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Delta - US Airways Trade LGA/DCA Slots  
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22753 times:

US Airways will obtain 42 pairs of slots (roundtrip flights) at Washington, D.C.’s Reagan National Airport and will acquire the rights to expand to Sao Paulo and Tokyo.

US Airways will transfer to Delta 125 pairs of slots currently used to provide US Airways Express service at LaGuardia.

US Airways will maintain a significant presence at LaGuardia Airport including the popular, business-friendly US Airways Shuttle. No changes are planned for US Airways’ mainline flight levels at LaGuardia.

US Airways expects the transaction to improve its profitability by more than $75 million annually.

289 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22816 times:

This is huge ... from DELTA:

The agreement, which is subject to government approvals, calls for US Airways to transfer 125 operating slot pairs to Delta at LaGuardia and Delta to transfer 42 operating slot pairs to US Airways at Reagan National. The airlines also will swap gates at LaGuardia between the Marine Air Terminal and US Airways' Terminal C to consolidate all Delta operations -- including the Delta Shuttle -- into an expanded main terminal facility with 11 additional gates for Delta customers.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7556 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22766 times:

Huh?
Delta also will exchange a limited number of international route authorities to US Airways for service to Brazil and Japan. These transfers will not result in any material schedule changes for Delta customers.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8603 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22739 times:
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just to clarify - the GRU and NRT services will NOT be from DCA of course

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2475446/

they are looking at CLT-GRU and PHX-NRT ....good luck , they will need it



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22698 times:

Does this have any impact on Delta's shuttle ops, or will this just affect the # of mainline/Connection flights out of DCA?

User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7556 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22662 times:



Quoting N202PA (Reply 4):
Does this have any impact on Delta's shuttle ops, or will this just affect the # of mainline/Connection flights out of DCA?

No effect on either shuttle it appears.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22623 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 2):
Huh?
Delta also will exchange a limited number of international route authorities to US Airways for service to Brazil and Japan. These transfers will not result in any material schedule changes for Delta customers.

Seems brilliant huh... profit making routes that they wanted more of... to give them away (to a company that probably won't even use them to Japan, and if they do from where?) Not to mention lets add more flights to a delayed airport so we can be "New York's #1 Airline"



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7556 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22619 times:

This had been rumored. It is very interesting. I wonder if the US shuttle is really viable now, or if it is only a matter of time till it dies or is sold.

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8603 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22532 times:
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Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Seems brilliant huh... profit making routes that they wanted more of... to give them away

I might be mistaken but arent they trading currently dormant authorities ? In which case they are not 'profit making' , although in fairness they are not loss making either .

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
(to a company that probably won't even use them to Japan, and if they do from where?)

probably from PHX according to the press release



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7556 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22502 times:

Here is DL's current portfolio at DCA. It's going to be big to lose 42 departures, although I THINK they already were leasing 11 pairs of slots to US. That would mean they need to cut 31 departures from DCA if I'm right.

Here is what I'm speculating is gone.

ATL 16
BOS 9 (gone)
CVG 5 (gone?)
DSM 1 (gone)
DTW 9
GRR 1 (gone)
HSV 2 (gone)
IND 4 (gone?)
JAN 1 (gone)
JFK 6
LEX 1 (gone)
LGA 13
MEM 3
MSN 1 (gone)
MSP 8
SLC 1 (Air21, not able to be sold)

Looks like all of that plus a couple of ATLs and maybe a DTW/MSP frequency as well. Hard to see CVG staying.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22405 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
probably from PHX according to the press release

With what plane though? The A332 will have a problem going PHX-NRT or wherever they might get in Japan. As it was DL had a tough time operating without weight limits SLC-NRT.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4707 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22376 times:

Anyone want to bet the additional LGA flying will come from the demise of CVG?


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3345 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22390 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):

Seems brilliant huh... profit making routes that they wanted more of... to give them away (to a company that probably won't even use them to Japan, and if they do from where?) Not to mention lets add more flights to a delayed airport so we can be "New York's #1 Airline"

Burnsie, so wrong on so many levels. LGA is a crown jewel. A LGA HUB is a MEGA crown jewel. This is so much more important to Delta's future than a handful of slots at GRU and NRT, it's not even funny.

Delays are irrelevant.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7556 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22341 times:



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 13):
Anyone want to bet the additional LGA flying will come from the demise of CVG?

Maybe, but a lot of it comes from the demise of DCA (see above). You might be right, because it is hard to see how they can fit CVG into the remaining DC schedule and US announced they will start DCA-CVG (hmm).


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22310 times:

It's really great to see PNS-DCA service finally. I think this should do well.

User currently offlineIliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22290 times:

Good deal for both I guess. So Tokyo by 2012? And Rio and Sao Paulo both from CLT? Wonder why not PHL...


delta.com
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8603 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22257 times:
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Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 12):
With what plane though? The A332 will have a problem going PHX-NRT or wherever they might get in Japan. As it was DL had a tough time operating without weight limits SLC-NRT.

Are the US A332 identical to the DL(NW) ones ? If they are differently configured they could have different capabilities . Other airlines have operated longer sectors than either SLC-NRT or PHX-NRT with A332 .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22249 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 16):
It's really great to see PNS-DCA service finally. I think this should do well.

PNS has been the largest O&D from the combined DCA/BWI/IAD without any nonstop service from at least one of the airports for years ... so, this should be a good route.


User currently offlineNWA757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22214 times:

Remember NW had a bunch of slots at DCA so perhaps that is where the slots are coming from. Many of them are leased to USair, so maybe they are selling them? Does that make any sense I don't know. ha.


As far as the NRT slots, well it's better USair than anyone else as they are least likely to ever fly there.


