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The Least On-Time Flight In America Is...  
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 9462 times:

...DL Connection/9E's MSP-FWA, flight 2330. Never on-time this past June, with an average delay of 43 minutes according to the USDOT. More and a video from KSTP-TV 5 here.

I was shocked... is it 9E's fault, DL/NW's fault, or MSP's fault? Either way, it may get worse, as MSP runway construction is starting later this month...


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1896 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 9377 times:

MSP has helped NW post good on-time numbers, even through tough winters. It's definitely not a problem with MSP. The flight number has changed for MSP-FWA (looks like 2445 now), and it appears like 9E has fixed the issue. The flight is now consistently hitting its mark.

It looks like KSTP was having a slow news day. It must have been time to pick on NW or MSP. The blame should be put squarely on 9E, and it should have been mentioned that the numbers are now very good for that route. Of course they did neither.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3802 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8860 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 1):
The blame should be put squarely on 9E

The issue of where the blame rightly belongs aside... looks like we have yet another example of the typical game the legacies play with their regional surrogates.... in this instance, when things go wrong, it's all about Pinnacle.... or it could have been Compass or Mesaba or Comair or ASA or Skywest or Shuttle America/Republic or whomever. On the other hand, when there is positive news to report it's all about Northwest/Delta....notwithstanding the reality that the airline(s) directly involved in making good news is one of their surrogates. Same story, just different names, when another legacy and one of its surrogates does poorly or well.

The legacies assume they can have it both ways --- Put their name all over a job well done by their regional affiliates and then omit their own name altogether and name only the name of the actual operating airline when there is blame to be made for job poorly done by one of their surrogates -- never mind that the flight(s) concerned was marketed and sold exclusively with a flight number bearing the code of the legacy airline to whom the regional operating carrier is beholden.







[Edited 2009-08-06 08:39:03]

User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10332 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8786 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 2):
...the typical game the legacies play with their regional surrogates.... in this instance, when things go wrong, it's all about Pinnacle.... or it could have been Compass or Mesaba or Comair or ASA or Skywest or Shuttle America/Republic or whomever. When there is positive news to report it's all about Northwest/Delta....notwitstanding the reality that the airline(s) directly involved in making good news is one of their surrogates. Same story, just different names, when another legacy and one of its surrogates does poorly or well.

The legacies assume they can have it both ways --- Put their name all over a job well done by their regional affiliates and then omit their own name altogether and name only the name of the actual operating airline when there is blame to be made for job poorly done by one of their surrogates, never mind that the fliight was marketed and sold exclusively with a flight number bearing the code of the legacy airline to whom the regional operating carrier is beholden.

Well, the legacy airline is expecting the operating carrier to do a good job operating the flight on their behalf.

In many cases, the legacy picks up baggage delivery expenses, hotel expenses, etc. depending on how the contract is written, even though that particular problem may not be their fault.

I think your paranoia is showing, just a little bit. The connection airlines should expect this to happen when they contract themselves out with the legacy carrier's name.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8714 times:
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Could this have anything to do with some scheduling manipulations to avoid crew timing out? Aren't duty times longer during IROPS?


When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10332 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8686 times:

You'll notice, in the article, that they never mention how late the flight left MSP, just that it was late arriving. In June, between MSP and FWA, there are any number of reasons that it could have been late, including enroute weather, ATC delays, etc.

I've said this before but this is what makes the DOT's method of determining "on time" so bogus as it benefits the gov't. entities involved and lays it all on the airlines. All they care about is whether the flight reached its destination within 15 minutes of schedule; not the reasons that it may not have.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3802 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8599 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 3):
Well, the legacy airline is expecting the operating carrier to do a good job operating the flight on their behalf...

...The connection airlines should expect this to happen when they contract themselves out with the legacy carrier's name.

True enough... however, should the legacies be given "a pass" any time one of their surrogates drops the proverbial ball....while receiving all the credit for a job well done by a regional affiliate?

That is how the legacies apparently see the relationship -- they feel they should be totally free to hire whomever they please to replace an ever-expanding percentage of their mainline flights with RJs and turboprops bearing the name and paint scheme of the legacy airline they represent -- while the legacy to whom the regional is contracted assume they should bear none of the blame or responsibility when things go wrong.

While I am not in any way excusing 9E from any of the blame they may bear, my point is that Northwest/Delta are no less to blame inasmuch as it was their choice to contract with 9E (in this case) to pose in virtually every way just as if 9E actually is Northwest/Delta. To suddenly spin it as though 9E has only some vague, distant, irrelevent relationship to NW/DL when something goes wrong -- and exactly the opposite when something goes right -- is nothing more, nothing less, than another example of how the U.S. legacies operate and why they are the objects of widespread cynicism and skepticism.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10332 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8564 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):


Quoting Mayor (Reply 3):
Well, the legacy airline is expecting the operating carrier to do a good job operating the flight on their behalf...

