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Another Trapped On A Plane Horror Story: CO 2816  
User currently offlinePremoBrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 425 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 25240 times:

http://www.startribune.com/local/eas...DUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUT

I don't understand why people are still putting up with airlines doing this. They wouldn't have been able to get screened until the next morning anyway, so they should have been let off. This is the time for passengers to pull out their cameras and threaten YouTube!


Now You're Flying Smart.
170 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 24978 times:

I just read the story too. Surprised nobody else has commented.

It's because of things like this that I absolutely hate flying these days.

I've not been "trapped" to this extreme, but I have been on many a flight from Miami to NYC where the total time on the plane has exceeded 6 hours.... for a flight that is supposed to take just 2 1/2 hours.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7228 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 24871 times:

Pax are going to have to stand up for themselves, the Congress is now into Health Care or whatever the new political football is to be kicked around.

1. Demand to know if your flight is operated by a third party, must be shown on the ticket
2. Demand to get off the a/c even if there are no screeners to put you back on, let the a/c leave without you then attempt to get compensation using the so called pax bill of rights
3. Zero tolerance for poor treatment, switch airline, no one is doing anyone any favours in this life.

Those 3 are a start, any more?


User currently offlineHuxrules From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 24787 times:

I think at about 4 hours I would just pull the wing exit and let myself out. Screw it if they throw you in jail.

User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 24739 times:

From a customer service point of view... lets say 50 passengers (assuming the flight is full)... put them each in a hotel room until the new crew got there in the morning... lets say each hotel room is $100 (likely for something in Rochester)... thats $5000... pretty sure thats not that much money for an airline as big as ExpressJet or Continental. and considering how many future customers have been probably lost as a result of this, would probably have been cheaper to get the hotel rooms. Its not like delays like this are a frequent occurance... a dozen events like this per year would still be a drop in the bucket for any airline.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7228 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 24736 times:



Quoting Huxrules (Reply 3):
I think at about 4 hours I would just pull the wing exit and let myself out. Screw it if they throw you in jail

I'll ad that as number 4 if you don't mind.

4. Evacuate yourself if the airline won't, call the police on exit for false imprisonment.


User currently offlineGxman From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 24657 times:

The excuses from ExpressJet don't make any sense. Why would the passengers need to be rescreened if they stay within the sterile area?

I hope the passengers call their senators or representatives. Nothing like a congressional investigation to get the attention of airline executives.

Even though it is ExpressJet, I would hope that Continental would offer some sort of compensation to the passengers, then slap some decision makers at ExpressJet.



Steve
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 24525 times:



Quoting Gxman (Reply 6):
The excuses from ExpressJet don't make any sense.

And regulations don't prevent you from deplaning. Happens all the time.

XJet is just wrong, here. I could not imagine sitting in an RJ for that many hours. The seats, lavs, etc. were not designed for it.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineB595 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2009, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 24390 times:

So which part of the flight crew stayed with the passengers overnight? Was it all the crew (captain,fo,flight attendant) or just the flight attendant? Did the captain and fo wash their hands of the problem and head off to a hotel while the flight attendant and passengers were locked on the plane?

User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22966 times:

Wow, I hope this never happens to me. Common sense dictates that people should be allowed to at least leave the aircraft and go to the terminal. (Hotels would obviously be preferable.) However if I were on the flight in question the fear of incarceration or federal charges would probably be enough to make me stay in my seat and put up with the abuse. A pretty sad state of affairs really. Possibly since one of the trapped passengers was a law professor ExpressJet might regret this in the end. Time will tell I guess.


Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22726 times:



Quoting Gxman (Reply 6):
The excuses from ExpressJet don't make any sense. Why would the passengers need to be rescreened if they stay within the sterile area?

The article just says "the screeners had left for the day", and I'm interpreting that as meaning the security checkpoint was closed and all the TSA staff had gone home - if the checkpoint doesn't have a physical barrier that could be closed to prevent passengers from leaving the sterile area and there's no TSA staff on hand to prevent the passengers from wandering out of the sterile area, then there's (from the TSA perspective) a security problem.