User currently offlineJFKMAN From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22208 times:

I don't know what to say....

I'm a little shocked, but yet I was expecting something like this to happen.

I fly out of LGA on US Airways a lot...so this is disappointing indeed. But I am happy to see US will be able to build in DCA and internationaly.



US / AA - JFK / TPA
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8603 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22221 times:
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will this put DL at number 1 at LGA ? If so , given how big they are at JFK as well is there a possibility that the whole deal could be rejected as anti-competitive for giving DL too much concentrated power in the NYC market ?


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineIliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 22145 times:

According to this article, US Airways will serve 15 new daily destinations from DCA and they are: CVG, DSM, GRR, MSN, YUL, MIA, YOW, BHM, ISP, ITH, LIT, MYR, PNS, SAV, TLH.


delta.com
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 22093 times:



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 13):
Anyone want to bet the additional LGA flying will come from the demise of CVG?

That wouldnt surprise me. Where else does it really make sense to bring the aircraft from?

I'm curious as to what DL's 30 new cities form LGA will be. I wonder if they'll join the party on CRW-LGA.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7556 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 22054 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 24):
That wouldnt surprise me. Where else does it really make sense to bring the aircraft from?



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 23):
US Airways will serve 15 new daily destinations from DCA and they are: CVG,

Yeah, and the clue is right there in the US release...


User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 22615 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 25):
Yeah, and the clue is right there in the US release...

That doesnt come off as a huge indicator to me. US is pretty strong in DCA and CVG should be a viable market for them to run with or without DL's presence.


