MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31156 posts, RR: 76 Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13678 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 290): Seems that the jury is out... I don't see how US+AA would fly and DL+AS would not (unless DL+AS is still way bigger than US+AA.) I honestly think (in my seasoned 19 year old opinion) that both have a chance of going through, sure there would be complaining, but they complained on DL+NW and it went through relatively smoothly. I just wonder if everyone that says AS will not be taken over will say that if the CO+UA goes through, and even the AA+US.
It has nothing to do with size. DL+AS (or anybody+AS) likely won't happen because AS likely will not merge, nor is their cost structure adaptable towards merging with a major.
USAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2681 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13612 times:
If AA+US merge ALB/ROC/SYR can say good-bye to mainline.
DCA-ROCguy said in the archived forum that service to the four larger upstate markets would continue...(ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF)
Could DL really support service from JFK+LGA to ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF?
Davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13549 times:
People keep talking about US merging. But with who? I think AA would shy away for all the reasons that have been stated.
UA wanted to marry CO....but that didn't happen.
US/Am West still have growth pains. Could US survive a merger at this point and not drag the other company into a major labor battle?
As to DL, I can't see them wanting to merge with anyone at this point. They have enough with the NW merger going on.
But, what might be interesting:
Codeshares on some US/DL flights (think CVG -- DCA type flights, some shuttle flights).
I think the timeline for approval will be quite long. As to the Brasil part of the deal, it was interesting neither press relased said anything about foreign government approval being required, only "government" which is usually US government.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5376 posts, RR: 47 Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13392 times:
Quoting Davescj (Reply 4):
UA wanted to marry CO....but that didn't happen.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6032 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13383 times:
Quoting Davescj (Reply 4): UA wanted to marry CO....but that didn't happen.
By most indications, it is in the works right now.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4576 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13233 times:
Quoting Davescj (Reply 4):
UA wanted to marry CO....but that didn't happen.
By most indications, it is in the works right now
Well, between the F9/WN/RP battle, the FL/CO deal, the DL/US deal, and other likely behind-the-scenes things going on, are we witnessing a total makeover of the airline landscape? IOW, are we seeing a number of seemingly disconnected events that are in actuality leading towards one common goal: Consolidation?
I know that the short answer is "Well, duh." But I guess my thought is that perhaps what is going on behind the scenes with these airlines is much more involved and progressed than what has previously been witnessed.
I guess I'm just throwing random thoughts out, but this seems to me to be the industry preparing itself for a merger orgy in the next 12 months.
Flyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1922 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13200 times:
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 3): Could DL really support service from JFK+LGA to ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF?
I've wondered the same question. I think they really can because the JFK flights seem to be mrore catered to the International feed. What I think they could do is reduce frequencies here and there to some of these markets so they don't compete/dilute the markets. In turn, they could probably open up some new markets from JFK also to help with the International feed so they don't lose those slots to competition. Just a couple of thoughts.
Davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13168 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6): By most indications, it is in the works right now.
I remember it was in the serious discussion stage, but it seemed CO didn't like UAs books. It had sounded like CO was going to be the aquiring company, but then it all seemed to fall through.
Don't get me wrong, I think it could be a great match up. Personally, I'd prefer CO taking the UA name but with CO style inflight services.
Is this marriage still a serious contender for this year?
OP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1678 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13022 times:
DL is saying in the Atlanta paper that the right being transferred for NRT to US is from NW cargo frequencies they are canceling.
"As part of the deal, Delta will also give US Airways some of its international route authorities to Brazil and Japan, but Delta said that will not lead to any “material” flight schedule changes for passengers. That’s partly because Delta will still maintain access to Brazil and Delta is eliminating cargo freighter service to Japan at the end of this year."
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7507 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12960 times:
DL might hope as part of this to free up a number of JFK slots by transferring O&D flights to LGA. The simple fact is that LGA can't and won't feed DL international flights at JFK. DL is cool with that. By moving the right kind of flying to LGA, DL can resume quite a lot of new growth at JFK.
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12940 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6): By most indications, it is in the works right now.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10572 posts, RR: 53 Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12934 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 11): The simple fact is that LGA can't and won't feed DL international flights at JFK. DL is cool with that. By moving the right kind of flying to LGA, DL can resume quite a lot of new growth at JFK.
