DL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17602 times:
This seems really strange, although this would give Southwest a better DEN presence F9 Just seems like a strange addition. I would have expected Jet Blue to bid for F9, I'm sure SW will get rid of the Airbus A320s as quickly as possible
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7202 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17404 times:
Quoting DL767captain (Reply 1): This seems really strange, although this would give Southwest a better DEN presence F9 Just seems like a strange addition. I would have expected Jet Blue to bid for F9, I'm sure SW will get rid of the Airbus A320s as quickly as possible
It has been discussed to death as you can see with the three threads all well above 250 posts. F9 is doing quite well which I don't think anyone has denied. WN also said in the original release that they pretty much have no plans to keep the Airbus long term.
If you have time, they were actually pretty great threads with many valid and well thought out points.
PlanePainter From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 56 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17085 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 6): As I said from the git-go: "If you can't beat 'em - buy 'em."
Sad but true. IF they win this, I sure feel bad for the employees of F9 and their families. They are the ones that will get the short end of the stick in all this. And I am talking about ALL of them, not just the pilots.
Logos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 805 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16980 times:
Quoting PlanePainter (Reply 7): Sad but true. IF they win this, I sure feel bad for the employees of F9 and their families. They are the ones that will get the short end of the stick in all this. And I am talking about ALL of them, not just the pilots.
You never know, that reality might carry some weight with the bankruptcy court in Republic's favor. Technically, they're there to serve the interests of the creditors and, on the surface, Southwest's bid seems to do a somewhat better job of that. However, given all that's come down recently in terms of government involvement in the minutiae of running businesses (see takeover of GM), the potential loss of jobs may prove to be something of a trump card. We'll have to see.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2201 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16853 times:
In poker this would be 'put up or shut up'. All ideas that WN was not serious are now gone as this amount of a raise pretty much ensures a win thru the auction. Republic gets more money back to soften the blow.
In chapt 11 since 2008 and unable to attract financing to bring the company out on it's own this appears to be the end of the road.....I am sure there will be uplifting words from both F9 and WN trying to boost morale thru these times so that the value of WN's purchase does not tank right off the bat but the previously announced intention is 2 years and out.
Fleet Service From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 623 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16768 times:
So when an airline goes into bankruptcy and people say "What about the employees?" they get shouted down by the "Creditors best interests!" crowd but now somehow it's the employees taking precedence over the creditors in this case?
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
PlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16668 times:
It's pretty sad in a lot of respects. I like Frontier, my kids like Frontier, and we fly them. My nephew calls me from the airport to tell me what animal is on the tail. Frontier has great service, great and pleasant crews, and has provided great access to and from Denver.
I like Southwest and have flown them with moderate frequency and think it is a truly great airline, but there is something special about Frontier that will be missed (yes, I think Southwest will be successful with that bid).
TxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined exactly 16 years ago today! , 1803 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16580 times:
First of all, Mariner.......I will answer your question. Yes, I think that WN is winning a war of attrition. It takes a long time, and it costs money.....but slowly and surely WN is taking market share control away from other incumbent carriers at DEN. United, mainly, and to a lesser degree F9.
Why would they want to buy F9? Because it is faster...and quite possibly cheaper.....to buy the preeminent position in the marketplace.
Looking in to my crystal ball, though, I don't see the dreary picture for F9 employees that so many people are predicting. WN took bunches and bunches of MuseAir and Morris folks in those transactions and this one will likely be the same. I am not totally convinced that Southwest will rapidly or ultimately fold Frontier....even though that is what their current plans may be.
First of all, I think WN wants Lynx. I think they want to own and operate their own commuter feed and the ability to acquire a well run and well equipped company with a good reputation is a good thing. As I mentioned in the previous post, WN is very picky about quality control and with Lynx, WN is at the controls. In fact, if it works, I look for a pretty healthy expansion of Lynx to feed WN at other "big stations." (We all know WN has no hubs)
I know WN doesn't want to keep F9's Airbuses indefinitely, but I am not sure that they won't operate F9 independently and simply replace the Airbuses with some of the B737-700s on order. I can see WN use F9 as a laboratory of sorts....put in a business class section up front, allow for assigned seating, maybe put a little bit more of a galley in so that meals can be served. Then the F9 subsidiary can be used for longer haul stuff with more amenities. F9 brings Alaska & Mexico. There's no reason why, with 737-700s, that they can't expand WN's reach to Hawaii & the Caribbean. The F9 aircraft could be equipped with life rafts and whatever else is needed to make them ETOPS capable. Yes, the F9 subfleet would be 737-700s which would allow for shared maintenance and reduced costs but could be configured a bit differently and used for a different markets.
Ultimately what we'll have is WN, looking pretty much like they do today - operating single class short and medium haul service within the Continental United States. You will have the F9 subsidiary, offering two class service, flying longer hauls than its sibling WN, and you will have Lynx which feeds both F9 and WN at several stations - I would guess Denver, Houston, and maybe even Chicago Midway. I'm not sure that they will retain the Frontier name....but I doubt they will be in any hurry to do so. I think you can expect WN to drag their feet when it comes to repainting the aircraft. They & American among airlines seem to live with a paint scheme for practically forever.