25 NWA757boy : Look across the river at EWR. CO is still a big player in the NYC market. And don't forget jetBlue.
26 Kiwiandrew : true , but there is a difference between being a dominant player in one airport and being a dominant player in 2 out of the 3 majors airports in a ma
27 Flyinryan99 : This means a return of US to GRR. I wonder if they would be willing to start GRR-CLT or restart GRR-PHL to compliment GRR-DCA. This surely has airpor
28 Hardiwv : What slots DL would trade in GRU? I assume the 3 weekly LAX-GRU, plus JFK-GRU? I doubt US would be interested in 3 slots in GRU because it would need
29 Kiwiandrew : I was under the (possibly mistaken ) impression that DL hold currently dormant authorities to GRU as well as the ones they are currently using .
30 C010T3 : Brazilian slots are not negotiable. And AFAIK US-Brazil frequencies aren't either, so it doesn't make any sense...
31 LipeGIG : Probably they are trying to build a Latin America hub there. It's a better location closer to Florida.
32 Kiwiandrew : maybe DL have just done the airline equivalent of selling the Brooklyn Bridge to US
33 JFKMAN : Yes... Delta's time at CVG is coming to an end.
34 MAH4546 : A very interesting move. I like it. However, it will be scrutinized by DOT/DOJ and airlines will be complaining. I can imagine Southwest and JetBlue m
35 Jetlanta : It means that DL will have about 250 daily roundtrips from LGA. So yes, #1. The definition of "concentration" is not arbitrary. There is a formula th
36 MaverickM11 : The record for dual hubs is a mixed bag. If these slots were at JFK this would be the coup of the century--at LGA I'm not so sure.
37 Hardiwv : LAX-GRU is half-dormant as the route only operates in July and then again in December. JFK-GRU for which DL has 7 fequencies is also not fully used a
38 Transpac787 : Same MGTOW, higher-thrust engines. Keep in mind that the only thing to consider is not just distance. The trans-polar winds, in the winter, are HUGE.
39 Enilria : MSN/GRR/DSM/HSV are simply being transferred from DL, why not CVG as well... It's VERY unusual to "attack" the company you just did the deal with in
40 ERJ170 : So which destinations will US have from LGA?
41 IliriBDL : For GRU, on the FAQ for employes: Also for NRT, using an A332 from PHX. Might as well wait for the A350. lol
42 Kiwiandrew : thanks for the clarification , I wasnt sure how these things work.
43 C010T3 : Did read what I wrote at all?
44 MaverickM11 : I smell GRU/GIG tag...
45 Enilria : I suspect some of these slots will be splintered off to WN/B6/FL. The reason US listed all the new destinations to leverage them. If B6 says they nee
46 Gift4tbone : I have to say this was a shocker, I'd read it was rumored on a.net several times, and just didn't want to believe it. However, This might be a great m
47 LHCVG : I agree. Even though they serve nominally different market segments, I just don't see having large ops at both LGA and JFK being that effective fo DL
48 DeltaL1011man : PHX-NRT...... agreed.....IMO DL ay be looking for more slots. I believe DL will do whatever is needed to keep DCA-BOS and DCA-CVG. IMO CVG will get c
49 PlateMan : What I find most intresting is the terminal changes in LGA - don't see that discussed in this thread. From the press release: At DCA- nothing really c
50 LipeGIG : So it could mean DL negotiates restricted frequencies ? Lets wait and see what DL have negotiated... could be even FOR/REC/MAO frequencies as i doubt
51 MAH4546 : Frequencies are non-transferable. They need to be offered to all airlines publicly, which is why I'm confused about this move. Maybe what US and DL i
52 Hardiwv : Again in more detail...Slots: US could apply for the slots in GRU. Frequencies: it would depend on the trade between DL and US and DOT endorsement an
53 Bobnwa : Burnsie as usual you seem to be speaking before you examine the facts. DL is not giving up any profit making routes, since the routes are dormant(mea
54 AF086 : They can't do that. The frequencies awarded early this year cannot be used to GRU whatsoever not even as a tag-on from GIG. If US wants to serve GRU,
55 MaverickM11 : The only way they'd come close to filling that plane would be to combine both destinations, at least initially.
56 KITH : Interesting news. Do we know where Delta will fly? I doubt that they will sustain service to smaller New England markets such as ITH. DL couldn't make
57 MAH4546 : Yes, they have. Notably DCA beyond-exemption frequencies. DOT also blocked Delta's transfer of LAX-GDL frequencies from DL to OH, saying that such a
58 Hardiwv : 100% correct. I agree that US flying GRU or GIG would be a difficult operation to sell... Okay, but these were exceptions, by and large DOT approves
59 FlyPNS1 : I think this will be interesting. From the eyes of the LCC's, this really is collusion between the two carriers to allow DL to gain dominance in LGA
60 MAH4546 : No. Those are not exceptions. We only have two recent examples of the transferring of a limited-entry market: LAX-GDL and JFK-LON. The former was rej
61 DeltaL1011man : likely DL will never pass CO in NYC. IIRC this will make them larger than AA at LGA. B6 and AA IIRC is still larger than DL at JFK as am I. "US Airwa
62 Cubsrule : What are the current market shares at LGA? 3 carriers with 25% each would be above the threshold. It would be hypocritical for DoJ not to take a look
63 LipeGIG : Any situation different from a simple change of frequencies and schedule, in my view would not got DOT and ANAC approvals. But as i mentioned, before
64 BigGSFO : Interesting how once upon a time access to Sao Paulo and Nartia printed money. Now they are being traded for domestic slots, which could very well be
65 Loggat : Almost doesn't seem like a fair trade to me. 42 pairs and some sort of route authority, versus 125 pairs. I guess US thinks they can make a lot more m
66 Ryefly : US Airways should have worked out a deal for the Northwest A330-200 fleet to replace the 767's fleet quickly. That way they can do some of these longe
67 DeltaL1011man : it looks like the DALPA will be growing by 50 flights in NYC (mix of 73N and M88) DoJ went after CO/UA due to A) ATI/JV across both oceans and B) Chi
68 JFKMAN : US Airways is getting rid of their slots in LGA...ok. US Airways is running out of money. I think this whole slot thing is US Airways setting itself u
69 DeltaL1011man : Forgot to add. FL and CO will have nothing to say about this as CO is getting 1 gate and 10 EWR slots for 4 LGA slots and 6 DCA slots. Now to make AA
70 Mayor : I don't think DL is going to let go of those A330-200s.
71 Hardiwv : This seems quite clear. Accepted, but even if DOT decides to put DL rights to GRU for open bidding it seems quite obvious which airline would get it:
