Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Polar Routes  
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 524 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13686 times:

I'm flying ORD-DEL this October and am pretty excited. I think I read on this board that it is the closest one can get to the North Pole from a flight originating in North America.

Are there any other long haul routes that fly closer to the North Pole, or just as close as AA ORD-DEL? Thanks.

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 524 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13685 times:

SIN-EWR comes to mind.

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13625 times:



Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 1):
SIN-EWR comes to mind.

SIN-EWR is typically routed over the Pacific. Not polar at all.

EWR-SIN can go over the pole or over Europe/Asia. When I flew it a few years ago, we went absolutely directly over the north pole. It was interesting to be on a heading of north for the first 4 hours of the flight. We zig zagged through Russia, Mongolia and China though.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13612 times:

Is any airline operating SEA-DME anymore? That's pretty close to the pole.

EK's SFO-DXB and LAX-DXB routes can also be flown over the pole.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineGerbenYYZ From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13584 times:

YYZ-HKG comes pretty close I think...

User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13562 times:

What about CO's EWR-HKG?

User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13458 times:

In the northern hemisphere, flying westbound , typically any city pair that are 180 degrees of longitude +- about 10 degrees apart. East bound the route is more likely to take into account the tail winds on the day and use these to maximum advantage .
In the southern hemisphere I believe there are no trans-polar air ways due to lack of alternate airfields . Also I believe passenger aircraft operation is not permitted south of the 60th parallel.


User currently offlinePWMRamper From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 623 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13381 times:



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):

Didn't Air New Zealand or Qantas have Antarctic routes?


User currently offlineTeme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13350 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

AY's HEL-NRT-HEL was polar route before Russia allowed fly over Siberia. The plane used was DC-10-30ER  Smile


Flying high and low
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13321 times:



Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 7):
Didn't Air New Zealand or Qantas have Antarctic routes?

Yes, there are some "sightseeing" flights flown by Qantas over Antarctica, but not many -- they're seasonal, I think.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):
In the southern hemisphere I believe there are no trans-polar air ways due to lack of alternate airfields .

Wouldn't that only be a problem for twin-engine aircraft due to ETOPS?

I guess the best candidates for such a routing would be MEL-GRU, PER-SCL, PER-EZE or AKL-CPT, but to my knowledge, no airline flies these routes nonstop. MEL-GRU would probably be the most likely of these.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):
Also I believe passenger aircraft operation is not permitted south of the 60th parallel.

Does LAN's SCL-SYD route not fly this far south? I admit my latitudinal geography isn't great, so it might not come this close, but I'm just curious.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1963 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13273 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
EK's SFO-DXB and LAX-DXB routes can also be flown over the pole.

Yeah, that's why the EK 77L arrives on the north side. It comes down the coast, turns over Santa Monica then does the u-turn into LAX... same as the flights from SFO.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineApjung From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13222 times:



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):

Oh, so that's why my flight on UA from ORD to NRT flew into the Arctic Circle and into Russian airspace but the return trip from NRT to IAD only flew over ANC.



Andy P. Jung
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13209 times:

In February 2008 I flew ORD-HKG on UA and the captain announced that we came within 35 miles of the North Pole. It was a pretty cool flight.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineTheCheese From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13164 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

BA used to have 747s on Tokyo-ANC-London that came close... likewise the Tokyo-ANC-Copenhagen DC-10 service on SAS. This was back in the 80s, before Russian overflights became economically feasible.

User currently offlineFinnaviation From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13039 times:



Quoting CHI787ORD (Thread starter):
I'm flying ORD-DEL this October and am pretty excited. I think I read on this board that it is the closest one can get to the North Pole from a flight originating in North America.

Are there any other long haul routes that fly closer to the North Pole, or just as close as AA ORD-DEL? Thanks.