This crap simply has to stop, or the airline industry is going to face a "Bill of Rights" scenario that will make their business more difficult to run. The industry, TSA, FAA, etc. need to sit down and come up with some realistic procedures to allow for one-off exceptions to procedure to allow for situations like this. It is simply not realistic to expect people to just sit on aircraft for outrageous amounts of time with no food, water (although the article didn't specifically mention food or water issues, so perhaps there was some accommodation there in this specific case), or properly serviced lavatories.

In this case, the easiest answer would have been that once it was obvious that the crew was going to time out and that it would take an unreasonable amount of time to get another crew there, for ExpressJet to just let the passengers off to sleep in the terminal or go to hotels and just accept that the plane wouldn't be leaving until the next day when TSA came back in. Yes, this puts an aircraft out of position for the next day - tough. Suck it up and deal. The "let the passengers suffer" attitude is just unacceptable. And I'll lay you odds that no jury in the United States would convict passengers who, at the 5 or 6 hour mark, just popped the door and left.

I'm also a little disappointed with CO's response - OK, it's an "ExpressJet" plane. But the passengers bought CO-coded tickets, and likely the vast majority were purchased through Continental.com - from the customer's perspective it's a Continental flight. The fact that CO bought lift from ExpressJet is irrelevant.


User currently offlineNbgskygod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 816 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22637 times:

the reason that the passengers could not be let back into the terminal is that the steril area was not large enough to to accomidate the passengers. At my airport the steril area is only about the size of an average conference room. its ment for the passengers to be screened and head right to the plane.

CO and Express Jet will need to be held accountable for this incident. I agree there needs to be some rules that allow for exceptions, such as this to accomiate the passengers and crew and aovide "hostage" situations, when diversions happen to out of the way facilities.



"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22604 times:



Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 10):
The article just says "the screeners had left for the day", and I'm interpreting that as meaning the security checkpoint was closed and all the TSA staff had gone home - if the checkpoint doesn't have a physical barrier that could be closed to prevent passengers from leaving the sterile area and there's no TSA staff on hand to prevent the passengers from wandering out of the sterile area, then there's (from the TSA perspective) a security problem.

So, I'd rather be rescreened in the morning than sit on the plane all night. What's the big deal?

And the FAA should outlaw diversions to closed airports for W/X unless it's an absolute emergency situation.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineXXXX10 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 777 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22571 times:

Just light a cigarette, they'll soon have you off of that plane.

If they call the cops they might intervene and force the airline to 'release the passengers'


User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 22437 times:
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Why would they have required screening again?

I was on an ASA flight the diverted on Tuesday morning due to weather in Louisville, KY.
The captain had a plan from the beginning and said that if we were on the ground more then 20 minutes - he was letting us off. We deplaned into the secure area, and 2 hours later we re boarded and departed for Louisville.

Excellent job by ASA and their crew!


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 22433 times:

I guess I like to have so more detailed information before I point fingers at anyone. Clearly is was another bad situation, but there's no clear blame at this point.

User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 22369 times:

In the EU we have the passengers charter of rights which allows compensation and this puts off airliners from doing these kinds of things...

User currently offlineUSFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 22372 times:



Quoting 7673mech (Reply 14):
Why would they have required screening again?

I was on an ASA flight the diverted on Tuesday morning due to weather in Louisville, KY.
The captain had a plan from the beginning and said that if we were on the ground more then 20 minutes - he was letting us off. We deplaned into the secure area, and 2 hours later we re boarded and departed for Louisville.

Excellent job by ASA and their crew!

I think the TSA excuse is BS. I think it was more of a function of RST having no CO staff and ExpressJet not wanting to pay NW or AA to take care of their pax.


User currently offlineJamotcx From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1037 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 22190 times:

Its very simple! "I am too scared to be on the plane" and fake a panic attack...