72 Davescj : I think a couple things are good to remember. One CO isjoinging *A. That will allow codeshares on COm flts for US. While not great for O/D traffic, as
73 ERJ170 : It really does seem that everybody is doing something EXCEPT AA.. and before anyone says AA doesn't really need to do anything, I think they do.. the
74 Ouboy79 : All in all the deal is a win-win from the looks of it. US gains in DCA and they get to drop a lot of money losing express flights out of LGA. The new
75 Davescj : AA has been consistely savvy. Notice they aren't in chapter 11. I suspect if a good deal popped up, AA woudl buy. In a way, I"m a bit surprsied they
76 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's what people were missing initially but I guess they "get it" now. DL would not trade if they didn't need them. Apparently, they have big plans
77 Cubsrule : Passenger numbers for top 10 carriers at LGA in 2008 AA+MQ 5,477,122 DL+NW+OH 5,206,396 US+ZW 2,789,093 UA 1,568,508 FL 1,193,021 NK 975,176 The shar
78 Transpac787 : No, just rather impressive weight limits, I would imagine. Also, the jetstream is at its weakest during the summer. During the fall and winter the je
79 FutureUScapt : DL does not get to "force"US to fly to NRT from a certain city. US is likely choosing to fly PHX-NRT since the A332s don't really have the legs to fl
80 Hardiwv : Your reasoning makes sense, but DL GRU-ATL is not timed for connections with DL ATL-NRT. Rgs,
81 MogandoCI : /2 ou You end up double feeding - you need frequencies to LGA for business travelers, then you need more frequencies to JFK to connect internationally
82 Transpac787 : DL certainly isn't the only one who has a 'direct' routing from Japan to Brazil or any other South American country... UA NRT-IAD easily connects to
83 Davescj : I agree. First, trans ocean makes too much money usually to give up lightly. Many DL destinations use the A330 as a perfectly good plane. Further, th
84 BNAtraveler : Wonder if DL will begin running a bus shuttle to connect between JFK and LGA.
85 C010T3 : US has to prove that it can launch CLT-GIG successfully before it's eligible for new frequencies. If either AA or CO come with requests like EWR-GIG,
86 SeeTheWorld : The only other option for US to NRT would be PHL, but its 1,000 miles longer than PHX and the connecting flows are more circuitous than PHX even thou
87 Cubsrule : Some of those (e.g. ORD-GIG) are about as likely to work as CLT-GIG.
88 TIA : Not to be annoying, but since when is NY in New England? I don't know if LGA flights are profitable or not, but even before the EWR flights, flights
89 Bobnwa : DL/NW does not own the A330 in the usual sense, in that they have loans outstanding on them. The aircraft are not leased, but they are not owned outr
90 ADent : Can't US fly this with the same aircraft they are going to use on PHL-China?
91 FutureUScapt : Per Scott Kirby, the plan (as other posters have speculated) is to transfer US' CLT-GIG authority to DL for one of their unrestricted frequencies, to
92 C010T3 : He got confused with the information that São Paulo is the largest Japanese city outside Japan.
93 NYCFlyer : Can someone please clarify: will DL's JFK-GRU likely be eliminated?
94 KITH : ITH is in mid atlantic but that doesn't seem to fit, I'm guessing you've experienced our winters so New England might be moe appropriate but either w
95 MaverickM11 : They could, but it'd be a lost cause.
96 MAH4546 : That plan make sense, but there is still no need or market for US Airways in GIG. CLT-GRU will work; CLT-GIG won't work (and so far it isn't working)
97 Enilria : I don't think they will be allowed to sell the Shuttle to DL. I think another purchaser is more likely. The separate operation at the Marine Air Term
98 C010T3 : That would make sense, but what DL do with restricted frequencies? Start JFK-GIG? Though that version has a conflict with the statement that: The air
99 Planetime : Why doesn't DL focus more on making JFK a true power hub? Rather than expanding now into LGA?
100 MAH4546 : In a letter to US employees, it was noted much more appropriately that plans for GIG might change.
101 Junction : Why is that? Are there too many seats offered already from GIG to the U.S.?
102 Davescj : JFK is a pretty powerful hub. But part of the problem is the nighmare of expansion in JFK. There is going to need to be some serious work on the term
103 D L X : Why is US out of place in Rio but not in Sao Paolo?
104 Enilria : They won't stop it, they will just ask for some of the slots and probably will get some (B6/WN). I agree it is probably one of CVG's best routes, but
105 Post contains links AvConsultant : AA is not doing well. They're the only large airline yet to restructured their cost. DL nor any airline will not trade a route authority without stip
106 DeltaL1011man : not yet at least. One would think DL will end up owning them. (how long does it take to pay an A/C off anyways?) So pretty much what DL wanted to do
107 Davescj : How badly are they doing? Are the figures out yet? I am surprised really they haven't restructured in some meaningful way. But who knows....The year
108 Enilria : GIG is leisure and GRU is business. Long-haul leisure routes are notoriously unprofitable, although personally I'd much rather visit GIG.
109 FutureUScapt : No, it would presumably be used to fly ATL-GIG, since they would be giving up 7 unrestricted frequencies that they currently use for ATL-GIG. It is u
110 DeltaL1011man : I agree here. IMO DL is going to give US a little bit of cash.
111 FlyPNS1 : But I'm not sure US/DL will be willing to part with many slides. Letting B6/WN grow in LGA/DCA, undermines the whole point of this deal. Letting thos
112 MaverickM11 : This allows DL to grow its NYC footprint by a solid jump, but it does little for the JFK hub. By picking up LGA it has two independent halves of a hu
113 MAH4546 : Yes, there are. Capacity is way up, fares are down, and some airlines are starting to cutback on capacity, like United, which is pulling IAD-GIG non-
114 Richierich : I completely agree - I think this is basically an all or nothing deal for US and DL. I can't imagine how B6, WN or any other airline will angle to ge
115 SeeTheWorld : Interesting point, but the combo of UA and AA at DCA is worse than at LGA even before US gets these new DL slots at DCA ...
116 Davescj : I can't see DL reducing to much at JFK. But they do need to do some serious remodeling. Also, with the greater presnce in LGA, that could focus on mo
117 Contrails : This is a blockbuster announcement. In addition to the new US service out of DCA, the DL and US Shuttles are swapping terminals at LGA. Wow!