This is correct. Let's put this in perspective: why did airlines from the US hate flying to Gatwick? Because it foreclosed the possibility of connections at Heathrow. Passengers simply will not move by land from one airport to another when any other option exists. For that reason, DL's new dual hubs at JFK and LGA will be completely separate from each other in practicality if not in theory as well.
DL could really go nuts with international expansion out of JFK if it can move most of its domestic operation to LGA.
Letsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12886 times:
Quoting Davescj (Reply 9):
I remember it was in the serious discussion stage, but it seemed CO didn't like UAs books. It had sounded like CO was going to be the aquiring company, but then it all seemed to fall through.
Don't get me wrong, I think it could be a great match up. Personally, I'd prefer CO taking the UA name but with CO style inflight services.
Is this marriage still a serious contender for this year?
You will see CO and UAL ALMOST merge. They will be so closely aligned, that they will be like one. BUT they will keep two names and two work forces.
Davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12884 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 11): DL might hope as part of this to free up a number of JFK slots by transferring O&D flights to LGA.
Which pairs are you thinking of? I'd guess at least some would need to stay at JFK for international connections.
Quoting D L X (Reply 13): DL could really go nuts with international expansion out of JFK if it can move most of its domestic operation to LGA.
I agree. Also come flights from Canada could become part of the LGA make up, since usually customs is done in Canada.
But again -- some traffic would still need to be be going into JFK for supporting the international flights.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6032 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12819 times:
CO leaving SkyTeam and joining UA in Star is one indication.
CO and UA seeking ATI across the Atlantic is another.
Closer coordination in other areas with each other is another.
TheGMan From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 606 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12705 times:
Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 14): You will see CO and UAL ALMOST merge. They will be so closely aligned, that they will be like one. BUT they will keep two names and two work forces.
Isn't that already the case for UA and US? There is an extensive codeshare agreement between those two already.
Davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12680 times:
Quoting TheGMan (Reply 17): Isn't that already the case for UA and US? There is an extensive codeshare agreement between those two already.
I agree. For that reason, the relatioship between US and CO will be intersting.
Any word about changes to CO Onepass? I ask as currently CO does unlimited upgrades for its own elites. Will that change? what will we see beyond codeshares?
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12666 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16): CO leaving SkyTeam and joining UA in Star is one indication.
CO and UA seeking ATI across the Atlantic is another.
Closer coordination in other areas with each other is another.
All these things were announced at the same time CO announced its BOD unanimously rejected puruing a merger deal with United.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16318 posts, RR: 52 Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12652 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 13): DL could really go nuts with international expansion out of JFK if it can move most of its domestic operation to LGA.
There's the limiting factor of the perimeter rule at LGA, and besides the flights beyond the 1,500 mile perimeter what domestic routes from JFK do you suggest DL move to LGA?.. There's not much, of which connects to the International banks.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4402 posts, RR: 37 Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12607 times:
Could DL really support service from JFK LGA to ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF?
Absolutely. JFK and LGA are different markets for legacy carriers from Upstate. People flying to New York itself, say to do business, are more likely to use LGA. People making a connection to an international flight use JFK, as FlyinRyan99 notes. JetBlue of course has a different calculus because it is an LCC--you pay a lower fare, and regardless of whether you are going to New York or making a connection, you fly into JFK.
It did surprise me how well Delta has done with these RJ flights from Upstate to JFK. ROC for instance supports four daily CRJ's, and still has three scheduled after the fall seasonal reduction happens in September. Delta should do fine with CRJ's to LGA from the Upstate cities. All of this while JetBlue retains 60 percent market share on ROC-NYC. There's plenty of room for legacy service to LGA to continue.
Delta has itself flown Upstate-LGA before, too. Back in the 90's, Business Express was a Delta partner before American Eagle bought BEX. And when the AIR-21 bill opened up a bunch more slots at LGA in 2000, DL started running FRJ's from Upstate (I think 4x daily from ROC) to LGA. However, AIR-21 turned LGA from a bad dream into a Freddy Krueger nightmare, so the slots were withdrawn and Delta had to end the service.
But as you noted, it is an end of an era. For decades, either US Airways or its predecessors--Mohawk, Allegheny, USAir, Empire, Piedmont--have been big on the Upstate-NYC corridor.
USAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2681 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12593 times:
Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 21): But as you noted, it is an end of an era. For decades, either US Airways or its predecessors--Mohawk, Allegheny, USAir, Empire, Piedmont--have been big on the Upstate-NYC corridor
Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 21): Absolutely. JFK and LGA are different markets for legacy carriers from Upstate. People flying to New York itself, say to do business, are more likely to use LGA. People making a connection to an international flight use JFK, as FlyinRyan99 notes. JetBlue of course has a different calculus because it is an LCC--you pay a lower fare, and regardless of whether you are going to New York or making a connection, you fly into JFK.
It did surprise me how well Delta has done with these RJ flights from Upstate to JFK. ROC for instance supports four daily CRJ's, and still has three scheduled after the fall seasonal reduction happens in September. Delta should do fine with CRJ's to LGA from the Upstate cities. All of this while JetBlue retains 60 percent market share on ROC-NYC. There's plenty of room for legacy service to LGA to continue.
Delta has itself flown Upstate-LGA before, too. Back in the 90's, Business Express was a Delta partner before American Eagle bought BEX. And when the AIR-21 bill opened up a bunch more slots at LGA in 2000, DL started running FRJ's from Upstate (I think 4x daily from ROC) to LGA. However, AIR-21 turned LGA from a bad dream into a Freddy Krueger nightmare, so the slots were withdrawn and Delta had to end the service.
KstateinALB From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 732 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12530 times:
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 3): If AA+US merge ALB/ROC/SYR can say good-bye to mainline.
Why do you say that? I'd say there would be a good chance that those airports would continue to see mainline service...
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 3): DCA-ROCguy said in the archived forum that service to the four larger upstate markets would continue...(ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF)
Are you talking about LGA? I'd be surprised if US kept that, unless you are talking about DL.
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 3): Could DL really support service from JFK+LGA to ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF?
Considering both airports are going to be used somewhat differently, I'd say yes.
USAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2681 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12374 times:
Quoting KstateinALB (Reply 23): Why do you say that? I'd say there would be a good chance that those airports would continue to see mainline service...
I kinda said it on impulse, for some reason I have this gut feeling it will go away
25 MaverickM11: Yes and no. Mostly no. Between B6 and the Airtrain, JFK has become much less of an outcast as far as preferred NYC airports for domestic travel. Whet
26 DeltaMD90: Ok, I think I got this. So DL will mostly use LGA for O/D and connect passengers internationally through JFK? That actually makes a lot of sense. It s
27 DCA-ROCguy: Yes and no. Mostly no. Between B6 and the Airtrain, JFK has become much less of an outcast as far as preferred NYC airports for domestic travel. Wheth
28 Jeffrey1970: The good people of Alaska simply would do everything they could do to block this. I bet they wished they still had Ted Stevens in the Senate to help
29 Phileet92: Will DL be taking over the US terminal at LGA? I hope they do. They can take down the old DL terminal as well as the wing of the US terminal closer to
31 DeltaMD90: It may take a while, but part 1 has a lot of good information, including this. They are indeed taking the US terminal over and actually connecting th
32 Phileet92: Hopefully with this upgrade at LGA, we can see some transcon services moved there from JFK.
33 TheGMan: The 1500 mile perimeter rule is not going away...
34 STT757: In light of WN's $170 million dollar bid for F9 falling through, does any forsee a WN bid on US's LGA slots?.. Would US walk away from the proposed sl
35 Super80DFW: Are you possibly going to see LGA-DFW, IAH, AUS service on DL with these added slots? Maybe 1-2x CR9?
36 Sxf24: There is no political appetite to support the reallocation of 125 slots from small to medium sized cities to the large or hub (as defined by the FAA)
37 STT757: What I'm saying is for WN to bid on the LGA slots that they can operate themselves (BOS, PVD, MHT, BUF, ALB, BWI, PIT etc..).
39 Joeljack: Could all this mean that OMA-LGA gets a second daily flight? Maybe first I should ask if anyone knows how the first daily is doing? Delta isn't operat
40 CokePopper: I am curious, did the PANYNJ have to approve this? Was it in their "minutes" ? Maybe STT757 would know....
41 Jetlanta: Well, it is safe to assume that the definitive agreement between DL and US has a significant penalty clause. Also, it isn't a straight up asset sale.
