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Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?  
User currently offlineJetBlue777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 1463 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27285 times:

Hi, I just wondered why is ATL the busiest airport in the world? First of all, Atlanta is not as heavily populated like cities such as New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo. I know those three cities has more than one major airports. Where do most people that use ATL come from? Atlanta is not that heavily populated so it always puzzles me why its the busiest airport in the world.


It's a cultural thing.
155 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27305 times:



Quoting JetBlue777 (Thread starter):
Hi, I just wondered why is ATL the busiest airport in the world? First of all, Atlanta is not as heavily populated like cities such as New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo. I know those three cities has more than one major airports. Where do most people that use ATL come from? Atlanta is not that heavily populated so it always puzzles me why its the busiest airport in the world.

ATL is Delta's main hub that they built. Remember that most of ATL's passengers are not O&D passengers, but are connecting passengers. JFK and LAX have a significantly larger O&D base, but have less connecting passengers than ATL.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 925 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27279 times:

Atlanta also has only one airport - other large cities divide traffic amongst multiple airports.


DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, F28, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, IL-62, L-1011, MD-82/83, YS-11, DHC-8, PA-28-161, ERJ 135/145, E-1
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27273 times:

Atlanta is the largest air hub on earth for two reasons:

First, it is in the world's largest air market - by far - the United States. The U.S. domestic market dwarfs any other on earth, and is larger than most of the world's other major air markets combined.

Second, and of course obvious, it is the largest and most important hub - by far - for Delta, the world's largest airline. Delta has, since deregulation, put a huge and increasing emphasis on Atlanta, and has tended to preserve the Atlanta network time after time, even at the expense of other hubs.

Third, and finally, while Atlanta is certainly not the largest population center in the United States, it is the largest population center in the U.S. with only one major airport. Every single other larger U.S. population center has at least two major regional airports (and, in the case of New York, LA and arguably Chicago, more than two), except Philadelphia - which only has PHL, but also is within a relatively very close distance of two other major hubs - BWI and EWR.


User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2328 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27252 times:

There are 2 big reasons...

1. The Main Hubs for;
Delta
AirTran

Two major carriers that operate a BUNCH of connecting traffic through Atlanta.

2. ATL's location between the NE Corridor and the growing sun-belt communities also helps immensely. It is also the sole airport serving a large metro area. New York may have more people, but divide that between EWR, JFK, LGA, ISP, HPN, SWF and maybe even ABE, IPT, and HVN and you got a LOT of airport options. (let alone add in the corporate at TEB, MMU, Farmingdale etc.). ATL provides easy connections to the West Coast, South Central, and South East US to the northeast. Its also (some would argue against) and easy airport to connect through. I worked for Delta for 2 years and never had an issue connecting there. (My current airport IAH is a mess compared to ATL).

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineNcflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 492 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27178 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Second, and of course obvious, it is the largest and most important hub - by far - for Delta, the world's largest airline. Delta has, since deregulation, put a huge and increasing emphasis on Atlanta, and has tended to preserve the Atlanta network time after time, even at the expense of other hubs.

Just to point out ATL was the world's largest airport before DL was the world's largest airline. . . .

DTW is I believe a larger metro city with only one airport (I can't count Detroit City). At least it's a larger metro area now, might not be for much longer.

One day sooner than we think, China air traffic will outstrip the US. Will be interesting to see if ATL holds on to its lead.


User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27120 times:

First off, its one of the biggest cities with only one airport. It's the 8th biggest metro. But bigger cities with presumably more traffic have it divided amongst other airports (New York has 3, LA 4-5, Chicago 2, Dallas 2, Houston 2). And, I think the Delta hub plays a huge role. A lot of the people that come through that hub are connecting. If United had a 1000 flight hub in O'hare, O'hare would obviously have more traffic in flights and passengers. So a lot of the high airplane movements and passengers are due to the massive Delta hub. And, the location helps. Being essentially a gateway to the southeast, and being near the major population centers in the northeast helps justify Delta's big hub.

Looking at CVG, their traffic has fallen quite a bit. And even if fares go down and o@d goes up, the airport's numbers will still be smaller than it was with the Delta hub, because the airport used to handle more connecting traffic. Most cities can't maintain 300+ flights on their own. They need the connecting traffic to help.