118 AvConsultant : I think you are "spot on". AA has a huge ego in avoiding bankruptcy. They'll attempt to bargain by opening the books and that will determine AA filin
119 Post contains links Hardiwv : Thanks for the clarifications. Brazil is home to the biggest Japanese community outside Japan - there are about 1.5 million people of Japanese descen
120 AvConsultant : Like an Indianapolis airline who's been in acquisition mode lately?
121 Enilria : JP Morgan coverage of US liquidity ...we continue to envision year-end unrestricted liquidity in the $1.3 billion range, before adjusting for any pot
122 MaverickM11 : That's the conundrum. All this new LGA capacity would do wonders for the JFK hub, but unfortunately it's nine miles away.
123 Enilria : But, CLT is not home to the biggest Brazilian community outside Brazil!!! ROTFL That's not a crazy thought, but you'd think it's worth more to WN/B6.
124 Davescj : The ultimate dream -- a non stop train between the two. Even if you had to go outside secrity, a monorail (orsimilar) between the two would be awesom
125 FutureUScapt : I'm not so sure a sell of the Shuttle is imminent. US will have an even larger presence in DCA as a result, and it will still have sizeable operation
126 TIA : Oh, I didn't know that 9L wasn't flying ITH-LGA anymore. Last I time I flew that route was in Sept '08. So I guess the 9L base in ITH might have alre
127 SANFan : As has been briefly mentioned in only a couple of posts so far, I have a strong feeling that the Perimeter Exemption Rules at both DCA and LGA are abo
128 SHUPirate1 : Eleven, but point taken and agreed to. If there was any way to get an in-security transfer (US helicopter?), it would work wonders for them...
129 SeeTheWorld : Congress has no say over the LGA perimeter rule only DCA - talk about a political hot potato for both ...
130 FutureUScapt : The perimeter rule at LGA exists because of the PANYNJ, not Congress though. FWIW, Parker and Kirby have been optimistic that the rule will be relaxe
131 Bobnwa : " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...ilian Yes, but they aren't Japanese (Japanese citizens) are they. By that logic the US is the
132 DeltaL1011man : No. This will have nothing to do with JFK. I don't, I expect AA to pitch a fit. IMO CO and FL wont say anything unless they want DL to start a fight
133 Mir : It still wouldn't make connections attractive. JFK and LGA cannot be one hub - they are best utilized to serve the NYC O&D market (which is still ver
134 MAH4546 : You are delusional. DOT will object. AA will object. Southwest will object. JetBlue will object. I personally like the deal and think its great, but
135 Cubsrule : LGA will be a problem, as I've detailed. Here's a similar analysis for DCA. Current market shares (year ending June, 2009): US 40.9% DL 21.4% AA 16.3
136 PlanesNTrains : Perhaps, but doubtful. I would think that it has more to do with entering Star (and thus, working with CO) and perhaps the mentioned cash position. A
137 Evan767 : How about a MagLev train between the two? You'd be from LGA to JFK in about 5 minutes.
138 Dartland : This is what happens when you want to shut down routes but the opportunity cost is too high because the slots themselves are valuable. US can't afford
139 DeltaMD90 : Although I don't see CVG in DL's long term future, isn't a lot of this shift of flights rather than adding flights near CVG? Either way, I think there
140 SHUPirate1 : That's why I suggested that US Helicopter (who already flies to an in-security place at JFK) provide connections between LGA and JFK. No new infrastr
141 Jetlanta : On what legal grounds? I think you are correct. DL and US have structured this deal to avoid problems with DOJ. DOJ's objections are not arbitrary. T
142 BHMguy : Glad to see BHM is getting a Washington flight back, since the 1x daily UAX flight is gone as of Sept 30....... Although I doubt it will last, becaus
143 Jetlanta : Post of the day. Couldn't agree more. This is exactly what is happening. The defensive strategy is a VERY important component of this.
144 Incitatus : Jetlanta - can you clarify the GRU deal? It just does not add up that DL will part with 7 GRU frequencies and still serve GRU-JFK and GRU-ATL and GIG-
145 LipeGIG : Business visitors to Brazil: Sao Paulo 52% Rio de Janeiro 23% Leisure visitors to Brazil: Rio de Janeiro + Buzios 40% Sao Paulo 14% Rio is like Houst
146 Tommy767 : No way. DL knows the A330s are modern ships that are good use for their long haul fleet. More comfortable than the 763ERs. AA probably won't put up t
147 Usairways85 : A move to D or back to E has been rumored for a few months. A combined DL/NW operation simply can't operate out of the space DL has in A. So not sure
148 Jetlanta : I don't have any info currently on it. My assumption based on what I read is that DL isn't giving up 7 GRU frequencies. There is some horse-trading a
149 AA757200 : I'm surprised there has not been more discussion on this topic. I would be interested to hear Mark's thoughts on this.
150 Incitatus : Enilria, I think that is an outdated perception. Rio gets a fair chunk of tourists, but it is an order of magnitude smaller than the actual potential
151 FutureUScapt : Exactly, as I outlined in Post #91, US will seek to swap its current "GIG only" slot for one of DL's unrestricted slots (presumably the one being use
152 DeltaL1011man : As do I. I just don't think Delta or US would give WN a chance to grow in NYC. aka US and DL are just stupid like some on here say they are.....id lo
153 Enilria : I agree on the DCA slots, but who is to say that the Shuttle is sold "whole"...The slots are where the value is. If they had sold the Shuttle to Delt
154 Jetlanta : Yeah, that sounds like what I am hearing.
155 AvConsultant : Exactly. If RP picked up the Shuttle from USAirways, US would gain cash (which RP has a lot of) all while cutting cost. One scenario could have RP ta
156 Jetlanta : People should ask, would CO rather have a stable DL controlling US Airways' LGA assets or WN (or B6, FL, etc...)? Completely different situations. Ju
157 Apodino : A lot has been made about this whole market share thing and competition. I am not buying it at all. First of all, Delta does gain the presence at LGA,
158 SurfandSnow : Wow! And here I thought yesterday's CO/AirTran deal was big news! All in all, these moves should substantially benefit both airlines and all customers
159 STT757 : CO's involved with the US Airways terminal, not the US Airways Shuttle terminal (although both are connected). The US Airways shuttle terminal was so