User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 22136 times:



Quoting Huxrules (Reply 3):
I think at about 4 hours I would just pull the wing exit and let myself out

I'm not one to advocate anything illegal, but I agree that it's time for pax to stand up and put a stop to this nonsense. If going out the emergency exit it what it takes then pax should do it - but en masse - everybody should bail out. In doing so they will make a gigantic statement that will be heard all the way to DC. The FBI will probably detain everyone for a while, but they can't arrest everyone.

This won't stop without pax making it stop.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineGolftango From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 22001 times:

BS! I'd have the exit open. I'd like to see them try and stop me. I'd be the unsung hero of 2816. I'd take a tasing and a night in jail for that.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 21854 times:



Quoting Jamotcx (Reply 18):
Its very simple! "I am too scared to be on the plane" and fake a panic attack...

Absolutely what I was thinking. Actually, after a few hours, I'm sure I could coerce my mind into have a real panic attack.

I remember being "stuck" at TPA due to thunderstorms. They close the ramp when lightning is close, because too many rampers were getting struck by it.

So, we had to wait 10 minutes, then they were able to deplane us, but then close the ramp again just as an Expressjet was arriving, It had to hold on the taxiway just short of the gate for 1.5 hours while lightning struck all around the airport. I was watching from the terminal, as I had nothing better to do because my luggage was still stranded on our plane.

Finally they got the ramp back open took our bags off and got those poor people off the ERJ. Can't imagine how frustrating that was for them, but multiply it by 10 for the people stuck overnight.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 21735 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
So, I'd rather be rescreened in the morning than sit on the plane all night. What's the big deal?

I completely agree with you, as I went on to say...some airlines are just too willing to let passengers suffer so they don't have a plane out of position the next morning.

Of course, we could also say that in cases like this that, presuming the local weather isn't that extreme at the time, the TSA staff could simply be required to come back to the airport and process the passengers. Or that if the local TSA has left for the day, the airport police are authorized to keep the passengers in the secure area.

Quoting WAC (Reply 16):
In the EU we have the passengers charter of rights which allows compensation and this puts off airliners from doing these kinds of things...

True, but if you look at the history of these extreme "trapped on airplane" incidents, while the most famous/infamous (the NW meltdown at DTW a few years ago and B6's "St Valentine's Day Massacre" at JFK in 2007) were due to snowstorms, thunderstorms are a more common cause, and we have more extreme thunderstorms in North America than you do in Europe.

That said, the EU regulations probably do prevent a lot of these incidents by making airlines more conservative in their decision-making, but I wouldn't be surprised if this also results in a higher cancellation rate...anyone have figures on this?


User currently offlineBrandonfs88 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 21663 times:



Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 17):
I think the TSA excuse is BS. I think it was more of a function of RST having no CO staff and ExpressJet not wanting to pay NW or AA to take care of their pax.

I think thats a big part of it or the fact it's not there plane, so they don't touch it, and quite honestly why should NW and AA staff get yelled by pissed off pax ( which i can understand why there pissed) for something they have no control over and it's not even there airline!


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 21640 times:



Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 22):
Of course, we could also say that in cases like this that, presuming the local weather isn't that extreme at the time, the TSA staff could simply be required to come back to the airport and process the passengers. Or that if the local TSA has left for the day, the airport police are authorized to keep the passengers in the secure area.

All of these are government employees. Their unions do not allow them to be "required" to work overtime in this fashion, nor would the agencies have the money to pay them.

