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The Southwest Bid For Frontier Is Dead Or Delayed  
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16393 times:

It appears that WN is going to either retract their bid this morning, or ask the judge for a week long extension to the auction bidding date. The nail in the coffin is from SWAPA. WN's original bid included a condition that both Unions must agree voluntarily (no binding arbitration) to SLI integration.

The original labor contingency clause required that Southwest's unions and F9 unions agreed to a new master contract and SLI prior to closing the deal. Both F9's lawyers and the judge were worried about this provision, and turned it into a hard deadline - some agreement had to be reached last night midnight. And it wasn't.

FAPA - Frontier's airline pilots association - went in apparently asking for job protection, fencing and some pay protection. SWAPA's position was that they would agree to variable SLI, but apparently with a very low variable. My understanding (hearsay only) is that they set the condition that if a furlough occurred, the most senior F9 captain would go before a junior Southwest F0. They would guarantee that F9 pilots would be paid the same as First Officers at WN until the master list integration was done. Similarly sticky issues in ters of seat protection were also a problem. Needless to say, they did not agree.

This gives the company three choices. They can either submit the bid without a labor contingency clause (which Kelly says will ruin the company), get the judge to agree to a extension (possible, but causes issues), or withdraw the bid.

It should be a very interesting day.

199 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16389 times:

Here's a source:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s/0814dnbussouthwest.d75bbefb.html



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16274 times:

Yep, I started hearing yesterday morning that WN was being told that unless the contingency occurred before the bid, their offer was dead, because investors did not want to give the company in F9, just to have the deal collapse when the unions balked.

It remains to be seen if Judge Drain will alllow the unions to move the auction. There are a lot of people already in New York for the auction, and you have to think that Rjet might have the upper hand, given that F9's unions are playing hardball (they sit on the secured and unsecured committe), RJet sits on both, and leasing companies (whom WN would shaft) sit on both.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16273 times:

I guess I don't understand the issue here, or why there is a labor contingency in the first place.

What leverage would the F9 pilots union have to stop the deal? Are they a creditor of F9?



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16243 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
I guess I don't understand the issue here, or why there is a labor contingency in the first place.

Southwest made a big booboo. They decided to give their union the ability to veto the deal, and their union just did, more or less.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
What leverage would the F9 pilots union have to stop the deal? Are they a creditor of F9?

WN's agreement says that SWAPA has to be agree with FAPA for SLI, without going to binding arbitration for it, with all the labor messiness that causes.

That did not occur. Hence the deal may be dead.

A good question to ask right now, is where is FAPA in terms of agreement with Rjet's unions?


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8867 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16239 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
What leverage would the F9 pilots union have to stop the deal? Are they a creditor of F9?

It sounds like WN was only truly interested in the deal if a labor accord could be reached - it's a condition of the Southwest pilot's union that there must be some sort of labor agreement in place for WN to buy out another airline.

Given that as of this morning, Southwest was not able to reach a deal with the Frontier pilots, Southwest would have been in violation with their contract with their pilots. Given that, Southwest had written into their bid that if the labor agreement couldn't take place, that they would withdraw their bid.

Nothing necessarily on the creditors side - it's more to do with labor. WN wasn't interested in buying F9 only to run them as a completely separate airline not meant to combine with WN.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6726 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16166 times:

Well, this is the second time that WN pilots have kicked up a fuss and affected the plans of the company - WestJet / Volaris - code share and now the F9 purchase, things at WN are sounding more and more like the "Rest of the Leagcy Airlines".
Methinks something has to be done, hopefully it will not mirror the "Rest of the Legacy Airlines" modus operandi.

As for the requested delay, I think the judge should reject any delay, WN, Republic or whoever entered a bid should have had their ducks all lined up in a row before submittion. F9's stint in Chpt.11 should not be delayed any longer especially by a last minute player who is not fully prepared. In the long run, no delay may be good or it may be bad, but its the rules and they should be followed.

The horse trading by pilots groups have the potential to go well beyond the purchase of F9, certainely WN pilots union has been in the news recently, which had nothing to do with F9, so lets keep it simple, F9 want to emerge and fly on it's own, WN wants to buy, now is the time to put up or shut up.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16126 times:

WN is a company that has capitulated to the labor unions for far too long; 88% of those employed by the airline are unionized, and most of them are compensated at the top level relative to the industry. WN management has bent over backwards (to put it politely) in their submission to the pilots for years, but this ought to be the straw that breaks the camels back.

This is so rank amateur, GK should be very embarrassed.

Look at US, have they and their former HP pilots even reconciled yet? Even the DL and NW pilots merger didn't happen over night.

To expect pilots to hash out a deal in a few days is adolescent at best, but then to stake the entire validity of a put up or shut up merger acquisition which would provide large amounts of future revenue for the company, and state that they have to get the unions permission before they in the management are allowed to run the airline, well that's just ignorant.

