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Why No DEN-NRT On UA.  
User currently offlineAirmaleJUM From United States of America, joined May 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9025 times:

I think UA would make money on a Denver-Tokyo flight. I feel that this is a missing link in the network for connections. What do you all think? Also do you think we will ever see a NRT-MEM at DL/NW?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9013 times:

UA feeds alot of connecting traffic to NRT through ORD, SFO, and IAD. There probably isn't enough O&D to sustain NRT-DEN, for example like there is NRT-SEA.

User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9007 times:

With hubs at SFO and LAX, there is really no need for UA to serve DEN-NRT nonstop. The O&D market from Denver to Tokyo is relatively small, and UA's long-range aircraft are better served operating higher-volume city pairs.

I doubt you will see MEM-NRT for the same reason. If NW didn't serve this route, with its major hub at NRT, prior to the merger, I can't see why DL would operate it.

All that being said, when the 787 was first being developed, DEN-NRT was mentioned as a possible market for that aircraft -- it is designed to allow airlines to fly these smaller-volume routes with a smaller, more efficient aircraft. Only time will tell if that pans out for DEN or not.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8938 times:

ANA is eying Denver with its 787s. Here's an article from April:

Quote:
A recent interview with the new president of ANA, Japan’s premier air carrier, divulged that ANA has put Denver near the top of its list for new city pairs when the Boeing 787 aircraft is ready for service.

http://www.metrodenver.org/blog-tags...n-Denver-international-flight.html

If ANA does launch this route, UA will most definitely codeshare on it just as they do on LH's daily FRA flight.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineMogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8825 times:

DL needs SLC-NRT because they lack a proper west coast hub with sufficient feed (although NW does SEA/SFO/LAX-NRT, feed is only minimal), and it would involve too much backtracking if they need to route Asia-bound customers via DTW/ATL.

UA, however, has massive feeds into SFO, so the only thing you gain would be 1-stop from small mountain-time-zone towns that hub in DEN but not SFO, which is a niche market anyway.


User currently offlineGXMan From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8575 times:



Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 4):
DL needs SLC-NRT because they lack a proper west coast hub with sufficient feed (although NW does SEA/SFO/LAX-NRT, feed is only minimal), and it would involve too much backtracking if they need to route Asia-bound customers via DTW/ATL.

Not so much anymore. There is another thread on here, SLC-NRT ends Oct 1. I just don't see that many people flying from DEN, or SLC, to NRT.



Steve
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3114 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8548 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 2):
I doubt you will see MEM-NRT for the same reason. If NW didn't serve this route, with its major hub at NRT, prior to the merger, I can't see why DL would operate it.

Not that it matters in the context of nonstop service, but I believe NW did operate MEM-LAX-NRT service (same plane/flight number) in the '80's. I seem to recall NW 742s at MEM for this flight.



FLYi
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21421 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8529 times:



Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 4):
DL needs SLC-NRT because they lack a proper west coast hub with sufficient feed

But DL can't make SLC-NRT work out. And if they can't do that, I can't see UA making DEN-NRT work out.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8504 times:

Like mentioned above, when ANA starts getting their 787's into service DEN will have the NRT route we have been looking for.
The information I have is that ANA will be making DEN their first 787 start-up route. I should note however that my information does not come from the airline but rather the city so take that for what it is. (I personally think that the info. is VERY good info!)



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 898 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8375 times:



Quoting AirmaleJUM (Thread starter):
I think UA would make money on a Denver-Tokyo flight

I think the same thing, there is plenty of O&D traffic here for a 772

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 1):
UA feeds alot of connecting traffic to NRT through ORD, SFO, and IAD.

There is a lot of connecting traffic through DEN for domestic so I do not see why they would not book through DEN instead of ORD, because of people who try to avoid ORD, I really could see people flying DEN-NRT if ANA does not do it with the 787, but I think UA is hoping that ANA does it so UA does not have to use its own metal



"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8262 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
But DL can't make SLC-NRT work out. And if they can't do that, I can't see UA making DEN-NRT work out.

DEN is a much bigger O&D market than SLC, so just because DL couldn't make SLC-NRT work, it doesn't mean UA or NH wouldn't be able to make DEN-NRT work.

Keep in mind that both DEN and NRT are Star Alliance hubs. SLC is a SkyTeam hub, but NRT is not.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1604 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8241 times:



Quoting BA (Reply 10):

Keep in mind that both DEN and NRT are Star Alliance hubs. SLC is a SkyTeam hub, but NRT is not.

That's not entirely true; while UA's DEN and NH's NRT hubs are obviously far larger, DL now has its own hubs at both SLC and NRT. SLC-NRT is/was a SkyTeam hub-to-hub flight.