...The connection airlines should expect this to happen when they contract themselves out with the legacy carrier's name.

True enough... however, should the legacies be given "a pass" any time one of their surrogates drops the proverbial ball....while receiving all the credit for a job well done by a regional affiliate?

That is how the legacies apparently see the relationship -- they feel they should be totally free to hire whomever they please to replace an ever-expanding percentage of their mainline flights with RJs and turboprops bearing the name and paint scheme of the legacy airline they represent -- while the legacy to whom the regional is contracted assume they should bear none of the blame or responsibility when things go wrong.

While I am not in any way excusing 9E from any of the blame they may bear, my point is that Northwest/Delta are no less to blame inasmuch as it was their choice to contract with 9E (in this case) to pose in virtually every way just as if 9E actually is Northwest/Delta. To suddenly spin it as though 9E has only some vague, distant, irrelevent relationship to NW/DL when something goes wrong -- and exactly the opposite when something goes right -- is nothing more, nothing less, than another example of how the U.S. legacies operate and why they are the objects of widespread cynicism and skepticism.

My point is that unless it can be shown that the delay is directly attributeable to the legacy, it is the contracted carrier that is operating the flight, therefore, the blame is theirs.

As much as I'd like to see EVERYTHING go mainline, that just isn't going to happen and carriers contracting their services out is the way it's going to be.

When those letters of complaint are written by the passengers, I'd be willing to bet that they don't go to Pinnacle, Skywest or Republic.....they go to the name they see on the a/c, DELTA.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2760 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8508 times:

Almost like how DL/NW filed one of the MEM-OKC RJ's. Flight time is an hour, but block time is 1:50.

I sat on the ramp waiting for a gate at OKC for 45 minutes, but we were "on time" because DL/NW has it scheduled as 1:50. Half of that time is spent waiting on an OKC gate. So we parked at the gate on time, but 45 minutes later than we should have. Captain says it's a daily occurrence. We weren't the only RJ waiting for a gate, a fellow 9E RJ was also waiting for a gate and he arrived before us. We were in a line to find a DL/NW gate.



No info
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10332 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8399 times:



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 8):
Almost like how DL/NW filed one of the MEM-OKC RJ's. Flight time is an hour, but block time is 1:50.

The airlines are almost forced to do this, because of the on time rules I mentioned above.

Sometimes headwinds or weather is factored into the time and it doesn't materialize so, the flight arrives early. It's unfortunate, when a flight arrives so early, but you can't park a plane at a gate that's already occupied, can you?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1896 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8355 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 2):

Since the KSTP article never once mentioned the word "Pinnacle", I don't see how it was a one-way blame street in this case. The closest Pinnacle came to being mentioned was "Northwest Airlink". The rest was Northwest, Northwest, etc. I bet the general public would take from that article that it was all or primarily a problem with either Northwest or MSP, which is likely erroneous.

At least the Star Tribune had a much better piece. However neither media outlet mentioned that the June problems became no more starting in July.


User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 766 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8297 times:

I don’t think anyone is trying to hide anything about the operator in that report. It was stated to be a Northwest Airlink flight operated by 9E. Take it how ever you see fit.
I also completely disagree that the “legacies” somehow disassociate themselves from a regional partner when something bad happens. When the CO Connection operated by Colgan Air flight crashed in BUF it was the CO emergency response team that handled everything.


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8266 times:

Also remember this airplane comes in for maintenance as a RON. I wonder if they had to constantly delay the flight to get the correct airplane into the maintenance facility for it to be worked on. Just a thought....

User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7910 times:

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 12):
Also remember this airplane comes in for maintenance as a RON. I wonder if they had to constantly delay the flight to get the correct airplane into the maintenance facility for it to be worked on. Just a thought....

Plus, keep in mind that they transitioned from 9E to OH/RHS ground handling at FWA for all NW Airlink flights recently. (This is the same company that DL Connection, CO Connection, and UAX use @ FWA.) So I'm wondering if some of the NW ground folks at MSP accidentally used 9E systems instead of OH/RHS, and had to get transferred?

Quoting Mayor (Reply 7):
When those letters of complaint are written by the passengers, I'd be willing to bet that they don't go to Pinnacle, Skywest or Republic.....they go to the name they see on the a/c, DELTA.