Inmates running the asylum.

Now if it's the F9 pilots just trying to down a WN bid, then they are in the vast minority compared to the lot of WN pilots and they really shouldn't have much say in the matter.

[Edited 2009-08-13 08:06:15]

User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16129 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
Given that as of this morning, Southwest was not able to reach a deal with the Frontier pilots, Southwest would have been in violation with their contract with their pilots. Given that, Southwest had written into their bid that if the labor agreement couldn't take place, that they would withdraw their bid.

Actually, not true. WN voluntarily put in the contingency. Their labor agreements do not require pilot agreement, and no sane CEO *cough*cough*Herb* would ever allow a union a veto over mergers and acquisitions.

Don't underestimate this. SWAPA just slapped WN in the face really really hard. Given that they turned down a best in business contract earlier on this year, the days of a non-militant union at WN appear to be over.


User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16018 times:



Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
SWAPA

What is that?

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
SLI integration

That a 3 letter code for Los Alamitos

For a thread starter to be loaded with acronyms that are unexplained is quite frustrating. Please clarify?

MTTY (many thanks to you)


User currently offlineWWTRAVELER99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16018 times:

I have said this before and I will repeat myself again. What is there to prevent WN from removing the condition, then just lay-off F9 pilots as they remove the aircraft from service. This is not a merger but a buy-out. I have not heard that REP has any type of agreement with F9 pilots either. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.


WW


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16018 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 6):
Well, this is the second time that WN pilots have kicked up a fuss and affected the plans of the company - WestJet / Volaris - code share and now the F9 purchase, things at WN are sounding more and more like the "Rest of the Leagcy Airlines".

Yes. This entire episode has surprised me by how much WN has acted like traditional legacy carriers. From the entire notion of building feed, and building hubs to how their unions have handled this, to WN's dogged work to avoid committing to any employee retention at all, the entire experience has been surreal.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15927 times:



Quoting WWTRAVELER99 (Reply 10):
What is there to prevent WN from removing the condition, then just lay-off F9 pilots as they remove the aircraft from service.

They could, but it would destroy the entire reason they are going into DEN in the first place - access to that market. They would get crucified in the press (rightly so). Judge Drain would also not consider this a acceptable form of "continuing F9 as a ongoing concern" which is what the auction process is designed to do.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 9):
For a thread starter to be loaded with acronyms that are unexplained is quite frustrating. Please clarify?

SLI = seniority list integration (important if the companies are merged).
SWA = Southwest airlines

Quoting WWTRAVELER99 (Reply 10):
I have not heard that REP has any type of agreement with F9 pilots either.

This is the million dollar question, however there are different elements in Republics bid, and the judge apparently did not have the same concerns with Republic's bid as he did with WN's bid.


User currently offlineDfanucci From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15821 times:

I'm hearing now that SWAPA pilots have no problem with WN walking away from the bid as the pilots feel they have given enough....

My gut tells me that if an extention is given, WN is going to get Frontier.

Right now, RJET should be doing a full court press with the creditors in tow....


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15821 times:

A good quote to explain it from a WN union member:

Quote:

We think pay protection and a job is enough and really aren't willing to give more.

Pay protection = being paid as a First Officer at WN rather then a captain. Seat protection, but not for the 20% of F9 pilots that would get furloughed as part of WN's winning the bid.


User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15785 times:



Quoting Dfanucci (Reply 13):
I'm hearing now that SWAPA pilots have no problem with WN walking away from the bid as the pilots feel they have given enough....

My gut tells me that if an extension is given, WN is going to get Frontier.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but if your first sentence is true, why do you think the pilots will compromise enough for a deal to be worked out if an extension is granted?


User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1297 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15789 times:
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Quoting WWTRAVELER99 (Reply 10):
I have not heard that REP has any type of agreement with F9 pilots either. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.

I heard that FAPA had checked off all of the conditions that were asked by RAH and signed a TA with the IBT.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6836 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15792 times:



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 4):

WN's agreement says that SWAPA has to be agree with FAPA for SLI, without going to binding arbitration for it, with all the labor messiness that causes.

Why is everybody blaming the WN pilots? It says an agreement has to be reached. It takes two sides to reach an agreement and FAPA is 50% of that.

BTW, how many times have I said that the F9 pilots are key to this deal?

I will say again, that if F9 pilots are getting any kind of seniority integration they should grab it. I blame the F9 pilots. A senior Republic Captain makes as much as a second year Copilot at WN. F9's pilots are playing with fire. They are SO MUCH better off getting anything from WN. None of the other labor groups even have the option of seniority integration. They are all going to be "hired as needed".