160 Post contains links CokePopper : http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=751 Once the transaction is approved, Delta plans to begin a nearly $40 million construction project at LaG
161 CokePopper : Also, "in addition to the larger planes, the transaction calls for the airlines to swap gates between the Marine Air Terminal and US Airways’ Termin
162 SeeTheWorld : There is no longer a slot distinction for small and large aircraft at LGA
163 Apodino : It's not going to be the Main Terminal's Concourse D, but terminal D, which is the current DL/NW Terminal. It's essentially a gate swap between DL an
164 Kiwiandrew : sorry if I have missed it , but I cant see an explanation in the thread of "HHI" ? since you two clearly understand it could one of you please explai
165 Davescj : Were it to be built, and inside security, running frequently, then you could make them function as a single hub.....but this will never happen. To fo
166 TheGMan : That does suck. Shuttle goes to Marine, and the rest of the mainline goes to Terminal B where US was in the 80s. No. Then US would have some A332s wi
167 Cubsrule : DCA: Pre-merger HHI=2483 Post-merger HHI=2845 (Highly concentrated) Change in HHI=371 (presumed anticompetitive) LGA (with the assumptions I've outli
168 LipeGIG : If they look to open the route by the 2nd half of 2010, they are looking to potential future slots. We might see DL applying next year for a JFK-GIG
169 SHUPirate1 : The way I understood it, US would be getting the Marine Air Terminal, whereas the current terminals C and D would be connected and used solely by Delt
170 MaverickM11 : Ah, that other crown jewel Of course, but DL has to expect the revenue premium at JFK on an existing flight to more than offset a totally new trip at
171 SHUPirate1 : Cubsrule-how about checking the HHI's for the entire Washington and New York metropolitan areas?
172 Panamair : Actually, US mainline is moving to LGA Terminal D, which is the current DLNW terminal. US will take 3 gates there and DL will continue to occupy the
173 SeeTheWorld : DOT will certainly be a part of any governmental approval ... Lawyers can always find legal grounds to get involved.
174 Hardiwv : Perhaps this is behind US plan to get hold of rights to GRU. This is correct and in fact Rio is far from the typical holiday, resort-oriented, all-in
175 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : US will move over the the Delta terminal. 3 gates. DL will get the rest of the DL terminal and all of the US terminal. US will move the shuttle opps
176 Flighty : This deal sounds very good for both airlines. I would expect US to operate PHL-NRT rather than PHX-NRT. According to their official communications, US
177 AvConsultant : Exactly. US can sell the Shuttle which RP has access to A-319.
178 Phatfarmlines : Regarding DL @ LGA/JFK and connecting the two airports: Davescj suggested a monorail/train connect LGA & JFK directly. What if the monorail/train were
179 KcrwFlyer : That would also mean adding overall capacity. Does anyone really want to do that now? Maybe it was the best performing of the spokes? It could also j
180 MaverickM11 : Flying on the back of a unicorn would be nice as well, and equally likely.
181 Enilria : Actually the data LipeGIG allows me to prove my point very easily. The ratio of business to leisure at GRU is 52-14 according to his numbers which eq
182 Yellowtail : This is an interesting idea....hubs bascially fit...routes basically fit....fleets are another story.
183 Flaps : I don't think that PIT is going to stay in that mix. I see PIT being dropped and those slots used for flights to PHL/CLT. In that scenario I foresee
184 Jetlanta : I swear you have like a 10 day outlook on the industry. Look at where CO was in NYC in the early 80's. Look where they are now. There is not going to
185 DeltaL1011man : I don't think Delta is about to add 100+ LGA slots and not think capacity is going to go up just a bit. LGA WILL NOT be a replacement for CVG. At thi
186 Jetlanta : Could be. The legacy guys know who their real enemies are. Not so much. IAD carries a greater share of domestic traffic than it did a decade ago. And
187 Flighty : I see no indication that US is unhappy with their Shuttle. They are keeping it. US is still pretty big in the Northeast. Their LGA assets were simply
188 StarAlliance38 : Geez, the day I thought I can take a nap and work for most of the day without going on the internet and THIS thing comes up! I've been to US' LGA Term
189 Cubsrule : Those are, not surprisingly, less problematic. I'd caution, though, that I anticipate the government will look at the individual airports both becaus
190 PeachAir : How'd that get into the LGA slot thread? RDU Skyclub due to open November 1. Stroll by and you can see that is under construction.
191 JFKMAN : A merger with AA? Hmm...I think they are def setting up for one. I hope its with AA.
192 LHCVG : What would the impact be if this were the other way around, where DL got a huge chunk of US's slots at DCA plus a move to Pier C?
193 Post contains links MasseyBrown : It's a widely-accepted measure of market concentration. Read this: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hhi.asp
194 Incitatus : Come on Mav! The airline that can bring all three airports around Manhattan to a grinding halt by clogging them with all-RJ service wins! And frankly
195 C010T3 : Yes, thank you for the clarification. I don't know how I didn't see that before. I always said that DL would try to get use the GIG-frequencies for G
196 MaverickM11 : DL's international route planners and I have something in common then I totally agree. The operational costs. And it's at the wrong airport. But as y
197 MAH4546 : Eh, it never stops other routes from selling, like Colombia routes. Most people don't even notice the "warning."
198 Klkla : It will be interesting to see if this actually goes through and if there is a back up plan in case some parts of the deal are objected to by the gover
199 C010T3 : But travel agents do. In a market like Brazil, where low-yielding passengers generally purchase their tickets at travel agencies, that warning gains
200 SHUPirate1 : Cost, sure, but wouldn't that be factored in by the cost of entry onto the chopper? As for luggage, how do they do it now?
201 C010T3 : I don't think that the Brazilian government will have a say in that. The bilateral agreement does not forbid that, so the only institution that has a
202 LipeGIG : Why to connect at JFK with airport change if they got so many other options thru places like MIA, IAD, BOS, ORD and even JFK ?
203 AVLAirlineFreq : Any guess as to why US will continue to fly LGA-ILM?
204 Cubsrule : You pick it up and take it with you.
