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Canada And South Africa Sign Air Agreement At Last  
User currently offlineDavidYYC From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

After all these years, at last we may see some better connections or even perhaps a direct flight YYZ-JNB would be good for a start. Here is an exerpt from the announcement with link below:

OTTAWA — Canada's Transport Minister, John Baird, and Minister of International Trade and Minister for the Asia-Pacific Gateway, Stockwell Day, today announced the successful conclusion of an air transport agreement with the Government of the Republic of South Africa. This first-time bilateral agreement allows scheduled direct air services to be operated between Canada and South Africa.

"South Africa is the 48th country since 2006 with which our Government has signed or updated an air agreement," said Minister Baird. "Under the leadership of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, our Government has moved forward at this unprecedented pace because ultimately travellers and shippers want choice in destinations, flights and routes, and better options for lower fares."

"The agreement will permit our citizens to fly more easily to South Africa, a regional hub for trade and investment," said Minister Day. "We are opening doors around the world for Canadian business and these air transport agreements encourage and support economic activity at home and abroad."

The agreement provides rights for airlines to operate passenger and all-cargo flights between the two countries with routing and pricing flexibility. Airlines may also choose to offer air services using the flights of other airlines, commonly known as code-sharing services. The agreement contains strong provisions dealing with aviation safety and security, reflecting the importance that both countries attach to these subjects.

The provisions of the agreement are being applied administratively prior to final signature of the agreement. This allows new air services to be introduced immediately.

Canada's Blue Sky policy encourages competition and the development of new and expanded international air services to benefit Canadian travellers, shippers, and the tourism and business sectors.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do?m=/index&nid=471789

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

This is really significant news in regards to a bilateral that should have been in place years ago. Expect a codeshare between AC and SA by November at the latest using LHR and FRA as the gateways. Not sure if this will mean that AC will also put it's code on the LH operated flights between FRA-JNB,though I suspect it's likely. I don't know if the gateways at JFK and IAD will be part of it due to limited or no effective connections to speak of. That would certainly change if SA were to consider a move from JFK to EWR and look at IAH in the future as a new USA gateway once CO joins Star Alliance.

User currently offlineDavidYYC From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

It certainly will improve the link between South Africa and Canada. Even since SA joined *A that has made a small difference. I wonder if the LH FRA-JNB route gets an AC code if there will be a reduction in price with the a combined fare ( eg YYZ-JNB via FRA or YYC-JNB via FRA).

What would really be nice would be seeing AC metal in JNB or CPT!? World Cup Soccer in SA next year, good timing!

I wonder if AC 77L could do the trip from YYZ, coming back might be a stretch considering the altitude at JNB.

[Edited 2009-08-05 20:44:12]

User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3771 times:

Thought I would try Google for any other related news on this bilateral,not much to report except this rather odd news item from about 2 weeks ago that alluded to there being a new bilateral between Canada and South Africa. What's especially interesting is the specific references to frequencies.

http://www.etravelblackboardasia.com/article.asp?id=63519&nav=109

It's a long shot that we will see YYZ-JNB non-stop service,never say never though. As for AC 77L,not sure if it has the ability take off out of JNB without taking too much of a penalty. SA)">DL is now using the same aircraft on the JNB-ATL route and reports are it's borderline. I wonder if TM would sub-lease the 2 A345 aircraft it got from AC to SA. I see them as having a need for the aircraft now that SA)">DL is probably taking some of their USA traffic with their non-stop(both ways).


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3720 times:
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Quoting 9252fly (Reply 3):
I see them as having a need for the aircraft now that SA)">DL is probably taking some of their USA traffic with their non-stop(both ways).

I think SA might be having a "wait and see" approach with regards to Delta's non-stop services...before jumping onto A345's. SA moved their non-stop USA - South Africa operations from IAD to JFK.... thus trying to tap the NYC - South Africa O&D market. IMHO it would be great if SA moved their JFK flights to EWR, once CO joins Star.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

What about AC doing YYZ-MIA-JNB, along the lines of what they once considered doing YYZ-LAX-SYD? The 77L I presume could easily make MIA-JNB. Would there be much of a market in MIA for this? Could they pick up any other STAR business in MIA? is this even allowed?