User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8141 times:



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 8):
Like mentioned above, when ANA starts getting their 787's into service DEN will have the NRT route we have been looking for.
The information I have is that ANA will be making DEN their first 787 start-up route. I should note however that my information does not come from the airline but rather the city so take that for what it is. (I personally think that the info. is VERY good info!)

I believe their first 787 has already been confirmed as NRT-FRA? I thought I read something on here awhile ago about how they were planning on switching that flight from 1x744 to 2x788 or something like that.


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8083 times:

There was a thread on the forum today that SLC-NRT is going to be terminated. DL can fly SLC-SEA-NRT with a 763 with no problem and it might work out better.

DEN-NRT I always thought would have more success (much more than DEN-LHR.) But to be fair, UA can do the same thing with feeding the DEN O&D through SEA/SFO/LAX to NRT.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineAzncsa4qf744er From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7872 times:

Technically speaking, DEN-NRT on UA does exist. UA875 is serve via SEA....

Quoting Steex (Reply 11):
SLC-NRT is/was a SkyTeam hub-to-hub flight.

NRT was never a SkyTeam hub. The main dominate players at NRT is Star Alliance and OneWorld.


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1604 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7864 times:



Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 14):

NRT was never a SkyTeam hub. The main dominate players at NRT is Star Alliance and OneWorld.

NRT is a hub for DL/NW, which is a SkyTeam member. I am making no attempt to claim that SkyTeam has the market share at NRT that either Star or OneWorld has in NH and JL, respectively, but it is not as if NRT is just another spoke either.

I agree that DEN-NRT seems like it would be more successful than SLC-NRT, and that is in large part due to the fact that DEN is a much larger market than SLC and that Star is larger at DEN and NRT than SkyTeam is at SLC and NRT. I also agree that ICN is the dominant SkyTeam hub in that region of the world, not NRT. However, that does not mean that NRT is not a hub for DL/NW, and by extension, SkyTeam.


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7781 times:



Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 12):

I believe their first 787 has already been confirmed as NRT-FRA? I thought I read something on here awhile ago about how they were planning on switching that flight from 1x744 to 2x788 or something like that.

That very well could be as I said my information comes from people within the city and not the airline so your info might be better and more current.

As far as UA doing the route, the city has asked for it and we made a commitment to the city to add additional international service but the industry keeps changing and we have to adjust our network accordingly. While DEN is a large hub with good O/D numbers the fact remains that UA is competing in DEN with mostly domestic carriers and continues to offer DEN passengers direct international flights routed through our many hubs around the network. DEN passengers enjoy several options for connecting NRT flights and flights thought the United worldwide network.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9246 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7007 times:



Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 14):
NRT was never a SkyTeam hub. The main dominate players at NRT is Star Alliance and OneWorld.

huh? Then why does Delta call it a hub? I guess they don't know their own network?



yep.
User currently offlineCessna172RG From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6979 times:

Ummmm...then explain the NW flights out of NRT.


Save the whales...for dinner!!!
User currently offlineAAce24 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 849 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6843 times:



Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 14):
NRT was never a SkyTeam hub. The main dominate players at NRT is Star Alliance and OneWorld.

It most certainly is a SkyTeam hub.


User currently offlineCOFanNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6163 times:



Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
I think the same thing, there is plenty of O&D traffic here for a 772

According to the DOT data, in Q1 2009 only 23.1 people flew from DEN to NRT per day each way. That strikes me as far too few people to fill a 772.


User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6041 times:



Quoting COFanNYC (Reply 20):
According to the DOT data, in Q1 2009 only 23.1 people flew from DEN to NRT per day each way. That strikes me as far too few people to fill a 772.

Very interesting. I'd like to see how the other quarters of the year stack up against this. Any chance you can provide that too?


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4019 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5926 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 2):
The O&D market from Denver to Tokyo is relatively small

But substantially larger than SLC-NRT.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 13):
There was a thread on the forum today that SLC-NRT is going to be terminated. DL can fly SLC-SEA-NRT with a 763 with no problem and it might work out better.

I think the powers that be thought that if PDX-NRT worked, than SLC-NRT might work given similarly sized O&D markets. But timing SLC-SEA/PDX flights to connect will work better for the time being. Also upon the return, the FIS facilities at SEA and PDX are better suited for larger crowds. Despite the improvements at SLC over the last year, the CDG flight still makes it a longer process than it should be. I think DL would be better with a second Europe flight from SLC to LGW or AMS, and they would perform better than NRT. DEN, PHX or LAS has more of a market for trans-Pacific service than does SLC.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineMogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5897 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
DEN, PHX or LAS has more of a market for trans-Pacific service than does SLC.

When UA and NW have trouble sending transpacific flights out of SEA to anywhere but NRT, i don't see how DEN/PHX/LAS stands a chance.

Since there's a general lack of interest for Asia tourism by North Americans (compared to Europe), Asian flights need to have reasonable business ties or VFR to work (plus a lack of suitable planes for really thin flights, unlike TATL 757). One can route CVG-AMS with a much easier time than SLC-NRT (or ICN).