205 DeltaMD90 : I am a huge DL fan but I do see a problem with the whole LGA to JFK thing. Now I do agree they will gain a lot of loyalty in the NYC area but why fly
206 STT757 : Neither Airtrain EWR or Airtrain JFK connect the terminals inside the airport on the sterile side of security, and we're proposing to do just that fr
207 Commavia : Some initial thoughts (catching up on this already-going thread!) ... Definitely a big move for Delta, and one that has long been rumored. This defini
208 United1 : US would actually get more room if they moved AA to the former NW gates, UA has 3 gates vs AAs 5 or 6 (UA, US, F9 and AA are all in that center pier)
209 Viscount724 : Why? Isn't CLT still the largest US hub? Why should it be more difficult for US to sell Brazil via their major hub than it is for DL to do the same v
210 LipeGIG : As you like to get numbers to come up with assumptions, If Rio and Sao Paulo got the same amount of flights, yes, you would be right.... But... Sao P
211 Flighty : It is both. Exactly, so that is why I never understood why US has zero chance in Brazil. US is just about as well positioned physically as any airlin
212 Panamair : If the GRU route authority works as described in some earlier posts, Delta is not giving up anything in Brazil. They would keep all their GRU frequen
213 FlyPNS1 : True, but if AA keeps sitting around waiting, they may eventually find there's nothing good left to buy. As others have pointed out, the only way for
214 Us330 : There's also the lack of public funds for such a project. Realistically, what I could see happening is extending the JFK AirTrain from the Jamaica st
215 DeltaMD90 : don't forget STL! But back on topic, why does DL shift from fuel efficient props to inefficient RJs on short haul routes? Is it a consumer thing?
216 DeltaL1011man : If it doesn't have mainline then its gone. IIRC CLT,PHL,BOS,PIT and DCA are it. Hard to move an asset if you dont have any assets at said airport to
217 DeltAirlines : US' press release specifically calls out that they will continue to fly LGA-ILM. FWIW, PHL-LGA does not have a single mainline flight on it - it's al
218 Jfk777 : Tokyo from PHL or PHX or both would be great but A332 would be payload challegened to make such a flight from either city. US has had many chances to
219 DeltaL1011man : I see that now. All I saw was "No changes are planned for US Airways' mainline flight levels at LaGuardia." and assumed PHL was mainline.
220 Sparky35805 : Not so sure that DL will drop DCA-HSV.Their loads are good with mostly full fare passengers.If they do,US which has 4 daily RTs will probably go to mo
221 DeltaMD90 : I mean historically. They were always quick to replace EMBs with CRJs, the ATRs are gone, the BE1 and DH8 flying is gone. I know there are other fact
222 DeltaL1011man : IMHO DL will keep Hubs, the 3 big FL citys(MCO,FLL,TPA....maybe PBI) and BOS. Outside of those It isn't likely. I do believe that we may see a limite
223 Post contains links Egcarter : Here's the NY Times' summary of the proceedings: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/nyregion/13laguardia.html
224 MAH4546 : AA is the largest single airline at LAX and, combined with MQ, AA/MQ is the revenue leader at LAX. LAX is not their weakness. Its one of their strong
225 DeltAirlines : DCA-HSV is going to US Airways. DL needs to have the slots come from somewhere - those JAN/GRR/HSV flights are going to be shifted over to US. DL has
226 MAH4546 : I still think you are way over-stating the "importance," but so be it, we'll agree to disagree. Central America and Colombia are also markets where t
227 FlyPNS1 : But in the bigger picture, AA has not been able to grow at LAX and some of AA's LAX routes are getting hammered with more to come. The only two slots
228 MAH4546 : What is getting hammered? AA is still the market leader in many key markets, including Miami, New York, and Boston; has a strong presence on routes t
229 Flighty : In some ways, I think AA is a bit like WN. Both have been really reluctant to break out of their traditional strategies. WN covers the sub-premium ci
230 Commavia : ? In the last decade, AA has grown dramatically at LAX - far more than any of the airport's other major U.S. carriers. Since 2001, AA's traffic at LA
231 FlyASAGuy2005 : I most certainly think this weighs in a bit. Then again, business is business. "Keep Delta My Delta Aside"- we all remember that - these are two carr
232 Flighty : If my theory is right, then AA is covering many routes out of LAX just because as part of their larger national strategy, they have to. AA's big nati
233 Altairf28 : Based on this post: the cities that are going from DL to US are CVG, DSM, GRR and MSN. YUL, MIA and YOW have DCA service currently but not on DL (AC,
234 Cubsrule : With respect to LAX specifically, it's probably worth adding YYZ (film industry) and BNA (music industry) to that list.
235 146Crew : Colgan closed their ITH Crew base.
236 146Crew : No cash changed hands.
237 FlyPNS1 : But has only gone from a marketshare of 14% to 16.4% from 2001 to 2008. Not a big gain despite the major pullbacks by UA. Yes, AA has its niche at LA
238 MSPNWA : Nice for DL to grab a big piece of LGA, but what's the point when JFK owns the international routes?
239 LHCVG : That's what I was thinking -- aren't they going to lose a good chunk of customers? Or are they just going to bank on everyone being ok with getting r
240 DeltaL1011man : Hardly. UA and AA have the most to lose in LA. DL might be in the best place of them all because the few markets they are in they likely wont ever ha
241 FutureUScapt : While true that ___ (insert number) more destinations have nonstop service to ATL than CLT, the destinations that provide any meaningful internationa
242 FlyASAGuy2005 : This seems to come up quite often. JFK and LGA are two different markets. This doesn't have much to do with DL's international operations at JFK. To
243 MAH4546 : UA and AA have the most to lose because they have the most there. AA's position in LAX is not being threatened by anybody, and especially not Delta.
244 Enilria : So? DCA is the dominant domestic airport, that is born out be the massive fare differences to BWI and IAD (back when it was cheap at IAD in the FLYI
245 DeltaL1011man : The especially not Delta comment is not needed and going to end up with a book by WT about a DL hub at LAX(which no one here really wants to see.....
246 Commavia : And that, right there, pretty much sums up AA's strategy. It is reflected in their network choices in Asia and Europe, their hub systems and schedule
247 Odysseus9001 : I remember Delta did some trial runs of 767-300ERs into DCA. Would part of their strategy be to upgauge DCA aircraft and fly fewer frequencies? Odysse