In the short term WN will do some interesting things with some F9 cities. The Lynx flights from Denver to Wichita will continue to Love Field and the Denver to Tulsa Lynx flights will be axed, putting all 737s on the Denver-Tulsa route. Lynx from Denver to Albuquerque will be axed in favor of another frequency or two with 737s, but they might just bring back DEN-ELP on the Q400s. Denver to Fargo will continue but they will add Fargo to MSP....or better yet, MDW. WN will not drop Akron or Dayton - but they will go in and add some BWI and MDW frequencies at both those stations.
Who will keep their jobs and who won't? Initially, very few folks will leave. F9 Res Agents will be offered transfers to existing WN Res Centers. Some will take them up on the offer, others won't. At a lot of outstations F9 employees will be integrated into WN staffing as far as Ramp and CSAs are concerned......in some of these places F9 has already subcontracted out their ramp work and WN will take over the performance of these functions....which will increase the workload, which will require more folks....so WN will certainly be offering some folks the opprtunity to transfer. In the end I'd be willing to bet that most F9 folks who want to work for WN will have jobs at WN. They could do a lot worse.
KingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1331 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16414 times:
Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 15): Looking in to my crystal ball, though, I don't see the dreary picture for F9 employees that so many people are predicting. WN took bunches and bunches of MuseAir and Morris folks in those transactions and this one will likely be the same. I am not totally convinced that Southwest will rapidly or ultimately fold Frontier....even though that is what their current plans may be.
But, didn't WN say they want to only take 80% of F9's Airbus? Isn't that 20% of F9 aircraft that won't be flying and 20% less pilots, flight attendants, caterers, etc? It sounds like that will happen fairly quickly. You can't absorb that many furloughs into WN's existing network. That's just to start. What happens as other Airbus transition to Boeing? How many employees aren't needed at F9, and how many get the opportunity to work at WN? Some people will be okay. A lot won't. The majority of people who live in DEN will not be able to relocate. You mentioned reservations, how many people in LRU will be able to relocate? I think F9 employees in the smaller outstations will have a better chance of getting on with WN in those stations. It will be very easy for WN to take F9's 10 employees in BNA. That's the case in the majority of the F9/WN stations. I just don't see that in DEN (mechanics, res office, accounting, marketing, IT, HR, VP's, security, pilots, flight attendants, ramp, gate, customer service, catering, aircraft appearance, GSE, etc.)
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 26700 posts, RR: 82
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16377 times:
Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 15): First of all, Mariner.......I will answer your question. Yes, I think that WN is winning a war of attrition. It takes a long time, and it costs money.....but slowly and surely WN is taking market share control away from other incumbent carriers at DEN. United, mainly, and to a lesser degree F9.
I keep saying this and it seems like a waste of time to say it again, but Frontier has not lost market share at DEN since Southwest came to DEN.
You can advance the cause of Southwest all you want - and I respect you for it.
But I will always advance the cause of Frontier.
Two things are clear to me:
(i) that the size of the bid is an admission by Southwest that they have not been able to hammer Frontier into the dust - that if they want DEN, they must have Frontier.
(ii) I have followed Frontier intimately for over ten years. there will be a hole in my heart if they disappear.
Life will go on but it will be a little less rich for me.
I do not dispute that but such a statement has to be it has to be qualified: Frontier is in Chapter 11. It is not paying for all its bills and Ch 11 is a dramatic step taken when companies are *dying*. Frontier is doing as well as somebody who got a heart transplant and is recovering quickly. That means well, but *vulnerable*.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23942 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16300 times:
Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 15): I know WN doesn't want to keep F9's Airbuses indefinitely, but I am not sure that they won't operate F9 independently and simply replace the Airbuses with some of the B737-700s on order. I can see WN use F9 as a laboratory of sorts....
The question, though, is if it ain't broke, why fix it?
WN has thrived on simplicity for forty years. Simplicity has consistently made them money. What is the chink in that armor?
On a separate note, what happens if DoJ wants WN to divest 50% or 75% of F9? If I were a shrewd investor, I'd buy those assets, hire Sean Menke, and open Frontier II at DEN. It seems like WN would have paid a whole bunch of money for almost nothing.
It's a lot different from a hypothetical WN-FL merger, where WN could divest tons of assets and keep the crown jewel (ATL) intact. F9's crown jewel is all there is.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Because they have to. My understanding is that now $170 million becomes the base bid. If Republic wants F9, they then have to bid $171 million, and WN can then come in for $172 million and so on in $1 million increments. Now, from what I understand, Republic only has $94 million and change in cash reserves whereas WN has $2.2 billion in cash. Therefore, if Repbulic wants F9, they are going to have to get a loan somehow, and in this economic climate, good luck with that.