But the airport should not be allowed to operate in any fashion without proper security available. Again, unless it's a true emergency, no plane should be allowed to divert to an airport that is "closed" in this fashion.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Meister808 : Yet again, the Pilot in Command is the sole authority for the outcome of the flight... once the door is closed, it is up to the PIC (captain in this c
26 Us330 : To my chagrin (because, in general, I don't think the govt. should get involved in this mess), the airlines are doing nothing to change certain indus
27 SkyguyB727 : AFAIK, TSA staff are still non-union. There was talk of them unionizing, but I don't think anything has come of that yet.
28 OPNLguy : Pardon, but I think your take on the FARs is a tad off...
29 Slider : Majors already have to disclose who the operating carrier is. There are several contributory factors to this event certainly (based on the info prese
30 ExFATboy : If they are unionized, why would our government sign a contract that didn't allow for mandatory overtime in emergencies? They don't like it, they can
31 IAHFLYR : If you believe what the article mentions those TSA folks had gone home for the night. That indicates to me the possibility of passengers being able t
32 Lincoln : I haven't really investigated it, but what could the charge be, anyway? Failure to observe a crewmember's instructions? Isn't that just a slap-on-the
33 Captain_777 : The best thing to do here would have been to bus the passengers from Rochester to Minneapolis. It is not far at all. I know it said in the article it
34 DeltaGuy767 : The ground transport option wouldn't have been the way to go. It's a thousand miles between ROC and MSP so about 16 hours if my math is right, and no
35 PremoBrimo : Remember everyone...we are talking about Rochester, MN here. RST. It is under 90 miles between the two airports. A chartered bus could have EASILY bee
36 Gxman : I think it diverted to RST (Rochester, MN) not ROC. I think it is about 70 miles.
37 Smcmac32msn : That is the lowest excuse ever. No matter how "small" the sterile area is, its still bigger than the inside of an ERJ. It still has clean toilets. It
38 DeltaGuy767 : Sorry I thought is was Rochester, NY. Well that makes MUCH more sense about busing. Certainly should have been done if it is indeed only 90 miles or s
39 KaiGywer : Mesaba didn't send any ERJs anywhere...
40 DocLightning : Yes, but you're Socialists, so we can't do that here. No, really. That's the reason that's been given ON THIS BOARD. With the current legal structure
41 PWMRamper : I'm wondering why TSA's "gone home for the night." At my airport, which I'm SURE is not out of the norm, there are TSA on the clock 24/7/365. Sure, th
42 ADent : They could have pulled an United Express - dump the passengers and fly the empty plane away later. They did that a couple of years ago at Cheyenne, WY
43 ULMFlyer : Wow. I tried to find more info about this, but the Houston Chronicle just reprinted the same story posted by the OP. There must be more out there. Aft
44 Post contains links LoneStarMike : More fuel for the fire: FlightAware shows a NW A320 arrived at RST at 11:56 p.m. that night. The COEX flight arrived at 12:21 a.m. One of the stories
45 Dragon6172 : Apparently the captain was a woman, scrotal resove not an option. One would hope that good common sense and the ability to make a command decision wo
46 CrimsonNL : Wow I'm glad I wasn't on that plane! I flew the ERJ once, its a nice plane but as mentioned before it's not designed for such long sits. I wonder how
47 Par13del : Maybe that could be put in the bill of rights as an option, pass the cost to either the airline - more fuel carried for diversions - or the airports
48 MSYPI7185 : Unless I have missed something big time TSA are not Unionized employees. MD
49 LTBEWR : I bet if some high level politican was on that a/c they and probably the rest of the pax would have been allowed to leave the a/c into a secure area o
50 BlueFlyer : What infuriates me the most in this story, which is regrettably familiar and not at all unexpected nowadays, is CO's attitude. Refusing to step up and
51 ImperialEagle : Just declare a "medical emergency". Tell them you are sick and must get medical attention. Facing that kind of liability issue they will have to let y
52 Post contains links Contrails : Express Jet has apologized to pax: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/08/...ped-passengers/UPI-95231249910855/ Not much of an apology, imo.