248 MAH4546 : Of course. Let's ignore the fact that AA/MQ is the revenue leader at LAX, bringing in more total revenue than any other airline at LAX, and more reve
249 Commavia : Hardly. AA doesn't even compete with Southwest in many places out of LAX. Southwest is stronger to San Francisco, San Jose and Denver, while AA is st
250 DeltaL1011man : The few markets that aren't hubs (MCO,TPA,FLL,MSY) are very strong Delta citys that IMO wont ever lose LAX flights. any market that has WN in it is l
251 MAH4546 : Want to bother supporting your argument with actual facts? AA does not fly LAX-PHX/PDX/SEA, so why is this relevant? But, here, let's see some facts:
252 Cws818 : UA and AA, at least, occupy positions of strength and market awareness/relevance in LA. DL is a second string player in the LA market. You could say
253 Commavia : And that's fine. Nobody said Delta would be leaving any of those markets, just that if we're going to call AA weak or in danger, Delta would definite
254 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's pretty obvious and I don't think anyone is contending that.
255 LipeGIG : There's nothing to blame. I make my point and that's all i want. If you don't understood, i'm sorry. CO also got as a winner because they just proved
256 MAH4546 : Seriously? PHL-GIG? They can't even make CLT-GIG work, and now we actually have hints from US that it might not even launch, and you expect PHL-GIG t
257 Incitatus : "Officially" I agree with you. Like I posted in another occasion, there is a question of intent. The Brazilian government may say nothing and do noth
258 LAXintl : How did all you guys manage to go from LGA & DCA slot trade to debating LAX? lol
259 LipeGIG : You're looking to me as a optimist, but i'm looking how this deal might be made. I'm sorry if you don't like it Mark, but i expect US to ask for more
260 USAirALB : I expect ALB and BUF to stay, ALB for government and BUF for biz. IDK about SYR and ROC
261 FlyASAGuy2005 : Surprisingly (well, not surprisingly) it seemed to start from a single comment but it is neither here nor there IMO, as far as the actual topic at ha
262 C010T3 : That will happen either way. GRU's capacity at the peak hours desired by US is exhausted.
263 DeltAirlines : And where would they get the slots? Today, US Airways operated 125 flights from LGA to cities not named Philadelphia, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Boston,
264 MAH4546 : The only reason they would ask for more GIG frequencies if if they trade their current GIG frequencies to Delta and want to try CLT-GIG a second time
265 USAirALB : Your right..but I have a hard time seeing US let LGA go. You know what I mean? They have flown the route since conception...
266 TheGMan : It has been stated US shuttle goes to Marine air, and mainline goes to terminal B Probably because they operate as commuters... Well now all this has
267 DeltAirlines : It will be a bit different not seeing a ton of props with the Flag on the tail (only to be replaced by a never ending stream of everyone's "favourite
268 DeltaMD90 : I'm sorry, but would AA really want US? Besides a horrible redundant northeast, CLT may be a good addition, though MIA already does a good job servin
269 MAH4546 : Honestly, yes, they probably do. They want the CLT hubs, they would love the additional presence in New York, and the Airbus planes, while not compat
270 DeltAirlines : Agree it makes a good bit of sense. CLT would give them the north-south hub on the east coast - something that they don't do a great job at right now
271 BHMNONREV : Had not heard this, and will be very sorry to see the flight go as the 6pm departure from BHM was perfectly timed to connect with the UA flight to Du
272 DCA-ROCguy : Should this transaction go through, all four of the larger Upstate NY--LGA markets will likely continue, but as Delta Connection routes. Delta's press
273 Jetlanta : But you really have to count Northwest, don't you? To not do so basically is to pretend that 2009 didn't happen. Times change. The industry changes.
274 C010T3 : How's that?
275 PlanesNTrains : Or, perhaps operate, say, 3 daily AVL-LGA and 1 daily AVL-JFK for international connections. Doesn't seem like that would be too difficult in the gra
276 Pensacolaguy : I agree with all the ABOVE responses. I hope this actually happens. PNS has waited for years to have nonstop service to DCA. This route is badly need
277 Commavia : Yes and no. I have no doubt that AA would love parts of USAirways, namely: - Reagan and LaGuardia (even after this announcement) slots - Shuttle - Ch
278 Usairways85 : While I doubt AA wants anything to do with PHL and I can see a bulk of the TA routes going to JFK except LHR and a few others I highly doubt JFK as a
279 Davescj : currently -- helicopter is almost no luggge (if any) allowed Now -- to change airports -- you're on your own, claim and re check baggage. Once DL has
280 Us330 : Let's also not ignore the state of New York's financial issues right now. US wouldn't be able to charge a premium on the ALB-LGA market simply becaus
281 Enilria : OK, I want clarity on this. Way up above, somebody said that there is no longer an aircraft size distinction on any of the LGA slots. So, you can run
282 MAH4546 : The entire operation does not need to. All AA needs to do is move most of the trans-Atlantic operation and add some key domestic routes. Nothing huge
283 Revelation : Indeed. One has to look at JFK and LGA as seperate markets that happen to be 11 miles apart from each other. The only synergy I see is that some New
284 MaverickM11 : The only way DL will get any pricing power is if it underuses its new LGA slots, which could be good for everyone. If they replace every US flight, i
285 USPIT10L : Incorrect. US has had most of these flights only since 1972, when they aquired Mohawk. Allegheny was founded in 1939 and began passenger service in 1
286 VictorKilo : I downloaded the US and DL schedules, and I count 130 US flights (not including PHL/BOS/CLT/PIT/DCA/ILM - but including BWI), so it looks like there'
287 Panamair : The Shuttle goes to the MAT but US Mainline will move to Terminal D (stated in multiple places and also in AboutUS). Terminal D at LGA is the current
288 DeltaL1011man : and i bet AA leads in DAL,MIA, and NYC and I bet Delta leads in ATL,DTW,MSP,MEM,CVG and SLC.......no S@@t. Just because they have a higher market sha
289 Post contains links EI787 : Please continue here: Delta - US Airways Trade LGA/DCA Slots (Part 2) (by EI787 Aug 13 2009 in Civil Aviation) Many thanks. Any additional posts that
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