  

You hit the nail on the head. Most people aren't like us a.netters... they don't see or remember the tiny "Operated by Pinnacle Airlines" titles under the cockpit window of the CRJ, and they probably throw away their boarding pass stating the operator name in the seat pocket (or wash it away, as they forgot to take it out of their nice new khakis). They just see and remember the red widget logo on a blue background and big, bold blue "DELTA CONNECTION" titles in Delta's Whitney font. So they write to DL hoping for a refund from their DL Connection delays and mishap, and not 9E (or XJ, S5, CP, OH, OO, F8, etc.) because they remembered the Delta name first and foremost.

[Edited 2009-08-06 12:42:45]

[Edited 2009-08-06 12:48:29]


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3886 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7660 times:

The complaint letters may go to the airline with their name on the side... but I assure you the issue trickles down to the parties involved at the airlink/connection carrier. Typical wanna be aviation journalism... all fluff, no substance and certainly no fact or solution.

Regarding the relationship between Airlink/connection and mainline. Mainline shares a HUGE responsibility in the operations of their regional partners. Mainline does the bag transfers and mainline has the ability to cancel or hold the airlink/connection flights for whatever operational reasons. So... yes, it is our responsibility as the regional partner to operate safe and ontime, mainline has their indirect and direct influence as to the overall operation.


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4786 times:

Accordign to WANE-TV here in Fort Wayne, it looks like FWA-MSP is getting the axe come 9/1/09. (Too bad... I liked the flight.)

Is FWA-CVG next?



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2760 posts, RR: 33
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4256 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):
Sometimes headwinds or weather is factored into the time and it doesn't materialize so, the flight arrives early

It is one thing if my flight arriving that early was a rare occurrence. But when it happens every day, you kind of wonder. Even on a MEM-OKC leg, if headwinds were bad, it might only add 20 minutes to the flight at the most, and the plane is still waiting for a gate for ~25 minutes.

It's not like we pushed back from the gate at MEM 15 minutes early, somehow caught magical tailwinds on a westbound flight, and taxied to the ramp at the taxiway speed limit, then wondered why we arrived early. It happens every day on this flight. That is my point. The flight doesn't arrive early, according to Delta, the block time is 1:55 minutes, flightaware clocks it as 0:50-1:10 every day. So, anywhere from ~1hr to 30 minutes is wasted sitting on the ground at OKC. It lands early, but pulls in to the gate on time.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):
but you can't park a plane at a gate that's already occupied, can you?

You don't say?  Yeah sure

I think it is poor scheduling if you schedule 2 aircraft to arrive while each of the 3 gates have departures boarding, and force the arrivals to wait for 20 minutes+ so 2 of those departures can push out. Daily.



No info
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3886 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4115 times:

I got an update from within on this issue... it seems as though the flight in question was SCHEDULED to operate with a block time that was easily 20-30 minutes SHORTER than the actual flight time. Therefore, it was an impossibility for the flight to arrive ontime. Blame for this goes squarely on DL for creating such silly marketing times and for Pinnacle for not listening to the crews who made the problem known and for not alerting DL to make the changes sooner.

User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12204 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3995 times:
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Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 1):
It looks like KSTP was having a slow news day. It must have been time to pick on NW or MSP

For KSTP it's always a good time to pick on NW and MSP..



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineCsturdiv From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 3882 times:



Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
it may get worse, as MSP runway construction is starting later this month...

Not to get off the original topic, but why did they wait so long to start this project? Shouldn't it start snowing in MSP in about a month or two and not stop until next May?  Smile Seriously, was there another project going on and the runway project was waiting on that?



Posting from somewhere between KORD and KRFD
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3886 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

The runway project is timed to start towards the end of the summer peak season and the best weather. The big NW/DL schedule change to the fall schedule happens on Aug 17, in time for the construction to start. Construction will be done by late October, just in time for fall to settle in.

User currently offlineSkyrat From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3555 times:



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 13):
So I'm wondering if some of the NW ground folks at MSP accidentally used 9E systems instead of OH/RHS, and had to get transferred?

9E systems? If you are talking about reservation systems it's all NW Pars(for now at least). This is all 9E on the delays.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 15):
Accordign to WANE-TV here in Fort Wayne, it looks like fwa-MSP is getting the axe come 9/1/09. (Too bad... I liked the flight.)

Is fwa-CVG next?

Lets hope CVG is not next. I wouldn't be surprised if it did. It would be nice to see FWA-LGA since they are now going to build up LGA.



flown:146,a319,a320,717,722,733,735,738,744,752,763,772,crj2,crj7,crj9,dc9,dc10,e135,e145,e170,e175,frj,md80
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3886 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

There are only 2 gates for the DCI carriers that have the DL computer system. So... an agent can't "accidently" use the DL computers to launch the flight. Again... the REASON why this flight was late every day, was that the marketing times did not reflect reality. This is mostly DLs fault, but 9Es as well, for not doing anything about it.

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