Long story short, I think it is due to fact that Atlanta only has 1 airport for its city, that they have a huge hub in Delta (and Airtran's hub) that push numbers up, and to a smaller extent, location. If New York had one airport, it would have over 100 million passengers a year (the port authority says it handled 107 million in 2008), more than Atlanta's 80 million passengers. But either way, Atlanta is going to be up there; its still one of America's biggest cities.

The big question is whether O'hare will ever pass Atlanta up again.



Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27096 times:



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 5):
DTW is I believe a larger metro city with only one airport (I can't count Detroit City). At least it's a larger metro area now, might not be for much longer.

Nope. Either as a Metropolitian Statistical Area (MSA) or Combined Statistical Area (CSA), Atlanta is larger than Detroit - by 900,000 or 200,000 - respectively.


User currently offlineFlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 925 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27050 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Nope. Either as a Metropolitian Statistical Area (MSA) or Combined Statistical Area (CSA), Atlanta is larger than Detroit - by 900,000 or 200,000 - respectively.

If you look at Census Bureau Urban Areas, Detroit is larger.

[Edited 2009-08-04 19:10:10]


DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, F28, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, IL-62, L-1011, MD-82/83, YS-11, DHC-8, PA-28-161, ERJ 135/145, E-1
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27033 times:

ATL Its metropolitan statistical area has a population of 5,376,285
DTW The Census Bureau's 2008 estimate placed the population at 4,425,110,

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Nope. Either as a Metropolitian Statistical Area (MSA) or Combined Statistical Area (CSA), Atlanta is larger than Detroit - by 900,000 or 200,000 - respectively.

Correct.

ATL Its metropolitan statistical area has a population of 5,376,285
DTW The Census Bureau's 2008 estimate placed the population at 4,425,110


User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 759 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 26996 times:



Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 6):
The big question is whether O'hare will ever pass Atlanta up again.

Even after the expasion is complete, the only way I see that happening is if either UA or AA cave and cutback significantly. With the dual hub, neither one has an operation nearly as big as DL has in ATL. If there was only one of them (or if they had a split closer to that of DL and FL), capacity on alot of routes could be "optimized" (cut didn't seem like the best word) and flights could be shifted towards expanding into more markets than they don't currently have room for.
There's also the terminal issue. i think ORD would probably benefit from an ATL style layout with one large terminal instead of the 4 smaller ones they have now, but that's about as likely as WN abandoning MDW for ORD


User currently offlineCYXUK From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 26978 times:

I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3638 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 26922 times:



Quoting CYXUK (Reply 11):
I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

I'd be surprised if it were that low of a number.


User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26884 times:

[

Quoting CYXUK (Reply 11):
I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

From the Atlanta Airport Website:
Connecting and O&D
Connecting — 64.2%
Originating & Destination — 35.8%

That's a lot of connecting traffic.



Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26868 times:



Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 12):
I'd be surprised if it were that low of a number.

So would I - my guess would be 66-70%

The old saying in the Southeast US is that when you die, you will have to change planes in Atlanta whether you are going to heaven or hell.

A lot of people forget the ATL primary service area is not just the city - but everything north of MIA, south of IAD and east of MEM.

US Airways CLT hub is the only large airline operation in the region which does not run traffic through ATL.

Yes, I know Southwest does not run through ATL, but their operation in the Southeast is limited compared to other parts of the nation they serve.


User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26787 times:

Has anyone ever done a comparison of curbside linear footage compared to the number of gates (or passengers handled)? I would expect LGA and LAX to have some of the higher ratios; ATL, CLT among the smallest.

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26787 times:



Quoting ATCT (Reply 4):
ATL's location between the NE Corridor and the growing sun-belt communities also helps immensely.

Between NYC (JFK, LGA & EWR), PHL, BOS amongst others and Florida (MIA, FLL, MCO & TPA) makes ATL the ideal connection point. These have been historical large passenger volumes for DL for years.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 14):
The old saying in the Southeast US is that when you die, you will have to change planes in Atlanta whether you are going to heaven or hell.

Even back in the days when Eastern Airlines competed with DL at ATL that was the motto.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26669 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Atlanta is the largest air hub on earth for two reasons:

4. ATL has five parallel runways.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26660 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 17):
4. ATL has five parallel runways.

That helps, but the reason I did not include that was because other airports that have less traffic have more airports. DFW has seven runways - all non-intersecting - and yet is a smaller airport (by traffic) than Atlanta.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3651 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26636 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 16):
Between NYC (JFK, LGA & EWR), PHL, BOS amongst others and Florida (MIA, FLL, MCO & TPA) makes ATL the ideal connection point.