53 Gxman : Just read the latest article. Where is RST's general manger. I'd like to hear from him/her as to why ground services wouldn't let the passengers depla
54 Bcoz : Not much? I'd say zero. With the exception of the "ExpressJet Airlines says its sorry," that UPI story is no different than the Star-Tribune story th
55 JTNWAFSD : I hope this make sence here it goes. People the main reason and the only reason that this happened is this . You DO NOT divert into a station you DO N
56 Dragon6172 : No worries about that ever happening, congress is buying themselves some new G-V's so they will not have to deal with this kind of non-sense.
57 Tymnbalewne : What does "screening" have to do with this anyway? The passengers were screened at their origin point so would be fine to meander around a sterile are
58 Nitepilot79 : Bro, I get short of breath sitting in my living room just thinking being stuck like that. I probably wouldn't have to put too much effort into an "Os
59 MaverickM11 : It is the TSA, and their ignorance is unknowable, but it wouldn't surprise me that there is a rule that if passengers are in the sterile area, either
60 DocLightning : See? This is why we don't have a Bill of Rights. Because it's somehow anticapitalist to mandate that businesses don't commit crimes against their cus
61 GXMan : Airlines divert to airports where they have no station all of the time. Passengers don't normally sit in planes overnight on the ground. I can't reca
62 NIKV69 : From the sounds of it a better alternative. Will you please cease with the political propaganda bombs please. This is not like regulations against re
63 Slider : Well, she was still testicularly challenged, shall we say. Either way, gender isn’t an issue…it’s the lack of command authority and a spineless
64 OPNLguy : When did it move from Stockholm?
65 Aerodog : Another option might have been to taxi to a General Aviation FBO and de-plane the passengers. Signature is open 24/7.
66 MSPNWA : I believe there was one big hurdle that's now been mentioned in other articles. The terminal appears to have been closed, which would jive with the s
67 Slider : Sweet! Someone got the "Die Hard" reference!!!
68 Bcoz : I believe the comment on the Star-Tribune's story from the passenger on the flight indicates that a NW aircraft was in a similar situation around the
69 Post contains links LoneStarMike : He's quoted in this article from The Post-Bulletin LoneStarMike
70 Pliersinsight : If I was on that plane with my two kids, ages 2 and 6 mos, I think I would lead a revolt to deplane, assuming all attempts to diplomatically resolve
71 Post contains links Khobar : Ooooo, gross. Are there any exceptions such as for weather or other issues beyond the airlines' control? Something like "extraordinary circumstances"
72 BOACVC10 : Is there any possibility that the affected passengers could band together and bring a class action suit against the parties (airlines, ground staff, a
73 Ken777 : I would be far less tolerant than the passengers who suffered through this mess. There would have been a flip of the coin to see if I called CNN or or
74 BOACVC10 : I would like to encourage our a.netters to investigate: WHO actually prevented the passengers from exiting the aircraft ? Not TSA, Not ground staff,
75 Dragon6172 : This place was only 70-80 miles from the final destination? I wonder how many had friends/family make the drive to the Rochester airport, only to wait
76 NIKV69 : A A320 is one thing but a RJ like this filled for 9 hours? I would have never made it. Crying babies to boot? My lord I can't think of anything worse
77 LoneStarMike : Keep in mind this plane didn't land at RST until 12:30 a.m. or so. CNN re-runs 360 with Anderson Cooper and Larry King Live from earlier in the eveni
78 NIKV69 : True but I bet those people on the plane thought it was a major story. I bet CNN or FOX could have made that work. I mean think of it. Live camera sh
79 Slider : No, I was serious. Although I deliberately made the Die Hard Helsinki reference… I wouldn’t compare the plight of actual hostages to this per se,
80 413x3 : a doctor who moonlights as a lawyer?
81 Richierich : No matter how bad the circumstances, taking matters into your own hands and oepning the door or hatch is NEVER a good idea when there is no emergency.
82 Junction : The passenger bill of rights would certainly put government policy on paper, but do you really think its going to keep this sort of thing from happeni
83 Max999 : Can anyone confirmed whether the crew stayed with the plane when their hours expired OR they just left? It's ambiguous in the article whether they st