I can't imagine how AA0292 is close to the North Pole as it goes over Helsinki. Just like today N799AN crossed Finland about 12:00pm.
Depending winds AA0292 comes from Norway thru Sweden, like Finnair's AY006 JFK-HEL, goes over Helsinki to Estonia from Estonia to Russia.

Shortest route from US to India is via Finland.  Wink


User currently offlineTsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12942 times:

CX JFK-HKG perhaps?

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12890 times:



Quoting Finnaviation (Reply 14):
Shortest route from US to India is via Finland.



Quoting TheCheese (Reply 13):
BA used to have 747s on Tokyo-ANC-London that came close... likewise the Tokyo-ANC-Copenhagen DC-10 service on SAS. This was back in the 80s, before Russian overflights became economically feasible.

From the late 1950s until the Trans-Siberian route was opened to non-Russian carriers, many carriers operated their Europe-Japan/Korea routes via ANC. Although much further than nonstop over Siberia, it was much shorter than the previous routing with several stops via points in the Middle East, India and other points in Asia.


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12836 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 9):
Wouldn't that only be a problem for twin-engine aircraft due to ETOPS?

Australia and N.Z. are/have moved to a EDTO standard which is similar to the LROPS of other jurisdictions. This covers all turbine engined commercial aircraft. The standard pays a lot of attention to the standards for alternate aerodromes . The 60 S limitation is included in this , I believe.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 9):
I guess the best candidates for such a routing would be MEL-GRU, PER-SCL, PER-EZE or AKL-CPT, but to my knowledge, no airline flies these routes nonstop. MEL-GRU would probably be the most likely of these.

no airline flies these routes...... period.

QF flies SYD-EZE non-stop, the GC route for this goes to almost 70S , I would expect that
QF are not flying below 60S. On the SYD-JNB route that QF also flies the GC track does not extend below 50S.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5665 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12806 times:



Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 7):
Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):

Didn't Air New Zealand or Qantas have Antarctic routes?

No, they did not have Antarctic "routes". What they both did was fly "CHARTER" flights on sightseeing tours over the Antarctic, airline routes. The technical standards are different.

Australia/NZ and other countries have a blanket ban on operations below 60 South, WITHOUT specific approval. For airline flights the requirements for specific approval mean they are unlikely to happen anytime soon. I cant find the link right now and don't have time to look, but see Australia's CASA web site under Long Range Operations, SunriseValley may have it handy.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12659 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 18):
SunriseValley may have it handy.

link.....

www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/82_1.pdf


User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 12599 times:



Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 15):
CX JFK-HKG perhaps?

Correct. CX841 that departed 5 hours ago should soon fly by 8730N00000E which I believe is the most northernly point on its' flight plan (from Flightaware). However tomorrow's flight seems to be scheduled slightly more to the south.

Quoting Finnaviation (Reply 14):
I can't imagine how AA0292 is close to the North Pole as it goes over Helsinki. Just like today N799AN crossed Finland about 12:00pm.
Depending winds AA0292 comes from Norway thru Sweden, like Finnair's AY006 JFK-HEL, goes over Helsinki to Estonia from Estonia to Russia.

Shortest route from US to India is via Finland.

Correct. However flight scheduled to depart in an hour won't even go that far north - it will go over Stockholm, Baltic sea, Southern Estonia and on to Russia and Central Asia. The highest in The North it'll go is 63N, which is to the south of Reykjavik and whole of Iceland! http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL292


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 12493 times:

For those interested in northern polar operations go to an article at the following link and look at Figs 1 and following.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_16/polar.html


User currently onlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2640 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 12440 times:



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 17):
QF flies SYD-EZE non-stop, the GC route for this goes to almost 70S , I would expect that
QF are not flying below 60S. On the SYD-JNB route that QF also flies the GC track does not extend below 50S.

Looking at Great Circle mapper, unless you're flying with ETOPS 300, both these routes requires diversion to the north.
Great Circle mapper's only other shown ETOPS 207+ hole being way SW of Mexico and West of South America. At ETOPS 180, there's a section of the North Pole area that is shown.


