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HP Pre Merger And US Post Merger  
User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 575 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

When I worked for HP during the summer of 05 after another furlough from UA, before the US merger rumours came about, there were a lot of people talking around about expansion. Among the cities for expansion, most being latin and south america, Belize, Caracas, Aruba, Bogota, El Salvador were in there among others. Also, there was talk about trying an eastern hub again, but a more complete hub than what CMH tried to be. What would have come of the expansion? I know a true eastern hub would've done wonders for HP, but I'm no genius. Any thoughts?


On another note, I don't want to start a US bashing sub thread, but is Doug Parker trully running US or is the BOD running the show with DP being the front man to get all the crap? He had his head in the game running HP, but US seems while making forward progress, they take 2 steps back for each move forward. I like Doug as a person and a boss, but it seems to me, most anetters blame him for the shortcomings of the merged company. Any thoughts?


kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3928 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Thread starter):
When I worked for HP during the summer of 05 after another furlough from UA, before the US merger rumours came about, there were a lot of people talking around about expansion. Among the cities for expansion, most being latin and south america, Belize, Caracas, Aruba, Bogota, El Salvador were in there among others. Also, there was talk about trying an eastern hub again, but a more complete hub than what CMH tried to be. What would have come of the expansion? I know a true eastern hub would've done wonders for HP, but I'm no genius. Any thoughts?


On another note, I don't want to start a US bashing sub thread, but is Doug Parker truly running US or is the BOD running the show with DP being the front man to get all the crap? He had his head in the game running HP, but US seems while making forward progress, they take 2 steps back for each move forward. I like Doug as a person and a boss, but it seems to me, most anetters blame him for the shortcomings of the merged company. Any thoughts?

It's always fun to hypothesize about what might've been with airlines, but FWIW, IIRC, HP was running somewhat low on cash at that time and didn't have the money to aggressively pursue anything long-term. BTW, the merger was announced on May 19, 2005, so did you work there in '04?

As for grading Parker's performance in running US Airways, I can say he is the most experienced person US has had running it since Wolf, hands down. His knowledge of airline finance and his ability to put good people in positions of control has been a blessing for US, especially after the debacles with Siegel and Lakefield. That being said, the DL takeover bid was incredibly egocentric and short-sighted, especially with NWA right there for the taking. HP's work from 2002-2004 was incredible and should go down as one of the best quick turnarounds since deregulation. I give Parker a B+ generally, especially given what he has to work with at US East. There probably is not a more militant pilot group around, save AA when the concessions come calling. But that's primarily because they've learned not to trust senior management, period.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3888 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
so did you work there in '04

No sir, started March 05 and left August 05. I didn't want anything to do with IAM and US people.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
especially after the debacles with Siegel and Lakefield

I don't think any of the issues were Bruces fault. He was thrown at the helm of a fast burning and sinking ship and he didn't have any options especially from the work groups.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
That being said, the DL takeover bid was incredibly egocentric and short-sighted, especially with NWA right there for the taking.

I'm not sure that was all Doug, but then again I wasn't there so I can't say for sure. I think as far as fleets went, that may of been an issue, but US/DL long term might have made something of it. One of the merge ideas I was actually in favor of for some odd reason.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
But that's primarily because they've learned not to trust senior management, period.

From my short time at HP was the first time in a long time that I felt comfortable and safe in the hands of the management team, DP and SK are great guys and if US east guys can lighten up a bit, they'll see what DP has to offer, but it won't work if the employee groups keep fighting.



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3860 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 2):
From my short time at HP was the first time in a long time that I felt comfortable and safe in the hands of the management team, DP and SK are great guys and if US east guys can lighten up a bit, they'll see what DP has to offer, but it won't work if the employee groups keep fighting.

They still want every penny back from the FIRST bankruptcy in 2002. I'm afraid they're pretty much impossible to deal with, maybe almost as bad as EA's IAM leadership in the '80s, the only reason the company won't collapse is because the government won't allow it--they're afraid of massive job losses.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3687 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
As for grading Parker's performance in running US Airways, I can say he is the most experienced person US has had running it since Wolf, hands down.

While that may be the case... but I have to say that Parker ran HP much, much better than he is currently managing US at the moment.

Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 2):
I didn't want anything to do with IAM

Wise choice... The IAM is the most incompetent union after AMFA.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4615 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3651 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
As for grading Parker's performance in running US Airways, I can say he is the most experienced person US has had running it since Wolf, hands down. His knowledge of airline finance and his ability to put good people in positions of control has been a blessing for US, especially after the debacles with Siegel and Lakefield.