84 Post contains links PremoBrimo : The airport manager has now come forward and told his side of the story, which is very telling. http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmana...s/localnews_sto
85 Junction : CO already has policy in place to keep this from happening. Nobody is going to choose to behave this way - you either have smart people on the job or
86 NIKV69 : Strong words buddy, I have flown that plane and it's a cigar tube. Full of people, no air or vents going. Screaming kids and one toilet that can't ha
87 WNBob : "Bill of Right." I'd be for it, except in this case, it's actually a case of TOO MUCH REGULATION. I know how airlines work. Everybody cite some "rules
88 Jolau1701 : Or they could write songs. Why should UA get nasty songs written about them? I flew Continental Airlines on my way to Minnesota, The plane departed,
89 Richierich : I'm not trying to pick on anybody here but I stand by what I said. I am well aware of what it is like to be in an aircraft, and a regional jet at tha
90 DocLightning : No. It's a case of people not looking for a way to get those people off the plane. It was neglect, pure and simple. The regulations, as have been poi
91 WNBob : You are right, I digress. I meant to say TOO MUCH WORK RULES. Because of the bad economy, HQ probly had a memo out that says, No Overtime! Airlines'
92 Mir : Might be the real reason that they couldn't go into the sterile area, but even so, they still should have been allowed into the non-sterile area. So
93 Lincoln : It comes down to self preservation. Ultimately, if I'm uncomfortable enough after I've tried the "proper channels" (and note that I said in my earlie
94 Mir : Probably interfering with a flight crew, which is a felony. Not saying whether it's just or not, but that is most likely what they'd try to hit you w
95 IAHFLYR : Bravo....and I hope providing positive space First Class/Business First tickets valid for a year from date of issue for all passengers to enjoy. Much
96 DocLightning : Oh, they'll have to do a lot better than that if they don't want to get sued. You saw what US did after their plane went in the drink and that wasn't
97 Kalvado : Just assuming emergency exit is opened and everyone is out - what's next? It's likely around 2 am, and someone escorts pax outside of sterile area. I
98 Mir : You're not cooped up in an ERJ all night. That counts for something. -Mir
99 Kalvado : Sleeping on a pavement isn't way better..
100 Mir : At least you can lie down on pavement. -Mir
101 Lincoln : So I have no plans to ever do this, and I'm speaking entirely theroretically, am not a lawyer, and haven't searched case law...but because I find it a
102 Bcoz : Lincoln sort of answered this as I was writing.... but.... Just throwing this out here for discussion... In terms of being charged a felony (or even a
103 Spacecadet : Let me guess: you don't have kids. There were babies on this flight. How long would you expect a baby to go with no food and no working toilet? This
104 PITingres : And I'd say that you Doc are an "easy lay". I'd hold out for 10 grand, myself. I have all sorts of sympathy for airline difficulties, and all sorts o
105 DocLightning : I agree. But the incorrect gesture to take in this situation is to defend the action. CO should have immediately apologized to the public and plead n
106 Smcmac32msn : The airport was OPEN. Somebody, anybody, was there 24/7... Ops, LEOs, other airline workers, somebody to lead them out of the sterile ramp area.
107 BPS3458 : I can't believe what it must have been like on that air craft. Was the flight crew on board the entire time locked up in the flight deck ? I have abso
108 EA CO AS : This is already a DOT requirement. It must also be advised by airline personnel, signage, etc. On to the matter at hand - Expressjet did a horrible j
109 Jolau1701 : Why couldn't they just deplane, leave the sterile area, and if they haven't been picked up by someone yet, they can go through TSA screening the next
110 Maverick623 : When does a "bad circumstance" transition to an "emergency"? When a person is in immediate danger of life or limb. Simply being on an airplane for 4+
111 N49WA : I see a few, but not many, comments regarding the Captain. Am I correct in thinking that the Captain IS IN CHARGE of the flight and he/she has the fin
112 Dragon6172 : Does the ERJ even have slides? The damn thing is what, three feet off the ground? My guess is yes. I think if they had opened the plane and allowed t
113 Manta : If it was that late at night / early in the morning and they were coming up from IAH, knowing that MSP was closed due to wx, why wouldn't they just di