42 USAirALB: That would be pretty sweet. LGA-BUF/BOS/PIT/MHT/PVD/ALB
43 DeltaMD90: I *THINK* I read something along the lines about CO owning US's LGA terminal, just leasing it to US, and WN did try and make an offer but CO gave tha
44 D L X: I think that DL could move any and nearly all JFK ops under 1500 miles to LGA, excepting a few to the major cities within the perimeter, like ATL, PH
46 DeltaL1011man: Why do you want WN to gets any slots in NYC over Delta. Do you really hate them that much? You do understand if WN comes into ANY NYC market that CO
47 FutureUScapt: Exactly. This is about a LONG-TERM deal that is beneficial for both parties. This is not about US selling assets to try to raise cash in the short te
48 DeltaL1011man: And BTW i'm not sure 200M would get all of US's slots......that isn't that much money.
49 DFWEagle: Does anybody know how many of these slots are designated commuter slots (restricted to 56 seat jets) and how many are mainline?
50 STT757: I'm sure CO would much rather have DL with those slots too, but I'm taking into account the benefit to the consumer (not the airlines) if there were
51 Flyinryan99: One could debate which is benefited more...many consumers in a handful of cities or less consumers to double/tripple the amount of cities? Southwest
52 Flighty: You are talking like US is in bankruptcy or something. They aren't (right now). There is no reason why they would consider transferring their LGA slot
53 DeltaL1011man: mainline is going to grow. As i said the pilot base is growing to add about 50 flights on the 73N/M88. Sure some of it will be CR2s but I think its s
54 Jetlanta: The Southwest "effect" would be minimal in most markets because NYC already has low fares in most of them. At least the ones that WN might fly. There
55 DeltAirlines: I'd say there is a rather large competitive landscape in the macro New York market. Already, Florida is well covered from 4 NYC airports (JFK, LGA, E
56 Jetlanta: Not to mention that the Mayor of NYC and the Governor of the State have already vocally expressed their support. It will be interesting to see who com
57 Tys777: TYS already has service to LGA on NW/DL currently being operated by NW and also 3x DCA service on US. I don't see this deal affecting them too much.
58 FlyASAGuy2005: Isn't the whole reason for the deal (also being non-cash) is they are getting what they want in DCA. If they do an about face on DL now, Dl will then
59 LHCVG: Agreed- AFAIK for the most part LCCs don't fly to the boondocks places the legacies do (granted, small towns aren't necessarily conducive to profitab
60 FlyASAGuy2005: Couple that with the fact that some of these cities barely support a single or double daily 50 seaters.
61 WorldTraveler: I've been world traveling and uable to write but there are some key points about this deal. First, it is noteworthy that only a couple years ago, US w
62 MasseyBrown: I'm not sure the market is pricing slots as highly as in the past. Based on Friday's market cap, for a little over $400 million you could buy the who
63 STT757: DL is now taking on the approach that AA did about 10 years ago, to split their resources between JFK and LGA. AA had a window of opportunity about 10
64 Amwest2United: It is rumoured that all of US service will move to the marine terminal within a year. Just a rumour, but would make way more sense. Seems like it wou
65 DeltaL1011man: DL is also giving them rights into GRU and NRT. No, DL isn't pulling anythin from JFK. The point is to try to take on B6 and CO with two hubs because
66 Sxf24: Is it a mistake? There's certainly enough O&D traffic in the tri-state area to support multiple hubs, including 2 for the same airline. CO has largel
67 FlyPNS1: But you are asking DL to do something that was virtually impossible. There's just about nothing DL could offer that would make AA give up their JFK s
68 DeltaL1011man: Yes but this isn't what DL wants in JFK. DL wants to be able to have a hub where they can fly TATL flights based on mostly O/D. This is JFK. The mega
69 MAH4546: AA's LF in February 2009 on MIA-GRU was 74.7%.
70 WorldTraveler: There is virtually NO financial deals being done for the amount of money that it will take to develop DL's facilities at JFK. DL's interest in improv
71 CALPSAFltSkeds: I think it's going to be tough for DL to concentrate on both JFK and LGA. No matter what anyone says, service from many cities will be competing with
72 DeltaL1011man: No DL isn't trying to make JFK its only hub for one reason......they can't. They don't have the room, A/C, People, or slots to do so. Hell 75% of the
73 MAH4546: No, it doesn't. All it points out are inaccurate load-factors, some of which were later corrected.
74 MasseyBrown: Those are thoughtful points, but I still have to question the 3:1 ratio. There must be more to the agreement - maybe some encumbering debt transfers
75 Sxf24: The 3:1 also gives US a good excuse to cut excess regional capacity, while giving DL a place to deploy its extra CRJs.