I really cannot imagine that there is a popular destination you can only get to from JFK, LGA or EWR through ATL. I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

Are there really popular routes like this that make ATL the "ideal" connection point for New York area airports?



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3596 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 26552 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

You are joking, aren't you? If not, you need a wider circle of friends.

Do you know anyone in NY that has connected through anywhere?


User currently offlineNYC2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 26459 times:

Lets figure this out...what popular destinations (i.e. has mainline service - so RJs don't count) are exclusively severed from ATL non-stop that are not served from JFK/EWR/LGA non-stop?


Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
User currently offlineDia77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 705 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 26404 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 20):
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

You are joking, aren't you? If not, you need a wider circle of friends.

Do you know anyone in NY that has connected through anywhere?

I live in Manhattan and fly over 100,000 miles a year. I never connect through ATL. There are flights from LGA, JFK and EWR to just about every location that is served through ATL.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8912 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 26339 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
except Philadelphia - which only has PHL, but also is within a relatively very close distance of two other major hubs - BWI and EWR.

PHL also has one (relatively important) factor hampering its air travel too - the presence of Amtrak. A good bit of Philadelphia business travel is either to Washington DC or New York City - and no one in their right mind would fly from Philadelphia to either one of these cities for O&D. Amtrak is 90 minutes to Penn Station, 2 hours to Union Station - CBD to CBD in all cases as well. The Southeast is just not as dense as the Northeast - the nearest large city is Charlotte, about 3 hours away if you cruise at 80 mph and there's no traffic on I-85.

Quoting Dia77 (Reply 22):
I live in Manhattan and fly over 100,000 miles a year. I never connect through ATL. There are flights from LGA, JFK and EWR to just about every location that is served through ATL.

LGA/JFK/EWR will get you to a lot of the larger destinations domestically - which is what a lot of people fly to. But if you need to get to a small town, even on the Eastern Seaboard, you need to connect somewhere. Cities even such as Tallahassee, Pensacola, etc. require connections. Even some larger US cities - Albuquerque, Reno, Tuscon in the lower 48 - require a change of planes (and in the case of ABQ and TUS, ATL offers that possibility).

But if you're going to any real large city, then you're fine with a nonstop out of a NYC airport. But not everyone can do that - I'm lucky in that in the 100k miles I fly a year, the 90% of those miles can be done on a nonstop flight out of MSP - cities such as MCO, LAS, LAX, etc. But there are some trips I make (Ontario, CA; Greensboro, NC, etc) where I can connect or take a nonstop and drive 50-75 miles. Given that I'm 23 and don't like paying underage renters fees, I'll take the connection.


User currently offlineYeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 888 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26239 times:



Quoting NYC2theworld (Reply 21):
what popular destinations (i.e. has mainline service - so RJs don't count) are exclusively served from ATL non-stop that are not served from JFK/EWR/LGA non-stop?

Let’s see... from the top of my head** the following are served nonstop from Atlanta with at least one mainline jet and not from EWR/JFK/LGA:

Albuquerque NM
Atlantic City NJ
Bloomington IL
Branson MO
Colorado Springs CO
El Paso TX
Flint MI
Jackson MS
Jackson WY
Lagos Nigeria
New York NY (ha!)
Managua Nicaragua
St. Lucia West Indies
Stuttgart Germany
Tuscon AZ

Quite a mixed bag.

But to be fair, I’m pretty sure there’d be a larger list of routes out of the three NYC airport not served by ATL, no?


**I’ve always wanted to say that-I'm kidding of course. Actually, I did a quick comparison of routes in my handy OAG pocket flight guide - admittedly not a very complete database but I fully expect to be corrected by a-netters  duck 

