This all goes back to the rural vs urban arguments. For some reason, those in the cities think they deserve everything, while those of us in rural ar
31 N202PA : Not to get into too much of a political discussion on this, but urban dwellers get a disproportionate amount of $$ spent on roads, mass transit and g
32 MaverickM11 : I realize that, but ZK's network is fragmented enough already that either a standalone operatiion in LAS or a roundabout DEN-CNY-LAS-ELY-LAS-CNY-DEN
33 SeaBosDca : It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Urban dwellers get back less than they pay in taxes. Rural residents get back more than they pay
34 SeaBosDca : Oops, forgot to quote a couple of posts in my last post... It was an ugly and kludgy compromise then and it's one now. There is no bias in favor of la
35 Post contains links and images FATFlyer : Mike Boyd brought up one example in his blog this week. Check out the wild mustang appropriation in the 3rd paragraph. "Congress is intending to appr
36 Mayor : Sources??? How about all the federal urban programs, such as housing, etc. Surely that outweighs any programs in the rural areas. And you can't count
37 Mayor : How do you figure that the House is "un-biased"? If anything, it is biased towards urban areas just because because representation is based on the po
38 Panova98 : The EAS program surely is something we can debate for some time. Some would describe the program as a "boondoggle;" others, simply the free market at
39 Luv2cattlecall : Please reread my post. If Marion didn't have EAS service, I WOULD have to drive 3 hours each way - and I would have no problems with that! Since the
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Turboprop Lancair For 787 Program: Is This A Joke? posted Thu Feb 28 2008 10:31:20 by KELPkid
Is This Airline For Real, Or Is It A Joke? posted Fri Jan 25 2008 19:09:52 by Airways1