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DOT Denies US PHL-PEK Dormancy  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33278 posts, RR: 71
Posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9838 times:

In what we can only hope will be a sign of things to come, DOT has denied US Airways' waiver to keep PHL-PEK dormant past March 25, 2010.

Although DOT has indicated that the current request is premature and US Airways is welcome to apply for dormancy later, one can only help this becomes a trend of DOT denying airlines from hoarding limited-use frequencies.


a.
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9804 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
one can only help this becomes a trend of DOT denying airlines from hoarding limited-use frequencies.

One can hope.

Another reading of it, though, is that if the economy is doing much better by March, in theory there's no reason that US shouldn't fly it. Conversely, if the economy is still in bad shape, the DoT might gladly extend the dormancy.

Obviously, if AA goes to the DoT and says "look, the economy isn't so bad that we couldn't use these frequencies on ORD-PEK," that should change the calculus.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineGvroyphx From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9754 times:

well this is writing on the wall...if you don't fly it...you lose it! Like US will have the airplane to do this flight routing in the first place.

I can just see them serving Hamburgers in coach in any case  Smile


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26140 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

While I strongly agree on the concept of coming out against those airlines that sit on, or hoard unused frequencies, its not like any other carriers have stepped forward to contest the US dormancy and request the frequencies themselves.

Basically I see no harm with allowing US to roll them over for yet another year as there is simply no alternate use for them by anyone.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1762 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9651 times:

I would suspect that if US still feels that they can't run the route come February and nobody else objects, then DOT will approve a dormancy extension at that time. I think it is a good idea not to approve such an extension this far in advance though, as US certainly gives the impression that they are simply trying to avoid flying the route at all rather than playing the economic conditions by ear.

The fact that US doesn't even have an aircraft available to fly the route also makes their motives seem more questionable than other airlines who file for dormancy. I would not be surprised if the DOT is trying to send a message that if an airline applies for an authority and is granted it, they should be planning to and have the ability to fly it. DOT clearly does not want airlines attempting to just hoard authorities to limited access markets like China and Brazil, nor does it want to set a precedence that it is acceptable to receive said authorities without ever truly attempting to fly the route.


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9593 times:

Could NW use this frequency for DTW-PEK?


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9522 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Obviously, if AA goes to the DoT and says "look, the economy isn't so bad that we couldn't use these frequencies on ORD-PEK," that should change the calculus.

and why should AA be allowed to hoard frequencies but US can't.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. EVERY carrier needs to be told to operate every route or risk losing them.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
Could NW use this frequency for DTW-PEK?

DL would be happy to use a PEK frequency somewhere on its system... and DTW or LAX both make sense.

For those who wish to jump in, DL/NW's SEA-PEK route is not in the same class as AA or US' unused routes because NW's authority was used for its CAN route. That route is not in the same route award as AA and US which have never started their routes while NW/DL have asked for dormancy.

All carriers need to reactivate or start their routes but those carriers which were awarded routes which should have started months ago had best finalize plans for using them or risk losing them.

Methinks there will be alot of China authority activated by the end of March 2010.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9496 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
and why should AA be allowed to hoard frequencies but US can't.

In your rush to bash AA, you missed my point, which was that the ability or desire of another carrier to use the frequencies should affect whether carriers are permitted to hold them dormant.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9451 times:

I got your point precisely. But the reality is that AA DOES have frequencies that it can use right now. The only change in calculus is that AA likely WILL activate its route while US will not - but it was predicted a long time ago that US would never start its PEK route and there is no indication that it will happen. Given there are absolutely no leaks about acquiring an a/c that can reliably make PHL-PEK year round with an economically viable payload (and the 332 cannot), it is not likely the route will ever be started.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9317 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
For those who wish to jump in, DL/NW's SEA-PEK route is not in the same class as AA or US' unused routes because NW's authority was used for its CAN route.

They don't fly CAN anymore.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
and DTW or LAX both make sense.

Not likely. DL has more than enough China frequencies that it needs to digest first.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineVZLA787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9305 times:

It will all depend on whether they have a will to operate the route in the future. I do not see US acquiring the a/c anytime soon. I agree though, that if some carrier has a definite desire to operate this or a similar route, US, should start service, or give it up. In my mind, it's: Use it, or lose it!!

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9230 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
DL has more than enough China frequencies that it needs to digest first.

Didn't DL just cut ATL-PVG, and their going to go after more China frequencies?..



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9032 times:

Time for US to start looking for a lease on a 777 or A-340 starting in October 2010?

BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8863 times:



Quoting BP1 (Reply 12):
Time for US to start looking for a lease on a 777 or A-340 starting in October 2010?

I have serious doubts about the viability of Asian flights from Philadelphia even during relatively stable economic times, which unfortunately these are not.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8827 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
limited-use frequencies.

The thing that made me chuckle reading this was when that award was made, it seemed like EVERYONE who applied for China service got it.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7689 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8663 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):

Although DOT has indicated that the current request is premature and US Airways is welcome to apply for dormancy later, one can only help this becomes a trend of DOT denying airlines from hoarding limited-use frequencies.