76 PlanesNTrains: So, just to be clear, Delta orchestrated this deal as a means of making US a stronger competitor to it's new/existing Star affiliates, CO and UA? Usi
77 Bobnwa: Isn't that a bit of an exageration? "everone inside Delta"
78 STT757: It's been that way for over a year, but I can go back just a few weeks ago in the thread discussing DL's qtr results where everyone said (this Fall)
79 FlyASAGuy2005: I sure will give you that. I remember the discussions and everyone was like "Bastian has said it publicly as of recent..." blah blah blah.
80 DeltaL1011man: Just a little LOL The building Delta is doing is building away for people to get from T4B to T1 via T3 and T2. Not sure but i sussme itll be above gr
81 CokePopper: Makes me even more gratefull for the managment team that we have. Glad your not running things. Talk about giving away the store. so do you not belie
82 WorldTraveler: DL orchestrated the deal for its own benefit. It is a side benefit that it happens to help US so CO/UA do not dominate Star; remember it is the DL/NW
83 DeltaL1011man: Um Delta is adding connectors to T1 from T2 and from T4B to T3........unless your saying Bastian lied to everyone at Delta.
84 STT757: Well I'll guarantee you one thing, if I indeed were running DL the JFK Terminal situation would have been addressed in 1999 when AA and CO began thei
85 Sxf24: The busiest international route from LAX that is dominated by MX. Other than AM (a distant 2nd place), no other carrier has been able to get traction
86 RJpieces: I've been travelling the last week....But I just caught up with all of the posts in both threads. Very interesting development. I wonder why US will s
87 Panamair: With JFK having slot restrictions, Delta would be stupid to cut anything at JFK during peak times; you can bet they will hold onto those 200 slot pai
88 STT757: Yes, it's underutilized to the point where AA is looking for other carriers to come in and it's driven AA's costs up at JFK tremendously. AA had in m
89 MAH4546: That's irrelevant. AA isn't giving it up, because they have big long-term plans for it. It's actually the under-utilization of that very terminal tha
90 STT757: Unless they plan on bringing in BA, I don't see where they can generate additional slots for more JFK flying. B6 and DL beat AA to the great slot lan
91 FlyASAGuy2005: That's a very good point. They have the space to expand, which is where DL is pretty much shit out of luck, however comma... Bingo
92 MAH4546: I agree, AA should have built up Eagle flying or something similar, but we really can't make assumptions about what the slot situation - if any at al
93 Sxf24: Except for the fact their cost structure at JFK is out of whack due to the high operating costs.
94 MAH4546: I would love to see evidence that it is "out of whack." I don't doubt it is higher than others, but define "out of whack" by showing me numbers of ho
95 FlyASAGuy2005: A little to the left but i'd like to point out that FWAERJ got it right (almost) about the LGA/ DCA slots initially in "Delta To Consolidate Gates At
96 Sxf24: I'm simply referencing the burden of the debt service on its terminals, which is substantially higher (both as a nominal amount and per passenger or
97 Jetlanta: So you would have committed $1.5 BILLION just as 9/11 happened? Cause they hadn't signed the dotted line when that happened. Of course, you clearly h
98 STT757: The project was already delayed months prior to 9/11, the project was supposed to be well underway by June '01.
99 Jetlanta: Regardless, the financing had not been committed. You are saying you would have moved forward. Delta, prudently, waited to see what the effects of 9/
100 Flighty: AA didn't go bankrupt. DL did. DL made the right choice on JFK but let's not pretend the Delta of that era was more intelligent than AA. Revisionist
101 MAH4546: But how does AA calculate that burden? Is it all calculated into AA's per-passenger costs at JFK? Probably not. Yes, its all semantics, but it makes
102 Jetlanta: No one is pretending anything. STT757 was saying he would have built the building. I was saying that Delta made a prudent decision not to. They'd hav
103 MAH4546: AA is going to build a right-sized JFK operation that suits their current model. They won't aim to be the largest. We'll see what happens, I wouldn't
104 Panamair: Except MAN and DUB are nowhere near premium destinations, even if AA is the preferred choice of NYC premium travelers...
