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Why Are So Many Planes Falling Out Of The Sky?  
User currently offlinePlanesailing From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 815 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11117 times:

The following article was published in today's Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...veals-terrifying-common-flaw-.html

It felt to me like a piece of sensationalistic journalism, obtaining quotes from parties willing to add to it.

Is there any truth in the article though that training for automated systems is resulting in less trained pilots?

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11081 times:

Its the Daily Mail, its loves this kind of over sensationalized stuff.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13047 posts, RR: 78
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11074 times:

Must you quote, from of all rags, the Daily Mail?
They write stuff to induce fear, to get you to hate someone or something, (as a former editor admitted).

At least this time they bothered to ask someone like Learmount, way under the banner headlines in the printed edition no doubt.
He raises some legitimate concerns, but there will be far more balanced and knowledgeable sources on say Flight Global addressing these issues.
You'll get better answers or discussion there or somewhere similar.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4265 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 10990 times:

The article isn't that bad, I expected worse when I saw it's from the Daily Mail.
The four most high profile accidents this year (Bufallo Q400, TK 738, AF 332, IY 313) all have in common that the pilots lost control of the plane while hardware like engines and flaps were (probably) working, I think it's good that issues like these are discussed widely.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10912 times:

The article is pretty good, actually. Fair and balanced Big grin

User currently offlineHantsflyer27 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10764 times:

I must admit, it was a relatively decent article and had a good balance. I was preparing for the worst when i saw it was from the Daily Mail.

HF


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10735 times:

I know I'll get punted for this but one of the industry's dirty secrets is the correlation between airlines in bad financial state and an increase in accidents. I'm not necessarily suggesting that airlines somehow skip on training or maintenace or that employees do a worse job during those times. I'm just saying that the numbers indicate that when things are bad financially, more accidents happen. The reason why is open to speculation. I don't personally believe that a maintenance worker or a pilot intentionally slack off during those times.

User currently offlineIH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1140 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10584 times:

Well, the obvious piece of reasoning that we should adopt is this:

Planes are falling out of the sky;
therefore,
To stop them falling out of the sky, all we need to do is stop them being in the sky.

Flying is never going to have a 100% safety record. I disagree that it's a decent article, because whereas we might take it with a grain of salt knowing what we do - hopefully here we can put it in its proper context - the tone in which it is written would seem quite scary to the lay-person. The title says enough.



Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10523 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 6):
I'm just saying that the numbers indicate that when things are bad financially, more accidents happen. The reason why is open to speculation. I don't personally believe that a maintenance worker or a pilot intentionally slack off during those times.

When times are hard and people are worrying about their personal finances and job security, it's hard to stay focused. Lack of focus and failure pay attention to little details, in an industry such as the airline industry, can well lead to incidents (at the least) and accidents (at the worst).



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10419 times:



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
The four most high profile accidents this year (Bufallo Q400, TK 738, AF 332, IY 313) all have in common that the pilots lost control of the plane while hardware like engines and flaps were (probably) working, I think it's good that issues like these are discussed widely.

My opinion is that all these accidents have in common that pilot error is looked at as major factor. The machine is built in a certain way, pilots are trained to follow procedures and know the machine. The machine is not built to perfection as the TK B738 accident shows us.

The philosophy has been used extensively since 2 decades, so I don't see why it should start failling suddenly now.

It all comes down to statistics, but where 4 aircraft have been totally destroyed, capt. Sully saves the day with his succesful ditching and a similar event that happened to a Ryanair B738 in Ciampino past November. 2009 is not a particularily horrible year, I'd say that it is average.

Are aircraft less safe than they were 10, 20 or 40 years ago?
I don't think so.

My advice to the pilots and most especially captains of the whole world is this:
While cruising at FL350, instead of waisting time reading newspapers or watching movies, open your FCOM/AOM and read it until you are sure you know it all, and once you know it all, talk about it as much as you can with the F/O, ask him questions, etc...
That way, when it happens to you, and there's a big chance that all holes of the Swiss Cheese align at least once in your career, you will be prepared. Your job is to close as many holes as you can, in the end that might save your life once and as a bargain, that of hundreds of people who you may not know or care about, but who would be very thankful to you for the rest of their lives.

