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Star Members Bumping Heads?  
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8727 times:

I got to thinking about this matter today while I was ready a thread about the US/DL Slot swap. We all know how things got pretty bitter between DL and CO during the last few years, especially up in the NYC area. We are all familiar with the many bilboards of CO saying that they are the true leader in NYC and DL with theirs with such tag lines proclaiming their true dominance through LGA and JFK.

I don't really follow many Star carriers other than UA. With so many, I can only assume that they get into spats every now and then. With the entrance of CO, I have a funny feeling that there will be tension between the two for some reason.


What gets measured gets done.
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4282 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

With respect to competitive issues, alliance members, unless immunized, are expected and required to compete against each other in the marketplace.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8563 times:

Star Alliance or any of the marketing groups really can't be applied domestically. Other
than some limited code sharing, all domestic carriers have to compete.


User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8447 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
We all know how things got pretty bitter between DL and CO during the last few years, especially up in the NYC area. We are all familiar with the many bilboards of CO saying that they are the true leader in NYC and DL with theirs with such tag lines proclaiming their true dominance through LGA and JFK.

That's probably why CO left ST and why they shouldn't have the same issues in Star. Their network fills holes in the US Star network. From what I see, there seems to be little or no overlap in the markets served by the 3 US Star carriers. It seems that CO and UA are either going to merge, or combine their back-office operations to the point where they may technically be separate entities, but are essentially operated as one company. It's a much better fit for CO.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8431 times:



Quoting PVG (Reply 3):
Their network fills holes in the US Star network.

I've never been an expert on the CO route network-- what does it fill? I'm not doubting you, just asking since I have no idea.


User currently offlineGxman From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8308 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 4):
I've never been an expert on the CO route network-- what does it fill? I'm not doubting you, just asking since I have no idea.

New York and the northeast. Continental is also stronger to Europe and Latin America.



Steve
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3635 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8298 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 4):
what does it fill?

Star gets a NYC hub with EWR, and a strong Latin America gateway with IAH. CO can tap into the West Coast hubs, Japan market, stronger European partners, and a better reach into Oceania and African markets.

The one thing I will miss with leaving SkyTeam is KL and connecting through AMS.



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8162 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 6):
The one thing I will miss with leaving SkyTeam is KL and connecting through AMS.

I haven't been to AMS but I just got back from FRA and it seemed like a pretty nice euro-hub and had some very decent connections to Europe,Asia,Africa..


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8141 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 7):

I've always heard AMS to be one of the top airports in Europe; the top for some travelers.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8094 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
With the entrance of CO, I have a funny feeling that there will be tension between the two for some reason.

Maybe US and CO... just a guess, but I think that CO's part in Star is like you said, star carriers have access to a New York Hub and I hope that will bring some star carriers over from JFK  Big grin , due to CO's extensive domestic network to feed some of the flights...

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
I've always heard AMS to be one of the top airports in Europe; the top for some travelers.


Your probably right then, I was just going by my observation of it


User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7455 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 1):
With respect to competitive issues, alliance members, unless immunized, are expected and required to compete against each other in the marketplace.



Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 2):
Star Alliance or any of the marketing groups really can't be applied domestically. Other
than some limited code sharing, all domestic carriers have to compete.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
With the entrance of CO, I have a funny feeling that there will be tension between the two for some reason.

Not in the case of CO and UA. They are not just fellow *A members, but applied for and obtained anti-trust immunity on pricing, scheduling and services.

Furthermore, they also got ATI (same type of immunity) for transatlantic service, which also involves AC and LH.

So CO and UA are working very closely these days in a collaborative way, mostly geared towards generating sinergies that can help both reduce costs without having to merge.

In terms of *A spats, SQ has never been the most enthusiastic member, and for example tends to make it very difficult for FFs of other airlines to claim awards on their metal. In Europe most carriers are owned by LH anyways, so not much turf war going on there, and they have no carriers in Latin America as of now.


User currently offline797charter From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7296 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
I've always heard AMS to be one of the top airports in Europe; the top for some travelers.

I personally prefer Frankfurt at any time.



Keep it clear of the propellers
User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 523 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5297 times:



Quoting OP3000 (Reply 10):
In terms of *A spats, SQ has never been the most enthusiastic member, and for example tends to make it very difficult for FFs of other airlines to claim awards on their metal. In Europe most carriers are owned by LH anyways, so not much turf war going on there, and they have no carriers in Latin America as of now.