yeo



Yokoso! to my world
25 RwSEA : I think we're missing another point here as to why ATL is such a busy airport. Until very recently, DL was the third-largest carrier in the country, h
26 AADC10 : ATL has beaten ORD the last decade or so because it has a better runway layout and more gates, along with slightly better weather. If ORD built more g
27 DeltaL1011man : Post merger only 2 hubs in the DL/NW network have grown. SLC by like 3% and ATL by IIRC 11%. Doesn't look like it to me.
28 SATexan : From the top of my head I remember AA serving LGA-FNT and JFK-St Lucia and the CO flight from EWR to Jackson MS. Not sure if those flights still exis
29 Airbazar : I'm in BOS and I can say pretty much the same. But I suspect that's because NYC and BOS passengers have plenty of choices including non-stops. It's p
30 Atlwest1 : Welll for one it is a true power hub that is simply not touched. To see the hub in full force is truely impressive for both Airtran and Delta. Additio
31 DLPMMM : But you still keep coming! Others to add to the list (might be served by RJs from NYC, but not mainline). SAV MYR CHS RIC ORF Essentially, there is n
32 Lexy : Construction is ongoing with the new international terminal. The sixth runway? I don't see that happening anytime soon. That new 5th bad boy isn't us
33 STT757 : CO flies to all those listed, MYR gets mainline from CO at EWR and NK at LGA.
34 DLPMMM : Someone had put on the no RJ stipulation. Ahhh here it is: CO flies with RJs to all of them (MYR is by Colgan on a Dash-8). I had missed the Spirit A
35 RFields5421 : One reason that DFW will never touch ATL stats is that DFW has passenger competition from DAL, IAH and HOU. Though IAH and HOU are 224 and 247 miles
36 Ckfred : Actually, ORD could handle more flights than ATL, if the airlines chose to put enough traffic in. Remember that several years ago, the FAA asked AA a
37 RFields5421 : One of the things which has helped ATL a lot is the RJ/TP hub concept. Back when I was young - almost everyone from my home town area flew to DAL to m
38 Atlwest1 : Oh yeah most definitely I see the progress on a daily basis when im coming into work. It looks like a giant spider with many legs when you are coming
39 DuckRedbeard : Are you considering those who drive from BHM or CHA or SAV to ATL? Technically they are connecting through, just not flying to their real final desti
40 InnocuousFox : That's a ridiculous and irrelevant way of looking at things. It's like measuring the city of Chicago but specifically excluding the 60 or so suburbs
41 KC135TopBoom : LOL, isn't that the truth? Almost everytime I fly now to/from DFW-BOS, I go through ATL, as I almost always fly DL. I don't like flying AA, even with
42 Mir : The NYC area has much more traffic than ATL, but when it gets split up among 3+ airports, the individual numbers come out to be much less. LAX is pro
43 Post contains links AAflyguy : 36% O & D equates to about 32,400,000, as last year ATL handled just over 90,000,000 passengers. That is a HUGE raw number! That 2/3 of the traffic is
44 Conti764 : For the moment :wink: I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to
45 Mayor : Which, even if they broke ground for the rail system, today, would take years to finish. Especially since those high speed trains will have to use th
46 DLPMMM : That's the difference between Europeans and us. We know our politicians are lying, you guys only suspect it. Seriously, there are 2 major reasons why
47 TheGMan : It seems you are only talking about the Delta network, but I know there are several LGA-GSO flights a day, and I am sure there is an ONT as well, pro
48 Joeman : Because U.S. commercial air travel is primarly built on a "hub" model.
49 0NEWAIR0 : The 5th runway will be heavily utilized when the new South Terminal is built.
50 Lexy : There are a number of regional plans for high speed rail, the same you have in Europe, here in the states. Atlanta-Chattanooga-Nashville is one of th
51 Burnsie28 : You forgot Detroit Willow Run
52 AAflyguy : aaaaaaah, Willow Run! Now, the difference with that airport is Detroit built the replacement closer to the city. All of those other cities with newer
53 AndrewUber : AirTran's hub is in ATL as well, and at 240+ flights daily, they are a considerable presence at Hartsfield.
54 Brilondon : Unfortunately the comparison with Europe is not a good one as Europe has a higher overall density of population making any where outside the NE corri
55 Jetmatt777 : It definitely helps having two hubs: one fortress hub (Delta); large domestic (AirTran). Also, UPS and Fedex have decent cargo operations out of ATL.
56 Commavia : DFW was never in the running for #1 - that traded back and forth throughout the 1990s between ORD and ATL, but never DFW, which was always smaller th
57 727LOVER : I have a few postcards of ATL from the '60s and '70s. A bunch of them say ATL is the busiest from 11am-2pm. Can someone explain?