If this bid dies because F9 pilots went in asking for all this stuff, I hope everybody remembers this in a couple of years if Republic decides running an airline was a bad idea.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6836 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15704 times:

What really doesn't add up is that in the conference call, the WN VPs said that WN was ready to have the auction on Tuesday, but that it was delayed because of Republic or F9. How could this issue have been resolved in less than 24 hours? Something doesn't add up.

User currently offlineDfanucci From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15667 times:

Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 15):
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but if your first sentence is true, why do you think the pilots will compromise enough for a deal to be worked out if an extension is granted?

Only because I think Kelly want's Frontier, badly.

I don't think this is coming down to pay. I think this is coming down to job security....

A raise is nice, but having a job is better. I'm guessing that FAPA is showing thier complete trust in Menke at this point.

Of course, I suck at reading tea leaves....  

[Edited 2009-08-13 08:33:39]

User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15634 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 17):
Why is everybody blaming the WN pilots? It says an agreement has to be reached. It takes two sides to reach an agreement and FAPA is 50% of that.

Hmm. I have one carrier that wants to run the company as is, wants to be the largest carrier in Denver, has not promised layoffs, and has promised seat protection and fencing.

Hmm. I have one carrier that is going to destroy the company, has not consistantly made money in Denver, has promised layoffs, and will pay me as a junior employee and let someone else take my job in two years.

Which one would you take?

Quoting Enilria (Reply 17):
I blame the F9 pilots.

Of course you do.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 17):
They are SO MUCH better off getting anything from WN.

Don't you think that's for the pilots to determine?

Quoting Enilria (Reply 17):
If this bid dies because F9 pilots went in asking for all this stuff, I hope everybody remembers this in a couple of years if Republic decides running an airline was a bad idea.

Absolutely. And WN will come in Denver like fire from heaven if they get spurned here. But if WN's pilots really are insisting on second class, with no layoff protections, and no seniority, I don't see that FAPA has a hard choice here.

And if in two years, WN is still behaving like a legacy, and spiraling down, this will be where it started.


User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15584 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):
Look at US, have they and their former HP pilots even reconciled yet? Even the DL and NW pilots merger didn't happen over night.

I'm not sure if you really want to use either as a glowing example of how things can be done. Both companies are still struggling and having angry divisive labor does not help. At least Southwest management is smarter than that and knows how important it is to a unified quality profitable company. I know the in thing since the 80s with Reagan has been to hate on organized labor but do people even understand why? or do they just blindly bash all the citizens they want to treat like slaves. To you all anti labor it seems like the economic and social system you want to go back to is an aristocracy. Our plutocracy is going strong since the 80s though, thanks for that


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15548 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 18):
What really doesn't add up is that in the conference call, the WN VPs said that WN was ready to have the auction on Tuesday, but that it was delayed because of Republic or F9. How could this issue have been resolved in less than 24 hours? Something doesn't add up.

What doesn't add up is that FAPA went to Dallas once the bid was announced wanting to talk Turkey. WN spoke in platitutes, and then told them to come back once the binding offer was done. They did, and then SWAPA told them that they were not going to negotiate until after the deal was done - at which point SWAPA would have much more leverage.

But then the creditors committees told WN that they considered that contingency clause a deal breaker, because it could lead to a situation where F9 is sold, WN walks out without penalty when the union acts in union-like ways, and F9 is left with no choice but liquidation.

Quoting Dfanucci (Reply 19):

Only because I think Kelly want's Frontier, badly.

Kelly has a really big problem. Killing this deal is a sign/and makes/ the union very powerful. They already turned down what is easily the best labor deal in the country, because it wasn't enough.

I think there is a non-trivial chance that Kelly pulls the contingency. But I also think that this declares nuclear war with the union. They never should have agreed to put it in the first place. Anyone who has ever studied bankruptcies, or been through one immediately recognized that this clause would cause huge problems.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15509 times:

Without any protections, the FRONTIER pilots will all likely get seriously hosed in the deal. SWAPA is making a feeble attempt to take care of Frontier while attempting to cover up their total arrogance towards the matter. Good for SWAPA/FPA for standing firm on "no deal" if there is... "no deal." The attitude by SWAPA that the Frontier folks should be "lucky" is just like American/TWA. Look where that ended up.

ALL Frontier employees are better off with the Republic deal anyhow. It's clear WN only wants assets and facilities and the Republic deal would, it seems, keep the airline relatively whole and not chop it up.


User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15515 times:



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
Quoting EbbUK (Reply 9):
For a thread starter to be loaded with acronyms that are unexplained is quite frustrating. Please clarify?