105 MAH4546: Throw in BA ATI and only 16 lie-flat business seats to sell? MAN has more than enough premium demand for that. Not every destination served has to be
106 WorldTraveler: but they don't have a premium revenue position from JFK. Based on DOT data, AA is third behind DL and CO on transatlantic average fares just to Europ
107 Jetlanta: OK, I can buy the idea. I wonder, if by the time this happens, AA will still have such a premium position over DL, though. That seems to be the entir
108 Flighty: If DL wants to operate a true hub at JFK, and obtain the revenue from that long-term, it might not even be possible. From most reports I hear, JFK is
109 MAH4546: I don't disagree with you for the most part, I just don't think AA's premium position is as threatened as you see it. AA continues to focus on offeri
110 Davescj: JFK isn't bad to change planes in if and only if you don't have to change terminals. Then it is a pain -- esp if you are changing from DL to AF for e
111 Jetlanta: What are you talking about??? I've been very clear, as has Delta, that the JFK facility will be replaced. The rest of your comment makes absolutely n
112 WorldTraveler: They have apparently not been corrected because AA is reporting them to both the DOT and Brazilian authorities. I believe we have heard this "but the
113 FWAERJ: Sorry that I'm late to the party, but as the poster that broke the original rumor, I have some words for all the naysayers who doubted me, the ones th
114 Davescj: As to dehubbing.....just look at how many flights CVG has lost. As to metal for LGA, how many planes did DL ground during the down turn and fewer fli
115 FWAERJ: There has to be at least some RJ feed to feed the 757s, MD-88s, and yes, DC-9s. It will have to come from somewhere. Which Delta hub is mostly RJs? W
116 DFWEagle: LHR accounts for roughly half of AA’s transatlantic seat capacity from JFK – even more than half in the winter time. So, enjoying a premium over
117 Jetlanta: I thought I'd add a little bit of data to this conversation. The below data is one-way Sabre Adjusted Bookings Data for the 12 months ended June 2009.
118 Commavia: I don't know where, exactly, this notion is coming from. It's not as if AA is raising prices extraordinarily out of JFK just to pay for the JFK termi
119 Flyyul: As per T100 report, AA MIAGRU in Feb had under 50% load factor.
120 DFWEagle: Thanks for compiling and posting the data, Jetlanta. It’s very much appreciated.
121 Flighty: Haha, look folks, I like Delta as much as the next guy. But JFK is a tricky facility to have a connect hub, because if you are not going to New York,
122 Panamair: Absolutely agree..but the issue is that many of those strong business markets that AA has relied upon to generate significant revenue premiums have n
123 Panamair: But AA uses JFK as a connecting point as well - why else would they have all these single daily flights from JFK to ORD, DFW, LAS, TPA, MCO, etc. tha
124 Commavia: That's not true. When it comes to Heathrow, Virgin used to be bigger out of JFK than they are now. United used to have three flights per day. And tha
125 DeltaL1011man: Hadn't Delta pissed away what WA gave them Delta should have been able to make money on LAX-MEX.......Hard to believe AS with 1/4 the hub Delta had c
126 Panamair: I was thinking more of the competition with U.S. peers since a significant portion of the premium traffic for the US carriers is coming from the US s
127 MAH4546: Thanks for posting the data, and it's extremely impressive to see how much of a fare premium AA has been able to command, even in brand-new markets.
128 Sxf24: Almost every airline uses station operating costs to evaluate various aspects of profitability. While the T8/9 debt service is not directly paid by t
129 Commavia: Does the debt service to T8 factor into financial decision-making and profitability metrics? Certainly. But again, if the whole objective of you maki
130 Sxf24: I said the debt service impacts various profitability metrics. Or in other words, the viability or sustainability of the JFK operations. It is clear
131 Incitatus: As MAH pointed out, this statement breaks down for Milan and Barcelona - and take even a look at Rome, where DL is supposed to be very strong. There
132 Commavia: Again, though: define "competitive advantage." Will Delta have more peak-time slots at JFK than AA? Yep, they will. But again, there is no guarantee
133 Sxf24: In this case, possessing a greater amount of limited and restricted revenue generating assets. DL will always have the potential to operate more flig