I can imagine that being an outstanding (with regards to level of service) member of a network of airlines who run a range (again, with regards to level of service) from LCC (as US has proclaimed its self as) to world class (LH), I can understand why they would feel this way.

Suppose you had a flight from SIN to PHL via LAX, and you had SIN-LAX on SQ, and LAX-PHL on US, the difference in the level of service is remarkable.

Then again, the US carriers do a rather poor job of complimenting the service of the non-us carriers in general, however, I have no idea how many (if any) people complain (or notice).

Before you start, I want to underline the following fact:
NOT EVERYONE IN Y HAS A MEGA DISCOUNTED, RESTRICTED, STAYING-OVER-A-SATURDAY-NIGHT, NON REFUNDABLE, NON-CHANGABLE, BOOKED 21 DAYS-IN-ADVANCE, 6 DAY MINIMUM-21 DAY MAXIMUM STAY TICKET!!!!.



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1962 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5238 times:



Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 12):
Then again, the US carriers do a rather poor job of complimenting the service of the non-us carriers in general, however, I have no idea how many (if any) people complain (or notice).

Anyone trying to offer the same level of service found on LH or SQ on a domestic flight in the United States will be out of business within a year. Passengers have shown, time and again, that they will not pay extra for those service levels on domestic flights.


User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4984 times:



Quoting OP3000 (Reply 10):

In terms of *A spats, SQ has never been the most enthusiastic member, and for example tends to make it very difficult for FFs of other airlines to claim awards on their metal. In Europe most carriers are owned by LH anyways, so not much turf war going on there, and they have no carriers in Latin America as of now.



Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 12):

Then again, the US carriers do a rather poor job of complimenting the service of the non-us carriers in general, however, I have no idea how many (if any) people complain (or notice).

I agree and its obvious that there is a huge level of service difference between US Airways or UA and an SQ, and I was in no way implying that SQ did not have the right or should not make it harder for other *A FFs to claim.

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 12):

Before you start, I want to underline the following fact:
NOT EVERYONE IN Y HAS A MEGA DISCOUNTED, RESTRICTED, STAYING-OVER-A-SATURDAY-NIGHT, NON REFUNDABLE, NON-CHANGABLE, BOOKED 21 DAYS-IN-ADVANCE, 6 DAY MINIMUM-21 DAY MAXIMUM STAY TICKET!!!!.

"Before you start" what? Next time you might not want to assume that just because someone on here has American flag next to their name they are senselessly trying to say US carriers are the best. And last time I checked we can all still read just fine without the capitalized sentences.


User currently offlineMdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

Conflicts between *A members had happened in a big way before. SQ and CA squared up to buy a stake in MU back in 2007-Jan 2008 and that was a big news back then, the rest is history of course (and it is a fitting time to bring this thread up again with the CA/CX news today). I am not sure what the relationship is like now between SQ/CA, certainly not partners from what it looks like.

It is also quite surprising about the (lack) of co-ordinations among *A that happened sometimes. For example, I remember when *A announced the signing of AI into the alliance. Just a short while after that, UA announced that they were codesharing + forging mileage alliance with 9W. What should AI do now - code share with non-*A airlines?


User currently offlineOhsopc From Thailand, joined Jul 2006, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

now that US has swapped spot with DL, wouldn't they be now competing directly with UA in the Washington D.C. area?

User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4420 times:



Quoting Ohsopc (Reply 16):
now that US has swapped spot with DL, wouldn't they be now competing directly with UA in the Washington D.C. area?

They always have been - US is big at DCA, UA has the hub at IAD. The DC overlap was the single largest reason the US government rejected the US/UA merger proposal back in 2000.

I'm not entirely convinced Star Alliance needs US, UA, and CO, and still suspect US could find itself "odd man out" at some point, just as CO was in SkyTeam.


User currently offlineDELTA7478 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4034 times:



Quoting Gxman (Reply 5):

New York and the northeast. Continental is also stronger to Europe and Latin America.

That's actually wrong, DELTA flies to more city's in Europe and and south America, go to Delta.com and CO.com to get your info.


User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3785 times:



Quoting DELTA7478 (Reply 18):
New York and the northeast. Continental is also stronger to Europe and Latin America.

That's actually wrong, DELTA flies to more city's in Europe and and south America, go to Delta.com and CO.com to get your info.