SLI = seniority list integration (important if the companies are merged).
SWA = Southwest airlines

Thank you. SWA I know of. SWAPA was what I was unclear of. I have since deduced that it is Southwest Airlines Pilots Association


25 AirRyan : Yeah, however the obvious question is how long would RW operating F9 just be delaying their inevitable demise anyways?
26 Mayor : And what is wrong with how DL has handled the labor concerns during this merger? Any delays that have taken place can be placed at the feet of the IA
27 AirFrnt : Southwest already has the highest labor costs in the industry. If that's not enough to keep the union happy (and it wasn't, they shot down a insanely
28 Dfanucci : Why would RW kill F9? It makes absolutely no sense. Why fix something that is not broke? Yup, and really the only way he could save any sort of face
29 Sldispatcher : After this many years in the business, shouldn't we start lumping WN into the "legacy" category anyway? Other than no first class or seat assignment,
30 Tripleboom : This is far too conspiracy theorist for me, but it's one of those ideas that popped into my head the moment WN put in the non-binding bid. Could WN ha
31 Ouboy79 : I think the majority of everyone firmly believes in 2-3 years Republic will combine the Frontier and Midwest ops into a new carrier and then spin it
32 BNAtraveler : For how long? RJET appears to be setting themselves up like DH. We'll see what happens, but I'd raise someone $200 that WN is in business longer than
33 AirFrnt : How so. Remember that WN is talking about nuking 20% day one. The agreement with the unions means that this 20% is absolute bottom on the WN totem po
34 KarlB737 : So given the state of the industry how long before WN management bursts that financial bubble?
35 AirFrnt : Given that the unions just slapped them down in public? I am not sure it's possible to pop that bubble without Bankruptcy.
36 USAirALB : I hope it is not dead, but I have a feeling it its.
37 BNAtraveler : You and I agree, ultimately. The question is how is going with WN different than RJET after 24 months? - WN has cash to last - WN has cash to expand
38 Sldispatcher : So they haven't been trying to do that for the last 2 years? I agree that they will cut their nose off to spite their face.....but WN better hold on.
39 KingCavalier : Some say WN has been out for blood since they returned to DEN. However, WN lost $38 million in DEN during the first quarter of this year. WN should s
40 Sldispatcher : That would mean that none of the F9 executives would stay to do so? I do think it would be foolish for RAH to move the team EAST..... They just need
41 BNAtraveler : I do not disagree, however they have just launched a bid for F9 in which they are willing to pay at least $170M *MORE* than the $38M they have alread
42 AirFrnt : You still miss the point. WN has not committed to the idea of hiring even 1 employee above what their turnover is. Rember that before this deal, WN h
43 Sldispatcher : Amen!
44 USAirALB : WN should just make a go at FL..
45 Tugger : Republic may support WN's request for an extension, that is if they want the cash Southwest is offering. I know if I were Republic I would support the
46 AirFrnt : Umm. Because Republic wants F9 as cheaply as possible? IF WN pulls out of the bid, Republic wins, because they have the stalking horse.
47 KingCavalier : I know you're joking, but F9 and YX are starting their codeshare on September 8. YX flight numbers on F9 will start with ABQ, BIL, BZN, COS, DEN, DRO
48 Dfanucci : My guess would be that this would tell the whole story of Republics intentions. If they okay the extention then I would guess that they are not behin
49 AirRyan : Organized labor is a form of socialism - when does that ever work in a capitalistic economy? Labor unions live in a different world from the rest of
50 KarlB737 : Does this position come squarely from Gary Kelly. Specifically the "arrogance" is that Kelly's style. How would Herb have handled this or would he ha
51 KingCavalier : True, but DEN yields have been in the toilet for a long time. Fares are at a record 14-year low in DEN, yet F9 has still been profitable. How long is
52 WNCrew : So after allllll these posts about how WN couldn't care less about labor... and here we are, dead in the water BECAUSE of labor. How ironic..... BTW,
53 AirFrnt : We did. It was called UAL. It didn't last long. WN tried to get around McCaskill-Bond by making the offer contingent on FAPA and SWAPA agreeing volun
54 KingCavalier : Except Sean Menke will still be running F9. I don't know why you hate RAH and F9 teaming up. I wish them all the best. RAH needs F9 and F9 needs RAH.
55 AirFrnt : I never stated WN didn't care about labor, in fact I noted that WN was being very careful to leave F9 pilots with absolutely no guarantees about the
56 BNAtraveler : I'm not as 'black helicopters in the sky' as WNCrew , but I do think that the biggest lesson learned by WN out of the review of F9's financials was t
57 AirFrnt : [quote=KingCavalier,reply=54]RAH needs F9 and F9 needs RAH. I believe RAH needs Sean Menke to help with YX (MKE/MCI) and Sean Menke needs Bryan Bedfor
58 Atomsareenough : Yeah, but if they want F9, then they'd want WN to back out, so their $108.75 million bid is the only one on the table, which means they'd be picking
59 BNAtraveler : Please post a link to RJET's bid full bid.