User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11344 times:



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 22):
Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 17):
QF flies SYD-EZE non-stop, the GC route for this goes to almost 70S , I would expect that
QF are not flying below 60S. On the SYD-JNB route that QF also flies the GC track does not extend below 50S.

Looking at Great Circle mapper, unless you're flying with ETOPS 300, both these routes requires diversion to the north.
Great Circle mapper's only other shown ETOPS 207+ hole being way SW of Mexico and West of South America. At ETOPS 180, there's a section of the North Pole area that is shown.

AFAIK they fly SYD-EZE via Easter Island route.


User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10875 times:



Quoting Borism (Reply 23):
AFAIK they fly SYD-EZE via Easter Island route.

QF flies SYD-EZE nonstop, and even to overfly IPC (Easter Island) would be a huge diversion away from the Great Circle route. No way do they fly anywhere near IPC!



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
25 Loran : From South Pacific ops I would guess the former EZE-USH-AKL Service on AR (747-200) would have been the closest. I think it headed almost straight sou
26 Post contains links Wowpeter : There are actually 4 polar routes... Polar 1 to Polar 4... Polar 1 is closer to Europe... Polar 2 is closest to the North Polar (closest point is 60
27 Dash8pilot : I recently flew DXB-YYZ and then YYZ-AUH, on both flights i was monitoring in the inflight map on the PTVs. I noticed that on the first flight, the fl
28 SunriseValley : If I understand you correctly you are looking at the issue of alternate aerodromes.. In any event ETOPS would not apply to a 4-turbine engine aircraf
29 Musang : Routings vary according to the winds on the day. The GC route would have been presumably into the jetstream most of the way. I'm merely a flat-earth
30 Gemuser : There is nothing in it! DXB-YYZ = 5995 nm, DXB-SVO-YYZ = 6046 nm, a difference of 0.9% (All Great Circle). I suggest avoiding the congestion over Wes
31 Borism : So what other diversion airfields are there on the way from Australia-New Zealand to South America?[Edited 2009-08-06 05:22:34]
32 SASDC8 : What? that would be totally in the wrong direction would it not? AY to JFK normally fly over Sweden and Trondheim (Norway) and then onto the Atlantic
33 Copter808 : This sounds like it may be more a result of the mapping software, rather than the actual flight path. A Polar route from EWR-HKG, although nearly dir
34 Icareflies : Sorry guys but I did AA ORD-DEL 4 times and never the route was that far North. On the screen it always looked like just North of the ORD-AMS route.
35 Post contains images Eisenbach : I found an interesting flight. SQ21/22 flies EWR-SIN non-stop, starting at EWR at 23:00, arriving at SIN at 05:50 (+2days), travel time 18:50. Singapo
36 DLDTW1962 : If I'm not mistaken. SCL - SYD is flown straight across the Pacific. But, don't flame me if I'm wrong. I'm just quoting and artical that I read in Air
37 Qantas744ER : In 69' Pan Am did a series of test flights on the 707 to test the GM build CIVA INS (inertial navigation system) on various routes. The last flight re
38 MarkBoston : Sorry guys but I did AA ORD-DEL 4 times and never the route was that far North. On the screen it always looked like just North of the ORD-AMS route. I
39 Aircellist : It did not become "economically feasible", but "politically feasible". At some point, there was almost no overflying of soviet land by western jets,
40 Finnaviation : No. AY006 does not fly to Estonia. AA does sometimes on ORD-DEL.
41 SunriseValley : This flight is eastbound . See my comments in Reply 6. Did you ever fly the route in reverse? If so what track did they use? The initial heading is 3
42 Yellowtail : Anyone remember that NZ DC10 that crashed on a sightseeing expedition to the S. Pole. I believe it was as a result of pilot error.