User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3691 times:



Quoting CayMan (Reply 5):
What about AC doing YYZ-MIA-JNB, along the lines of what they once considered doing YYZ-LAX-SYD? The 77L I presume could easily make MIA-JNB. Would there be much of a market in MIA for this? Could they pick up any other STAR business in MIA? is this even allowed?

This was discussed in a thread a year or so ago. At the time it would not be possible due to the lack of a bilateral between South Africa and Canada. The revised bilateral that triggered that thread a year ago had a lot to do with the revisions to the USA / Canada bilateral that would allow AC to theoretically operate that route provided there was a bilateral with South Africa. It is very much along the lines of the YYZ-LAX-SYD route that AC wanted to operate,but the Australian government objected as it was not in the bilateral(HNL was though). MIA would likely be successful if SA CO and UA were to code-share on the route,could also be a chance to get a leg up on AA as they would start it themselves if they could get their pilots to agree to operate ultra-long flights. There is also a large South African community in Florida to make the route viable with O&D. Other places that might work is via LIS with a TP SA codeshare,or DKR if a bilateral is in place with Senegal.


User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3609 times:



Quoting CayMan (Reply 5):
What about AC doing YYZ-MIA-JNB, along the lines of what they once considered doing YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Except doing so will require passengers to have US visa unless you're nationals within US visa waiver program. In the end, the best option is still a stop in West Africa. Speaking of such, maybe there's a market for YYZ-LOS-JNB (Toronto has a large Nigerian community as well).


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4794 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

So this an open skies deal or is it restricted to X number of weekly flights?

If this route is to be successful either it should be flown nonstop by AC or via an African city such as LOS or ACC and not via USA!


User currently offlineSA744 From South Africa, joined Nov 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

This is fantastic news if AC do fly to jnb im sure they will go via Miami which will be a real cash cow for them seeing that miami is full of south africans and a re desperate for a direct flight, or we will see SAA reinstating JNB-MIA then continuing on to YYZ. Good news anyway.Any one know how soom we will see flights starting

Thanks
SA744


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3452 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
So this an open skies deal or is it restricted to X number of weekly flights?

It is an open skies agreement.

Canada and South Africa Sign Air Agreement


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2244 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

An AC pilot told me a direct South Africa would come with the arrival of the 787's and after some of the first priority routes were looked after. And apparently there are some other "new routes" in the works but he wouldn't elaborate. I kind of felt he was more chatting for the benefit of the other pilots he was with, letting them know he was hooked inot the info pipeline  Smile.

User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3315 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 11):
An AC pilot told me a direct South Africa would come with the arrival of the 787's and after some of the first priority routes were looked after.

I'm trying to imagine what those priority routes would be. The arrival of the B787 aircraft in 2013 would certainly be an appropriate aircraft to operate the route. In the interim,if they were to try starting the route,then a direct flight via an intermediate point that would allow a B763 to operate the route would likely be a good start,ie,LIS. SA)">DL is a good example of how they have been able to build up a new market with a direct flight and eventually upgauge and go non-stop. The reality is that I don't think it will happen as I suspect that we will just see AC and SA codeshare over the gateways at LHR and FRA. The only other possible direct flight scenario that I could see happen is a SA JNB-DKR-YYZ with a A342.


User currently offlineJambo From Tanzania, joined Dec 2004, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

frankly there is not much traffic between southern africa and canada.
Even routing the flights JNB-LOS-YYZ will not be feasible.

Perhaps a codeshare agreement between the star carriers-
AC/SA for YYZ-LHR-JNB or YYZ-JFK-JNB


User currently offlineDavidYYC From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

If the market research is done in Canada, correctly, and South Africa is marketed well, as a tourist destination, I am sure that this route YYZ-JNB would do well, even three times weekly at first. There are a LOT of South Africans in Canada still with family connections in South Africa. If AC has the aircraft, the loads on this route will be good, providing of course the route is not overpriced.
I wait in eager anticipation to see how things unfold.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8572 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3264 times:
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Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 14):
There are a LOT of South Africans in Canada still with family connections in South Africa.



Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 14):
the loads on this route will be good, providing of course the route is not overpriced.

and therein lies the problem - the market for VFR ( visiting friends and relatives ) is traditionally price sensitive - and any service will be competing against connecting services - I am not sure that non-business pax will be prepared to pay a premium for the convenience of a direct service and I am not sure that there are enough business links to provide the necessary traffic in the premium cabins .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineDavidYYC From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3198 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 15):
I am not sure that non-business pax will be prepared to pay a premium for the convenience of a direct service and I am not sure that there are enough business links to provide the necessary traffic in the premium cabins .

Ho hum....so the whole deal and agreement was a total waste of time...? In your opinion. It was only signed for a codeshare agreement?
I do note though there are two "I am not sures" in your statement, and thats why I say some aggressive market research and marketing of the link will get it going.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8572 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3177 times:
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Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 16):
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 15):
I am not sure that non-business pax will be prepared to pay a premium for the convenience of a direct service and I am not sure that there are enough business links to provide the necessary traffic in the premium cabins .

Ho hum....so the whole deal and agreement was a total waste of time...? In your opinion. It was only signed for a codeshare agreement?
I do note though there are two "I am not sures" in your statement, and thats why I say some aggressive market research and marketing of the link will get it going.

Yes , I did say that I am not sure , unlike a lot of people on this site when I am giving my opinion I do not state it as fact  Wink

No , I dont believe that the agreement was a waste of time , I am just not sure ( again , only my opinion Big grin ) that it will lead to direct services any time soon . It will , IMHO , allow AC/SA to set up efficient codeshare connections either jointly or with their *A partners maybe with schedules of existing connections tweaked to allow more efficient connectivity , perhaps , over time if those codeshare connections stimulate sufficient growth then in the longer term direct flights may become cost effective .

Of course as this is only my opinion it is entirely possible that I will be proven wrong and that AC or SA or both will run direct services , but I am not going to hold my breath on it .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Here is something you can take to the bank because it came to me from an impeccable AC source this morning. AC will not start service to JNB any time soon. It will use the codesharing provisions to create a number of connecting possibilities - enough to ensure good quality connections. Right now, yields to SA are pitiful - much like they are in markets around the world. This summer, which is admittedly low season for SA, you can get a C$1000 return fare, all taxes in. You can't build a viable service with yields like that because you won't make up the losses in a four month high season.

So watch for code-sharing announcements.

As for the ability to fly the route, AC's 777-200LRs are largely commited - to YYZ-HKG and YVR-SYD. YYZ-JNB is ultra long haul flying and last I heard, AC doesn't have a firm understanding with its pilots' union on how 16-hour flights would be crewed.


User currently offlineDavidYYC From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3046 times:

Thanks Sebring for that "inside information".

I really did not expect to see any direct scheduled flights soon to JNB. It will be interested to see the codeshare flights through FRA or LHR, their timings and prices will be interesting.

I am a bit of fare watcher and did see YYC-JNB (via AMS or FRA) earlier in the summer for about CA$1400 all in, now there is nothing below CA$1999 right thru to end of October (using ITA search tool), anything later then October is getting towards the SA summer and higher travel season.

Nevertheless, this is an interesting development and I am still of the opinion that one day we will see SA metal here or AC metal in JNB; at least the options are there and available, should the demand arise.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2891 times:



Quoting Sebring (Reply 18):
This summer, which is admittedly low season for SA, you can get a C$1000 return fare, all taxes in.

Saw the same thing for departures out of YYC to JNB. Think it was a NW/KL flight option. Came in slightly under C$1000 taxes in,unheard of.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 18):
It will use the codesharing provisions to create a number of connecting possibilities - enough to ensure good quality connections.

Kind of what I figured as it's the sensible thing to do.


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