That being said, UA knows how to leverage their partner in NRT much more than DL/NW knows how to leverage KE (esp in the light of the highly rated and superior hub of ICN).


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5852 times:



Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 1):
for example like there is NRT-SEA

And in the case of UA, SEA-NRT is barely sustainable as it is. Consistently the poorest performer of all UA's NRT transpac flights. A year or two back there were the serious rumors of downgrading SEA-NRT to 763, even.

On the other hand, SEA-NRT is one of NW's strongest transpac routes - being upgraded to 10x weekly last summer.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 2):
If NW didn't serve this route, with its major hub at NRT, prior to the merger, I can't see why DL would operate it.

NWA had no aircraft that could realistically do it.

A330-200: not even close to the range & endurance required for the route
747-400: WAYY too big

787 would, of course, be the ideal type to ever operate such a route.

Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 14):
Technically speaking, DEN-NRT on UA does exist. UA875 is serve via SEA....

Obviously no one is interested in 1-stop routes. Using one stops, you could make all kinds of ridiculous assertions, like saying UA serves IAH-KWI!! *cough* with a stop in IAD *cough*



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
25 Post contains links DIA77 : The numbers you are looking at are just for the month of January - that's the last month of data available from the bureau of transportation statisti
26 SLCUT2777 : SEA has always had this problem being in the shadow of YVR and SFO. It's amazing to look at the trans-Pac destinations from Vancouver compared to Sea
27 ATTart : Wrong, they were never considering downgrading to a 763.
28 OP3000 : The two SkyTeam hubs in Asia are ICN and CAN (Guangzhou). NRT may be called a hub by DL/NW like a lot of US airlines have historically done with base
29 COFanNYC : " target=_blank>http://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_Sele...riers I actually don't use T100 data since the data only reflects the number of passengers on
30 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Delta is "suppose" to restart SLC-NRT May personally i think they will restart it if the economy/business travel picks up even a medium recovery. If t
31 OP3000 : Perhaps, but I think by next year DL management will have gravitated back to being a lot more conservative when launching new long-haul routes, given
32 Steex : That comes down to the problem where a hub can only be defined but what the operating airline calls it. While I understand your premise and in fact c
33 DeltaL1011man : Wait when did they cut it? Or are you just saying with no proof? Hard to call it a failure if its running 6x weekly in the winter. Thats the plan. AT
34 OP3000 : Reducing from daily to six times a week two weeks after inaugurating indicates a poorly planned launch, which goes to my previous point on them proba
35 DIA77 : The BTS data confirms that 21.3 passengers a day traveled between DEN and NRT via SEA on UA in January. The Bureau of Transportation Statistics uses
36 Transpac787 : Oh okay... They were considering downgrading SEA-NRT as well as the NRT-SIN tag. This was at the same time they were considering converting a couple
37 Super80DFW : Do you have anything to back up your statement? I'd sure like to know why you think they weren't, and of course, have numbers to back it up.
38 ATTart : I like to see your proof they were thinking about it. Do, you work for the company? I already know that answer!
39 Steex : That's probably true. In better times, I would tend to the PEK has increased importance relative to NRT simply from the fact that it provides good ac
40 EXAAUADL : UA does all their forecast as NOC (Not Otherwise Carried), meaning the incremental traffic on DEN-NRT has to make the flight profitable, not just the
41 Super80DFW : I never said they were. I just wanna know why you're so positive they weren't. Or is it just something you *think* is wrong? You seem rather sure tha
42 Super80DFW : And also, being an FA, I'm sure you hear ALL of the company's proprietary rumor talk about equipment downgrades and all, no? Maybe when the economy b
43 Transpac787 : Yes, AA has proven it. Medical divert on a DFW-NRT into DEN. Pulled into the customs gates at Con-A, deplaned the pax, and pushed back shortly after
44 Super80DFW : Yeah, that was March 23rd. I flew DEN-DFW on AA that afternoon. I remember chuckling about how on the gate screen, under American 175, it said "Bever
45 Transpac787 : It seems AA has done it twice, even. The time I got the pictures of the plane was in October 2006 - I didn't know about March 2009. Even further prov
46 Post contains links COFanNYC : We're talking about two different things here. The statement I responded to was about local traffic...traffic that starts their journey at DEN and en
47 N104UA : Exactly with the DEN-NRT via SEA it is just a fraction of the people who fly through other cities for DEN-NRT, on all carriers and UA would be able t
48 DIA77 : The DB1B data appears to only show domestic route pairings. In addition, the sample size is 10% in absolute terms and only uses US carriers. Can you
49 Post contains links COFanNYC : I cannot. DB1B international is not publicly available on the BTS website. It is only available to US Citizens and one has to apply for access but I
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