60 Enilria : Three points: 1) The pilots are talking about seniority integration. That is SO MUCH better than anybody else at F9 would get in a deal with WN. They
61 BNAtraveler : Ultimately that isn't the issue in a down economy; F9 has been making good decisions but in order to run the airline they need lots of cash to invest
62 Flashmeister : The contingency was likely put in there because WN knew that without addressing it up front, they'd have some difficult questions to answer for the c
63 AirFrnt : It's in the bankruptcy docket. I am really getting sick of this WN talking point. Every single major merger for the last three years has pivoted arou
64 AirRyan : As turbulent as the airline industry has always been, I don't know if Herb would have ever faced something similar to that of what GK now faces in to
65 AirFrnt : Actually the reverse is true. The creditors committee told WN yesterday that they would not accept a bid with that contingency in it. Apparently the
66 Post contains links Flashmeister : Just saw this in the Denver Post: "Right now, I would say we're miles apart," SWAPA President Carl Kuwitzky said of talks with the Frontier Airlines P
67 KingCavalier : You make it sound like WN is offering charity to F9. Again, we are talking about F9 mainline pay, not REP pay. You might as well include Lynx pilot p
68 Alphascan : Good point. OnePass still enjoys a very high market penetration in the DEN market. 1, Sure, but if it were organically that easy, why buy F9? 2. They
69 Wwtraveler99 : From the Dallas Morning News: "Frontier’s pilot union rejected the offer from SWAPA that included job protections for ALL Frontier pilots, pay incre
70 AirFrnt : Herb navigating deregulation makes this management team look like kids selling lemonade on the street. They've spend about 1/5th the amount of time U
71 Atomsareenough : So, you don't have anything specific, then. I think it is a cop-out answer because it's completely facile and devoid of context. I think it can be pa
72 AirFrnt : The devil, as always, is in the details. This translates to WN only agreeing to pay senior captains what FOs are making today. The protection only ex
73 Yellowtail : I like your thinking here....
74 Fleet Service : Really? The next time you're riding a city bus and the engine cuts out and can't be restarted what happens? He opens the doors, you get off and wait
75 Dfanucci : I just get the feeling that if this thing is extended, Frontier will be no more.... What's your take?
76 PlanesNTrains : I remain unconvinced that either deal is the Holy Grail for Frontier. I think they offer very different things to the employees of F9, but ultimately
77 Alphascan : If you look back over the past 8 years you will find an employee group at F9 who have weathered perfect storm after perfect storm in the most precari
78 KingCavalier : No, but wouldn't you agree that F9 has probably been WN's first true competition? If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em. Is it that much of an unknown? You
79 413X3 : Because Southwest pilots were also looking out for the Frontier pilots. I think that is a great example of the kind of solidarity workers need. And y
80 Post contains links Atomsareenough : Here's a source: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/steffy/6565253.html
81 Dfanucci : Latest is that SWAPA is talking directly with the Lynx pilots.... Wow....
82 KingCavalier : If WN pilots were truly looking out for F9 pilots then why are we here today? Everybody's out for number one. There's no difference with SWAPA.[Edite
83 413X3 : As much as free marketeers don't want to admit, industry consolidation is a necessity in a diluted marketplace. Southwest wants what Frontier has, an
84 AirFrnt : Republic's in a position to deal, and has a binding bid. WN has not done their homework here. Pure and simple. They tried to get around a law, and go
85 Barney Captain : I'm going to have to respectfully ask that you stop this repeated line of rhetoric. Have you read our rejected tentative agreement? I have. Word for
86 KingCavalier : I wonder what good that will do if the deadline was midnight last night. SWAPA's president stated the two sides were far apart. Unless judge Drain ok
87 AirFrnt : I'm confused.. No... wait... you are. SWAPA is demanding a staple of F9 to the bottom of their seniority list. Unless, you are trying to make the arg
88 KingCavalier : I don't know what you mean by bankruptcy addicted. This is F9's first time in bankruptcy. I'd say bankruptcy fatigued at this point but not addicted.
89 Post contains links Atomsareenough : This is apparently the email that was sent out to the WN Pilots Group: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...resh-email-from-swapa-on-dela.html So, i
90 AirFrnt : Mariner and I were discussing this all as it started to leak yesterday. He was skeptical that this could happen last minute. I think he may be pleasa
91 Fleet Service : Let WN walk away and let Republic have F9. We'll see what the opinions are like after six months of Republic calling the shots.
92 Ikramerica : They have no leverage. Well, they can leverage themselves out of a job, I guess. Not sure that's a booboo. Why not make sure your loyal pilots are ok
93 KingCavalier : Really? Southwest was buying Frontier because they destroyed them, and that is good will?