134 DeltaL1011man: I assume that DL/AF would lead AA in the JFK-CDG market if it showed them as one?
135 Jetlanta: The LHR access is a far bigger point than most realize. Delta couldn't even get in the door at most major NYC corporations, particularly financial fi
137 DeltaL1011man: Hey They can have as many 76-seaters as they want. As many as they want. So they shot them self in the foot on that one. depends on how you look at i
138 Davescj: I have to say, this does surprise me that AA is replacing Super 80s only with 738s. Don't get me wrong, I like the 737. But why only one type? I reme
139 DeltAirlines: Economics is a big part of it I think. I don't believe there is much difference in how much it costs to fly a 737-700 versus a 737-800. The two big d
140 PlanesNTrains: I believe that AA equips their 738's with 148 seats, which would mean that the staffing would be identical between the -700 and -800. For the -900, t
141 Panamair: AA is upping 738 capacity to 160 seats total (16F144Y). Can't remember if they are doing this fleet-wide or just for a sub-fleet. No, not every one.
142 FlyASAGuy2005: Not saying he's lying. Also not saying it was or was not in the minutes. What i'm saying is that according to them (PANYNJ) and Caleb, the port is "h
143 WorldTraveler: Airport contracts and debt service is public knowledge and costs can be calculated based on passenger boardings. Aviation Daily regularly reports on
144 Jetlanta: The data I showed is adjusted to show the entire "pie". In fact, adjusted MIDT bookings account for upwards of 80% of transatlantic bookings BEFORE t
145 DeltaL1011man: I'm not saying any new terminal is getting built. I assume that If its such a small thing (IIRC only a few mill) then maybe Delta doesn't have to ask
146 Cws818: AA uses the 752, 763, and 772 - all of which DL has operated to Europe, too.
147 MAH4546: Delta uses magic to make everything more advantageous for them. WT can explain further. However, AA does typically have higher employee costs, and th
148 Davescj: LOL I find DL has better food than AA, I will say that. Also, I find DL employees do more of a "restarant" style meal, AA more classic airline (if th
149 DeltaL1011man: Good point. To bad most of AA 2 class 737 routes have DL CR2s on them. .......ummm WT......If anyone out of the two have "expensive" equipment its De
150 WorldTraveler: Actually, DOT data shows that DL's fleet cost are on par with other carriers. It is not hidden information. While you bash DL for going through BK, i
151 Jetlanta: ??? This may all seem like conventional wisdom you, my friend. But in reality it makes about zero sense. WT is correct, mtc costs are not an issue he
152 DFWEagle: By what measure is DL’s maintenance operation larger than AA’s? Based on every metric I can think of, that is simply not true. AA still has three
153 Jetlanta: Of course I meant : For as strong as AA is in this handful of JFK markets, don't think for a second they wouldn't love to have a TA gateway like ATL.
154 Cubsrule: It's impossible (and foolish, IMO) to compare DL and AA's TATL markets. AA has always focused on the largest markets. If AA were the hubbing carrier
155 LHCVG: I think you've hit the nail on the head-- DL and AA only REALLY compete on those few key markets that AA is dominant in. I guess you could say that t
156 Jetlanta: Cubs, I wasn't really comparing them. I was actually making the point you are making. Each airline has different DNA. AA's JFK franchise is very stro
157 Cubsrule: ...and here, we're on the same page. It's interesting to think about how decisions taken 20 or more years ago still affect these carriers today. DL c
158 PlanesNTrains: Not to help US out? Not to put US and UA in direct competition? Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but sometimes I just have to roll my eyes at the way that y
159 WorldTraveler: I'm not doubting that at all... I'm simply saying and your numbers bear it out... that DL is a significant player in NYC local markets because they a