ABSOLUTELY agree. The only thing I worry about is somebody like DL applying for everything that comes available and winning it all uncontested because everybody else is in such sick shape. That would be a worse outcome.


User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8596 times:

Can a US 767-200ER fly the route?

User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8506 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
I have serious doubts about the viability of Asian flights from Philadelphia even during relatively stable economic times, which unfortunately these are not.

I agree wholeheartedly. This was a dead end from day #1.


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1762 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8460 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
I have serious doubts about the viability of Asian flights from Philadelphia even during relatively stable economic times, which unfortunately these are not.

That brings up a different angle to this problem; can the DOT punish US for not flying a route that the DOT probably should have had the foresight not to award in the first place? The DOT can't be shocked that US isn't flying the route when they applied for a relatively weak route without even owning an aircraft for the mission.

Certainly changes in economy (and, by extension, travel patterns) can cause demand to unexpectedly dry up on many worldwide routes, and neither the airline nor DOT can really be faulted for that. However, who is really to blame for the current situation with US; US for applying to fly a route they can't fly, or DOT for awarding a route to a carrier that couldn't fly it when PHL-PEK probably had the lowest probability of success of all the requested routes?

Hopefully the end result of this will not only be DOT requiring airlines to actually utilize their route authorities in limited access markets, but also DOT realizing they need to be more careful/prudent in awarding route authorities.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8377 times:

In every thread about this people mention that US does not have aircraft that can fly to China. I encourage these people to check the US fleet more carefully. US would be able to fly the route next year with an existing fleet type, especially if they apply an upgrade package from the manufacturer. US's fleet is no longer an excuse for delays.

User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8332 times:

Exactly which ACFT do they have that can do the route with full payload?

User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1762 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8333 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
In every thread about this people mention that US does not have aircraft that can fly to China. I encourage these people to check the US fleet more carefully. US would be able to fly the route next year with an existing fleet type, especially if they apply an upgrade package from the manufacturer. US's fleet is no longer an excuse for delays.

I suppose the 332 could do the route, but it would probably be taking significant weight penalties at times in order to make the route non-stop reliably. Keep in mind that at 5,977 nm (great circle), PHL-PEK would become the longest 332 route in the world. It is 325 nm longer than the current holder of that title, LAX-AKL at 5,652 nm.


User currently offlineJOEYCAPPS From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 208 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8263 times:

I look at this as the equivilent (in some ways) as "Bob" going to Company A, and asking/begging for a job, getting a job, then only working when he feels like it.

If the DOT approves you a route, USE IT! If not, give up the rights to a carrier that will.

Just my two cents.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8223 times:



Quoting JOEYCAPPS (Reply 22):
If the DOT approves you a route, USE IT! If not, give up the rights to a carrier that will.

...and which carrier wants to start a China flight right now?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1762 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8031 times:



Quoting JOEYCAPPS (Reply 22):
I look at this as the equivilent (in some ways) as "Bob" going to Company A, and asking/begging for a job, getting a job, then only working when he feels like it.

If the DOT approves you a route, USE IT! If not, give up the rights to a carrier that will.

Just my two cents.

In reality, though, it's more like Bob (US Airways) went to get a gig as a pay-per-load truck driver hauling goods for Company A (DOT), which would typically require supplying your own semi-truck. Bob was up against several other competitors, most of which were more qualified and already had contracts hauling pay-per-load with Company A.

However, Company A decided to try Bob out for its new trucking needs in addition to their existing contractors even though they knew Bob didn't yet own a semi-truck (he said he'd buy a used Kenworth in his proposal). Then it turned out Bob didn't have the fiscal means to operate the truck taking into account his financing, insurance, maintenance, etc. After all, Bob was struggling just to stay afloat with his existing local freight hauling without having to shell out additional money and acquire new resources to fulfill the contract with Company A.

In that scenario, is it Bob's fault for applying to do a job he didn't even have the necessary vehicle to do yet? In part, yes it is. But isn't Company A also somewhat at fault for selecting Bob despite his obvious shortcomings? I would suggest they are. Now Company A is trying to send a message to everyone that they will be forced to haul goods once they are awarded a competitive contract, which is fair, but hopefully Company A will realize they should award their contracts more carefully in the future.