58 Farzan : Last part of your statement is amazing if true. Would you mind substantiate with some numbers? 4.5% of the world population travels more domestically
59 Commavia : I was definitely exaggerating. I should have said that it is larger than "many" other major air markets combined, not "most." But yes, the U.S. domes
60 RFields5421 : The infrastructure simply is not present. For most of the nation, it will have to be built from scratch. The US is served by a very active, very high
61 Farzan : OK I was also exaggerating, when saying the the US could "easily" be covered by trains But still like stated by RFields, cross US passenger rail trav
62 Lexy : It already is here. The northeast corridor has rail, and like I said above, other city pairs are looking into the rail options. Cost is a big issue h
63 Thegeek : While that is true, it is only marginally technically superior to the rail between BNE & ROK!
64 Lexy : Well, that is because most of the pax trains in this country share the track with cargo/freight trains. It's no secret that the rail infrastructure i
65 Mayor : Surprisingly enough, the pax rail system along the Wasatch Front in Utah, Frontrunner, is using the Union Pacific right of way from Salt Lake City to
66 FlyDeltaJets87 : A look at the Population Map would help too. That state South of Georgia - Florida - is the fourth most populated state in the US, and the easiest pl
67 Ckfred : The FAA operations cap was lifted in November of last year with the opening of the 3rd east-west runway. ORD could handle nearly 1 million operations
68 DeltAirlines : The context was around MSP and taking a nonstop to an alternate (larger) city and then driving. I'm saying for most of my own travels (I live in MSP)
69 Luckyone : Tokyo Haneda airport was the fourth busiest airport in the world in 2008, behind Atlanta, O'Hare, and Heathrow. Well that's due to two factors 1) the
70 DeltaL1011man : ATL made it past ORD in 2005ish range. This is when Delta made a big push out of Atlanta. With 4 runways Delta had close 1300 flights a day during th
71 Farzan : Stupid question, but here it goes. Here at a-net everybody are always claiming that the the future of air travel is point to point, with suitable size
72 Commavia : Since that's the statement that Farzan originally made, that I was responding to. Who is saying that? I don't believe that for one second, and I don'
73 Airbazar : I'll give you #2, but not #1. Nonesense. Most people think that way because when they visit Europe they never go beyond the big cities like Paris, Lo
74 DLPMMM : Downtown LA or Miami at night is not the place for most people. You misunderstand the Point-to-Point concept, as ennumerated by Boeing. It is not that
75 Conti764 : I've red it in a local newspaper and the speed was indicated next to each line. It was between 150 and 200 kph on average, which is slow, considering
76 Mayor : Isn't that what Luckyone is saying? The only way that HSR would work in the U.S. is between major population centers that were reasonably close to ea
77 AAflyguy : ATL's position as the 4th largest rental car market has nothing to do with having a single airport, it is the volume of O&D in the overall market need
78 Cubsrule : About a third of Japan's population is in the five most populous prefectures (roughly analogous to US Counties). Less than 10% of the US population l
79 InnocuousFox : It is logistically impossible to replace the hub system completely. The combinatorial explosion of the number of planes and flights required would be
80 GSPSPOT : Why's the sky blue? Apparently, that's the way God wants it.... Happily or unhappily.
81 Farzan : I agree, that's why it was a stupid question. Here is one No, I do not really misunderstand Boeings point to point concept. I believe the concept is
82 DLPMMM : We could see a ATL-GOT or JFK-GOT flight sometime in the future. Or if we change MOB (MOB is really very small) to PIT (no one's hub similar and in s
83 474218 : Having lived in the Atlanta area for many years I know why it is the 4th largest rental car market. It's because most of the people don't know how to
84 BooDog : when it comes to trains, i'm listening to the person who knows what "cantenary" is. BTW, we need to be careful. we're straying from the topic of the
85 Farzan : Sounds quite reasonable. except that SAS tried GOT-JFK back when GOT was opened, and it did not last very long. The routing was actually CPH-GOT-JFK
86 Thegeek : That was so long ago that I don't think it really counters the suggestion. Although this route (and ATL-GOT) could easily have been done by a 767, so
87 Airbazar : But you continue to make the same wrong assumption, which is HSR should use existing rail corridors. Even if you fix all those 4 points you still can
88 DLPMMM : Yes, quite right. ATL is the epitome of the point to point concept. The largest airport in the world with only 3 (?)VLA flights per day (DL 744s to N