94 PlanesNTrains : I don't think I said otherwise. I was speaking of the industry, not a specific culture. In the end, there is a breaking point for every person and ev
95 Alphascan : Ikra, I've enjoyed reading your posts for years. If I played the "respect rating" game, you'd be on my list. But that is the most inaccurate and unin
96 AirRyan : Perhaps that was a bad analogy because most public transit departments probably are not true for profit business, often subsidized by the public and
97 AirFrnt : Actually, the committee told WN that they would not accept a bid with that contingency in it. WN tried to push it through yesterday to get around tha
98 Post contains images Mariner : Yeh, it's sparrow fart and I've got my coffee and I'm grumpy because I was getting messages from the US until 3 am - asking me what is going on. I'm
99 MSNDC9 : I'm pretty sure the record shows it is F9 has been doing the destroying in this case, not WN. WN is trying to buy F9 because they can't compete effec
100 Post contains links OPNLguy : Update.... http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...n-denver-new-york-indy-and-da.html
101 AirFrnt : Someone on the Dallas Air Blog put it far better then I have:
102 Dartland : Actually, they have a ton of leverage, or else this thread wouldn't exist. The bankruptcy court basically said they wouldn't accept the WN bid with t
103 AirFrnt : Pretty interesting. It sounds like the auction is moving forward, albeit at a slower pace then expected. I do have to say, mad mad props to the credi
104 AirFrnt : I actually really underestimated this, because I didn't forsee the creditors committee stepping up and delivering the ultimatum. I'm told that severa
105 OPNLguy : Mongo don't know. Mongo is only pawn in game of life...
106 Mariner : There is a rumor running round that the FAPA and the RAH IBT (pilots) have come to a deal. It's a rumor. I have no linkable source. mariner
107 MSNDC9 : Aren't we all...
108 Atomsareenough : That was a much better critique, thank you. I still disagree with you, but at least I can see your line of reasoning. The regional turbo-prop subsidi
109 Sldispatcher : Which makes sense..the company with the 90%+ load factor is doing well..while the one with 50-60% load factor is the excess....seems like to me the l
110 F9mechanic : Menke is only using F9 as a stepping stone to make himself look good, F9 emerges from BK under either REP or WN he gets the job done thus looking mor
111 TheGreatChecko : Unless they mean to someone they had on the jumpseat or to management, I don't know who they could be talking to, they are currently nonunion.
112 Mariner : Sean Menke had been at Frontier about three months when the original Airbus deal (A318/A319) was initiated. He wasn't even COO at that point, he was
113 PlanesNTrains : If WN had 50-60% load factors but was making money, I'd say that they had every right to stay and fight. But if they are indeed losing millions but y
114 Post contains links and images Dfanucci : Hang on folks, the IBT is starting to bark. I was wondering when this shoe was going to drop. From the AP: "While Frontier pilots are in a position to
115 Mrocktor : Being anti-union does not mean being anti-labor. I do not know a single anti-union person who does not think having no union is better for all concer
116 Buddys747 : You can have your "opinions" about WN's pilots unions all you want, but keep your right wing comments about unions in general to yourself, as this ha
117 Enilria : Sure, that's exactly right; but WN isn't in Ch11 and they aren't going to damage the relations with their existing pilots. The company doesn't really
118 AirFrnt : Tell me, have you ever worked hard, got a promotion, and then deliberately let everyone under you get destroyed simply because you thought that would
119 Mrocktor : When governments give unions powers they would not have in a free market (i.e. the power to keep a company from hiring non-union employees), business
120 Mariner : Once again, I cannot predict the future. I assume that a spin-off is their plan now. Whether it is their plan in two years or three or four years is
121 PlanesNTrains : RP seems to be in the enviable position of not having to say a whole helluva lot - they can let WN be on the defensive, and as long as the clock tick
122 AirFrnt : Business decisions are always political. I disagree with unions simply because division of labor is inefficient, prevents cohesive movement and encou
123 413X3 : It's only a fact because the American system has redistributed wealth from workers to shareholders and executives. Since all the profits go to those
124 AirFrnt : Southwest starts with the position of "no one has a job after two years unless you interview, and by the way, we turn down 90% of people who intervie
125 AirframeAS : I have heard the same as well. I don't have a source either, just word of mouth.
126 Enilria : I really hear that and you may be right, but the difference is that their core business is unwinding so that changes things quite a bit. Phillip Morr
127 Mariner : Even if it isn't true, it does raise a question. Frontier and the IBT has a long, acrimonious dispute about the contract. The national IBT bought int
128 Mrocktor : That is hilarious. You do realize that it's the shareholder's wealth that creates the a job for the worker in the first place?