Sully's succesful ditching is a result of continuous reflection, meditation and fast, precise decision-making resulting from extensive prepardness. His good prepardness resulted in excellent situational awreness and the ability to immediately consider the Hudson as a viable alternative, with primary goal to reduce collaterals and secundarily increase crash survivability.
Yet, he did not immediately think about pushing the Airbus ditching switch, which he would have had all the time to meditate about during his 19000 hours on the type, with the ditching checklist becoming more of a reflex list than a memory list.
Don't get me wrong, Sully is a hero and he achieved alot more than an average pilot would have achieved in the same circumstances, but that average pilot is a very lazy, easily self-satisfied, complacent individual.

Reducing human error, most importantly pilot error and enhancing aircraft knowledge will be an important focal point if the industry is to make significant progress in safety records.

An unprepared pilot will take alot of time to realise what is happening to him, to react with shaking and sweating hands while not being sure he is doing it right. A prepared pilot may even smile when facing a situation he was prepared for, will face the situation with more confidence than fear.

Finally, aircraft are the safest means of mass-transportation.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10360 times:

My only criticism of the article is that it suggests somehow that air crashes are a very recent phonomenon. There have been aircrashes as long as there have been planes.

I'm not sure we can include the CO severe turbulence incident among the endangered flight list.


User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9815 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 10):
My only criticism of the article is that it suggests somehow that air crashes are a very recent phonomenon. There have been aircrashes as long as there have been planes.

Really? Para 22 refers to the fact that as recently as the 1960's you were 10x more likely to be involved in a srious avaition incident than now. (we have come a long way in the last 50 years)


User currently offlineFlyin5glow From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7404 times:

Listen its all BS. News organizations love to report on aircraft accidents because it draws more audience. In reality I believe that airplanes are not falling out of the sky more often than in the past, if anything they are falling out less. It happens that the world is more interconnected thanks to the advances in information technology, so we can hear from an accident in Africa within minutes from happening as opposed to fifty years ago. Needless to say, flying is the safest method of transportation around.
Finally, I may add that all of this over reporting of airplane accidents may well be a conspiracy of those who favor traveling my train, and that look forward to see rail lines expanding. But that is just my speculation, for which I have no proof whatsoever.

flyin5glow  airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane   airplane 



Go Huskies
User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1011 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6761 times:
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Quoting NCB (Reply 9):
Sully's successful ditching is a result of continuous reflection, meditation and fast, precise decision-making resulting from extensive preparedness.

Sully is an old school pilot who knows how to fly an aircraft if the aircraft can't fly itself.
He is a former military pilot and was taught how to think for himself and how to fly an aircraft.
Too many new pilots do not have that skill.  old 


User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

On a side note, there has to be something in the air around the JFK-ACK zone. Too many incidents and crashes. I often thought, well, it is due to the amount of traffic in the area, but now I think it is hexed. 9/11, TWA 800, Swissair 111, Egyptair, JFK, Yankees guy, US A320, thing the other day, list goes on.

User currently offlineZippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5416 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6441 times:

Isn't the Daily Mail the UK version of the Enquirer? I guess they got tired of Michael Jackson all the time on every page. And, how many times can you rehash the same tales of this or that slutty celebrity showing trim?  bouncy 


I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13047 posts, RR: 78
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5908 times:

Not so much the Enquirer Zippy, rather a nasty, fear mongering rag that presents itself as some voice for the dispossessed middle class of Middle England.

No fixed agenda as such, certainly not consistent, witness a year ago they were giving away those new style environmentally friendly light bulbs, less than 12 months later decrying them as some kind of EU plot to deprive the stout Yeoman of England their rightful source of traditional light generation.

Nasty in that they are far keener on smearing those who have less recourse to fund libel actions, they also have a serious problem with successful women.
Unlike others, the editor, Paul Dacre, very rarely defends his paper's stance, well bullies are essentially cowards they say.