25 OP3000 : That, and given US is in *A, many passengers in places other than PHL would probably opt for partners UA (IAD, ORD), CO (EWR) or AC (YYZ) all of whic
26 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I dont think DL is doing well on its existing china services?? ATL was cut.. LAX has no chance of working DL has no feed there and has tried before D
27 STT757 : With CO joining Star there are many US customers in the Northern Philadelphia suburbs of Bucks and Montgomery Counties PA who are within a hours driv
28 LAXdude1023 : Gee, thats not hypocritical at all. I seem to recall a certain Atlanta based carrier that is going to be sitting on quite few China frequencies. Let
29 WorldTraveler : yeah, I get it. The route authority for SEA-PEK is the same authority that was used to fly CAN when it operated. No one said they were going after an
30 Cubsrule : Putting aside the aircraft availability issues for a moment, couldn't this argument be used to deny EVERY new entrant frequencies in every market? Qu
31 Airbazar : That all depend on whether they want a refueling stop or not, much like what we see on flights to Africa. I also suspect the A332 would have as much
32 MaverickM11 : CO
33 WorldTraveler : FL isn't ATL based. DL has operated EVERY route it has been awarded; it has requested and received authority to reduce some on a seasonal basis. If t
34 Cubsrule : But access to NRT is not unlimited (nor, for that matter, is access to GRU, which explains US' deep South America strategy). Sometimes, a carrier has
35 Azjubilee : Since NWA isn't flying SEA-PEK as planned, I wouldn't be surprised if they started NRT-CAN back up again. It's FAR cheaper to operate a 757 within Asi
36 MaverickM11 : Yeah no dice. DL also said half its recently canceled schedule was "seasonal". Doesn't mean anything until CO actual acts on the permission or DL bri
37 Jlbmedia : If US really put it's mind to it, how long would it take to get an A340 sitting on the ground in PHL ready to go? Are there any A340s even available?
38 MaverickM11 : Yes. They're like foreclosed homes in California.
39 Flighty : Exactly. We can add UA to that. For UA to switch IAD-PEK with NRT-PEK does not satisfy the rationale they used to win that PEK slot. US probably has
40 United1 : It actually does, UA is allowed to operate the flight via an intermediate point and they are still using all of their allocated frequencies to PEK/PV
41 MoMan : US is the weakest large domestic player with respect to routes and service and I find it amazing that they are trying to start this route. US has no
42 Flighty : Good question; sorry I don't know. Just trying to figure out US's plan along with everybody else. Like you say, US's eventual plan is to fly the A350
43 Cubsrule : Their strategy, both in Asia and South America, is to fly the routes they can get. They tried for CLT-BOG, but lost. They tried for CLT-GIG and won,
44 WorldTraveler : It iseasier to get access to NRT than to GIG or GRU. DL and NW have both been long interested in developing smaller secondary markets in Asia. The NR
45 Cubsrule : ...although that's really not the relevant comparison. The right comparison is between NRT and PEK.
46 Yellowtail : Forgive me but what airlien operates this with a 332? Careful...WT is going to get mad when you mention those letters Yes, some for as little as 6 ro
47 Cws818 : QF has done it on occasion.
48 Airbazar : True but what are their costs compared with the other carriers? I'd bet US crews are not as expensive as DL's or AA's and they operate predominantely
49 SHUPirate1 : Actually, it does. Capital-to-Capital. NRT is a capital too, remember?
50 Flighty : Hahaha. The US government probably thought they were going to connect the American capital to PEK, not provide the Japanese capital with a new connec
51 WorldTraveler : DL and NW have the lowest system costs based on DOT data among the US network carriers. US does not have a cost advantage despite having a revenue di
52 MaverickM11 : Like CAN?
53 Flyboy1108 : IIRC the only twin allowed to fly the polar routes as of now is the T7. I could be wrong, but what I gathered is you need an ETOPS 180 to fly these,
54 AirframeAS : IMO, US should have had the airplane before being awarded the route. They didn't have the airplane, why should they have the route? I am pretty sure,
55 Flighty : What other U.S. airlines? What PEK route would be started? Would American start Chicago? Did you know that AA already had permission this year but th
56 OA412 : Last I checked, DL/NW do continue to serve some secondary cities in Asia but I suppose it's more fun to constantly find something to criticize about
57 Airbazar : I was talking about TATL costs. We know DL has lower system costs due to their super hub in ATL and domestic network, but if we isolate only TATL tra
58 FUN2FLY : The only fair and equitable thing for the government to do is to open up route bids again. The current awards were in a different world. NW and DL now
59 STT757 : CO is operating both EWR-PEK and EWR-PVG at full daily service levels.
60 Aviationbuff08 : Well US is a domestic bottom feeder, so their international flights I would expect to be the same.
61 Hardiwv : I can sense US applying for dormancy in GIG... Rgs,
62 Post contains links AA777223 : According to Boeing's range chart, here: http://boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_rc_newyork.html The 762 would be more capable, albeit only sligh
63 IliriBDL : Not going to happen unless the economy gets worse form this point on. Here's what US said in the communication with employees. (US Daily)
64 MaverickM11 : Other than the recently added SGN, which can't carry local traffic, there's one secondary city. Otherwise all the others have nonstop service to the
65 MAH4546 : That is the rumor. Advance bookings are horrific.
66 SHUPirate1 : What's the point then in the DOT granting dormancy? For the US to renew dormancy indefinitely, as one airline after another petitions for it to be de
67 AF086 : US ain't making it any easier by simply not advertising at all the new flight in Brazil and among brazilian travel agents. Also the "*subject to fore
68 AirframeAS : Yes, they have the plane for it on the property while US does not. No. Could you explain why, if that is truly the case? I would and I just did. You
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