160 Jetlanta: Yeah. What if they hadn't bought the PA assets in 1991? The DL world would look much different.
161 Cubsrule: There's a separate question that must be asked, though: what factors lead to the difference? Maybe AA's strategy is sensible (and profit-maximizing)
162 WorldTraveler: Yes... and you can also ask if UA hadn't bought the LHR assets who would have and where would they be today. You could also ask where DL would be if
163 Cubsrule: 5 daily 772s on JFK-LHR and a daily 772 each on JFK-LHR, JFK-CDG, JFK-FRA, JFK-MAD, and JFK-FCO have the same mass. Mass doesn't tell the whole story
164 DeltaL1011man: I do? MQ Ok but AA pays the same for an S80 and DL pays the same for the OH and EV CR2s they own? Apples to apples please. This is with the NW merger
165 United777ORD: If this deal is approved US Airways should get all of the gates in the current DL/NW Terminal D. Having the US Airways Shuttle and US Airways mainline
166 DeltaL1011man: Delta wouldn't agree......why should US get 9 gates when they need 3? US gets the MAT for the shuttle and 3 gates for PIT,CLT,PHL and somewhere in NC
167 Bobnwa: It is a fairly good record. The locations were losing money and were shut down. Seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do. By the way what's with th
168 DeltaL1011man: Trying to not get banned is all. If its that bad I can go to the ** thing. huh? I am talking about hangars.....not sure how they can do that. I can s
169 Jetlanta: My friend, I understand your frustration. I wanted to work for DL when I was a teenager and, after college, spent six years working as a part-timer o
170 Tinpusher007: US Airways is not getting the entire DL terminal. They are getting 3 gates in the current DL terminal and all of the MAT. DL has operated its shuttle
171 WorldTraveler: The costs are driven by flexible, non-union labor. The simple fact is that DL has the lowest maintenance costs per ASM of any of the network carriers
172 DeltaL1011man: Don't tell me it can't be done. AA still has MX,good work rules,good pay and a f**king pension. You know why things have changed at Delta? The same r
173 Jetlanta: Clearly, you didn't read the blog. I don't understand why you don't recognize that the industry is DYING. It must change. The AA model is not the fut
174 WorldTraveler: Funny... labor at DL and NW and a whole lot of airlines seem to understand the world has gone on and have agreed to contracts that have allowed their
175 Cubsrule: If NW is outsourcing the work already, there's no reason DL couldn't do the work now. "NW" could simply outsource to DL (who, presumably, would charg
176 RJpieces: No need for all of *A to be together, but I do think it's stupid for US to take the MAT AND three gates in D. It seems to me that with some schedule
177 DeltAirlines: It could be done, but tough to do. It all depends on what slots US plans to keep at LGA. For example, today there is an 810a and an 835a LGA-CLT flig
178 Cubsrule: When DL launched the TCF flights to ORD (which have since moved to MDW), they used the fact that those flights used the MAT as a huge selling point,
179 DeltaL1011man: No I'm sorry this is not true. The employees that let it happen can't do anything about it. TechOps is what it is because they can't do anything abou
180 DeltAirlines: That's a very good point - if it's O&D passengers primarily (what would the only connections be? Maybe PHL/PIT/BOS-LGA-ILM and that's it (which is mo
181 RJpieces: Indeed. It seems to make TOO much sense, so of course they are not doing it! No need for a club really...There are enough comfy lounge chairs, workta
182 Cubsrule: I think checked baggage fees have brought us to a point, though, where most carriers have too much checkin space at most airports both because the nu
183 DeltAirlines: It'd also be interesting to see if US expands to mobile boarding passes and gets those in place at LGA. I've used them a few times on Delta/Northwest
184 Cubsrule: It would be interesting to know how many business customers are using the kiosks now because they don't have access to a printer to print their BPs.
185 Davescj: I think this is going to be the way of the future more and more. I am looking forward to when you can use them for connecting flights also. I also th
186 RJpieces: At JFK a few weeks ago, I was on an early morning flight to CLT and the only other flight leaving was to PHX around the same time....The check-in are
187 Flighty: So now it is the employer's responsibility to handle everybody's home life and private decisions? I thought it was the citizen's job to provide for h
188 DeltAirlines: While I haven't flown on US Airways Shuttle for a couple of years now (only would use them for BOS-DCA since I'd rather take an A319 than a DL CRJ),
189 WorldTraveler: again, the merger is not even 1 year old. DL will indeed take whatever work it wants into its own shops in time. You fail to appreciate that DL didn'
190 NWAESC: Saying management is greedy is just shorthand for "Labor is sick of the company crying broke and the accordant downward pressure on wages while 10K f
191 Cubsrule: Shuttle America, sorry. As usual, you're dodging my point, which was that a SOC is not a prerequisite to DL doing the work. That doesn't necessarily
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