114 Junction : Or they could have gone to MSN, MKE or DSM - they are CO stations. The big question - Why divert to a closed offline station in a non-emergency?
115 VgnAtl747 : ROC is a CO station... so what's the big deal. When I used to work for OH we always let diversions deplane if we thought it was going to be a long tim
116 Smcmac32msn : ROC (New York) might be a CO station, and thats great.... but RST (Minnesota), where this incident happened is NOT a CO station.
117 Pliersinsight : Unless you know what you are doing and are prepared to handle what may, or may not result from your actions. I would have e-mailed lots of pictures a
118 ExFATboy : Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if a good lawyer could make a case that a situation like this, beyond a certain point, would constitute an "emergen
119 Manta : I highly doubt ATC would need to spread around arrivals at 12:31 in the morning. Also, I'm sure a case could be made to ATC that the other airports p
120 ExFATboy : A good point, but if you're a pilot and ATC says "divert to Airport 'x'", are you really going to question them? That's why I was wondering who actua
121 Richierich : Wrong. And I travel with them on occasion - I know how difficult it can be. I'm not saying it wasn't uncomfortable or thoroughly disgusting of the ai
122 Manta : Exactly! The other question is at what time was the decision made to divert? I don't know when the t-storms moved in over MSP. NBC states the plane w
123 Intermodal64 : CO is just practicing for their affiliation with UA! They need to offer the same stadards in service.
124 Post contains links Bcoz : Here is the FlightAware track http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...6/history/20090808/0224Z/KIAH/KMSP
125 Smcmac32msn : Looks like DSM was out due to the storms in the area.
126 OPNLguy : ATC does not, I repeat, not divert the flight--the airline involved does that via coordination between the flight's dispatcher and the flight's capta
127 GXMan : Please forgive my ignorance. In this situation, ATC tells the cockpit crew that MSP is closed. Does the cockpit crew then contact thier opps center (
128 Skydrol : The sign at the door reads EMERGENCY EXIT, and in your mind the situation of being held captive against your will is an emergency requiring escape. A
129 DocLightning : So, as an attorney, how long into your forced detainment would you have pulled the door? Remember, you don't know at the 3 hour mark that you have si
130 Arrow : I have leukemia, and therefore a compromised immune system. Just getting on an airplane carries some risk for me -- the kind of infection that makes
131 Mir : Duty day could be a factor. It doesn't take very long to fly from RST to MSP, shorter than any of the other airports you mentioned. That means that y
132 Pliersinsight : I think it is more a totality of the circumstances instead of a "it's been three hours, now is the time " kind of thing thing. Okay, I'll play along:
133 SANFan : For those of you who continue to question the choice (by whomever) to divert to RST, did you miss this post? There should have been no problem with th
134 Richierich : Jesus, nobody will doubt you are an attorney. I still maintain that breaking the law because you want off the plane does not sound like a solid defen
135 Arrow : So here's the scenario -- I advise the crew of my problem, but it doesn't look to them like an emergency and I have no way of proving it. So they sto
136 Post contains links ExFATboy : Thanks to both of you for the clarifications - I had no idea who actually made the diversion decisions. Exactly my point - we keep hearing these horr
137 Post contains links ExFATboy : Interestingly enough, Sharkey is also reporting on his blog that the crew did not actually time out until 6 AM. If this is true, even if there was a l
138 Prebennorholm : What a horror story! Forget about everything on this thread about safety. Of course safety comes first, but this incident is not about safety at all.
139 PITingres : To be fair, I don't think the mentality is "screw the passengers." I think it's more "not my job". That's far worse in my opinion, because it makes i
140 Prebennorholm : I think that you may very well be right on this one. It seems to ride some airlines or airports as a mare, even if I have often experienced the very
141 WNCrew : Doesn't seem to affect people on a GOOD day when everything is going perfect so no need to worry about them on a bad day...
142 Post contains links ExFATboy : A good point...perhaps it'd be fairer to say that senior management has the "screw the passengers" mentality, and without plans and the appropriate s
