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When/Why Did NW Drop ORD/JFK-NRT Non-stops?  
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3786 posts, RR: 29
Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5215 times:

From the early days of Northwest's services to Far East Asia via Tokyo, Chicago and New York were major NW gateways to The Orient, having same-plane services to Tokyo and beyond and, when longer range aircraft became available, NW upgraded their ORD-NRT and JFK-NRT services to daily non-stops. So...

When did NW discontinue their non-stop flights to NRT from ORD and JFK, and...

For what reason(s)?

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Northwest discontinued their nonstop 747-400 flight from JFK to NRT back in 2005 and had planned to reinstate the route once they took delivery of the 787. I believe the route was dropped in part because of low demand. United dropped their nonstop flight to NRT as well a year later.

On June 4, 2009 Delta/Northwest reinstated the route with the 777-200. I doubt they will re-start ORD.

[Edited 2009-08-06 14:31:29]


No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4878 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5173 times:

In terms of ORD-NRT, once UA began competing service, NW's days on the route were numbered. UA had hub feed at either end where NW was limited to ORD-NRT and ORD beyond NRT traffic. I believe JL also began service on the route as well before NW finally dropped it. Not sure if AA and NH started the route before or after NW left, my memory on that is kinda hazy. I do know that NW held on for longer than I thought they would.

As for JFK, kinda the same only it was dropped later. NH, JL and CO at EWR, UA might have still been operating it as well. But NW has ZERO feed at JFK either on it's own or codeshare partners. It really was a stand alone route for them. Again, they held onto it longer than I thought they would. DL of course is a different story, all they feed they could want at either end of the route now.



Next Up: STL-TPA-BWI-PWM-BWI-STL
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5122 times:
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NW killed ORD to NRT when AA got nonstop rights along in 1998, UA had been flying teh route by then for a LONG time. JAL has been flying to ORD for over 20 years too.

User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4937 times:

UA started ORD-NRT in 1992.

User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4879 times:

UA also flew EWR-NRT with a 747-200 in the early-mid 1990s before CO started the route in 1998. People seem to forget about that one.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineSATexan From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4661 times:

I am certain that AA had a role in both instances...

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24312 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4544 times:



Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 1):
United dropped their nonstop flight to NRT as well a year later.

UA moved the authority to IAD instead.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15457 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4504 times:



Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 1):
I doubt they will re-start ORD.

I don't think that there is a big chance, but I wouldn't be shocked to see it return on a 787. They still fly SFO-NRT on an A330.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7502 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4337 times:



Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 1):
I believe the route was dropped in part because of low demand.

It wasn't low demand, in fact the planes were often full, what killed it really was the low yields that are on that route. So when the 787 was supposed to show up, that was supposed to be the first route that it was on.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7342 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

First lets talk about ORD-NRT:
Pre-regulation, NW almots had a mini-hub / focus city type operation out of ORD. In the 60's/70's had a decent number of routes out of ORD to places like ANC, HNL, MSY, MSP, etc.
NW started flying ORD-ANC-NRT/Tokyo in the early 60's.
In 1977 they started nonstop 747 service ORD-NRT. This was prior to the days of airlines operating large hubs.

The late 90's were an interesting time at NW. They had finally started to turn things around coming out of the financial meltdown in the early 90's and the NW-RC merger issues. Plus the US economy was going strong, and every was having a hey-day. At ORD, both AA and UA were duking it out for the 'battle of ORD'.

NRT was severely slot restricted and rights were hard to get into NRT. At the time UA had NRT service from ORD, but AA did not and at the time only offered DFW, SJC, and SEA service to NRT. In 1997, the US & Japan signed an agreement increase open skies and allow greater flights between the two country.

AA announced they were going to now launch ORD-NRT, and later LAX-NRT, and JFK-NRT.

NW decided they would pull ORD-NRT and the last flight was on June 1, 1998, and increase MSP-NRT to daily service (at the time it was weekly) and increase DTW-NRT to double daily. They also had launched MSP-KIX in 1997 and then launced DTW-NGO.

Essentially NW knew they couldn't compete on ORD, with 747's with no feed on the domesti side and route that was a carry-over from the pre-deregulation days came to an end.

Hence why the NW gate at the end of Concourse E at ORD is widebody capable, they used to park the 747 there.


