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Premium Economy A "money Loser"?!  
User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11502 times:

A lot of airlines just love the revenue they are making on their premium eco product. Alot of airlines are just looking in introducing a premium economy class. Now, I'm just asking agressivly purposely. I'm not trying to make any claims. However, it just crossed my mind and thought it would make a good discussion.

So looking at the fact that a lot of airlines are really counting on their Premium eco product I noticed (at least for european airlines) that the airlines which are doing comparably well in Europe all DON'T have a premium economy. LH/LX/IB as well as KL which however are just about to introduce it. It just struck me, when I thought about which airlines I personally see as doing best in europe at the moment (no LCCs) and these were the 4 I had in my mind.

Then I noticed that all don't have no premium eco (yet). Obviously that could just be a coincidence. Then again, many might say, that this is just a coincidence and there are many many airlines struggeling with no premium eco right now obviously as well. Others might claim that that this product is only available on long haul and it won't make such a big difference (at least to that extend) of making an airline profitable (or of course unprofitable). However, for the bigger european airlines the l/h is their bread and butter and then specially the C product, and offering a premium eco does obviously makes many consider it instead of C. So an premium eco actually only makes sense if a lot more people who would normally fly eco would upgrade to ecoplus compared to people downgrading from C. Then again, I think that ecopassangers are far more looking at the fare, whereas C pax don't bother that much, don't want to be in a camped Y seat, however, if they have the possiblity of a ecoplus seat with reasonable seatpitch, they might be just happy with it. So my common sense (thinking of the purchasingbehavior of C and Y pax) I would expect more C pax to downgrade than the other way around and in that case such a product wouldn't make sense from an airline's point of view.

So what are your thought's. I don't really want to make a statement, if it makes economically sense. I'm just putting a theses out to make a good start for a discussion. So, what do you folks think.

GlobeEx


As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11469 times:

I believe that CX said as much, that their studies indicate that offering Y+ really steals customers from discounted J/C and full fare Y. Ultimately, they didn't see it as adding any revenue.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11394 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I believe that CX said as much, that their studies indicate that offering Y+ really steals customers from discounted J/C and full fare Y. Ultimately, they didn't see it as adding any revenue.

Now as you say it, I remember someone around here saying something similar.

What I find VERY interesting is that KL is about to introduce a premium eco product. That means, that (if they understand anything about what they are doing at AF at the moment) AF should see a potential in a Y+ product. Then again. looking at the results of KL and AF of last year, I, ironicaly, don't see much KL could learn of AF at the moment.

For Y+ to work I would think that you need at least 2 passengers upgrading from Y for every passenger downgrading from C (AT LEAST). And personally I don't see how that would happen.

[Edited 2009-08-14 17:13:29]


As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineRongotai From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 477 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11251 times:

On long haul if a carrier doesn't offer Y+ then I'm looking for another carrier that does. On anything less than 5 hours I'm not interested in Y+.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11180 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I believe that CX said as much, that their studies indicate that offering Y+ really steals customers from discounted J/C and full fare Y. Ultimately, they didn't see it as adding any revenue.

But lets look to the other side, you might attract the customer willing to pay full Y but that don't think the Y product is valuable enough.
And about discounted J/C, it's all about know the right size for the market as also discounted business class come with advance booking and longer stay requirements while Y+ would not.
In my view, is just a more complete range of fares to offer Y+ as the difference between Y and J/C is in general, huge.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11135 times:



Quoting Rongotai (Reply 3):
On long haul if a carrier doesn't offer Y+ then I'm looking for another carrier that does. On anything less than 5 hours I'm not interested in Y+.

I second that motion.

Mike


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20349 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11076 times:

I think part of the problem is that businesses aren't paying for Y+. They're either paying for J or Y. If they would re-brand Y+ "Business Class" and "Business Class" "First Class" and eliminate First Class, then they would be able to sell Y+ with a bit of tweaking.

User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 724 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10980 times:

BA claimed (before the downturn) that their most profitable cabin was biz class and the second was y+

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10867 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I believe that CX said as much, that their studies indicate that offering Y+ really steals customers from discounted J/C and full fare Y. Ultimately, they didn't see it as adding any revenue.