129 AirframeAS : I was just wondering, do you have the link to that article?
130 Post contains links and images Dfanucci : My reply in 114 has the link...   From the AP: "While Frontier pilots are in a position to make some kind of deal before their airline is sold, othe
131 AirFrnt : Yep, better the devil you know... and get along with usually, then the devil you don't know that has promised to exterminate you
132 PlaneAdmirer : We are talking about the airline industry here. Shareholders have been wiped out at Frontier, the thread topic, United, NW, DAL, within a breath at A
133 Mariner : As Republic CEO Bedford says, they are diversifying. It seems completely sensible to me. If - and it is only "if" - they decide to spin off Frontier
134 413X3 : show me in the constitution anything about free market capitalism. your argument is invalid. You simply grew up being force fed Reaganomics and take
135 413X3 : Damn and here I thought it was the actual customers! I guess a company can exist without even selling anything! The only thing shareholders do is all
136 413X3 : I am talking about the only shareholders they care about. banks and wealthy institutions. Yes your 401k and personal stock holdings were wiped out, b
137 AirframeAS : I totally missed that one. My apologies. Thanks, Dfanucci!
138 PlaneAdmirer : Mariner - Care to speculate, without supporting links, on where you see this going?
139 Buddys747 : hmmmm, so this has to do with WN's union... Yeah, these two comments really have to do with this thread With all due respect, I don't appreciate bein
140 AirFrnt : A quick update, I was just told that FAPA and SWAPA have not returned the negotiating table. The auction is underway. Southwest has stated that they a
141 AirFrnt : I didn't call you stupid and dangerous, I simply asserted that ignoring ideas you don't like is. A third option, which I neglected was that they pull
142 Atomsareenough : Hmmm. Someone please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, but does that mean that Republic and Southwest are submitting competing bids, and then
143 Ikramerica : There's obviously a lot of emotion involved in this thread. I guess I should have said that the F9 pilots don't have the leverage they think they do,
144 AirFrnt : We don't know if WN submitted a bid. WN said it would not if the unions did not come to agreement by midnight last night. They could a) Break their w
145 Mariner : I've no idea. I've said before that my heart is with Frontier and the Republic deal. My head says that Southwest cannot afford to lose. Presently it
146 Post contains links Enilria : As I've said the pilots make out better in the WN scenario and they are the key labor group. They are just trying to get a little more out of the dea
147 Ikramerica : My heart is with F9 sticking around in any way possible, and that would mean the Republic deal. WN just makes them "go away" as would, obviously, no
148 AirFrnt : That's true no matter if it is WN or RJET that picks up F9. Is quickly proving to be immaterial. Not true. The court has already approved the auction
149 AirRyan : Yeah, but I remember NW and DL having the same problems when they went through their BK process; chapter 11 allows the company to shed a lot of debt
150 Max Q : Good for them, I wish the F9 Pilots the best of luck keeping SW from performing their usual career trashing.
151 AirFrnt : Okay, so maybe your failure rate is a little more then 90% and a little less then 100% . Props on that good call. Not at all. The fact that WN and Re
152 AirFrnt : If none of them get hired - which is a possibility in the WN plan - then their career options are crap. How do you disagree with that?
153 ExFATboy : In all fairness to WN, given the nature of the airline industry, the state of the economy and the very real possibility of a very slow recovery, oil
154 Post contains images Mariner : LOL. As much as I like Frontier, I have never put them in the same category as Qantas - but then I'm Australian.   You seem to have so many rules. W
155 AirFrnt : Absolutely, the problem is that SWAPA is doing everything they can to make sure if bad times come, it's the F9 pilots who get their faced ground agai
156 Post contains links OPNLguy : Some mood music to go along with that.... http://world.std.com/~eshu/dbug/Jeopardy_Think_Music.mp3
157 Tugger : Dumb question but who should SWAPA be representing and working to protect first? The union is required to do as they are doing and get the best deal
158 AirFrnt : Yep. Unfortunately WN gave them the role of deciding what is best for the company. Not surprisingly, they choose their own interests.
159 Atomsareenough : I thought they pretty much have to recuse themselves from these committees, no? ...If the creditors are paid off on emergence from bankruptcy, then w
160 Buddys747 : Who are you to tell me I need to understand organized labor? You know nothing about me or what I know, and obviously don't get my point. There are ma
161 AirFrnt : Not as far as I know. It's not illegal to vote in your self interest. Judge will overturn if anything abusive happens.
162 Wjcandee : WN managment has always cherished and worked to preserve WN's unique corporate culture, spending a lot of money and effort massaging it through decade
163 Wwtraveler99 : So any verdict yet? It is past 6 eastern time. Anything new to report. This seems too quite. WW