I don't believe that he was saying that CO flies to the most destinations in Europe, but that is one of their strong points, same as in South America is another strong point in CO's route network...


User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3720 times:



Quoting DELTA7478 (Reply 18):
That's actually wrong, DELTA flies to more cities in Europe and and South America, go to Delta.com and CO.com to get your info.

I believe the question was what will the CO route network fill for STAR, not Skyteam.

And the answer is correct - in the US, CO fills out Star in New York City, as UA is a non-player in the New York market and US only has domestic flights and a lot of gaps in coverage even within the US. Before CO, Star is the weakest player in the NYC market. With CO, they're competitive. And CO makes Star much stronger to Central and South America as well.


User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 523 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2730 times:



Quoting OP3000 (Reply 14):
"Before you start" what? Next time you might not want to assume that just because someone on here has American flag next to their name they are senselessly trying to say US carriers are the best. And last time I checked we can all still read just fine without the capitalized sentences.

My apologies for the way that came accross, that was not intended to be directed at you. The intention was directed at the A netters out there who decide that by virtue of an Economy Class booking that individuals automatically are flying for next to nothing (at a net cost to the airline), and such passengers have no ground to complain about the meager service offered by the carrier (namely most US carriers).

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 14):
I agree and its obvious that there is a huge level of service difference between US Airways or UA and an SQ, and I was in no way implying that SQ did not have the right or should not make it harder for other *A FFs to claim.

I would not consider it a problem of SQ making it harder for other *A customers to get award tickets, rather, I would say that it is reasonable that SQ give preference to their own loyal clients to the reward tickets, and the other system partners would fall in thereafter.

To all, Sorry for the caps in my disclamer. I hope you were not offended too much.

Tom



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2675 times:



Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 20):
I believe the question was what will the CO route network fill for STAR, not Skyteam.

And the answer is correct - in the US, CO fills out Star in New York City, as UA is a non-player in the New York market and US only has domestic flights and a lot of gaps in coverage even within the US. Before CO, Star is the weakest player in the NYC market. With CO, they're competitive. And CO makes Star much stronger to Central and South America as well.

Yes that was my original question, although I was thinking more domestically since I am less clear about where's CO's strengths are in that regard. As far as I see it, they have NE/Mid-Atlantic covered with EWR (backing up US's strength in the NE), west of the Alleghanies into the Midwest from CLE (altho it seems far enough East that it's probably not ideal for true Midwest service, but once in *A thats moot with ORD, and south central/possibly interior SW/western deep south (MS, AL, LA) from IAH to complement CLT which can cover NC, SC, TN, GA. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2459 times:

Some interesting comments. With these alliances, there always seems to be the one red headed step child or the odd man out. I'm being rubbed that US will fall into this category. Again, CO and US does not compete much in most of their markets so no foul there.

Any takers that they may migrate to Skyteam...or better yet, One World?



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCOflyerBOS From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

CO brings a TON to the table. EWR offers a hub in the nation's largest and richest city. IAH offers a hub in a very lucrative market (energy travel). CO also fills a huge void created by Mexicana's absence. IAH is essentially a Mexican hub!

The Boston Business Journal just released stats showing how urban areas fared with regards to total personal income earned (salaries, dividends, stock options, etc...) in 2007. NYC came in first with $1,031,000,000 earned by her residents. Houston came in fifth with $276,400,000 earned by Houstonians. In fact, Star Alliance will have hubs in EWR (#1 in TPI), Chicago (#3), Washington (#4), Houston (#5), Philly (#6), and San Fran-Oakland (#8). One World counters that with hubs in Chicago (#3), DFW (#7) and Miami (#10). Sky Team doesn't have a true hub in any of the top ten TPI markets (Atlanta comes in at #11 some $34 million shy of Miami).


25 ExFATboy : Wow, lots of variables and considerations here. Looking at US' role in Star: Pluses: * CLT is Star's only southeastern hub * while UA has DEN and SFO
26 FlyASAGuy2005 : Now that they way you put it as far as Skyteam goes, I also rule them out as well as them going at it alone. I understand you don't need to be in an
27 Aerecosse : Not been to AMS but FRA was extremely dissapointing... grey & yellow..... and miles & more grey & yellow.... I wonder who's hub it could be...... hmm
28 ExFATboy : That should be PHX, of course...and a typo in the same phrase? I just can't type today!
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