Gotta love these studies (they've put most US carriers into bankruptcy). Premium economy has the potential to make the airline money, if they do it right. United's idea of premium economy (window seat or bulkhead last I checked) is a disgrace and should be laughed at. To be fair, their TAtl Y product at one time was comparable to BA's J product of the time g(2001), except for the room, of course. Virgin, on the other hand, did a fair job of it when I tested it in 2006.

Any airline that finds their customers confusing J with Y+ are either offering an amazing Y+ or a crappy J. And an airline that would lose full-fare Y to Y+ and complain needs to examine their business model.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10843 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I think part of the problem is that businesses aren't paying for Y+.

That can be the very thing that get the premium economy sale. I'll give you an example. Say you have company XYZ based in melbourne and they have to send staff to a conference in London. Because times are tough, they have a No International Business Class travel policy for general staff... unless certain conditions are met (say senior management and extremely short stay etc.) Now they are allowed to purchase Full Fare economy though. (say this would be typical of a government department). They were going to fly Emirates or SIA because of the good product... but because Qantas offers them a premium economy option (still techinically an economy seat as far as booking is concerned) they purchase that instead.

This is one of the main reasons why Air NZ, BA, Virgin and QF all call the product Premium Economy. If they gave it some other name and removed it from economy too much, then they would not be able to chase this market.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10844 times:

Are KL making money ?, I thought they were now combined with AF which as a whole lost money in the last quarter.
As to IB, some would suggest that they don't even offer Y, more like Y- A relative who flew with them last month said that the staff treated passengers with contempt (as ever)


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10842 times:

I assume that the European airlines perceived as doing the best at the moment are those with the largest profits (or smallest losses).

If you look at a sample of airlines financial statements you might well find that the relative performances depend on whether they lost or made money (and how much they lost or made) on the fuel hedges they bought.

And fuel prices are still very volatile. They were up over $140 a barrel a year ago. They fell to less than a quarter of this in the spring of 2009. Now they have more than doubled from that low level despite the economic turn down. So there has been plenty of opportunity to buy hedges at high prices in the expectation that prices will go still higher or to buy them at the bottom of the market. And if you halve your fuel bill you are in clover and if you double it you are in trouble.

With current prices over $70 a barrel, goodness knows where fuel prices will go when our economies recover. But then the most successful airline will not be successful because it has or does not have a premium economy class. It will be the one with the best forward fuel contracts.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10809 times:
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Quoting Khobar (Reply 8):
United's idea of premium economy (window seat or bulkhead last I checked)

are you talking about economy plus which is a big part of the front of the Y cabin with 4in more pitch and nothing else.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3671 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

A lot of airlines don't actually sell economy plus seats, they reserve them for upgrades. So of course, that makes it a money loser.

I have yet to fly on an airline where I could actually purchase an economy plus seat. The one airline I actually looked at where I could (and I forget which) had priced it so close to business class as to make the idea of buying one laughable.

Sell the seats and price them properly - a reasonable premium over regular economy - and they will be money makers.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10628 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 8):
Gotta love these studies (they've put most US carriers into bankruptcy). Premium economy has the potential to make the airline money, if they do it right. United's idea of premium economy (window seat or bulkhead last I checked) is a disgrace and should be laughed at. To be fair, their TAtl Y product at one time was comparable to BA's J product of the time g(2001), except for the room, of course. Virgin, on the other hand, did a fair job of it when I tested it in 2006.

What does UA have to do with CX? UA doesn't offer a PREMIUM economy cabin, it's simply an economy seat with extra legroom, and it's billed as such. No special amenities.

Anyway, I'm trying to remember if it was SQ or CX who said they aren't going to do Premium Economy for those reasons. SQ had it for a little while on the A345, so they have experience with it.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10622 times:

The long-haul airlines which don't have a Premium Economy service class are primarily carriers which are frightened of it cannibalising their new grandiose and over-priced Business Class products. Singapore Airlines is a classic example, and they are committing commercial suicide, because they are losing price-sensitive J and undiscounted Y passengers to airlines like BA and Qantas.

At present, Premium Economy is keeping the likes of Virgin Atlantic, Air New Zealand and Qantas as viable carriers.