Essentially a right wing paper, but the editor is on speaking terms with Gordon Brown and it does not seem that keen on Conservative leader David Cameron.

But it's really all about fear mongering, they certainty hate BA, as an employee I see that as almost a badge of honour.
If they decided to like us it wouldn't last long anyway.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2758 posts, RR: 45
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5705 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 9):
My advice to the pilots and most especially captains of the whole world is this:
While cruising at FL350, instead of waisting time reading newspapers or watching movies, open your FCOM/AOM and read it until you are sure you know it all, and once you know it all, talk about it as much as you can with the F/O, ask him questions, etc...

Thanks for your advice; we know how to run our cockpits without help from management, thank you very much. When something needs reviewing, we review it. A 12 hour ocean crossing makes for a very long oral exam, and an increasingly annoyed crew.

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 13):
Sully is an old school pilot who knows how to fly an aircraft if the aircraft can't fly itself.
He is a former military pilot and was taught how to think for himself and how to fly an aircraft.
Too many new pilots do not have that skill.

Where is your evidence that "too many pilots do not have that skill"? I know you are a retired mechanic, do you have insight into pilot training issues that we don't? Any statistically valid defense of your position is welcome.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7348 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5640 times:



Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 13):
Sully is an old school pilot who knows how to fly an aircraft if the aircraft can't fly itself.
He is a former military pilot and was taught how to think for himself and how to fly an aircraft.
Too many new pilots do not have that skill.

You do understand that Scully's skill at handling the plane was not the major factor in the survival of the flight.

Scully saved the flight while the co-pilot was still flying the plane with his decision making, not his flying. A big part was his analysis of the engine situation and the chances of a restart.

If he had not made the mental calculations and realized his only options was to aim for the river within the first few seconds, his flying skills would only have been to give him a choice as to which building he put the cockpit into.

Pilots flying skills are important, but captains decision making skills are what is hopefully the difference between a great pilot and a smoking hole in the ground.

That is based on 20 years of watching the US military train pilots.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7348 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5629 times:



Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
Is there any truth in the article though that training for automated systems is resulting in less trained pilots?

Since the military services are the leaders in training people for automated systems, and increasingly seek automated systems for their aircraft - I would say no.


User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5600 times:



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
Thanks for your advice; we know how to run our cockpits without help from management, thank you very much. When something needs reviewing, we review it. A 12 hour ocean crossing makes for a very long oral exam, and an increasingly annoyed crew.

You're very welcome, and it's an advise as a former manager of cockpits.  Wink
12 hour flights are the best way to review so many interesting and important aspects considering that you don't fly with the same crew all the time. F/O's need to learn a little bit from many different captains, that is the only way they can learn to become one.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3396 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

Well, seriously, this IS a bad year for aviation. I guess its just bad luck, but this year is really bad.

User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7348 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

I don't think this is a BAD year for aviation. It appears so far to be about normal, maybe a little worse, but not much.

However, we have had some really good years recently, which may make normal look very bad in comparison.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5265 times:



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 21):
Well, seriously, this IS a bad year for aviation. I guess its just bad luck, but this year is really bad.

This year is fairly normal. The last three were abnormally good, which is why this year looks bad.

Keep in mind that, with traffic growth, the frequency of hull loses will go up even if the accident rate stays constant.

Tom.


User currently offlineSwivelHeadLAX From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4983 times:

After being involved in aviation in one form or another for the last 14 years, I've found that almost all aircraft fall out of the sky eventually. In 100% of the cases, it's been due to an anomaly called "gravity".

Hey, it's another Monday on this beautiful planet...relax and smile  Smile


25 N623JB : Is the Airbus A320 a safe aircraft to travel on? How does it behave when having turbulence? Its just that im Jetting to California next week and am ne
26 Tdscanuck : Yes. About the same as a 737...possibly a little better. The recent incidents haven't changed the risk of your particular flight in any way. It's jus
27 Burkhard : The article is OK, I think, and does not fit to the title at all, because it clearly states that flying is safer than ever today.
28 N623JB : Thank You for the info on the A320.
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