89 Cubsrule : You can easily get to 200 km/h (which Acela comes pretty close to in places now), and 300 km/h isn't out of the question. The cost-benefit calculus S
90 A340Jamaica : The geography of Europe re Mountains is just as difficult if not more so for rail crossing. Read up on the engineering feat of the 1890's Gotthard Li
91 Cubsrule : There are maybe six. Let's not overstate it.
92 A340Jamaica : Six is a number I would define as many especially when those six routes are covering areas like Intra-California, Intra-Texas, Midwest centered on Ch
93 Cubsrule : Let's look at Chicago, where rail is not competitive today. Here are the twenty largest markets, with number of passengers in Q208: NYC 8950 LAS 4075
94 FlyASAGuy2005 : closer to 60 and O&D is about 30 but that's pretty immense when you put things into pespectiv consiering that ATL handled roughly 90,000,000. Now, 30
95 Post contains links F9fan : Well, lets take a look at PNS. According to the The Pensacola Gulf Coast Airport's web site, you can fly non-stop from PNS to ATL, CLT, DFW, IAH, MEM,
96 Farzan : Simple solution. Increase taxes on gasoline, use the money for high speed trains. The American people would not like the this solution very much, but
97 A340Jamaica : The gasoline and other transportation fuels (kerosene, diesel) price will not remain low if the economy recovers. Aviation will forever be hobbled by
98 Cubsrule : Explain more, please. I don't understand. ...and the US would still have an enormous domestic air travel market, one of the largest in the world.
99 DeltaMD90 : The Army has 5 basic training sites, Ft Jackson is in SC but they also have training in OK, KY, MO, and of course, Ft Benning in GA, one of the large
100 DLPMMM : Actually, the higher taxes would probably lead to higher unemployment. I would also deny that it would be better for the enviroment, in that you woul
101 JetBlue777 : Wow, alot of people connect from NYC in ATL. Personally, my friend connected in ATL. He was travelling from JFK to LAX and he wanted to try the 777 f
102 DiscoverCSG : The only commercial service in CSG in DL, to and from ATL. Signed, DiscoverCSG
103 A340Jamaica : I don't recall anyone arguing otherwise. I certainly was not. I am just saying in light of recent events that illustrated the hazards of overreliance
104 Cubsrule : Right, but because those people are flying now, they are captured in the numbers I posted. HSR gets you from Glenview to St. Louis without flying, bu
105 A340Jamaica : Some of those outlying persons are not flying. It is too much of a hassle (1 hour drive or more + airport overhead time like checking in, security et
106 Mayor : Unless a bridge is built for the high speed rail, across Lake Michigan, I would imagine it would take much longer from Chicago to Detroit than that.
107 Cubsrule : No one is flying from Joliet to Edwardsville or from Gary to Ann Arbor, but how many of those people are there?
108 EA CO AS : Not likely - the vast majority of China's population is poor and cannot afford to travel anywhere by air.
109 Commavia : It wouldn't even come close to covering the cost. Not even close. As others have said, the reason it works in Europe is because the countries are tin
110 Viscount724 : That is changing rapidly. In fact, I see more Chinese tour groups in Europe now than Japanese.
111 DeltaMD90 : For some reason I think that would be a BAD idea. As many have pointed out, the US is just too spread out for European style railways. A lot of citie
112 EA CO AS : Yet it will likely never equal the same percentage of the populace - or total volume - of U.S. citizens that travel by air.
113 FlyDeltaJets87 : The Pilot Training in Pensacola would have a minimal effect on traffic at ATL. Reasons like this will explain why routes like CAE and PNS receive mai
114 Luckyone : Just thinking out loud here. I grew up in an average middle class family. The average middle class family lives in a single dwelling home on approxim
115 Ilyag : Let me try to get this discussion back to its original topic. I'm not an expert in airport development, but ATL success seems also to be attributed to
116 AirFRNT : Not True. Most of the HSR lines are proposed to be 220 mph. Just as fast as anything in Europe. And yes, i agree with your points. The major HSR corr
117 AirFrnt : First as a note, ATL is the evolution of Crandall's old hub system wihch he introduced in DFW. DL has taken it a step further by shoving so much traff
118 Mayor : And everyone's hub system is an evolution of DL's hub and spoke system, which they pioneered.
119 Atlwest1 : As much as people on here hate Delta to watch the Atl hub in movement is simply amazing. One day for all the people come to ATL and watch the movement
120 Cubsrule : Acela hasn't exactly decimated fares on BOS-NYC or NYC-WAS...
121 MogandoCI : The rule of thumb is that when HSR exceeds 4 hrs, the advantages of air trumps rail. California, although dense compare to most states, are highly co