User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10561 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I think part of the problem is that businesses aren't paying for Y+

A lot of business people are - especially where their firm has downgraded their travel policy and Y+ is called 'premium economy'. There are rules, and inbetween rules!

Quoting Khobar (Reply 8):
Premium economy has the potential to make the airline money, if they do it right.

Absolutely, VS have consistently said that PE is their highest margin cabin ...

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 2):
AF should see a potential in a Y+ product.

Didn't AF announced a premium economy on their long haul fleet recently, coded C38?

Quoting Koruman (Reply 16):
At present, Premium Economy is keeping the likes of Virgin Atlantic, Air New Zealand and Qantas as viable carriers.

I am sure there is some truth in that.


User currently offlineDoug_or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10551 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 13):
A lot of airlines don't actually sell economy plus seats, they reserve them for upgrades. So of course, that makes it a money loser.

Like who?



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10482 times:



Quoting Doug_or (Reply 18):
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 13):
A lot of airlines don't actually sell economy plus seats, they reserve them for upgrades. So of course, that makes it a money loser.

Like who?

The difference between the US, and the rest of the World. As stated premium economy is more than a guaranteed window seat. VS will sell you an exit row seat, that doesn't make it premium economy though.


User currently offlineFlyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 609 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10472 times:

it all boils down to what your Premium economy would be.

Exactly in the middle between the business product and the economy product would be the wrong strategy in my opinion.

However: If they offer a product like 15% more space for 25% more price (or another combination) while service stays economy, then probably the leisure traveler as well as the business traveler (banned from business class per company travel policy) may find it attractive in a huger number.

At least I as a leisure would consider this for my yearly long haul vacation flight, as I would alternatively never pay a 4-5 times higher premium for business. For the company traveler a privately paid upgrade right at the airport could be interesting, especially if a higher status miles benefit would apply too.

I think this kind of thing would work.

In my opinion: the huge crowd in ECO needs something which attracts many and this should be something which is designed for the benefit of both.

Regards

Flyglobal

[Edited 2009-08-14 22:56:12]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27316 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10138 times:

The best PE is BMI , a really good product and really nice seats. on my last two flights I was booked into PE and it was full both ways.

User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10099 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
The best PE is BMI , a really good product and really nice seats. on my last two flights I was booked into PE and it was full both ways.

With BD though, thats there old J seat, so it is better then some long haul J's that are around.


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10044 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 13):
I have yet to fly on an airline where I could actually purchase an economy plus seat. The one airline I actually looked at where I could (and I forget which) had priced it so close to business class as to make the idea of buying one laughable.

Three examples: VS, QF and NZ. You can book Premium Economy seats on these airlines and get the extra amenities associated with the various airlines. I made three "dummy" bookings and the air fares are not really "out there" for premium eco seats. On the 3 carriers that I use as an example, there is a distinct fare difference between Premium Economy and Business Class. Carriers that do not have a distinct fare difference between Premium Eco and Business Class, run the risk of product cannibalization.

IMO SA should install a Premium Economy section on their A340's. Although the "busses" are configured with a supposed 33-34" seat pitch in economy class, it can still get extremely cramped on the real longhaul (±18 hours) routes like JNB-IAD and JNB-JFK. Discounted Business Class seats between South Africa and the USA (on SA) cost more than USD6000.00 return, while eco costs about USD2000 and upwards. That equates to a "sizeable" fare gap which could be nicely filled with passengers that are prepared to pay a premium for more space, but yet can not afford the discounted Biz class fares. Let alone full Biz class fares.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1785 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10002 times:

I think the premise of the OP that the carriers which don't have Y+ are the ones doing the best is a far-reaching conclusion, but nonetheless the topic is good.

My 2 cents are that premium economy is a good idea, but not an all types of routes and with very careful right-sizing as to the number of seats offered. I've flown mostly on BA Y+ transatlantic, and found that their product is worth the money over Y. Yet I've been on many a 747 flight where the Y+ cabin is often at 50% LF when Y is almost at 100%. So assuming that they are getting roughly double fare on each Y+ seat vs. Y, assuming those passengers would have chosen Y over C if Y+ did not exist, and assuming they could sell many more Y seats if they were available, BA is still making the same amount of revenues. So IMO their Y+ cabin is probably about two rows too long.