143 PITingres : Indeed, and as an ex-manager myself, I find it fascinating. Are these people so frantic to cover their asses that they'll say anything? Or, are they
144 NIKV69 : Your diggin a hole buddy. What would have happened if someone on that plane needed immediate medical attention? You think the TSA or local PD would h
145 Mir : They'd need the approval of their dispatcher in order to do that (both captain and dispatcher have to agree in order for a flight to take off). And i
146 Aviationbuff08 : With 47 passengers, on a 50 seat ERJ, seems as if they were already allocated ALT destination fuel. What the average traveler doesn't know is that on
147 KAUSpilot : WRONG. Wrong again. Let's stick with facts, not made up information and erroneous ASSumptions shall we?
148 Smcmac32msn : 99% of ExpressJet ERJs flying for CO have a plug style door, not the drop out stair door. The bottom of the door is 5.5' off the ground. I can look d
149 CALRAMPER : WRONG! ExpressJet ERJ's do not have the built in airstairs. They require the rampers to bring stairs up to them to unload the passengers. The only US
150 Svenvdm : Still little discussion about the captain. I'm still interested what her options would have been? Maybe a cockpit crew member can enlighten us?
151 Post contains links Smcmac32msn : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/...on_go_ca_st_pe/us_nightmare_flight The government is investigating why the plane was there for as long as it wa
152 EXCOASA1982 : In my experience, as a former xe ops employee, this situation does not surprise me in the slightest. I can guarantee you that no one did any coordina
153 Richierich : Then who is to say that you wouldn't have caught "something really nasty" in the course of the regular 3 hour flight? Opening the door on your own ac
154 NIKV69 : There was nobody there. You realize of course the whole airport was deserted right? Unfortunately you would be wrong. I guranantee you if I was at th
155 Smcmac32msn : Nobody was there??? So you're saying in 25 minutes the entire airport emptied out, the doors were locked and nobody was patrolling from the security
156 Richierich : I doubt it - but we weren't there! I have also read that the terminal was open and available to the CO plane. A DL plane landed there around the same
157 Maverick623 : Fortunately for the rest of us, you're neither a judge, cop, or lawyer. When someone's health/freedom is placed in immediate jeopardy. Being "forced"
158 Post contains links Svenvdm : Even the DOT Secretary himself got involved now: http://www.airportbusiness.com/inter...-unintended-consequences%E2%80%A6/
159 OPNLguy : No prob, but for that matter nobody else does either... That statement couldn't have been more accurate if you'd sent it via a Tomahawk cruise missil
160 Pliersinsight : Okay, so let me understand what you are saying: Unless you are a cop or someone of "priviledge" (which I assume means an airline employee or a Kenned
161 Rampart : The editorial is correct. Airlines should police these incidents themselves, and they do mostly, but cases get through (and in this case they can't e
162 OPNLguy : The first thing to do is not implement a "solution" that's going to introduce the "Law of Unintended Consequences" into the equation, and make things
163 ExFATboy : Sorry, but I have to disagree - the public can make critical distinctions. I think, for example, at least most of the flying public, can distinguish
164 Mir : Not many, apart from calling up the airport manager and negotiating how to get the passengers off. IIRC, people on this site have claimed that they w
165 Richierich : Yes, and neither are 99% of the people on this site. And those that claim they are one of the three above, probably 50% of those are lying through th
166 OPNLguy : Exactly. I think to most people, a delay is a delay is a delay. To be equally honest, and as I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't work for CoEx an
167 Maverick623 : Yes, I am well aware of that, more than most people. Assuming that the stories are accurate, by 3AM there was no aircraft or other movement rampside.
168 ExFATboy : Actually, there's plenty of case law to support the idea that a corporation could be held accountable for false imprisonment for holding customers in
169 OPNLguy : If I were you, I'd run right out and copyright that, as it's liable to get a great deal of use... You could end up wealthy off the royalties...
170 BWI5OH : As a person in the Law Enforcement career for the past 16 years, and being quite capable of proving a case beyond a reasonable doubt, I really don't t
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