122 AirFrnt : For a really good read, I suggest "Hard Landing" which lays the credit at Crandall's feet.
123 Mayor : Well, DL was operating a hub and spoke system at ATL when I hired on at ORD in '71, long before DFW was in the picture and before Crandall was with A
124 B752OS : True, but those are easily 2 of the largest business market in the country, so people are willing to pay for convenience.
125 Cubsrule : ...and I would argue that the same will happen in other places, like Chicago.
126 Mayor : This, from Wikipedia...... "In 1955 Delta Air Lines pioneered the hub and spoke system at its hub in Atlanta, Georgia [1], in an effort to compete wi
127 Sancho99504 : You could add ANC in there, albeit seasonally.
128 DLPMMM : Every city is dense in the center, the crux is the distances between the major cities. To use your example, it is alot closer between LON and PAR tha
129 InnocuousFox : This is actually a really good point. Banked hubs is a ridiculous waste of assets while everything sits unused at the same time.
130 RB211 : Believe me, you'd have to REALLY see it to believe it. There really aren't too many places on this planet you cannot fly to out of Atlanta non-stop a
131 Cubsrule : It's interesting, I think, to look at some of the multi-airport areas and compare them to Europe. Take Chicago, for instance. ORD is busier than LHR
132 Mayor : From an operational point of view, banked hubs actually work better than you think. There's usually enough time between banks for the gates to get cl
133 Cubsrule : It partially depends on how many banks you have. DL's use of MEM, for instance, is incredibly wasteful (though it works for them, which may be all th
134 Thegeek : You're ignoring all the minor airports: LCY, STN, LTN. I think one other.
135 Mayor : Well, I was thinking more of my experience at SLC. We had a 0900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1400/1500, 1600, 1800, 2000 and 2100 bank. Some of the banks were
136 Cubsrule : ...which, combined, probably have about the same amount of service as LGW, correct?
137 Rwessel : The difference might be smaller than you think. While London proper is quite a bit larger than Chicago (7.5m people vs. 2.8m), the London metro area
138 Cubsrule : It's tougher than that, though, because the population density in Britain is so much higher than in the States. England is smaller than Illinois, and
139 DLPMMM : There are also other airports serving the greater Chicagoland area, such as GYY.
140 InnocuousFox : While I agree with some of what you said, my statement still holds. In terms of resources such as ground personnel, you have to staff for the maximum
141 Thegeek : Sounds about right. That's a pretty significant amount though.
142 RwSEA : Acela still isn't true HSR. It's competitive now with air transport on a door-to-door time basis, but say they cut off an hour on either route, and n
143 Cubsrule : I don't know that air fares would necessarily change, though. Couldn't Acela fares just as easily (or more easily) go up?
144 Thegeek : Probably not, but air's market share would be decimated.
145 Mayor : Ah, but you don't, though. Since the flights can depart up to 30-45 minutes after the first one, by the time the last flight leaves, the inbounds for
146 Cubsrule : ...but I wonder how much of a time difference is necessary for that to happen. As long as the FRA has the crashworthiness standards it currently has,
147 InnocuousFox : I'm curious as to what experience that would be and if it is with airlines/airports that already have a hybridized system leaning toward a rolling hu
148 Mayor : Is 23 years at SLC, enough? DL at SLC first had a define bank system and then went to more of a rolling hub, later. Even with defined banks, there is
149 InnocuousFox : And yet you have very pronounced peaks of utilization. If you think of those peaks and valleys as sand in a dish, what happens if you shake the dish
150 Mayor : True, but using that theory, the best way to schedule would be to have departures every 10 minutes or so. Nice theory, but it sure wreaks havoc at a
151 Thegeek : Not sure how much of a problem the crashworthiness standards is. Isn't it more inadequate catenary, track geometry, sharing the track with slower ser
152 InnocuousFox : That's not entirely true. A perfect rolling hub would have an arrival from and a departure to a destination every 60-120 minutes. That way, your maxi
153 RB211 : Honestly I would think a lot of what makes ATL "tick" is the Southeast and Delta Connection. People around here are pretty much brand loyal to basical
154 Cubsrule : It's all of those things in some places. Acela can operate at its maximum design speed on some parts of the route, though, and still isn't as fast as
155 FlyASAGuy2005 : The whole subject of banks, rolling banks, etc. is a tad foreign. I understand the concept but only working at the airport for about 2 years and after
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