Recently I heard an interview with the CX CEO, and he said he didn't think premium economy would be a good idea for them. He knows his airline better than any outsider, and in so in their case its probably not a good idea on the A330s and 777s they use on short and medium haul routes like HKG-PVG or even HKG-SYD. But I'd venture to say that it would work well (again with a carefully chosen number of seats) on their more long-haul A436, 773 and 747s where more Y passengers are willing to pay a still affordable amount for more comfort on a tiring route.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3071 posts, RR: 37
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9730 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 13):
A lot of airlines don't actually sell economy plus seats, they reserve them for upgrades. So of course, that makes it a money loser.
I have yet to fly on an airline where I could actually purchase an economy plus seat.

What US airlines call Premium economy is not the same as the rest of the world. On NZ, for example, Premium is a separate cabin, seats have 8" more pitch and 50% more recline and leg/foot rests, and meal service is essentially the same as Business Premier. Cost is typically 30- 50% higher than Y - e.g. YVR-AKL-YVR in November, Y=$1,600, Y+=$2,100, J+=$4,200.

Every time I've flown, Y+ has been full, or close to full. NZ recently doubled the size of the premium cabin/seats on its 772s, which would indicate that Y+ is profitable.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
25 T8KE0FF : VS have a very good PE product and LF's are usually very good.
26 TN486 : IMHO, this is enough reason for any carrier with Ultra long haul to provide Y+. Once this GFC becomes a thing of the past, First and Business will be
27 Airbuseric : I thought you were upgraded to C weren't you?
28 OA260 : LOL... yep unfortunately , but I did take a tour of PE !! And on the return just when I was looking forward to the PE they downgraded me to flatbeds
29 GlobeEx : That surely is not deniable. However, the real question is: Would that really be the case. Again, probably they lose some pax to Qantas and BA, howev
30 Post contains links ClassicLover : I have to agree - my trip report of Qantas Premium Economy from LHR-SYD says so right here. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ums/trip_reports/r
31 MadameConcorde : On long haul United flights all you get in Economy Plus is the extra leg room. Everything else is the same as Economy Minus. Their top tier frequent f
32 OA260 : They used to offer it to all Star Gold's but took it away. Still wasnt that much of a PE service as you say. It was better than being crammed into th
33 Luftfahrer : I can only speak for myself but next time I fly internationally I will try to book a flight on a carrier with an Economy + cabin. Full-fare Business i
34 MadameConcorde : Definitely on all UA long haul flights. Exit row with a window seat in E+ makes it even better other than the fact that it can be freezing cold, espe
35 FlyLKU : Based on my own experience premium economy works. I travel a lot on UA precisely because of Econ Plus. Last year when I had to go to India from the U.
36 OA260 : Really? I have to say I found BMI's flatbeds a bit hard. I think TK's B777 installed by 9W are the most comfortable type.
37 Post contains links LondonCity : Yes. AF will introduce its PE product later this year. It's being branded Premium Voyager. Details here: http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...e-unv
38 ELAL 744 : I like BA's Premium Economy class. I am willing to pay to upgrade certain elements of my flight, namely legroom and a smaller, more private cabin furt
39 SunriseValley : Last time I flew Y+ on NZ LAX-AKL-LAX . The fare was about the same as I was accustomed to paying 5+ years ago for Y class from YYZ -AKL-YYZ. The ext
40 FrmrCAPCADET : Classic seats on most earlier jets, were the 17-18 inch seats and 35-36 inch pitch. Flying was comfortable in Y.
41 Kaiarahi : That surprises me - I've always been served from the Business Premier cart.
42 Ikramerica : And if they had put expensive labels on the bottles, you wouldn't have known the difference (studies show this). It's a shame about the seat width on
43 OA260 : Very true. Alot of the cheaper Wines are beating the expensive ''name'' Wines these days.
44 Theredbaron : I Agree its not worth it and to add insult to injury, the FAs are equally rude. Hence thats why I think it should be not labeled as premium economy.