43 Super80 : I flew CO EWR-HKG roundtrip before and both legs were polar route. And I also flew UA ORD-HKG roundtrip...the ORD/HKG leg was polar route on a 747 and
44 Post contains links SunriseValley : Take a look at a recent thread on this topic. I believe it was pretty much agreed that there was nothing between about CHC and RGL on the SYD-EZE tra
45 SunriseValley : . The wrong coordinates for Mt Erebus were used. This was not the pilots fault he loaded what he was given.
46 Qantas744ER : Boy this opens a old can of worms The pilot DID follow the route he was given. BUT the question remains on WHY he decided to descend below the MSA of
47 SunriseValley : True, but did he descend any lower than was usual for that sight seeing flight which had been operated a number of times previously ? I have read McM
48 Danny123 : yeah, he makes a good point about the descent of the aircraft
49 SunriseValley : But this had become the norm for this particular sightseeing flight. All was well until someone goofed and provided the wrong coordinates for getting
50 Post contains images CAL : This was on Continental EWR-HKG.. Pretty close..
51 Post contains links Gemuser : Guys, one thing you are forgetting is that a map, any map, is a "planner representation of a "spherical reality" ie a flat representation of a reality
52 Post contains links Qantas744ER : I agree with that! Sadly others had decided to go below MSA before him already, giving some captains the idea it was ok as long as the weather was fi
53 SunriseValley : Thanks... H
54 Thegeek : Isn't USH slightly closer than RGL? Not much in it I suppose. Other than that you have IPC and PPT, and they are a seriously long way away for a mid
55 Post contains links Egghead : Here are some shots from a polar flight, DXB-LAX. http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14651
56 Borism : Cool, thanks!
57 Pellegrine : Yes. SQ's EWR-SIN has been much discussed here and on other sites. Sometimes it flies via the polar routes, although during strong jetstreams sometim
58 Post contains links SunriseValley : The Australian regulator has discretion according to a post from Gemuser .Apparently they are using it on the QF SYD-EZE route . For an actual flight
59 Post contains links FlyingBird : The flightradar on http://www.flygradar.nu/flygradar.php will have coverage over parts of greenland from next week.
60 Post contains links SunriseValley : There are ICAO committees that deal with these matters . Both Russia and China are part of these groups. No where in the world are air corridors set
61 Gemuser : Hey Hugh, Thanks, how in h**l did I miss that thread? Gemuser
62 SunriseValley : I don't know Allan ; the QF flight plan is interesting, I plotted it on GC mapper, quite an interesting curve.No doubt they are using a Flextrack bas
63 Post contains links FlyingBird : The Greenland radar is now online: http://www.flygradar.nu/flygradar.ph...45198266&lng=-4-.9775390625&zoom=5
64 SunriseValley : Is this real time ? If so why did I see AC877 one minute and the next minute it was not on the screen?
65 Post contains links SATexan : I have flown ORD-HKG on UA and ORD-DEL on AA. Both are polar routes. ORD-DEL is seasonally routed over the North Pole. In a recent USA today article,
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Polar Routes:Any Diversions? posted Sun Nov 6 2005 06:27:42 by B741
Polar Routes? posted Tue Jul 6 2004 04:53:47 by Skibum9
Any Polar Routes For The South Pole? posted Mon Dec 15 2003 05:43:47 by LUV4JFK
Commercial Polar Routes posted Sun Jul 28 2002 03:32:36 by Airtahitinui
Best Aircraft To Fly The Polar Routes? posted Mon Dec 24 2001 04:18:53 by TOMASKEMPNER
Boeing Article On Polar Routes posted Sun Nov 4 2001 21:27:52 by Teahan
Singapore Polar Routes posted Sun Sep 23 2001 19:44:17 by Singapore_Air
All Polar Routes And SIN - JFK posted Tue Mar 20 2001 18:57:01 by Singapore_Air
Airlines Using Polar Routes posted Tue Mar 6 2001 14:18:38 by Republic
Polar Routes + Longer Range = Bye Bye Anchorage posted Sat Mar 3 2001 21:46:15 by Copper1