164 Atomsareenough : That's what I originally thought, but some people here have strongly suggested otherwise. So, I have no idea what is really the case. But if Republic
165 AirFrnt : Don't expect to hear anything for a while. It will come out in dribbles.
166 AirFrnt : So your criteria is that F9 employees have to be happy that SWAPA is bending them over? (As a side note, I have heard that SWAPA also refused domicil
167 Ridgid727 : Yes, many airlines do hub at inclement weather stations..The big difference with F9 is, DEN is their only hub, so that when they get 3-4 days of incl
168 Wjcandee : Sorry...the hideous conduct of some (but of course not all) Frontier employees following the acquisition decimated the opportunities of the combined
169 KingCavalier : True, but DEN still has a mild, dry climate with 300 days of sunshine, more than Miami Beach or San Diego. As to only having one hub, a RAH deal has
170 AirFrnt : Go read "Hard Landings" which goes into this in depth. Not to say unions don't randomly kill off their carriers. See Eastern Airlines.
171 AirRyan : Who's calling who's argument invalid?! Labor unions believe they have a right to work, which in some states they agree and in others they do not. Whe
172 F9fan : I read somewhere that the issues left are that FAPA (Frontier Airlines Pilot Association) wants the following; Job protection Domicile protection (I g
173 AirFrnt : There was a bill passed to make it so that a aquiring company could not just staple any more, as a direct result of the TWA experience. Herb's not ru
174 Post contains links Alphascan : While we're waiting, a little music video courtesy of Bryan Bedford. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRkovnss7sg[Edited 2009-08-13 16:01:29]
175 Post contains links AirFrnt : This is incorrect. They had blended senority to reflect the fact that the aquiring entity - HP - had much more junior captains and officers. They act
176 Mariner : I guess you know who the majority of the unsecured creditors are? mariner
177 Ridgid727 : While he may not be running it, I'm sure he's consulted numerous times about it.
178 USAFDO : Would SW pilots union "STAPLE" the Frontier pilots to the bottom of their seniority list? This is outrageous & unacceptable!
179 Post contains links Mariner : Just in case anyone's getting bored, there's some other stuff coming out of the woodwork. Here's one. When Republic made its bid, there was a suggesti
180 ExFATboy : Don't think you can entirely blame this one on the unions. See Lorenzo, Frank. WN flies to, if my craptacular eyesight serves looking at their route
181 Fleet Service : Unless apparently you fly for Southwest, then you should be expected to hand the keys to the penthouse to the people you just pulled into the lifeboa
182 AirFrnt : So not a surprise. I have heard that the City of Denver is working with several of the new skyscrapers downtime to try and find a "inspiring" home fo
183 USAirALB : like FL in MKE
184 AirFrnt : I don't disagree with this. Again, I think the management of WN made a horrible decision giving SWAPA a veto over this business transaction.
185 USAFDO : I sure hope the F9 pilots have enough ammo to ensure "date of hire" is the sole method for pilot integration...it's the only fair way...
186 Cactus739 : press release just came out from Southwest ... "Southwest Airlines' Bid to Acquire Frontier Not Selected at Auction Carrier's Refusal to Remove Labor
187 Post contains links Atomsareenough : Aha! Republic wins! http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2479185/
188 Post contains links LAXintl : Sounds like its a done deal http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Southw...to-prnews-3732211443.html?x=0&.v=1
189 Post contains links FATFlyer : "SOUTHWEST AIRLINES’ BID TO ACQUIRE FRONTIER NOT SELECTED AT AUCTION Carrier’s Refusal to Remove Labor Requirement Key in Decision DALLAS, TX—Au
190 ADent : The original offer was more like they move to the top of the WN hiring pool.
191 N917ME : WOOOO!!!!! Congratulations Republic!! Welcome Frontier to the Republic family!
192 TxAgKuwait : Well, the vast majority of the a.netters on here ought to be thrilled. Frontier will now become a wholly owned subsidiary of Republic. Let me say cong
193 F9Animal : YES!!!! The animals will live! Congrats to the employees of F9 and Republic. Republic just bought one hell of an airline.
194 Mariner : That's not a problem for me. If they become #1 at DEN is not a problem for me. I wish Southwest all the best. mariner
195 PlanesNTrains : Great news for the Frontier brand. Now let's see how this plays out. Is Republic the "savior", or just another opportunist? Does their business plan h
196 Ikramerica : Well I think it helps protect the combined airline by not being so tied to one region/airport. F9 tried to expand at other airports, but failed. That
197 AirFrnt : Congratulations to F9 and Republic. They really were David today, and they took down Goliath. Now they need to brace for the entire philistine army to
198 ExFATboy : Yep. I suspect antacid sales in Chicago just jumped dramatically...
199 Post contains links Srbmod : Since there now is a winner in the bid for F9, please continue the discussion in the following thread: Republic Wins F9 Auction (by AirFrnt Aug 13 200
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