45 Ikramerica : From many studies it's been shown that while people can easily spot a BAD wine, if the wine is acceptable to the pallet, quality is perceived based o
46 Readytotaxi : Golden Rule number 1 Know what you are paying for. Don't convince yourself that you are going to get something better than what you paid for. Do the r
47 Rongotai : Another consideration for me on NZ is that using my airpoints for a 1 class upgrade from Y+ is the best possible use of airpoint dollars . On AKL-LAX-
48 SpeedyGonzales : Regarding KLM, I know from my father that they have been doing sort-of-Y+ on their 747s already. Occationally to certain destinations only the upper d
49 Post contains links Ikramerica : IT IS NOT LABELED AS PREMIUM ECONOMY. Have you ever flown or booked it? It is called ECONOMY PLUS, and they are quite upfront about what it is. Some
50 Jbernie : I would be more inclined to say that as a normal person who probably may never fly Business class... or at least be able to justify the extra cost of
51 FlyLKU : I agree and the incremental cost is less than the difference in revenue (850 versus 3k) so it should have a much better margin than coach. If you can
52 Coolfish1103 : You don't necessary just remove 2 seats per row if the pitches in Premium Economy is better than Economy. Suppose the pitch for Economy is 32" and Pre
53 Klkla : I personally think some airlines make seating choices to complicated and add unneeded costs to their overall systems. The perfect scenario for interna
54 Vincewy : This quote is dead on. Also as someone said earlier, increase space by 15%, raise prices by 25%. Actually, I'm willing to pay 50% for just 20% more s
55 Post contains links VV701 : They did not report individually with their 1Q report. All it says at: http://www.airfranceklm-finance.com/ is that the combined total fuel hedge los
56 LondonCity : This sounds logical until the flight gets overbooked. Given the enormous gap between today's flat bed J classes and Y class, it makes sense for an ai
57 Klkla : Flights tend to get overbooked in coach. I have never seen this happen in business class or first class, ever (I'm sure it has happened but would be
58 TN486 : That makes 2 of us mate. Now, if QF can sell it to the small business types, how good will that be.
59 Lufthansa : Thats exactly the market. They're are a huge amount of small businesses making between about $80 000 - $150 000 a year in profit. Now after that prof
60 Klkla : OMG... The normal upgradeable fare on a U.S. airline, at least, is around $2,500 for a long haul international flight ... Why would anyone pay $3,000
61 Lufthansa : Okay thats all fine and Dandy, but the likes of BA, Qantas, Singapore Airlines, Etihad, Emirates, Japan Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Air New Zealand
62 Klkla : No reason to doubt what you're saying... All I have to say, though, is God Bless America! I hope I never have to get ripped off at $3,000+ for a glam
63 Lufthansa : Bingo! and that is the very reason the premium economy offerings are working at QF, VS, VA, BA etc, with AF soon to join the club. There is one well
64 Hodja : One thing most posters seem to ignore is that premium economy was created by the airlines for one single reason: It allows them to sell high priced ti
65 Lufthansa : Also... I'd ask you to remember this when you next see USA airline staff... particuarly at regional carriers but through the whole system in general
66 MadameConcorde : I would much rather be up front in a lie flat seat on a United flight using a SystemWide Upgrade than in Economy + it makes a world of difference. Th
67 Jbernie : For those of us who don't fly every day of the year to earn those kind of miles... for those of us who are flying on tickets paid for by us... on vac
68 TN486 : Ladies and Gents, some points need reiterating here: 1. The airlines who have Y+ are ultra long haul and with their Y+ product are shooting for Y pax
69 Kaiarahi : Have you ever actually flown CX, SQ, QF, NZ, MH, EK? Or even LH, AF? There's just no comparison with US airlines business product. Check out the "Fre
70 AirbusA6 : The original question is an interesting one, as my employer shows a typical development. Most of our travel is between London and Boston/NYC, previous
71 PVG : I recently tried the new UA seats. A large improvement over the old product. I don't think that the seat is the issue or IFE etc..., but the "service
72 TN486 : Totally agree, my comment was aimed at the situ that will ensue as the GFC eases and airline travel gets on to an even keel, so to speak.
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