Lakefield was brought in only to help raise cash for the airline to either fund reorganization or a merger - and the cash went to pay for the merger. Siegel was a waste of space. Wolf wanted UA-lite...but all in all, besides the total crushing the airline employees, he turned the airline around from the mid 90s. He made it a player internationally in the markets they serve, got a much needed fleet renewal and rationalization done, etc. I have read that when the Dynamic Duo were running things....Wolf and Gangwal....Wolf didn't give Gangwal much room to work, and pissed him off and that is why he bolted. I really think Gangwal would have been 100000 times better than Siegel at the helm. Granted Mister Alabama Moneybags was calling the shot back then. Of course there were also Ben Baldanza (sp) and Bruce Ashby who were trying to do their thing, but got crushed. Amazing how well FLL worked out for Spirit when BB could do his thing.

I think when it comes to the current management style, I'll have to go back and research it more. However, right now out of all the top level management (VPs and up) at US...over half of them are former US Airways employees now. I think around merger time, there was a heavy lean towards former America West employees. Now DP is still the one calling the shots, but Lakefield is still co-chairman on the BOD and there is a lot of old US blood back in control. I think it comes down to two different style airlines were merging, and DP tried to make US very HP-like and in the process...pissed all the CP's off and diluted the product even more. I won't be shocked if we see some more movement to a higher cost product to try to woo the passengers that pay the bills (east coast/high yield).


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3535 times:



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 5):
Lakefield was brought in only to help raise cash for the airline to either fund reorganization or a merger - and the cash went to pay for the merger. Siegel was a waste of space. Wolf wanted UA-lite...but all in all, besides the total crushing the airline employees, he turned the airline around from the mid 90s. He made it a player internationally in the markets they serve, got a much needed fleet renewal and rationalization done, etc. I have read that when the Dynamic Duo were running things....Wolf and Gangwal....Wolf didn't give Gangwal much room to work, and pissed him off and that is why he bolted. I really think Gangwal would have been 100000 times better than Siegel at the helm. Granted Mister Alabama Moneybags was calling the shot back then. Of course there were also Ben Baldanza (sp) and Bruce Ashby who were trying to do their thing, but got crushed. Amazing how well FLL worked out for Spirit when BB could do his thing.

As soon as Bronner arrived on property, I immediately became suspicious of his motives. No offense to the people who like executives like Mullin and company--but I hate, absolutely hate, when airlines go outside the business for executive help. Non-airline people tend to make more dumb mistakes than airline people do and can kill your company overnight.

Interesting info on Wolf and Gangwal's relationship, as Gangwal, along with Larry Nagin, US' former general counsel, both worked for Wolf at UA, Nagin coming from Flying Tigers, believe it or not.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3336 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 2):
No sir, started March 05 and left August 05. I didn't want anything to do with IAM and US people

What dept. were you in? UA is IAM represented in C/S and Ramp Svc.

I guess that the US people are glad you left, nice to see what UA did for you.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Wise choice... The IAM is the most incompetent union after AMFA.

All unions have their short comings, but I would hardly call the IAM incompetent.

The US employess were lied to and the IAM was lied to after the first bankruptcy. So naturally we just won't roll over. Tried that and got shafted. Don't bring up EA, because the IAM of today is not the IAM of the 80's.

Later

MD


User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3217 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 7):
What dept. were you in? UA is IAM represented in C/S and Ramp Svc

At PHX and ANC with UA I was cross trained for ramp and csa, at ORD and SEA I was strictly ramp.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 7):
I guess that the US people are glad you left, nice to see what UA did for you.

Actually, I was very well received by HP rampers and had a very strong relationship with all of them that I did work with.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 7):
All unions have their short comings, but I would hardly call the IAM incompetent.

The US employess were lied to and the IAM was lied to after the first bankruptcy. So naturally we just won't roll over. Tried that and got shafted. Don't bring up EA, because the IAM of today is not the IAM of the 80's.

Well, I don't know much about EA and the IAM except what I've read in the book "Frank Lorenzo and the destruction of Eastern", good book by the way. However, from what I took in from that book, it seems like the IAM did what they could to keep FL from taking everything they had, in the end it killed them, but IAM covered employees stuck together unlike they do today. The pilots crossed the line and gave in to FL which may have had a more negative effect on EA than the IAM. On the other, with what the IAM promised us and did for us during bankruptcy, I won't give anymore money to them. But in recent memory, the BK of DL sure looked like the non-union employees came out in better shape than the union employees. However, when our TWU people were mugged by your IAM people trying to work out contractual issues, I don't want anything to do with US and IAM.



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3129 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 8):
However, when our TWU people were mugged by your IAM people trying to work out contractual issues, I don't want anything to do with US and IAM.