Now JFK-NRT.
NW flew JFK-NRT for many years as well. This lasted until 2005 and was cut when NW filed for Ch. 11 bankruptcy. There were a few factors why NW had to drop the route.
- NW got extremely low yields on the flight. JFK-NRT had become very competitive with the competition from the Asian carriers plus AA. NW had no feed on the JFK side either
- Too large an aircraft to effectively operate the route. The A330's didn't have the range to do JFK-NRT, which probably could've lasted with an A332-sided aircraft. The 744 had way too much capacity which contributed to the low yields as it required a lot of low-yield consolidator fares to fill Y. 68 WBC seats to fill were too much out of JFK
- Aircraft routing. Due to the flight times of JFK-NRT and the need to connect with the 'beyond' flights at NRT to the intra-Asia flights, the aircraft spent 23 hours on the ground at JFK between flights. This resulted in terrible utilization. NW tried to route the a/c on a JFK-AMS-JFK routing and get back in time to fly JFK-NRT the next day but it was difficult to keep the integrity of the schedule. The summer that NW tried to route the 744 NRT-JFK-AMS-JFK-NRT, the JFK-NRT flight was notorously late leaving JFK.

Hence NW said they were suspending the route in 2005 and would return with the 787's. As you see now, DL launched the route that NW more or less used to operate and now with the merger has feed on both the JFK and NRT sides and an appropriate aircraft with the 777.


User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3322 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
Hence NW said they were suspending the route in 2005 and would return with the 787's. As you see now, DL launched the route that NW more or less used to operate and now with the merger has feed on both the JFK and NRT sides and an appropriate aircraft with the 777.

Isn't this being paired with TLV and/or MAD right now?



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 915 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3214 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
Essentially NW knew they couldn't compete on ORD, with 747's with no feed on the domesti side and route that was a carry-over from the pre-deregulation days came to an end.

That's true but do not forget that NW has a hub in NRT and another factor that contributed to killing both ORD and JFK to NRT service was the fact that many carriers expended their asian service hence less pax to NRT with NW.


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3512 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3139 times:



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
Essentially NW knew they couldn't compete on ORD, with 747's with no feed on the domesti side and route that was a carry-over from the pre-deregulation days came to an end.

Hence why the NW gate at the end of Concourse E at ORD is widebody capable, they used to park the 747 there.

Not that I think what I'm about to propose is ever going to happen, but does anyone think an ORD-NRT flight on a DL 772ER could be supported now that NW/DL @ ORD gets feeder traffic from six hubs (MSP, MEM, DTW, CVG, ATL, SLC - of course SLC feeder traffic for a Narita flight would be nil, most likely).

But instead of throwing 403 seats on a 744 at the route, this would be 268 seats on a more efficient 777, along with more hubs to feed traffic to this flight, if need be, plus Chicago O&D. It probably wouldn't be a good idea in this recession, but perhaps when things pick up again and more folks are doing international travel.

It's certainly a long shot, but it might be something to consider now that NW has DL equipment/frequent fliers and DL has NWs network in Asia.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3372 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3021 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):


The other item NW cited with the JFK-NRT pulldown was that they wanted the -400 to put on the LAX-NRT route which had been operating with a -200.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2710 times:



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 13):
Not that I think what I'm about to propose is ever going to happen, but does anyone think an ORD-NRT flight on a DL 772ER could be supported now that NW/DL @ ORD gets feeder traffic from six hubs (MSP, MEM, DTW, CVG, ATL, SLC - of course SLC feeder traffic for a Narita flight would be nil, most likely).

But instead of throwing 403 seats on a 744 at the route, this would be 268 seats on a more efficient 777, along with more hubs to feed traffic to this flight, if need be, plus Chicago O&D. It probably wouldn't be a good idea in this recession, but perhaps when things pick up again and more folks are doing international travel.

It's certainly a long shot, but it might be something to consider now that NW has DL equipment/frequent fliers and DL has NWs network in Asia.

I actually wondered this myself, as ORD is probably the largest market from which DL/NW does not have a nonstop to NRT...though at this point I dunno how many DL/NW (or even general SkyTeam) FFs there are left. Given further that KE already offers ORD service, it may just be that SkyTeam chooses to connect ORD to Asia via ICN instead of NRT...sort of like how many US cities have service on DL/NW/AF/KL to CDG or AMS but not both.



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
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