Mugged? Please get your facts straight.

Although I do not condone what happened, the HP employees who went to PHL were not in any capacity trying to work out contract issues. These guys basically showed up in PHL and was attempting to dictate what was going to happen whether the IAM liked it or not.

What authority did those employees have to go to PHL in the first place to "work out contractual issues"? Who were they meeting with? Certainly not the IAM leadership! What they did was foolish and were looking for trouble and found it. You act as if it was the IAM leadership attacking the TWU leadership. That is not what happened at all.

MD


User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3123 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 8):
But in recent memory, the BK of DL sure looked like the non-union employees came out in better shape than the union employees

Not sure about that, there are qutie a few unhappy DL rampers from what I hear. Mostly those who have been around a few years and got screwed by DL. I do not work for DL so I admit this is hearsay, but I have not seen anything to have me believe the non-union rampers faired better. I would like a few examples for my curiosity.

MD


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3094 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 10):

Not sure about that, there are qutie a few unhappy DL rampers from what I hear. Mostly those who have been around a few years and got screwed by DL. I do not work for DL so I admit this is hearsay, but I have not seen anything to have me believe the non-union rampers faired better. I would like a few examples for my curiosity.

First off, there aren't very many mainline rampers to begin with. They only work at the hubs and very busy line stations, like ORD and LAX. Most DL stations are handled by Delta Global Services, or Regional Handling Services, their two wholly-owned contract companies.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6531 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3080 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 9):
What they did was foolish and were looking for trouble and found it.

Are you trying to justify physical confrontation? That is sophomoric and never ok, regardless of the reason.


User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3045 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 12):
Are you trying to justify physical confrontation? That is sophomoric and never ok, regardless of the reason

Absolutely not! If you read my post a little closer I specifically state I do not condone what happened. I was merely stating that what the HP rampers did was foolish and they should have known that I was not going to be good. They did not have the authority to do what they did.

Do you think that if a handful of rampers for DL in ATL hopped on a flight to DTW and proceeded to tell the NW ramp how things are going to be after the merger it would have turned out any different? I would hope so, but I would not be so sure about it.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 11):
First off, there aren't very many mainline rampers to begin with. They only work at the hubs and very busy line stations, like ORD and LAX. Most DL stations are handled by Delta Global Services, or Regional Handling Services, their two wholly-owned contract companies

The contact with DL rampers have been here in MSY and ATL, so I cannot accurately speak for other stations.

MD


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3034 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 13):
The contact with DL rampers have been here in MSY and ATL, so I cannot accurately speak for other stations.

MSY is a DGS station, but while ATL has DGS employees, they don't handle DL flights, just other airlines in ATL.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3034 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 11):
. They only work at the hubs and very busy line stations, like ORD and LAX

ORD is actually Aramark.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 9):

Why would IAM leadership apologize for the incident if it didn't happen?



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6531 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3021 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 13):
Do you think that if a handful of rampers for DL in ATL hopped on a flight to DTW and proceeded to tell the NW ramp how things are going to be after the merger it would have turned out any different? I would hope so, but I would not be so sure about it.

I would hope that rampers or any other group at DL and NW would not have to get physical to solve their problems. What does that prove, who is tougher? Very low class to act that way. I don't believe that has happened at any of the res office integrations where the NW employees had to learn a new system, even though many thought it was an inferior system.


User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2975 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 15):
Why would IAM leadership apologize for the incident if it didn't happen?

Because they did not condone it, and after all they were IAM members. I am glad that they WERE IAM members, (read no longer employed at US). I am not saying the incident did not happen, never did, I am saying that your facts are not correct, far from it. You are implying that an incident happened in a way that is not true.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16):
I don't believe that has happened at any of the res office integrations where the NW employees had to learn a new system, even though many thought it was an inferior system.

Bob, not the same senario at all. Are you telling me a handful of DL res. agents on their own traveled to your res center and told you it is my way or else? Or did DL management decide which system to use? Besides the subject at hand was pay, seniority, etc. the matters that are really important to airline employees.

I have been through several mergers and had to adopt many systems I thought to be inferior, not my decision to make. I used the system I was told to use by the company like it or not. But some pee-on agents did not show up at my place of work to tell me basically my way or else. We would have sent them packing, but not by beating the hell out of them.

Are you guys even reading my post, I mean actually reading them? How can I be any more clear? What happened was wrong, both sides acted foolishly. The US employees were terminated, as they should have been. Dont know about the HP employees. The HP employees were not innocent either, but certainly did not deserve what happened to them. They did not have the authority to negotiate anything on behalf of the TWU and the US members did not beat the hell out of them on behalf of the IAM.

MD


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